Has anyone tried Nancy Silverton's starter from "Breads from the La Brea
Bakery." The one where she uses grapes as a starter?

Dee

Dee Randall wrote:

> Has anyone tried Nancy Silverton's starter from "Breads from the La Brea
> Bakery." The one where she uses grapes as a starter?

I did, and I found I ended up with a large amount of starter with
no added benefit. I've also done starters with and without grapes and I
found them unnecessary. I now use plain ol' whole wheat flour and water
and get just as good a result.

You have to admire Nancy though, she's a bread maniac. Who'd have thought
of bringing your starter to work with you like she suggests? Plus
I love some of her recipes.

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com

Do you go thru the week-long process using whole-wheat flour and water for
your starter?

Do you use your starter in the recipes that she has in her book?

Thanks,
dee

"Reg" > wrote in message
m...
> Dee Randall wrote:
>
> > Has anyone tried Nancy Silverton's starter from "Breads from the La Brea
> > Bakery." The one where she uses grapes as a starter?
>
> I did, and I found I ended up with a large amount of starter with
> no added benefit. I've also done starters with and without grapes and I
> found them unnecessary. I now use plain ol' whole wheat flour and water
> and get just as good a result.
>
> You have to admire Nancy though, she's a bread maniac. Who'd have thought
> of bringing your starter to work with you like she suggests? Plus
> I love some of her recipes.
>
> --
> Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com
>

NS's SD baloney and other's - one's using baker's yeast, other
hullabaloo and, in particular discouragings like "get an established one
first, don't try" on this forum was one major reason for me to think
there is a simpler way and put it on the web.

You can do it for entertainment and party talk, but watch out to whom
you talk, if you bump into somebody who knows his SD stuff - can get
frustrative: What? You were doing this? Unbelievably <withheld>!

Bringing decent bread to potluck's made with your own rye starter
without grapes and yeast gives you a better foundation.


Samartha


Dee Randall wrote:
>
> Has anyone tried Nancy Silverton's starter from "Breads from the La Brea
> Bakery." The one where she uses grapes as a starter?
>
> Dee

--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/

Dee Randall wrote:

> Do you go thru the week-long process using whole-wheat flour and water for
> your starter?

Days 1 - 5 use whole wheat, switching to white thereafter.

> Do you use your starter in the recipes that she has in her book?

Yes, and the results are identical.

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com

"Dee Randall" > wrote in message
...
> Has anyone tried Nancy Silverton's starter from "Breads from the La Brea
> Bakery." The one where she uses grapes as a starter?
>
> Dee
>

A friend of mine did the Silverton starter -- the whole process and then
when she had it well established, she dried some and sent it to me.

I've been using that starter for 3 years now and it makes good bread. It
happens to be real temperature sensitive so I have had to learn to adapt my
proceudres depending on the season -- don't know if that's characteristic of
this particular jar of starter or all starters, this is the only one I
maintain... The family and neighbors particularly like the rosemary olive
oil boules and that is what I mostly make.

I also like the cinnamon raisin bread altho I make that infrequently because
it drags out over 3 days, has amazing amounts of butter in it, is slightly
too large for my mixer which means it's always trying to escape and then we
all sit down and eat the whole recipe in about 24 hours. I use about 1/3
dried necatarines and the rest raisins -- the nectarines give it an
interesting zip. I tried it with apricots and raisins but liked the
nectarines better. Of course now that I have written this I am going to have
to go make the bread :-)

Ellen

On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 22:47:00 -0500, Dee Randall wrote:

> Has anyone tried Nancy Silverton's starter from "Breads from the La Brea
> Bakery." The one where she uses grapes as a starter?

I have -- twice, and it worked both times. (I have no idea why I did it
twice; it just seemed like a good idea at the time.) I've also done it
twice (this time was to try to understand the process a little better)
with whole-wheat flour.

I don't recommend the 15-day Silverton grape starter. It is a horrible
mess to take care of, produces a vat of waste, and is just generally a
nuisance. The whole-wheat starter I made was just as nice as the grape
starter: taste and rise were not discriminable from the grape batch. (I
got the idea for the whole-wheat starter from this newsgroup, and have
since come to believe that the grapes don't do anything: the yeasts are on
the flour you mix in with the grapes. But I could be wrong...) And the
smell of the fermenting grapes that gets released when you open it to feed
it isn't something your spouse or housemates (unless they're also bread
people) are going to much appreciate. Pretty nasty.

At one time I had 5 different cultures going and was comparing
them; the fifth was Carl's, which is also superb and the easiest to get
going of the lot, but if you want to grow your own, go with the
whole-wheat method. I got an old half-pint soft-butter container, poked
a few holes in the top, inserted about 2 ounces of a coarse whole wheat
(KA) and 2 ounces of water, and let it sit in a warm spot for about a
week, just peeking at it from time to time to make sure no mold was
growing on the sides of the container or that it was getting dry. Then I
took a spoonful of that out, and started feeding it regular bread flour.
Easy as pie. (Contrast this with a gallon-sized jug of fairly putrid
grape/flour/water mix.)

