Mrs. Adams has been trying to give me a new bread machine for
years. I make her every three days a cylindrical loaf of whole-wheat
(conventionally yeasted) from grain freshly ground in a hand-me-down
VitaMixer. The old bread machine cost $7 at a garage sale about
ten years ago, and was a replacement for my VIC-DAK which
it was hoped would make SD loaves under the direction of VIC=20
FORTH. My lasting impression is that bread machines should make
cylindrical loaves, but makers have scrambled to meet the conventional
wisdom, and cylindrical loaves seem to have become a thing of the=20
past.

Well, to make a long story short, Kitchen Etc. was offering a Hamilton
Beach 2-lb bread machine for <$30, with an additional 10% discount,
so I urged her to buy it before she splurged on some unwanted
contraption. The secret reason for the need is that the whole-wheat
bread is required for her health, and recently the hole in the paddle =
for
the present contraption has been so enlarged by the end of the drive
shaft that dough runs in and seals the paddle to the shaft making it =
almost
impossible to get the bread out. She does simply not like to hear the
banging and cursing that is required.

Well, on to shortening the story: The instructions that came with the =
new
bread machine say that less bread flour needs be used if one has =
Canadian
bread flour. The difference is given as 3 cups Canadian for 4.5 cups =
U.S.
The reason for that is given as follows: =20

"American flour is milled from hard spring wheat. Canadian flour is=20
milled from hard winter wheat. The percentage of natural gluten varies, =

therefore, the bread varies."

Has anyone out there ever heard of such a thing? My suspicion was
that North American bread flour is North American bread flour=20
throughout the North American Land.

Also, these instructions call for "Bread Machine Yeast". Mrs. Adams
wishes to be assured that the use of ordinary dry bakers' yeast is =
acceptable.
I happen to have a pound (in freezer) on the non-instant kind.

There is another thing about this new bread machine that seems strange.
Rather than forming a ball on the paddle, it forms an untethered ball =
which
gets whacked around the periphery of the bread pan. I wonder if it is=20
the way it is supposed to work. My total experience with bread machines
is that the dough should be adjusted to form a ball on the paddle. But, =
as
I have mentioned, my experience is with machines which make cylindrical
loaves.

I suppose it is OK to respond about yeast and flour differences in the =
NG. =20
Otherwise my coded email address is below.

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com=20

P.S. If you quote this entire inappropriate post to make a one-line=20
comment under/over it, I'll know for sure you're a nOObie. But thanks
anyway.=20

Dick Adams wrote:

> Also, these instructions call for "Bread Machine Yeast". Mrs. Adams
> wishes to be assured that the use of ordinary dry bakers' yeast is acceptable.
> I happen to have a pound (in freezer) on the non-instant kind.

For non-sourdough purposes, "regular" yeast works fine for me in my
machine.

> There is another thing about this new bread machine that seems strange.
> Rather than forming a ball on the paddle, it forms an untethered ball which
> gets whacked around the periphery of the bread pan. I wonder if it is
> the way it is supposed to work. My total experience with bread machines
> is that the dough should be adjusted to form a ball on the paddle. But, as
> I have mentioned, my experience is with machines which make cylindrical
> loaves.

Is this a two-paddle horizontal-loaf-making then? Sounds about right.
The pan on mine has two speed-bump type ridges on each side that turn
the ball as it thwacks about in the pan and rolls the dough over to
expose it to the paddles.

B/

"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
...
> "American flour is milled from hard spring wheat. Canadian flour is
> milled from hard winter wheat. The percentage of natural gluten varies,
> therefore, the bread varies."

Not entirely true. For example, good ol' American King Arthur All-Purpose
Flour is milled from hard red winter wheat:

http://ww2.kingarthurflour.com/cgibi...68390016914753

My understanding is that winter wheat typically has a highly protein content
than spring wheat.

