I followed the directions from
http://www.io.com/~sjohn/sour.htm.
I used an Stoneground Flour for the starter and it seemed to bubble up
nicely. The smell was a little like a sour dough bread.
I tried to make a sourdough loaf I used an unbleached bread flour
followed the direections.
After an hour plus or minus in my Proofer (a Packing container with a
moist heating pad) it appeared to have risen THe dough felt a little
dense when I punched it down and formed it into a loaf. THe second rise
wasn't as much as I expected and baked according to directions .....
The result an object that would prove to be fatal if dropped on some
body......

I still have the starter now in my fridge and fed with unbleached bread
flour.

Should I try again?

Also what are the recomended Internal temperature for a done loaf?

I haven't much luck with the sounds hollow philosphy ....

Although I do make a good Crocodrillo from THe fields book....

Thanks

John LaBella wrote:
> I followed the directions from
> http://www.io.com/~sjohn/sour.htm.

Those instructions can be misleading. They indicate:

"When your starter develops a bubbly froth, it is done. You have succeeded."

If this is the first burst of activity, it has not much to do with
sourdough yet. All kinds of organisms grow and after a while, the
sourdough bacteria amongst there will create enough sourness so the
others will die off.

Maybe you have mistaken the first burst as the indicator for success and
used this to make your bread.

> I used an Stoneground Flour for the starter and it seemed to bubble up
> nicely. The smell was a little like a sour dough bread.

I would think that sourdough bread is baked and an unbaked starter
smells different.

The question is if it has gotten sour. Can you taste if this is the
case? If so, you got a potential functional sourdough starter.

The inner dough temp is something like 190 F - I use 180 F fine.

> I tried to make a sourdough loaf I used an unbleached bread flour
> followed the direections.
> After an hour plus or minus in my Proofer (a Packing container with a
> moist heating pad) it appeared to have risen THe dough felt a little
> dense when I punched it down and formed it into a loaf. THe second rise
> wasn't as much as I expected and baked according to directions .....
> The result an object that would prove to be fatal if dropped on some
> body......
>
> I still have the starter now in my fridge and fed with unbleached bread
> flour.
>
> Should I try again?

Is it sour and if you feed it, will it start to develop bubbles? If so,
it may be worth by developing it more - triple a small amount by adding
equal amounts (by weight) of flour and water, let it sit for maybe 6
hours and see if it grows. If it does, triple it again, let it get
active again for a while, when activity starts getting less, make dough
from it.

If you don't get it to grow, post again.

Samartha

John LaBella wrote:
> I followed the directions from
> http://www.io.com/~sjohn/sour.htm.
> I used an Stoneground Flour for the starter and it seemed to bubble up
> nicely. The smell was a little like a sour dough bread.
> I tried to make a sourdough loaf I used an unbleached bread flour
> followed the direections.
> After an hour plus or minus in my Proofer (a Packing container with a
> moist heating pad) it appeared to have risen THe dough felt a little
> dense when I punched it down and formed it into a loaf. THe second rise
> wasn't as much as I expected and baked according to directions .....
> The result an object that would prove to be fatal if dropped on some
> body......
>
> I still have the starter now in my fridge and fed with unbleached bread
> flour.
>
> Should I try again?
>
> Also what are the recomended Internal temperature for a done loaf?
>
> I haven't much luck with the sounds hollow philosphy ....
>
> Although I do make a good Crocodrillo from THe fields book....
>
> Thanks
>

Even my regular white bread won't rise double in an hour usually....

I too am a sourdough rookie and have made some door stops. Got one the
other day when I was in a rush and totally spaced out and used
chlorinated water for the mix. Them little critters don't much like
chlorine. Grrr....

Mine smells like fermenting beer.

My sourdough takes up to 4 hours to double in size some days and at
least 2 hours most days. I even use the oven that was preheated to 200
before use to keep it warm. I wait until I can put my hand on the door
inside before the bread goes in to rise.