Now my starter (the starter I believe I will have in my fridge when I die)
is a combination of all of them. I decided to do a Darwinian experiment,
and I mixed a small amount of each of the five cultures together (taking
care of 5 different cultures was just way too much work and wasn't useful
for anything other than then experimentation I did), thinking that the
best yeasts would survive. Now I get good breads (although with the pain
au levain I'm not getting the oven spring I'd like -- but see earlier
thread on that). My best compliment was from a friend from Poland who
said that my breads remind her of home when she was a little girl. I
regularly give her breads because I like the praise.

m

<snip>Carl's, which is also superb and the easiest to get
going of the lot, but if you want to grow your own, go with the
whole-wheat method <snip>

I've only tried one or two sour dough starters and that was years ago; one
was NS's grape starter and another was one I don't remember. I'd like to
try again, but at the moment as I can't get any 'pesticide-free grapes' and
I would like to do a starter -- something easy as you say -- that if it
fails, I haven't invested too many gray hairs in and I can try, try again.

Do you have some instructions that they could "cut and paste" for me to get
me going? For either "Carl's easy recipe" or the whole-wheat method?

Oh, boy!
Thanks.
dee





"Marc Carter" > wrote in message
newsan.2004.01.07.12.07.33.809423@speakMUNGEeasy .net...
> On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 22:47:00 -0500, Dee Randall wrote:
>
> > Has anyone tried Nancy Silverton's starter from "Breads from the La Brea
> > Bakery." The one where she uses grapes as a starter?
>
> I have -- twice, and it worked both times. (I have no idea why I did it
> twice; it just seemed like a good idea at the time.) I've also done it
> twice (this time was to try to understand the process a little better)
> with whole-wheat flour.
>
> I don't recommend the 15-day Silverton grape starter. It is a horrible
> mess to take care of, produces a vat of waste, and is just generally a
> nuisance. The whole-wheat starter I made was just as nice as the grape
> starter: taste and rise were not discriminable from the grape batch. (I
> got the idea for the whole-wheat starter from this newsgroup, and have
> since come to believe that the grapes don't do anything: the yeasts are on
> the flour you mix in with the grapes. But I could be wrong...) And the
> smell of the fermenting grapes that gets released when you open it to feed
> it isn't something your spouse or housemates (unless they're also bread
> people) are going to much appreciate. Pretty nasty.
>
> At one time I had 5 different cultures going and was comparing
> them; the fifth was Carl's, which is also superb and the easiest to get
> going of the lot, but if you want to grow your own, go with the
> whole-wheat method. I got an old half-pint soft-butter container, poked
> a few holes in the top, inserted about 2 ounces of a coarse whole wheat
> (KA) and 2 ounces of water, and let it sit in a warm spot for about a
> week, just peeking at it from time to time to make sure no mold was
> growing on the sides of the container or that it was getting dry. Then I
> took a spoonful of that out, and started feeding it regular bread flour.
> Easy as pie. (Contrast this with a gallon-sized jug of fairly putrid
> grape/flour/water mix.)
>
> Now my starter (the starter I believe I will have in my fridge when I die)
> is a combination of all of them. I decided to do a Darwinian experiment,
> and I mixed a small amount of each of the five cultures together (taking
> care of 5 different cultures was just way too much work and wasn't useful
> for anything other than then experimentation I did), thinking that the
> best yeasts would survive. Now I get good breads (although with the pain
> au levain I'm not getting the oven spring I'd like -- but see earlier
> thread on that). My best compliment was from a friend from Poland who
> said that my breads remind her of home when she was a little girl. I
> regularly give her breads because I like the praise.
>
> m

On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 09:20:55 -0500, Dee Randall wrote:

> <snip>Carl's, which is also superb and the easiest to get
> going of the lot, but if you want to grow your own, go with the
> whole-wheat method <snip>
>
> I've only tried one or two sour dough starters and that was years ago; one
> was NS's grape starter and another was one I don't remember. I'd like to
> try again, but at the moment as I can't get any 'pesticide-free grapes' and
> I would like to do a starter -- something easy as you say -- that if it
> fails, I haven't invested too many gray hairs in and I can try, try again.
>
> Do you have some instructions that they could "cut and paste" for me to get
> me going? For either "Carl's easy recipe" or the whole-wheat method?
>

Gosh, I just got the instructions from a poster on this group (but I don't
remember who it was), so maybe he or she will write, also. But what I
did is this:

Get a small plastic container that has a lid you don't mind
sacrificing. Poke 6 or 8 small holes in the lid. Put in one ounce of
whole-wheat flour (I use King Arthur) and two ounces of water, maybe
more -- this you want to be pretty runny, rather than doughy, and
whole-wheat can really suck up the moisture. (You can do two ounces of
flour and four ounces of water, and so on, if you want: Nancy Silverton
maintains that it's easier to take care of large batches than small ones,
but I haven't found this to be necessary. The idea is that you want here
about a 1 flour : 2 water ratio so that it's runny.)

