Around here we tend to concentrate on the yeast and lactobacillus
based leavening power of sourdough, but there is another path.

A more acidic starter can be used with baking soda, much in the same
way as buttermilk and baking soda are used. This is often used to
make sourdough biscuits, as well as quickbreads and cakes.

Tonight I was in a hurry. I had to bake a cake right now. And my hand
fell on "The Complete Sourdough Cookbook" by Don and Myrtle Holm.

I settled on "Myrtle's Sourdough Chocolate Cake" on page 102. I've
often thought that Don and Myrtle don't really understand sourdough,
but the cake turned out very, very nicely indeed.

It used 1/2 cup of starter, mixed with 1/4 cup of non-fat dry milk, 1 1/2
cups of flour, and 1 cup of water. The instructions were to "let it stand
a few hours, until that delectable yeasty smell comes to you like an
elixr of the gods." The starter I used was an old all but forgotten starter
from the back of the fridge that was over-due for refreshment. So, I
used 2 tbsp to re-start the starter, and 1/2 cup to make the mixture
above. The mix smelled very good, but it didn't susprise me when it
smelled the same 2 hours later as when I had started.

After that, I creamed 1/2 cup shortening and 1 cup of sugar. I added 1
tsp vanilla, 1 tsp red vegetable coloring (I don't know why I added
this.... it didn't seem to have any real effect), 1/2 tsp salt, and 1 1/2 tsp
baking soda. I mixed, and then added 2 eggs, and 3 squares of
melted bakers chocolate. I mixed some more, and then poured it into
a 7 x 11 baking dish, and baked it about 40 minutes at 350F. I turned
the pan once.

I iced the cake with a chocolate frosting.

The result was moist, rich, very chocolatey, and a big hit at the pot luck
dinner. It had a good strong taste that stayed with you.

Sometimes a walk on the dark side isn't such a bad thing.

Mike
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Mike Avery wrote:

> The result was moist, rich, very chocolatey, and a big hit at the pot luck
> dinner. It had a good strong taste that stayed with you.
>
> Sometimes a walk on the dark side isn't such a bad thing.

Do you know how easy it is to get consistent results with this
leavening method?

David

On 9 Nov 2003 at 1:15, Feuer wrote:

> Mike Avery wrote:
> > The result was moist, rich, very chocolatey, and a big hit at the
> > pot luck dinner. It had a good strong taste that stayed with you.

> > Sometimes a walk on the dark side isn't such a bad thing.

> Do you know how easy it is to get consistent results with this
> leavening method?

Consistency is always an issue for sourdough. However, I have no
feel for how consistent you can be with the sourdough starter and soda
method. Not even a clue. What follows is pure speculation....

The starter I used was pretty acidic, out at the edge of what a starter
can produce. I suspect how acidic a starter can become is limited by
the organism, what it's fed, and how often it's fed.

All of which is to say, if you leave the starter at room temperature
without refreshment for about 3 days, you'd probably be pretty close to
the same point each time you did this. When you are making bread,
you want an ective starter, for cakes I think you'd want an acidic
starter.

Mike
--
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Mike Avery wrote:

> All of which is to say, if you leave the starter at room temperature
> without refreshment for about 3 days, you'd probably be pretty close to
> the same point each time you did this.

3 days at room temp I think is longer than is really safe. I
suspect you'd come close to maximum acidity after one day, assuming
a reasonable innoculation.

David

On 9 Nov 2003 at 1:34, Feuer wrote:

> Mike Avery wrote:

> > All of which is to say, if you leave the starter at room temperature
> > without refreshment for about 3 days, you'd probably be pretty close
> > to the same point each time you did this.

> 3 days at room temp I think is longer than is really safe. I
> suspect you'd come close to maximum acidity after one day, assuming a
> reasonable innoculation.

Safe? If you start with a healthy culture, one which will produce the
desired acidity, then there aren't many pathogenic organisms that will
be able to survive in the culture. Of course, I am assuming that your
culture is covered, not open to the fruit flies, gnats, and other critters
that seem to invade even the cleanest house if there is some sort of
bait out...