I find the finger dent test useful. When I dent it and the dent pops
back out quickly, the dough is still rising. When it slows down it is
ready. Wait too long and it will fall back down, but this is long after
the dents stop refilling.

I leave at 'least' six hours from the time I start as a guess for when I
will have bread out of the oven vs 3-4 hours for white bread.

I also seem to have 'much' better effects if I feed my starter 2-3 times
just before using. Once the afternoon before when I take it out of the
fridge, once before bed, again in the morning early and I start the
bread at lunch time to be ready for supper hopefully.

This also leaves me a nice blob to put back into storage.

Mike

"John LaBella" > wrote in message . ..
> I followed the directions from
> http://www.io.com/~sjohn/sour.htm

> [ ... ]

(Namely

> First, you must create a starter:

Well, maybe you should buy one, or get one sent to you by someone
who has a good one.

> ... The starter is mixed into a dough, and it causes the bread to rise.
Bake and serve. Yum!

Yum!??

> Select a container that your "pet" will live in.

Cripes! Let's not start that again. Not like a dog or a cat or a gerbil.

> A wide-mouthed glass jar is best.

Any friken jar will do. Even a "protected" can.

> Every 24 Hours, Feed the Starter.

Unless it is not eating. It should show some signs of life. Feeding a near-dead
starter culture is not helpful. If it is alive and well, daily feedings at room
temperature are going to be too infrequent.

> You should keep the starter in a warm place; 70-80 degrees Farenheit is perfect.

Only Allah is perfect. Starters will thrive at 65°F., even lower temperatures.
They can even perk along at fridge temperatures.

> Allow a little breathing space in the lid. If you're using a mayo or pickle jar,
> punch a hole in the lit with a nail, that kind of thing.

A mayo jar is unnecessarily big. Air is not needed, as sourdough organisms can get
along quite well without it.

> Once the starter is chilled, it needs to be fed only once a week.

Monthly feeding of refrigerated sourdough culture is probably OK.

> ... the only other thing you need to worry about is hooch.

Hooch should never be seen. But it is not particularly worrisome.

> Proofing the Sponge

Sponge is optional. "Proofing" is a terrible word. Forget sponge and proofing.
Just use a big inoculation of thoroughly refreshed starter. Or a small one if
you've got some time.

> ... You'll need the following:

> 2 Cups of sponge (proofed starter)
> 3 Cups of unbleached flour
> 2 tablespoons of olive oil or softened margarine
> 4 teaspoons of sugar
> 2 teaspoons of salt

Sugar and oil/fat are unnecessary. Oil/fat is detrimental. Sugar may contribute
to your incipient diabetes. There's nothing the matter with bleached flour, and
bread flour is recommended. (Dicky recommends bromated bread flour.)
(In California, it is thought that bromate can kill ya.)

> First, let's talk about leftover sponge.

Too much talking, too little breadmaking. I had to give up here, on this one.

> [ ... ]

> I'm continually amazed at the elegance of sourdough baking.

Me, too, and even more so at the verbose inelegance of most recipes.

--
Dicky

Dick Adams wrote:
> "John LaBella" > wrote in message . ..

>> ... the only other thing you need to worry about is hooch.
>
> Hooch should never be seen.

Should it be heard?

B/

On 2 Jun, 02:29, John LaBella > wrote:
> I followed the directions fromhttp://www.io.com/~sjohn/sour.htm.

> Thanks


HI John,

I haven't read that link but there is so much utter crepe out there,
and judging from what Dicky said that is one good example of it.

Go to Carl's friends site, there's lots of good recipes and advice
there, you can even get a tried and tested starter. I always thought
anyone could make a starter but I've since learned this is not the
case. I've been around bread baking all my life so perhaps I keep my
own store of starter on me wherever I go. Who knows.

Jim

"Mike Romain" > wrote in message
ng.com...