Then you put the lid on it, and put it somewhere the temp is going to stay
above 70 (they say 75 or 78 is better, but don't quote me on that because
I cannot remember who "they" are...). I'd check it every other day to see
what's happening; it will first do nothing, and then you'll start to
notice bubbles. At that point, feed it one part flour and one part water.
Wait another couple of days, then take a spoonful of this out and put in
a new container, add one part flour (here I'd switch to regular bread
flour) and one part water. Watch this for a while -- maybe 8 hours at room
temp (don't throw away the other until you see what the culture you're
making is going to do) -- and look for activity. That should do it. Then
you put this on a regular schedule of feeding until you have a lively
starter.

When I'm in bread-frenzy mode I leave it on the counter and feed it
regularly, taking out what I need to make breads. Lately I've been using
a different technique and not using regular starter as much, so I tend to
keep it in the fridge and take it out on the weekend for two days of
feeding, then put it back during the week. That keeps it alive and
healthy. When you're ready to bake with it, take a couple of spoonfuls
from the fridge and put them in a container, feed it equal parts water and
flour, and wait. It's usually ready to use (depending on the temp in the
house) after a day or day and a half of feeding.

But: the other poster (the person to whom I am grateful for telling me
about this) may have a more detailed recipe. I just tried this, and it
worked.

The Carl's starter comes with instructions, which are chiefly to add water
to it and wait for activity, then start feeding it. I think in my case it
took about 4 hours before it looked alive.


The thing that some people find tricky is keeping the starter healthy. I
haven't had trouble with that. When I'm feeding it, I feed it it's own
weight in flour + water for a four hour cycle; if I'm going to be gone at
work or somewhere longer, I feed it more and just sort of watch it to see
when it looks like it's time to feed it. Avoid mold (black, easy to spot,
and easily spooned out or scraped off the container wall), but this only
happened to me once when I was growing a starter from the whole-wheat
flour.

> Oh, boy!
> Thanks.

Have fun!

m

Thanks Marc,
although you took so much time and it is appreciated to write this long
instructions, it really helps, but iIt's a scarey proposition -- why is
that? One can always start over. The thing is if I do get it going, I'm a
scaredy-cat about when to feed, how much to take out, how much to add back
and what recipes do I use it in --

just when a recipe calls for so much starter and you use that much, say, 1
cup of starter, how do you know how much dry+wet ingredients to return to
the pot.

Do you use this starter ANY time a recipe calls for a starter?


Dee

"Marc Carter" > wrote in message
newsan.2004.01.07.15.08.19.792604@speakMUNGEeasy .net...
> On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 09:20:55 -0500, Dee Randall wrote:
>
> > <snip>Carl's, which is also superb and the easiest to get
> > going of the lot, but if you want to grow your own, go with the
> > whole-wheat method <snip>
> >
> > I've only tried one or two sour dough starters and that was years ago;
one
> > was NS's grape starter and another was one I don't remember. I'd like
to
> > try again, but at the moment as I can't get any 'pesticide-free grapes'
and
> > I would like to do a starter -- something easy as you say -- that if it
> > fails, I haven't invested too many gray hairs in and I can try, try
again.
> >
> > Do you have some instructions that they could "cut and paste" for me to
get
> > me going? For either "Carl's easy recipe" or the whole-wheat method?
> >
>
> Gosh, I just got the instructions from a poster on this group (but I don't
> remember who it was), so maybe he or she will write, also. But what I
> did is this:
>
> Get a small plastic container that has a lid you don't mind
> sacrificing. Poke 6 or 8 small holes in the lid. Put in one ounce of
> whole-wheat flour (I use King Arthur) and two ounces of water, maybe
> more -- this you want to be pretty runny, rather than doughy, and
> whole-wheat can really suck up the moisture. (You can do two ounces of
> flour and four ounces of water, and so on, if you want: Nancy Silverton
> maintains that it's easier to take care of large batches than small ones,
> but I haven't found this to be necessary. The idea is that you want here
> about a 1 flour : 2 water ratio so that it's runny.)
>
> Then you put the lid on it, and put it somewhere the temp is going to stay
> above 70 (they say 75 or 78 is better, but don't quote me on that because
> I cannot remember who "they" are...). I'd check it every other day to see
> what's happening; it will first do nothing, and then you'll start to
> notice bubbles. At that point, feed it one part flour and one part water.
> Wait another couple of days, then take a spoonful of this out and put in
> a new container, add one part flour (here I'd switch to regular bread
> flour) and one part water. Watch this for a while -- maybe 8 hours at room
> temp (don't throw away the other until you see what the culture you're
> making is going to do) -- and look for activity. That should do it. Then
> you put this on a regular schedule of feeding until you have a lively
> starter.
>
> When I'm in bread-frenzy mode I leave it on the counter and feed it
> regularly, taking out what I need to make breads. Lately I've been using
> a different technique and not using regular starter as much, so I tend to
> keep it in the fridge and take it out on the weekend for two days of
> feeding, then put it back during the week. That keeps it alive and
> healthy. When you're ready to bake with it, take a couple of spoonfuls
> from the fridge and put them in a container, feed it equal parts water and
> flour, and wait. It's usually ready to use (depending on the temp in the
> house) after a day or day and a half of feeding.
>
> But: the other poster (the person to whom I am grateful for telling me
> about this) may have a more detailed recipe. I just tried this, and it
> worked.
>
> The Carl's starter comes with instructions, which are chiefly to add water
> to it and wait for activity, then start feeding it. I think in my case it
> took about 4 hours before it looked alive.
>
>
> The thing that some people find tricky is keeping the starter healthy. I
> haven't had trouble with that. When I'm feeding it, I feed it it's own
> weight in flour + water for a four hour cycle; if I'm going to be gone at
> work or somewhere longer, I feed it more and just sort of watch it to see
> when it looks like it's time to feed it. Avoid mold (black, easy to spot,
> and easily spooned out or scraped off the container wall), but this only
> happened to me once when I was growing a starter from the whole-wheat
> flour.
>
> > Oh, boy!
> > Thanks.
>
> Have fun!
>
> m

