Melba's Jammin' wrote:

> Sure, inasmuch as it could work as a container. They probably
> won't spoil in that length of time in transit. Doing it right,
> though, it would be properly canned and processed and
> sent that way -- no spoilage. A vacuum seal via a Tilia
> is not a substitute for proper heat processing.

Yeah, but the Seal-A-Meal bags can be boiled. What if
you sealed the food in bags, then subjected them to heat
and pressure in a pressure cooker, the same time and
temperature used for canning in Mason jars. Wouldn't
that be completely safe?

[Note that I added rec.food.preserving to the newsgroups.]

Melba's Jammin' wrote:

> Sure, inasmuch as it could work as a container. They probably
> won't spoil in that length of time in transit. Doing it right,
> though, it would be properly canned and processed and
> sent that way -- no spoilage. A vacuum seal via a Tilia
> is not a substitute for proper heat processing.

Yeah, but the Seal-A-Meal bags can be boiled. What if
you sealed the food in bags, then subjected them to heat
and pressure in a pressure cooker, the same time and
temperature used for canning in Mason jars. Wouldn't
that be completely safe?

[Note that I added rec.food.preserving to the newsgroups.]

Melba's Jammin' wrote:

> Sure, inasmuch as it could work as a container. They probably
> won't spoil in that length of time in transit. Doing it right,
> though, it would be properly canned and processed and
> sent that way -- no spoilage. A vacuum seal via a Tilia
> is not a substitute for proper heat processing.

Yeah, but the Seal-A-Meal bags can be boiled. What if
you sealed the food in bags, then subjected them to heat
and pressure in a pressure cooker, the same time and
temperature used for canning in Mason jars. Wouldn't
that be completely safe?

[Note that I added rec.food.preserving to the newsgroups.]

Mark Thorson wrote:
>
> Melba's Jammin' wrote:
>
> > Sure, inasmuch as it could work as a container. They probably
> > won't spoil in that length of time in transit. Doing it right,
> > though, it would be properly canned and processed and
> > sent that way -- no spoilage. A vacuum seal via a Tilia
> > is not a substitute for proper heat processing.
>
> Yeah, but the Seal-A-Meal bags can be boiled.

Same with the Tilia.

nancy

Mark Thorson wrote:
>
> Melba's Jammin' wrote:
>
> > Sure, inasmuch as it could work as a container. They probably
> > won't spoil in that length of time in transit. Doing it right,
> > though, it would be properly canned and processed and
> > sent that way -- no spoilage. A vacuum seal via a Tilia
> > is not a substitute for proper heat processing.
>
> Yeah, but the Seal-A-Meal bags can be boiled.

Same with the Tilia.

nancy

Mark Thorson wrote:
>
> Melba's Jammin' wrote:
>
> > Sure, inasmuch as it could work as a container. They probably
> > won't spoil in that length of time in transit. Doing it right,
> > though, it would be properly canned and processed and
> > sent that way -- no spoilage. A vacuum seal via a Tilia
> > is not a substitute for proper heat processing.
>
> Yeah, but the Seal-A-Meal bags can be boiled.

Same with the Tilia.

nancy

In article >, Mark Thorson
> wrote:

> Melba's Jammin' wrote:
>
> > Sure, inasmuch as it could work as a container. They probably
> > won't spoil in that length of time in transit. Doing it right,
> > though, it would be properly canned and processed and
> > sent that way -- no spoilage. A vacuum seal via a Tilia
> > is not a substitute for proper heat processing.
>
> Yeah, but the Seal-A-Meal bags can be boiled. What if
> you sealed the food in bags, then subjected them to heat
> and pressure in a pressure cooker, the same time and
> temperature used for canning in Mason jars. Wouldn't
> that be completely safe?
>
> [Note that I added rec.food.preserving to the newsgroups.]

I don't know. It's a novel idea, though. It probably wouldn't do the
brownies and cookies much good.
--
-Barb, <www.jamlady.eboard.com> Updated 9-18-04; Sushi Story
"Peace will come when the power of love overcomes the love of power."
-Jimi Hendrix, and Lt. Joe Corcoran, Retired; St. Paul PD, Homicide Divn.