> I too am a sourdough rookie and have made some door stops. Got one the
> other day when I was in a rush and totally spaced out and used
> chlorinated water for the mix. Them little critters don't much like
> chlorine. Grrr....
>
> Mine smells like fermenting beer.

Crap...I think I may have messed up with my starter I made a couple days
ago(flour/water, my first one ever actually) and used tap water(ours has
quite a bit of chlorine added to it). I might have used mostly distilled and
just some tap water, but my brain's constantly fried lately and I can't
remember...on the bright side, if it will end up smelling like fermenting
beer, if I ever get around to being able to get home brewing
equipment(mostly for wines though), I guess I'll be somewhat prepared.

Lilah Morgan wrote:
> "Mike Romain" > wrote in message
> ng.com....
>
>
> Crap...I think I may have messed up with my starter I made a couple days
> ago(flour/water, my first one ever actually) and used tap water(ours has
> quite a bit of chlorine added to it).

Chances are it will still be good. Unless you have strong chlorine or
persistent chlorine, it will usually work. And distilled water is not a
good choice - it is missing the minerals that seem to help fermentation.

I always use tap water, and I have no trouble with it.

Mike


--
Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day:
Software independant: Won't work with ANY software.

Lilah Morgan wrote:
> "Mike Romain" > wrote in message
> ng.com...
>
>> I too am a sourdough rookie and have made some door stops. Got one the
>> other day when I was in a rush and totally spaced out and used
>> chlorinated water for the mix. Them little critters don't much like
>> chlorine. Grrr....
>>
>> Mine smells like fermenting beer.
>
> Crap...I think I may have messed up with my starter I made a couple days
> ago(flour/water, my first one ever actually) and used tap water(ours has
> quite a bit of chlorine added to it). I might have used mostly distilled and
> just some tap water, but my brain's constantly fried lately and I can't
> remember...on the bright side, if it will end up smelling like fermenting
> beer, if I ever get around to being able to get home brewing
> equipment(mostly for wines though), I guess I'll be somewhat prepared.
>
>

I don't go as far as distilled, just bottled or tap water that has sat
out for at least 24 hours. If you keep cold tap water in the fridge, it
loses it's chlorine in a day or so.

Same for fish tank water. My fish don't much like chlorine either.

Mike

Mike Avery wrote:
> Lilah Morgan wrote:
>> "Mike Romain" > wrote in message
>> ng.com....
>>
>> Crap...I think I may have messed up with my starter I made a couple days
>> ago(flour/water, my first one ever actually) and used tap water(ours has
>> quite a bit of chlorine added to it).
>
> Chances are it will still be good. Unless you have strong chlorine or
> persistent chlorine, it will usually work. And distilled water is not a
> good choice - it is missing the minerals that seem to help fermentation.
>
> I always use tap water, and I have no trouble with it.
>
> Mike
>
>

Where I live the water is heavily treated. We cannot swim in the lake
the drinking water comes from due to pollution levels.

Mike

"Mike Romain" > wrote in message
ng.com...

> I don't go as far as distilled, just bottled or tap water that has sat
> out for at least 24 hours. If you keep cold tap water in the fridge, it
> loses it's chlorine in a day or so.

Hmmm...didn't know that, will remember. Thanks.

Mike Romain wrote:
>
> I don't go as far as distilled, just bottled or tap water that has sat
> out for at least 24 hours. If you keep cold tap water in the fridge, it
> loses it's chlorine in a day or so.
>
> Same for fish tank water. My fish don't much like chlorine either.
>
It depends on the amount, and type, of chlorine used by your water
supply. Chloramines are quite persistent. Letting the water stand, on
or out of the fridge, and even boiling it won't get rid of the chlorine.

Our water quality is excellent and the water is minimally chlorinated,
so I've had no trouble. Moreover, in talking to people from around the
country in this, and several other forums, I've only heard of one person
who had troubles because of chlorine. He lived in a Phoenix suburb that
used chloramines. And... most home water filters will not remove any
form of chlorine.