In article >,
"Dee Randall" > wrote:

> Has anyone tried Nancy Silverton's starter from "Breads from the La Brea
> Bakery." The one where she uses grapes as a starter?
>
> Dee
>
>
>

I have some of this kind of starter. I took a bread class from a baker
who is a student/fan/idol worshipper of Nancy Silverton. She had gone
thorough the whole grape process and after our baking class gave us each
a container of her starter.

I like it. It's very active, resurects itself after months of neglect
in the back of the fridge, raises bread quite well and has a great
flavor.

I have the La Brea book and I like the recipes ( and LOVE the onion
rings), but I do cut her starter maintenance amounts way down or I am
swimming in starter and tossing huge amounts of excess starter down the
drain.

You might google old messages in this group on starter maintenance.
There have been some great posts on maintaining smaller amounts of
starter to limit the waste factor in methods like Nancy Silvertons.

There is also quite the hue and cry around here regarding the necessity
of using grapes a la Nancy or apples a la Joe Ortiz or other fruits a la
other professional bakers. Many people here have good success with
starters that don't use any sort of fruit. It is a topic that produces
some heated posts, so be prepared ;-)

marcella

On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 17:19:06 GMT, Marcella Tracy Peek
> wrote:

>There is also quite the hue and cry around here regarding the necessity
>of using grapes a la Nancy or apples a la Joe Ortiz or other fruits a la
>other professional bakers. Many people here have good success with
>starters that don't use any sort of fruit. It is a topic that produces
>some heated posts, so be prepared ;-)

Hi Marcella,

What you say is true, but the science on this issue is good...

The critters that grow on the fruit cannot survive when fed only flour
and water. As a result, it is better to simply eat the fruit before
making the starter <g>.

(Just as an aside: When I first read the NS book, I was really
perplexed by certain things she wrote. It was not that I disagreed,
but simply that I could not interpret her instructions about various
aspects of her descriptions. Eventually, I decided to call the bakery.
A nice woman answered, we chatted for a while, and she eventually said
"Well, the only one who can answer those questions would be Nancy...
Call this number." I did, and reached another nice woman who turned
out to be Nancy. We talked for about forty minutes, and she was most
generous with her time and humor. We laughed about the oceans of
starter problem (and a few other things as well.) Nice person. Nice
book.)

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Marcella Tracy Peek" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
>
> I have the La Brea book and I like the recipes ( and LOVE the onion
> rings), but I do cut her starter maintenance amounts way down or I am
> swimming in starter and tossing huge amounts of excess starter down the
> drain.
>

Well I just got real lazy at some point and simplified the process of
refresh and save. I keep about a scant 1C of starter in a jar in the frig.
To revive, I stir it up and dump out most of it into a bowl and add 1C water
and a "heavy" cup of flour and mix it in, cover and let stand. I put the
starter jar with the little bit in the bottom back into the frig in case of
some disaster happening to the starter that is refeshing on the countertop.

When the refreshed starter has become active, I take what I need for the
recipe and then wash the jar that's been in the frig and dump in whatever I
didn;t need for the recipe I am making -- and that usually comes out to be
more or less 1C. If I am making more than one recipe or if the starter has
been sitting ignored in the frig for weeks and weeks then I would go thru 2
refresh cycles but using less of what was in the jar in the first cycle so I
am not afloat in starter :-)

Either I have a very undemanding starter or it has adapted to cycles of lots
of use and then lots of being ignored :-)

I will have to try the onion rings -- thanks!

Ellen

Marcella Tracy Peek > wrote:
>There is also quite the hue and cry around here regarding the
necessity
>of using grapes a la Nancy or apples a la Joe Ortiz or other
fruits a la
>other professional bakers. Many people here have good success
with
>starters that don't use any sort of fruit. It is a topic that
produces
>some heated posts, so be prepared ;-)

Yeast spores float around in the air everywhere. It is natures
way of recycling. The type of spore you find in an area will be
there because it is best suited to that area. The particular
spore you find on fruit is there because it survives best there.
The trick is to find a good one and develop it into your starter.
Too simple? Perhaps, but it is no mystery.
Ernie

On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 12:43:25 -0500, Kenneth
> wrote:

....