In article >, Mark Thorson
> wrote:

> Melba's Jammin' wrote:
>
> > Sure, inasmuch as it could work as a container. They probably
> > won't spoil in that length of time in transit. Doing it right,
> > though, it would be properly canned and processed and
> > sent that way -- no spoilage. A vacuum seal via a Tilia
> > is not a substitute for proper heat processing.
>
> Yeah, but the Seal-A-Meal bags can be boiled. What if
> you sealed the food in bags, then subjected them to heat
> and pressure in a pressure cooker, the same time and
> temperature used for canning in Mason jars. Wouldn't
> that be completely safe?
>
> [Note that I added rec.food.preserving to the newsgroups.]

I don't know. It's a novel idea, though. It probably wouldn't do the
brownies and cookies much good.
--
-Barb, <www.jamlady.eboard.com> Updated 9-18-04; Sushi Story
"Peace will come when the power of love overcomes the love of power."
-Jimi Hendrix, and Lt. Joe Corcoran, Retired; St. Paul PD, Homicide Divn.

Melba's Jammin' wrote:

> In article >, Mark Thorson
> > wrote:
>
> > Yeah, but the Seal-A-Meal bags can be boiled. What if
> > you sealed the food in bags, then subjected them to heat
> > and pressure in a pressure cooker, the same time and
> > temperature used for canning in Mason jars. Wouldn't
> > that be completely safe?
>
> I don't know. It's a novel idea, though. It probably wouldn't
> do the brownies and cookies much good.

Those don't need sterile packaging. The OP also
asked about "Texas picante sauce and pico de gallo",
which I suppose may present a spoilage concern,
if not sterilized.

Melba's Jammin' wrote:

> In article >, Mark Thorson
> > wrote:
>
> > Yeah, but the Seal-A-Meal bags can be boiled. What if
> > you sealed the food in bags, then subjected them to heat
> > and pressure in a pressure cooker, the same time and
> > temperature used for canning in Mason jars. Wouldn't
> > that be completely safe?
>
> I don't know. It's a novel idea, though. It probably wouldn't
> do the brownies and cookies much good.

Those don't need sterile packaging. The OP also
asked about "Texas picante sauce and pico de gallo",
which I suppose may present a spoilage concern,
if not sterilized.

Melba's Jammin' wrote:

> In article >, Mark Thorson
> > wrote:
>
> > Yeah, but the Seal-A-Meal bags can be boiled. What if
> > you sealed the food in bags, then subjected them to heat
> > and pressure in a pressure cooker, the same time and
> > temperature used for canning in Mason jars. Wouldn't
> > that be completely safe?
>
> I don't know. It's a novel idea, though. It probably wouldn't
> do the brownies and cookies much good.

Those don't need sterile packaging. The OP also
asked about "Texas picante sauce and pico de gallo",
which I suppose may present a spoilage concern,
if not sterilized.

"Mark Thorson" wrote:
> Melba's Jammin' wrote:
>
> > Sure, inasmuch as it could work as a container. They probably
> > won't spoil in that length of time in transit. Doing it right,
> > though, it would be properly canned and processed and
> > sent that way -- no spoilage. A vacuum seal via a Tilia
> > is not a substitute for proper heat processing.
>
> Yeah, but the Seal-A-Meal bags can be boiled. What if
> you sealed the food in bags, then subjected them to heat
> and pressure in a pressure cooker, the same time and
> temperature used for canning in Mason jars. Wouldn't
> that be completely safe?

No. Jars being pressure canned or water bath canned are not sealed *before*
processing. Air leaves jars during processing, and that vacuum creates the
seal when processing is over. If you try to process sealed bags, all you'll
get is explosions.


> [Note that I added rec.food.preserving to the newsgroups.]

Much obliged.