More often there are other issues.

Mike

--
Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day:
Does The Little Mermaid wear an algebra?

On 5 Jun, 17:32, Mike Romain > wrote:
> I don't go as far as distilled, just bottled or tap water that has sat
> out for at least 24 hours. If you keep cold tap water in the fridge, it
> loses it's chlorine in a day or so.
>
> Mike

I have a water filter that I use for drinking water, that water is
fine. I probably could use just tap but I prefer the taste of the
filtered and as it's there I use it in my bread. I used the tap water
for ten years with the starter I made from yeast with no problem. I
never considered it a sourdough starter but it seems some of you
disagree with that.

Jim

TG wrote:
> On 5 Jun, 17:32, Mike Romain > wrote:
>> I don't go as far as distilled, just bottled or tap water that has sat
>> out for at least 24 hours. If you keep cold tap water in the fridge, it
>> loses it's chlorine in a day or so.
>>
>> Mike
>
> I have a water filter that I use for drinking water, that water is
> fine. I probably could use just tap but I prefer the taste of the
> filtered and as it's there I use it in my bread. I used the tap water
> for ten years with the starter I made from yeast with no problem. I
> never considered it a sourdough starter but it seems some of you
> disagree with that.
>
> Jim
>
>

Our tap water is so bad, a 5 gallon change of it into my 35 gallon fish
tank will kill fish every time if it isn't treated for the chlorine.

Mike

Well I just took my first sourdough loaf out of the oven and tried a slice.
It only has a very subtle sour taste, not as prevalent as I would have
liked, but at least it wasn't a total waste. I think it's because for the
starter I used regular white all purpose flour, and for the sponge I used
whole wheat(because the recipe I had was for whole wheat sourdough), and
then I used regular flour again to make it dough material because I spaced
and didn't save the rest of the whole wheat flour(I used the rest of it to
make sourdough whole wheat pancakes). Oh well.

Lilah Morgan wrote:
> Well I just took my first sourdough loaf out of the oven and tried a slice.
> It only has a very subtle sour taste, not as prevalent as I would have
> liked, but at least it wasn't a total waste. I think it's because for the
> starter I used regular white all purpose flour, and for the sponge I used
> whole wheat(because the recipe I had was for whole wheat sourdough), and
> then I used regular flour again to make it dough material because I spaced
> and didn't save the rest of the whole wheat flour(I used the rest of it to
> make sourdough whole wheat pancakes). Oh well.
>
>

For some strange reason mine won't taste much sour until the next day
when it has totally cooled.

Some folks are saying 3 days for the best flavor.

Mike

On 7 Jun, 19:19, Mike Romain > wrote:
>
> Our tap water is so bad, a 5 gallon change of it into my 35 gallon fish
> tank will kill fish every time if it isn't treated for the chlorine.
>
> Mike- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Hi Mike,

I'm sure you're right and your water may well be to chlorinated for
sourdough, like I said I use a jug filter it's cheaper and easier for
me than bottled, but I know you guys with cars and a supply of large
bottles of water will probably find it easier and cheaper to go that
route.

Jim

TG wrote:
> On 7 Jun, 19:19, Mike Romain > wrote:
>> Our tap water is so bad, a 5 gallon change of it into my 35 gallon fish
>> tank will kill fish every time if it isn't treated for the chlorine.
>>
>> Mike- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> I'm sure you're right and your water may well be to chlorinated for
> sourdough, like I said I use a jug filter it's cheaper and easier for
> me than bottled, but I know you guys with cars and a supply of large
> bottles of water will probably find it easier and cheaper to go that
> route.
>
> Jim
>
>

If I leave my water out overnight or in the fridge, the chlorine will
evaporate away, then there aren't too many issues except for that 'wet
dog' smell it has in the summer... My Brita jug filter won't take that
out...

The fish don't mind it then, but having to hold your nose to drink the
tap water, well....

Mike