Another option would be to use ph test strips to check when the starter
gets to the same point each time you are going to bake.

Mike
--
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Phone: 970-642-0280
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Mike Avery wrote:

> Safe? If you start with a healthy culture, one which will produce the
> desired acidity, then there aren't many pathogenic organisms that will
> be able to survive in the culture.

Sure they will. Acidic food that are not canned will spoil, though
not as rapidly as non-acidic foods, and not from C. botulinum. What
keeps sourdough safe is that the acidity and acetic acid slow the
growth of harmful organisms enough that when the culture is regularly
refreshed the harmful organisms will never be able to reach dangerous
levels. After 3 days, I would not be surprised to see visible mold.
Using a pH meter does not sound like a bad idea, though you'd probably
stop using it once you got a good feel for the method.

David

Feuer wrote:
>
> Mike Avery wrote:
>
> > All of which is to say, if you leave the starter at room temperature
> > without refreshment for about 3 days, you'd probably be pretty close to
> > the same point each time you did this.
>
> 3 days at room temp I think is longer than is really safe. I
> suspect you'd come close to maximum acidity after one day, assuming
> a reasonable innoculation.

I have a graph from Ottogalli's research on panettone cake showing
acidity growing until 36 hours, then the graph ends, but the curve is
not flat at that point. After 24 hours it is still increasing pretty
steep. Some LB's can go down to 3.2 pH and my guess is that it will take
quite some time to get there - surely in the realm of 2 -3 days.

From a Aug. 2002 post:

> The graphs are the
>
> http://samartha.net/SD/images/private/IT/
>
> To keep copyright usage within fair use for educational purpose and my
> butt out of trouble, I have to restrict access. The login and password
> is sd (case sensitive).

Curves from Rohrlich et al, 1959 show increasing acidity up to 72 hours,
then the curves end - also not flat at that point.

It very much depends on the growth medium as well - high mineral
contents (more fully grain) going much longer.

In a later post, you write:

> After 3 days, I would not be surprised to see visible mold.

I don't know what kind of starter experience makes you say that. Even
sourdough bread does not get moldy after 3 days and it's much less
acidic than a starter.

Would you call sourdough bread sitting at room temperature for 3 days as
"not safe"?

Go the

http://samartha.net/SD/MakeStarter01-a.html

under "Starter Poisonous?" there is something about such situations.

If you want to be paranoid, look for something else, not your starter.

Samartha

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"Mike Avery" > wrote in message =
news:mailman.4.1068357035.8460.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com...

> A more acidic starter can be used with baking soda, much in the same=20
> way as buttermilk and baking soda are used. This is often used to=20
> make sourdough biscuits, as well as quickbreads and cakes.

Curiously, the most obvious advice is usually omitted, namely that the=20
leavening from soda and sourdough acids is generated instantaneously,
so the soda needs be added very shortly before baking if it is to do
its job properly. (Baking powder, on the other hand, has a component
which releases gas during heating.)

Experience shows that the soda needs be combined with some non-
acidic liquid portion of the mix before the final mixing, because the
dry soda is almost impossible to disperse in dough or thick batter.

> Sometimes a walk on the dark side isn't such a bad thing.

Chocolate cake does not get credit at r.f.s. for being a dark art.
That distinction, at r.f.s., is reserved for rye sourdough =
uncontaminated
with such things a chocolate, coffee, caramel color, etc. Samartha
is the Prince of Darkness, at least until the all-rye enthusiasts show
some evidence of self-standing boules.

---
DickA

Samartha wrote:
<< I have a graph from Ottogalli's research on panettone cake showing
acidity growing until 36 hours... >>


Ed Bechtel asks:

Was that RYE panettone cake?

I tried making 100% rye bread this weekend. My self esteem had been too high
for the last month and needed correcting. The single loaf came out about 1.5
inches tall at best, about the height of cake. Maybe if I tell my wife it is
panettone cake she will eat it all up.