>(Just as an aside: When I first read the NS book, I was really
>perplexed by certain things she wrote. It was not that I disagreed,
>but simply that I could not interpret her instructions about various
>aspects of her descriptions. Eventually, I decided to call the bakery.
>A nice woman answered, we chatted for a while, and she eventually said
>"Well, the only one who can answer those questions would be Nancy...
>Call this number." I did, and reached another nice woman who turned
>out to be Nancy. We talked for about forty minutes, and she was most
>generous with her time and humor. We laughed about the oceans of
>starter problem (and a few other things as well.) Nice person. Nice
>book.)
>
>All the best,

Good story! When she was on one of Julia Child's programs,
http://www.pbs.org/juliachild/meet/silverton.html#
she demonstrated making her olive bread and said she had learned to
knead with one hand so she could keep one hand clean and free in case
something important came up, like answering the telephone. :-)

David

On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 11:02:39 -0500, Dee Randall wrote:

> Thanks Marc,
> although you took so much time and it is appreciated to write this long
> instructions, it really helps, but iIt's a scarey proposition -- why is
> that? One can always start over. The thing is if I do get it going, I'm a
> scaredy-cat about when to feed, how much to take out, how much to add back
> and what recipes do I use it in --

Aw, just try. A lot I learned by failing. E.g., when I was first
starting I pretty much killed my starter by overfeeding/diluting it, and
just learned by trial and error what it looks like when it's happy, what
it looks like when it's ready to be bread. To get a whole-wheat starter
going it's going to cost you a grand total of about 4 ounces of flour and
a little more than that of water, and perhaps (altogether) 3 hours of
time, all spread over the course of a week. I'd give it a shot were I
you; you might be surprised.

> just when a recipe calls for so much starter and you use that much, say, 1
> cup of starter, how do you know how much dry+wet ingredients to return to
> the pot.

Just put enough back that you can get another culture going in time to
make bread when you want to. It could be a teaspoon, it could be a cup, it
could be a quart. You're going to see right away that the process of
maintaining a starter, if you don't bake a *lot* of bread, is going to
produce enough starter for you to save as much as you want (and give away
tons, and throw away tons). Depending on your feeding schedule, you can
get gallons of the stuff in a few days: yeasts bud fairly frantically and
can eat a lot. I used to do a
four-hour-add-the-starter's-weight-in-flour+water (thus doubling it each
time I fed it), and this would mean throwing away literally (over the
course of a year, say), hundreds of pounds of the stuff. Now I feed it on
about a 12 hour schedule, and each time start with about three tablespoons
of starter. I still wind up throwing away a lot. Keeping enough
back isn't likely to be a problem.

> Do you use this starter ANY time a recipe calls for a starter?

So far, yes. I take it (in my voluminous experience, which is all of
about 24 months) that "starter" means yeast, lactobacilli, water and
flour. If you do the whole-wheat thing we're talking about, that's
exactly what you'll have.

m

On 6 Jan 2004 at 23:24, Samartha Deva wrote:

> NS's SD baloney and other's - one's using baker's yeast, other
> hullabaloo and, in particular discouragings like "get an established
> one first, don't try" on this forum was one major reason for me to
> think there is a simpler way and put it on the web.

Like you, I have a web site, and I have a decent set of instructions on starting a starter.
In all honesty, I like your instructions better. One of these days, I may ask permission
to just use your instructions.

But... most of the angry email I get relates to people who have problems starting a
starter. The problems are inevitably one, or more, of the following...

1. I've never baked before and I don't know what the heck I'm doing

2. I've never done sourdough before and have no idea what a good starter looks or
smells like.

3. I am congenitally incapable of reading and following instructions.

My feeling is that starting a starter isn't a big deal. But, if you're just learning to deal
with sourdough, especially if you're just starting to bake, starting a new starter just adds
one more bit of complexity to the learning process. The beginner has a flat loaf of
bread. Why? Is it the new starter? Is it a lack of understanding of how to bake bread?
No understanding of mixing and kneading? And on and on and on.... so, my advice is,
get a good starter. Learn how to bake. If you still want to start your own starter, then
knock yourself out...

Mike
--
Mike Avery

ICQ: 16241692 AOL IM:MAvery81230
Phone: 970-642-0280
* Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other
way *

A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day:
Desqview vs. Windows is a no-Win situation.

"Mike Avery" > wrote in message =
news:mailman.34.1073529797.204.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com...

> ... so, my advice is, get a good starter ...

Well, you know, Mike, if everybody did that, there would be a lot
less to talk about at r.f.s.

I'd like to comment about instructions for sourdough starter. I have made
bread for a good many years, have tried NS's grape starter a number of years
ago (twice) and Ortiz' starter once. They weren't successful more me (even
tho I lived in San Francisco <grin>), but I've decided to give it a go
again, living here on the east coast now.

I've done a bit of reading too about this subject, but there is always that
illusive question not precisely (I know, there are no precise answers)
answered about feeding a starter. I just got thru reading one of the
poster's sites where it was giving instructions, and even though one would
think it is clear it is just not clear to me, a novice.

These are the questions that I just can't get a handle on from anyone.

Please tell me where I'm wrong and give me some advice if you will --
greatly appreciated.