- Steve Brandt

Dick Adams wrote:
>
> ... say that less bread flour needs be used if one has Canadian
> bread flour. The difference is given as 3 cups Canadian for 4.5 cups U.S.
> The reason for that is given as follows:
>
> "American flour is milled from hard spring wheat. Canadian flour is
> milled from hard winter wheat. The percentage of natural gluten varies,
> therefore, the bread varies."
>
> Has anyone out there ever heard of such a thing?

I think that they have it wrong. The Northern Prairie grows
wheat that is planted in the Spring. When you get down to Kansas
and Nebraska the winters are mild enough that they can plant
Winter Wheat. That is planted in the fall and the plants
overwinter to grow and mature in the Spring. There is not a lot
of difference between wheat grown in North Dakota and that grown
in Manitoba. The varities planted in the North tend to be Hard
Spring Wheat that has more and/or better gluten than the typical
soft winter wheat.

That said, my father always insisted on Robin Hood flour from
Canada for bread because it rose better. More gluten I know
now. Canada all purpose flour has higher gluten content than the
average US all purpose flour.

The higher gluten flours will absorb more water than lower gluten
flour. However, I doubt that the difference will be as great as
stated. 3 cups vs. 4.5 cups is quite a difference. Why not just
use the recipe that worked in your old machine?
>
> Also, these instructions call for "Bread Machine Yeast". Mrs. Adams
> wishes to be assured that the use of ordinary dry bakers' yeast is acceptable.
> I happen to have a pound (in freezer) on the non-instant kind.
>
I guarentee that if your yeast worked in the old bread machine,
it will work in the new machine. You may have to slightly adjust
the amount used for different styles. It is like salt, the finer
grinds pack more by weight in a teaspoon.

Regards,

Charles

Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

> > There is another thing about this new bread machine that
seems strange.
> > Rather than forming a ball on the paddle, it forms an
untethered ball which
> > gets whacked around the periphery of the bread pan. I wonder
if it is
> > the way it is supposed to work. My total experience with
bread machines
> > is that the dough should be adjusted to form a ball on the
paddle. But, as
> > I have mentioned, my experience is with machines which make
cylindrical
> > loaves.

My first single paddle bread machine would form a ball on the
paddle, my second single paddle machine does not. It seems to be
the way the paddle and bucket are constructed.
Ernie

Speaking from experience, I have to use 20% more water with Canadian bread
flour than I did with bread flour in Dallas. Some of it could be
differences in relative humidity, elevation, etc, but some of it is
undoubtedly due to the flour.


Bob

"Bob Westcott" > wrote in message
news:X92Gb.793749$pl3.667697@pd7tw3no...
> Speaking from experience, I have to use 20% more water with
Canadian bread
> flour than I did with bread flour in Dallas. Some of it could
be
> differences in relative humidity, elevation, etc, but some of
it is
> undoubtedly due to the flour.
> Bob

Bob, I heard it was just the other way around because Texas water
is drier.
Ernie

"Dick Adams" > wrote in message simply not like to hear the

>
> Well, on to shortening the story: The instructions that came with the
> new
> bread machine say that less bread flour needs be used if one has
> Canadian
> bread flour. The difference is given as 3 cups Canadian for 4.5 cups
> U.S.
> The reason for that is given as follows:
>
> "American flour is milled from hard spring wheat. Canadian flour is
> milled from hard winter wheat. The percentage of natural gluten varies,
>
> therefore, the bread varies."
>
> Has anyone out there ever heard of such a thing? My suspicion was
> that North American bread flour is North American bread flour
> throughout the North American Land.
>
That flour issue IMO is subjective.

Both flours from Cananda and US have both the winter and spring wheat
classification. Previously Canadian wheats are known to have higherr
protein level than US wheat but in recent years it had recently been
much in higherr protein content with the latter.
Spring wheat tends to need slightly more hydration and dough
development time than winter wheats of the same protein level. Which
means that spring wheats are better performer than winter wheats.
Beside during flour milling the grain characteriistics of the spring
wheats favour better milling yield than winter wheats.Besides the
difference in amount for such is great and it does not make sense.
If it said to use more US flour than Canadian type, does the
manufacturer is trying to compare Canadian bread flour with american
all purpose flour?
Think about 3 cups vs 4-1.2 cups that is too high a difference about
2/3 part of the of Canadian is equivalent to 1 part of US flour?
That is too much. In another way,
I was wondering if the canadian flour as used by the machine evaluator
has surrreptitiously added gluten flour but the US flour was
applied with no protein enrichement.
then that would make a difference also. But it will be an unfair
comparison.
Roy

Dick:
As others have pointed out, northern prairie wheat will be "hard spring"
whether it's grown in the Canadian prairie provinces or the northern U.S.
and Montana bread flour will be the same as that from Alberta etc.