"Mark Thorson" wrote:
> Melba's Jammin' wrote:
>
> > Sure, inasmuch as it could work as a container. They probably
> > won't spoil in that length of time in transit. Doing it right,
> > though, it would be properly canned and processed and
> > sent that way -- no spoilage. A vacuum seal via a Tilia
> > is not a substitute for proper heat processing.
>
> Yeah, but the Seal-A-Meal bags can be boiled. What if
> you sealed the food in bags, then subjected them to heat
> and pressure in a pressure cooker, the same time and
> temperature used for canning in Mason jars. Wouldn't
> that be completely safe?

No. Jars being pressure canned or water bath canned are not sealed *before*
processing. Air leaves jars during processing, and that vacuum creates the
seal when processing is over. If you try to process sealed bags, all you'll
get is explosions.


> [Note that I added rec.food.preserving to the newsgroups.]

Much obliged.

"Mark Thorson" wrote:
> Melba's Jammin' wrote:
>
> > Sure, inasmuch as it could work as a container. They probably
> > won't spoil in that length of time in transit. Doing it right,
> > though, it would be properly canned and processed and
> > sent that way -- no spoilage. A vacuum seal via a Tilia
> > is not a substitute for proper heat processing.
>
> Yeah, but the Seal-A-Meal bags can be boiled. What if
> you sealed the food in bags, then subjected them to heat
> and pressure in a pressure cooker, the same time and
> temperature used for canning in Mason jars. Wouldn't
> that be completely safe?

No. Jars being pressure canned or water bath canned are not sealed *before*
processing. Air leaves jars during processing, and that vacuum creates the
seal when processing is over. If you try to process sealed bags, all you'll
get is explosions.


> [Note that I added rec.food.preserving to the newsgroups.]

Much obliged.

pennyaline wrote:

> If you try to process sealed bags, all you'll
> get is explosions.

That's why you use a pressure cooker.

Ever wonder how food sealed in metal cans is
sterilized without exploding? They do it in large
pressure cookers (called "retorts").

pennyaline wrote:

> If you try to process sealed bags, all you'll
> get is explosions.

That's why you use a pressure cooker.

Ever wonder how food sealed in metal cans is
sterilized without exploding? They do it in large
pressure cookers (called "retorts").

pennyaline wrote:

> If you try to process sealed bags, all you'll
> get is explosions.

That's why you use a pressure cooker.

Ever wonder how food sealed in metal cans is
sterilized without exploding? They do it in large
pressure cookers (called "retorts").

In article >, says...
> pennyaline wrote:
>
> > If you try to process sealed bags, all you'll
> > get is explosions.
>
> That's why you use a pressure cooker.
>
> Ever wonder how food sealed in metal cans is
> sterilized without exploding? They do it in large
> pressure cookers (called "retorts").
>
And it's before they're sealed, by the way.

In article >, says...
> pennyaline wrote:
>
> > If you try to process sealed bags, all you'll
> > get is explosions.
>
> That's why you use a pressure cooker.
>
> Ever wonder how food sealed in metal cans is
> sterilized without exploding? They do it in large
> pressure cookers (called "retorts").
>
And it's before they're sealed, by the way.

In article >, says...
> pennyaline wrote:
>
> > If you try to process sealed bags, all you'll
> > get is explosions.
>
> That's why you use a pressure cooker.
>
> Ever wonder how food sealed in metal cans is
> sterilized without exploding? They do it in large
> pressure cookers (called "retorts").
>
And it's before they're sealed, by the way.

wrote:

> > Ever wonder how food sealed in metal cans is
> > sterilized without exploding? They do it in large
> > pressure cookers (called "retorts").
> >
> And it's before they're sealed, by the way.