One has a pot of starter in the refrigerator.

One takes it out and lets it warm up.

One uses it in a recipe before refreshing it?

One uses it in a recipe after warming it up and refreshing it?

One takes out a cup for saving before refreshing or not refreshing and
making the recipe?

One refreshes the saved cup of starter after using it in the recipe?

How much flour and water is normally added to the saved cup? Will this be
enough for another recipe?

These may seem simple -- but=-===

Thanks - many thanks,
Dee






"Mike Avery" > wrote in message
news:mailman.34.1073529797.204.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com...
> On 6 Jan 2004 at 23:24, Samartha Deva wrote:
>
> > NS's SD baloney and other's - one's using baker's yeast, other
> > hullabaloo and, in particular discouragings like "get an established
> > one first, don't try" on this forum was one major reason for me to
> > think there is a simpler way and put it on the web.
>
> Like you, I have a web site, and I have a decent set of instructions on
starting a starter.
> In all honesty, I like your instructions better. One of these days, I may
ask permission
> to just use your instructions.
>
> But... most of the angry email I get relates to people who have problems
starting a
> starter. The problems are inevitably one, or more, of the following...
>
> 1. I've never baked before and I don't know what the heck I'm doing
>
> 2. I've never done sourdough before and have no idea what a good starter
looks or
> smells like.
>
> 3. I am congenitally incapable of reading and following instructions.
>
> My feeling is that starting a starter isn't a big deal. But, if you're
just learning to deal
> with sourdough, especially if you're just starting to bake, starting a new
starter just adds
> one more bit of complexity to the learning process. The beginner has a
flat loaf of
> bread. Why? Is it the new starter? Is it a lack of understanding of how
to bake bread?
> No understanding of mixing and kneading? And on and on and on.... so, my
advice is,
> get a good starter. Learn how to bake. If you still want to start your
own starter, then
> knock yourself out...
>
> Mike
> --
> Mike Avery
>
> ICQ: 16241692 AOL IM:MAvery81230
> Phone: 970-642-0280
> * Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other
> way *
>
> A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day:
> Desqview vs. Windows is a no-Win situation.
>
>
>

Dee Randall wrote:
>
>... there is always that
> illusive question not precisely (I know, there are no precise answers)
> answered about feeding a starter...
>
> One has a pot of starter in the refrigerator.
>...

What works for me and my starter is he
http://lumpymuffins.home.comcast.net...h/NoWaste.html


Y'just gotta mess with it for a while and find out what it likes and how you like dealing with it.

--


If you try to 'reply' to me without fixing the dot, your reply
will go into a 'special' mailbox reserved for spam. See below.


--
Carl West http://carl.west.home.comcast.net

>>>>>>>> change the 'DOT' to '.' to email me <<<<<<<<<<<<

If I had six hours to chop down a tree,
I'd spend the first four sharpening the axe.
- Abraham Lincoln

On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 00:00:32 -0500, Dee Randall wrote:

> I'd like to comment about instructions for sourdough starter. I have made
> bread for a good many years, have tried NS's grape starter a number of years
> ago (twice) and Ortiz' starter once. They weren't successful more me (even
> tho I lived in San Francisco <grin>), but I've decided to give it a go
> again, living here on the east coast now.
>
> I've done a bit of reading too about this subject, but there is always that
> illusive question not precisely (I know, there are no precise answers)
> answered about feeding a starter. I just got thru reading one of the
> poster's sites where it was giving instructions, and even though one would
> think it is clear it is just not clear to me, a novice.
>
> These are the questions that I just can't get a handle on from anyone.
>
> Please tell me where I'm wrong and give me some advice if you will --
> greatly appreciated.
>
> One has a pot of starter in the refrigerator.
>
> One takes it out and lets it warm up.

I don't. I take out a little bit and feed it, then continue feeding it
for a day or so until it's big enough and lively enough to make a bread.

> One uses it in a recipe before refreshing it?

I wouldn't.

> One uses it in a recipe after warming it up and refreshing it?

Sort of; see above.

> One takes out a cup for saving before refreshing or not refreshing and
> making the recipe?

What I do is, after I've got the starter fully awake and lively, I feed
it, then take some of that and mix it in with what's in the refrigerator.
That way there's some food for it when it comes out, but not so much that
it gets diluted. You sort of have to play with this; once you play with
it a lot you'll start to get a sense of when it's hungry. For example, my
fairly-wet starter when very hungry will be thinner and have tons of small
bubbles on top (the bubbles have something of a iridescent quality to
them); this is what I would use for bread. When doing a maintenance feed,
I don't wait till it gets to that stage; I wait until it's got lots of
bubbles, but they're larger and the starter hasn't gotten thin.

> One refreshes the saved cup of starter after using it in the recipe?

Many people feed it a bit before putting it back in the fridge. I do.
The cold drastically slows activity, but it still proceeds, so having
some food in there for the beasties seems prudent. There's also a lot of
death, I think, so you want to make sure that the saved-from-the-fridge
portion isn't the bulk of what you put back in the fridge. You're also
going to notice hooch (a yellowish alcohol) has developed in there from
the action of the bacteria; some mix that in, I usually pour it off.