I've been using Robin Hood flour lately after having trouble with a
"no-name" commercial flour that was on special at the wholesaler in place of
my regular brand. I've also been doing a lot of xmas baking. The protein
(not gluten) levels are as follows:

Robin Hood Cake and Pastry: 10%
" " All Purpose: 12%
" " Best For Bread 13% (sold for use in bread
machines, white & WW)
Rogers' flours have the same values.
The commercial flour that I normally use for bread is:
Sunspun Bakers' flour (20kg bags) ~14.5% (according to the mill)

A friend of mine who uses a bread machine found that the Best For Bread
types were too expensive so she switched to AP, which is often on special,
and gets excellent results.
I've found the millers who supply a local French boulangère but they have a
5 bag minimum for cash and carry. 100kg is a little too much for my
needs:-)

As to the yeast; why not grind up the little pellets? I'm sure that they
would then be as good as the instant variety, or at least good enough.

Best wishes
Graham

Thank you for your comments and advices. Here are my comments
on your comments:

> Is this a two-paddle horizontal-loaf-making then?

It has only one paddle. Lucky the machine was cheap, otherwise
I would begin to think I had been cheated out of a paddle.
=20
> My understanding is that winter wheat typically has a highly protein=20
> content than spring wheat.

Good to know. Well, to me it is academic because I buy bakers'
bread flour, always of the same brand, and it reportedly always has the
same protein content, ~14%. I do have a question, in fact, about the
constancy of composition of any given flour product --- it seems to me
that flours are probably milled from the grain which is available, which
may change from time to time.

> Why not just use the recipe that worked in your old machine?

Actually, I do not use that method. I just put in the stuff in=20
approximate volumes and then adjust so that a doughball forms.
The new machine has a 40% greater capacity -- I can deal=20
with that, I guess. Of course the salt has to be right, and the
regular yeast (not instant) needs be dissolved in the water first,
at the right temperature and in the right amount.

> My first single paddle bread machine would form a ball on=20
> the paddle, my second single paddle machine does not.

That is comforting to know. So it does not seem to be a defect
that the ball does not rotate on the paddle.
=20
> > I have to use 20% more water with Canadian bread
> > flour than I did with bread flour in Dallas. =20

> I heard it was just the other way around because Texas=20
> water is drier.=20

It is quite amazing how we unexpectedly get to the bottom of
things.

> I was wondering if the canadian flour as used by the machine=20
> evaluator has surrreptitiously added gluten flour but the US=20
> flour was applied with no protein enrichment.

It seems possible that the instructions that came with the new=20
bread machine were written by an Asian person who has never
experienced North American flours. Of course the machine was
made in China. It is called a Robot Boulanger. Mrs. Adams and
me groove on this because we are closet francophiles.

There is a separate addendum sheet which warns that the=20
machine only makes dense bread. Maybe that (sheet) is the=20
reason the machine sold so cheaply ($27). The one loaf of white
bread I made so far was quite fluffy. But I did not follow any
particular instruction. It was a 3+ hr. cycle with 2 knock-downs,
allegedly for French bread.

> A friend of mine who uses a bread machine found that the Best=20
> For Bread types were too expensive so she switched to AP,=20
> which is often on special, and gets excellent results.

That may be a commentary on the higher protein content of=20
Canadian all-purpose flours. American A-P flour is not recommended
for use in bread machines. But that is not to say that I won't give
it a try next time a fantastic bargain on A-P flour comes up.

Again, thank you all for your input.

---
DickA=20