Is it normal for rye bread to be dense, or is it possible to get something less
Scandanavian like?

Ed

On 09 Nov 2003 16:46:50 GMT, ojunk (Ed Bechtel)
wrote:

>Is it normal for rye bread to be dense

Hi Ed,

In a word... Yes. 100% rye breads are all extremely dense.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On 9 Nov 2003 at 2:01, Feuer wrote:
> Mike Avery wrote:

> > Safe? If you start with a healthy culture, one which will produce
> > the desired acidity, then there aren't many pathogenic organisms
> > that will be able to survive in the culture.

> Sure they will. Acidic food that are not canned will spoil, though
> not as rapidly as non-acidic foods, and not from C. botulinum. What
> keeps sourdough safe is that the acidity and acetic acid slow the
> growth of harmful organisms enough that when the culture is regularly
> refreshed the harmful organisms will never be able to reach dangerous
> levels. After 3 days, I would not be surprised to see visible mold.

I'd be stunned to see mold in 3 days, if someone started with a healthy
starter. As Samartha pointed out, bread lasts considerably longer than
that without molding. I've left leftover starter in a bowl on the counter
ignored and unloved for over a week with no molding, and the
pancakes we made with the starter were just fine. No one got sick, no
one had digestive upset.

Of course, there are differences dependent upon the conditions of
one's kitchen. I live in a very dry area, and there don't seem to be
many mold spores in the air. If I lived in some high humidity pestilential
hell hole, like Houston (as I have done in the mercifully distant past), I'd
expect to see mold and other parasitic annoying infestations sooner.

> Using a pH meter does not sound like a bad idea, though you'd probably
> stop using it once you got a good feel for the method.

Test strips are accurate enough, and much cheaper.

Mike
--
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ICQ: 16241692 AOL IM:MAvery81230
Phone: 970-642-0280
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On 09 Nov 2003 16:46:50 GMT, ojunk (Ed Bechtel)
wrote:

><< I have a graph from Ottogalli's research on panettone cake showing
>acidity growing until 36 hours... >>

>Was that RYE panettone cake?

>I tried making 100% rye bread this weekend. My self esteem had been too high
>for the last month and needed correcting. The single loaf came out about 1.5
>inches tall at best, about the height of cake. Maybe if I tell my wife it is
>panettone cake she will eat it all up.

>Is it normal for rye bread to be dense, or is it possible to get something less
>Scandanavian like?

From Websters Online:

Main Entry: pan·et·to·ne
Pronunciation: "pä-n&-'tO-nE, "pa-
Function: noun
Etymology: Italian, from panetto small loaf, diminutive of pane bread,
from Latin panis -- more at FOOD
Date: 1922
a usually yeast-leavened bread containing raisins and candied fruit


IOW, a fruit cake.

In rec.food.sourdough Ed Bechtel wrote:

> I tried making 100% rye bread this weekend. My self esteem had
> been too high for the last month and needed correcting. The
> single loaf came out about 1.5 inches tall at best, about the
> height of cake.

This is within normal limits for 100% rye. With higher hydration
and damaged starch, one can do better - contact Monica Spiller for
details.

You may want to check out a loaf of French Meadow 100% rye, or
other comparable brands in you local health food store, generally
in the frozen section, to see what others can do.

> Is it normal for rye bread to be dense, or is it possible to get
> something less Scandanavian like?

What is important for me is the taste and texture of the crumb.

So, how did your 100 rye bread taste?

--
Jeff Sheinberg
for email addr: remove "l1." and change ".invalid" to ".net"

Samartha Deva wrote:

> I don't know what kind of starter experience makes you say that.

Probably comes from not making bread for the past few months.

David

Jeff replied:
<< What is important for me is the taste and texture of the crumb.>>

The crumb was OK, but it was difficult for me to discriminate it from a plop of
raw dough that had fallen on the floor and dried. I think I need more
practice.