> How much flour and water is normally added to the saved cup? Will this be
> enough for another recipe?

Well, I don't know that you need to save a cup; you can save a half-cup or
less (some get by with a tablespoon or so). In a regular feeding I give
it its own weight in water+flour (50/50); in a before-refrigerating
feeding I only give it half its weight (again, 50/50 water and flour).
This works well for the five to ten days that it stays in the fridge.
When I want to get ready to bake with it, I take out a couple tablespoons
and start feeding that. When that culture is very active I throw away
most of what's in the fridge, add some of the currently-active stuff to
it (so that it's now half new, half old starter), give it a small feeding,
and stick it back in there.

But this is all based on superstition and trial-and-error. It works for
me, but I'm sure there are more controlled recipes and instructions out
there. I think you should get a batch going, and play with it; ask more
questions as they arise (which they probably will), and I'm sure you'll
get good help from the good folks here.

Where on the east coast are you? Could you find a baker around who can
show you some things?

m

On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 06:03:19 -0500, Marc Carter
> wrote:

>I take out a little bit and feed it, then continue feeding it
>for a day or so until it's big enough and lively enough to make a bread.

Hi Marc,

Short, simple, clear...

Dee, do just what he is saying, and you will be hummin'.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

I read your instructions:
"I keep mine in a 1# peanut butter jar and use it straight out of the fridge
..
I dump out what'll come out of the jar easily and use it to make bread or
whatever.
I usually get about 1 C of starter. "

I just don't understand this instruction above and below. If you dump out
what will come out of the jar and use it to make bread, do you have nothing
left in the jar to add the 1/3 cup each of flour. How much do you leave in
the jar?????? to add the 1/3 cup each of flour and water?????

Is what you have a pancake-type batter or a dry ball?

I thought a lot of starter-used recipes call for more than 1 cup and some
call for the small ball. What is yours?



"Into the jar I put 1/3 C each of flour and filtered water.
Tighten the lid.
Shake it up. (no stirring tool to clean)
Loosen the lid, leave it out while the bread rises.

When it's time to bake, I feed the now-active starter another 1/3 C each of
flour and water.
Tighten the lid.
Shake it up.
Loosen the lid, put it in the fridge."

Thanks,
Dee



"Carl West" > wrote in message
news:%r7Lb.312218$_M.1812420@attbi_s54...
> Dee Randall wrote:
> >
> >... there is always that
> > illusive question not precisely (I know, there are no precise answers)
> > answered about feeding a starter...
> >
> > One has a pot of starter in the refrigerator.
> >...
>
> What works for me and my starter is he
> http://lumpymuffins.home.comcast.net...h/NoWaste.html
>
>
> Y'just gotta mess with it for a while and find out what it likes and how
you like dealing with it.
>
> --
>
>
> If you try to 'reply' to me without fixing the dot, your reply
> will go into a 'special' mailbox reserved for spam. See below.
>
>
> --
> Carl West http://carl.west.home.comcast.net
>
> >>>>>>>> change the 'DOT' to '.' to email me <<<<<<<<<<<<
>
> If I had six hours to chop down a tree,
> I'd spend the first four sharpening the axe.
> - Abraham Lincoln

Yeah, I guess I'll have to figure out first how to get a chef or starter. A
chef from my Lalvain du Jour or one from a plastic container with wheat and
water -- soupy or dry -- it's still a mystery to me what kind of starter I
use, and on and on and on.

You're right -- whoever said it -- I need a baker to explain this. I
thought I had the answer when I watched NSilverton, but I guess I'm left
with more questions than answers.

Thanks everyone.
Dee


"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 06:03:19 -0500, Marc Carter
> > wrote:
>
> >I take out a little bit and feed it, then continue feeding it
> >for a day or so until it's big enough and lively enough to make a bread.
>
> Hi Marc,
>
> Short, simple, clear...
>
> Dee, do just what he is saying, and you will be hummin'.
>
> All the best,
>
> --
> Kenneth
>
> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

I did some variation on Silverton, though I can't rememeber if it was
direct from her book or what. But I used a poiund of organic wine
grapes from here on LI, bread flour and water for starter. I did it in
the summer when the weather works in my favor an there's stuff floating
in the air. I left it outside, fed it, etc. I've been using it the
last 5 years or so. My breads have a nice character, I think. No one
has said yech! I only use the started in my multigrain sandwich loaf.

On Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:31:59 -0500, "Dee Randall"
> wrote:

>If you dump out
>what will come out of the jar and use it to make bread, do you have nothing
>left in the jar to add the 1/3 cup each of flour.

Hi Dee,

If you dump out the contents of the jar and then wash it carefully,
there will be nothing left in the jar.

But, if instead, you simply dump out the contents of the jar, there
will remain a coating of the batter-like starter to which you add
flour and water.

HTH,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:42:38 -0500, "Dee Randall"
> wrote:

>Yeah, I guess I'll have to figure out first how to get a chef or starter. A
>chef from my Lalvain du Jour or one from a plastic container with wheat and
>water -- soupy or dry -- it's still a mystery to me what kind of starter I
>use, and on and on and on.
>
>You're right -- whoever said it -- I need a baker to explain this. I
>thought I had the answer when I watched NSilverton, but I guess I'm left
>with more questions than answers.
>
>Thanks everyone.
>Dee
>
>
>"Kenneth" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 06:03:19 -0500, Marc Carter
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >I take out a little bit and feed it, then continue feeding it
>> >for a day or so until it's big enough and lively enough to make a bread.
>>
>> Hi Marc,
>>
>> Short, simple, clear...
>>
>> Dee, do just what he is saying, and you will be hummin'.
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> --
>> Kenneth
>>
>> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
>

Hi Dee,

It is easier to figure out what you are responding to if you post at
the bottom rather than at the top.

Your post started with:

"Yeah, I guess I'll have to figure out first how to get a chef or
starter..."

HTH,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see
the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]

In article >, Dee Randall
> wrote:

> Do you have some instructions that they could "cut and paste" for me to get
> me going? For either "Carl's easy recipe" or the whole-wheat method?

<http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/shouldiuseanestablishedsta.html>
<http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html#sources>
<http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/howcanistartastarterfromsc.html>
<http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/howmuchstarterdoineedtokee.html>
<http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/howshouldifeedmystarterfor.html>
<ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet-by-gro...sourdough/star
ters>
<http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/whatsallthisaboutnaturalle.html>

Cheers,

Darrell

--
To reply, substitute .net for .invalid in address, i.e., darrell.usenet2 (at)
telus.net

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:42:38 -0500, "Dee Randall"
> > wrote:
>
> >Yeah, I guess I'll have to figure out first how to get a chef or starter.
A
> >chef from my Lalvain du Jour or one from a plastic container with wheat
and
> >water -- soupy or dry -- it's still a mystery to me what kind of starter
I
> >use, and on and on and on.
> >
> >You're right -- whoever said it -- I need a baker to explain this. I
> >thought I had the answer when I watched NSilverton, but I guess I'm left
> >with more questions than answers.
> >
> >Thanks everyone.
> >Dee
> >
> >
> >"Kenneth" > wrote in message
> .. .
> >> On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 06:03:19 -0500, Marc Carter
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> >I take out a little bit and feed it, then continue feeding it
> >> >for a day or so until it's big enough and lively enough to make a
bread.
> >>
> >> Hi Marc,
> >>
> >> Short, simple, clear...
> >>
> >> Dee, do just what he is saying, and you will be hummin'.
> >>
> >> All the best,
> >>
> >> --
> >> Kenneth
> >>
> >> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
> >
>
> Hi Dee,
>
> It is easier to figure out what you are responding to if you post at
> the bottom rather than at the top.
>
> Your post started with:
>
> "Yeah, I guess I'll have to figure out first how to get a chef or
> starter..."
>
> HTH,
>
> --
> Kenneth
>
> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

I'll do that Kenneth, thanks.
dee

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:31:59 -0500, "Dee Randall"
> > wrote:
>
> >If you dump out
> >what will come out of the jar and use it to make bread, do you have
nothing
> >left in the jar to add the 1/3 cup each of flour.
>
> Hi Dee,
>
> If you dump out the contents of the jar and then wash it carefully,
> there will be nothing left in the jar.
>
> But, if instead, you simply dump out the contents of the jar, there
> will remain a coating of the batter-like starter to which you add
> flour and water.
>
> HTH,
>
> --
> Kenneth
>
> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."


Hopefully you will have a coating of a "pancake- batter-like starter" vs. a
"chef-type" starter if you dump it out.

Still in my mind there is a more liquid starter and a more dry like starter.
I just can't figure out when someone is talking about their starter, what
kind of starter they have. Is there a way to tell what they are talking
about in their instructions?

Thanks,
Dee

"Dee Randall" > wrote in message =
...

> Is there a way to tell what they are talking about in their=20
> instructions?

Well, I know what I am talking about. But there is actually
no way for you confirm that, even if you wanted to.

> I just can't figure out when someone is talking about their=20
> starter, what kind of starter they have.

I have Carl's starter. You can find out about that at
www.carlsfriends.org or
http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/
if you are interested.

---
DickA

=20

On Thu, 8 Jan 2004 15:40:42 -0500, "Dee Randall"
> wrote:

>Hopefully you will have a coating of a "pancake- batter-like starter" vs. a
>"chef-type" starter if you dump it out.
>
>Still in my mind there is a more liquid starter and a more dry like starter.
>I just can't figure out when someone is talking about their starter, what
>kind of starter they have. Is there a way to tell what they are talking
>about in their instructions?
>
>Thanks,
>Dee
>
>

Hi Dee,

Your response brought a smile, because, of course, you are absolutely
right. I had the image of that "lump" leaving behind a perfectly clean
jar...

If the instructions are any good, you can tell:

They should describe something about the "hydration" of the starter.
That is simply the weight of the water divided by the weight of the
flour.

Less formally, folks describe the same thing with terms such as "a
stiff dough", "a soft dough", "a thin batter" etc.

Any of those descriptions will get you close enough to be just fine.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."