The flavor was great. Nice sour taste, and with a piece of cheese, it was da
bomb (that's street talk for "wow, just like smorgasbord").

I used the recipe you posted a week ago. My inclination is that I might have
had a more desireable loaf if I'd not incorporated the last 10 percent rye
after the 1.5 hour rise and gone straight to the oven. Also I'm wondering if
leaving it as a boulle and baking free form would have been better - I'm not
good at pan loaves.

Thanks for the advice,
Ed

Kenneth wrote:
>
> On 09 Nov 2003 16:46:50 GMT, ojunk (Ed Bechtel)
> wrote:
>
> >Is it normal for rye bread to be dense
>
> Hi Ed,
>
> In a word... Yes. 100% rye breads are all extremely dense.

Not really - in particular:

1) - all, no way
2) - extremely - not true either.

If you would say "denser", you are right, "extremely" - only if one
intends to or messes up.

I whipped out a page with 3 pictures from a small (well, 1200g) 100 %
rye loaf I made a week ago and had just unfrozen this morning. It has a
very pleasant light crumb:

http://samartha.net/SD/images/BYDATE/03-11-01/

As for a mess-up, go the

http://samartha.net/images/SD/ffandfunnies.html

- the one on the top, - 100 % rye. That was a starter failure when I
tried to fudge something. I had some leftover starter sitting in the
fridge and just doubled and let it run for a couple of hours, thinking
it "looked good" and it sure was sour enough for rye, so I thought....

Samartha

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On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 23:01:04 -0700, Samartha Deva
> wrote:

>Kenneth wrote:
>>
>> On 09 Nov 2003 16:46:50 GMT, ojunk (Ed Bechtel)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Is it normal for rye bread to be dense
>>
>> Hi Ed,
>>
>> In a word... Yes. 100% rye breads are all extremely dense.
>
>Not really - in particular:
>
>1) - all, no way
>2) - extremely - not true either.
>
>If you would say "denser", you are right, "extremely" - only if one
>intends to or messes up.
>
>I whipped out a page with 3 pictures from a small (well, 1200g) 100 %
>rye loaf I made a week ago and had just unfrozen this morning. It has a
>very pleasant light crumb:
>
>http://samartha.net/SD/images/BYDATE/03-11-01/
>
>As for a mess-up, go the
>
>http://samartha.net/images/SD/ffandfunnies.html
>
>- the one on the top, - 100 % rye. That was a starter failure when I
>tried to fudge something. I had some leftover starter sitting in the
>fridge and just doubled and let it run for a couple of hours, thinking
>it "looked good" and it sure was sour enough for rye, so I thought....
>
>Samartha

Hi Samartha,

I stand (happily) corrected...<g>

But have a few (indirectly) related questions:

I am baking pumpernickel #2 as I type and wondered:

Are authentic pumpernickels ever done with caraway?

And now, on to softwa

When I looked at the rye pictures at your site, I got the spam blocker
message. You had mentioned to me that I should be able to correct that
with a setting in my AV software, but I have no idea what you mean.
Can you assist?

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Kenneth" > in message =

said to Samartha

> ... Are authentic pumpernickels ever done with caraway? ...

There you go, Kenneth. Now you're getting the hang of it.

Throw pebbles! Try to get him upset.

--
DickA

Kenneth wrote:

> Are authentic pumpernickels ever done with caraway?

Interesting question. I haven't seen one like that yet, but I have
seen very few authentic pumpernickels. The real question is why
anyone would want to put caraway in their bread at all.

David

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 10:19:14 -0500, Feuer > wrote:

>The real question is why
>anyone would want to put caraway in their bread at all.

Hi David,

I have known for a while that the world can be divided into the
caraway lovers, and the caraway haters.

I am of the former...

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth wrote:

> I have known for a while that the world can be divided into the
> caraway lovers, and the caraway haters.
>
> I am of the former...
>
> All the best,

For a long time I thought I didn't like rye bread. Then I found out
that what I don't like is caraway.

David