You don't know what you're talking about.
The cans are sealed first, then heat-sterilized
in a retort.

http://www.simplot.com.au/Hosting/co...+facts.canning

Once cans are sealed they must be processed as soon
as possible. The usual heat transfer fluids a
saturated steam
water
steam - air mixture

http://www.mcc.org/getinv/canning/recipe.html

Scoop out as much juice as possible and save in the
broth vat (to be canned later). Scoop meat into
28 oz cans; press meat tightly into the can. Seal the
cans with a sealing unit. Cook for 2 hours in a retort
steam cooker at 242 degrees. Cool cans in water
bath for 30 minutes. Remove from water bath, wash
grease from can and apply label with glue.

http://www.austehc.unimelb.edu.au/tia/084.html

At first the sanitary cans were processed in boiling
water baths, i.e., at 100oC (212°F) or in brine baths
at higher temperatures, as had been done since
Stefan Goldner introduced them in 1841. At these
higher temperatures, however, the lighter tinplate
tended to explode but the steam pressure in a retort
prevented this and it was not long before retorting
became general.

Mark Thorson wrote:
> You don't know what you're talking about.


You forget to take your lithium (again)? Talk to your doctor please.

There are much more effective ways to get your point across, but I see that you
are being your normal (unmedicated) self again.

;-)

Mark Thorson wrote:
> You don't know what you're talking about.


You forget to take your lithium (again)? Talk to your doctor please.

There are much more effective ways to get your point across, but I see that you
are being your normal (unmedicated) self again.

;-)

In article >, says...
> wrote:
>=20
> > > Ever wonder how food sealed in metal cans is
> > > sterilized without exploding? They do it in large
> > > pressure cookers (called "retorts").
> > >
> > And it's before they're sealed, by the way.
>=20
> You don't know what you're talking about.
> The cans are sealed first, then heat-sterilized
> in a retort.
>=20
> http://www.simplot.com.au/Hosting/co...d+facts.canni=
ng
>=20
> Once cans are sealed they must be processed as soon
> as possible. The usual heat transfer fluids a
> saturated steam
> water
> steam - air mixture
>=20
> http://www.mcc.org/getinv/canning/recipe.html
>=20
> Scoop out as much juice as possible and save in the
> broth vat (to be canned later). Scoop meat into
> 28 oz cans; press meat tightly into the can. Seal the
> cans with a sealing unit. Cook for 2 hours in a retort
> steam cooker at 242 degrees. Cool cans in water
> bath for 30 minutes. Remove from water bath, wash
> grease from can and apply label with glue.
>=20
> http://www.austehc.unimelb.edu.au/tia/084.html
>=20
> At first the sanitary cans were processed in boiling
> water baths, i.e., at 100oC (212=B0F) or in brine baths
> at higher temperatures, as had been done since
> Stefan Goldner introduced them in 1841. At these
> higher temperatures, however, the lighter tinplate
> tended to explode but the steam pressure in a retort
> prevented this and it was not long before retorting
> became general.
>=20
Thanks for the info, Mark. =20

When I was a kid, my mother used to literally "can" things, and I could=20
swear that she handled the metal cans and lids the same way she handled=20
the Mason jars and lids; that is, pressure cooking them in a big canning=20
cooker on top of the stove before sealing. =20

For the cans there was a big crank-operated device clamped to the=20
kitchen table that (I believe) crimped the can and lid together. The=20
glass jars just had lids set on them with a threaded metal ring lightly=20
screwed down to keep the lid in contact with the lip of the jar until=20
the vacuum formed, then the rings came off.

As I recall, there were more than a few failures with the cans (bulging=20
and leaking for whatever reason), and in the latter years of her home=20
preserving career, she used glass jars only. If my memories about the=20
process are accurate, then perhaps the difference is home canning vs.=20
commercial canning in the retorts you described. Or maybe the memory is=20
acting up again...

Anyway, interesting articles. =20

Bob

In article >, says...
> wrote:
>=20
> > > Ever wonder how food sealed in metal cans is
> > > sterilized without exploding? They do it in large
> > > pressure cookers (called "retorts").
> > >
> > And it's before they're sealed, by the way.
>=20
> You don't know what you're talking about.
> The cans are sealed first, then heat-sterilized
> in a retort.
>=20
> http://www.simplot.com.au/Hosting/co...d+facts.canni=
ng
>=20
> Once cans are sealed they must be processed as soon
> as possible. The usual heat transfer fluids a
> saturated steam
> water
> steam - air mixture
>=20
> http://www.mcc.org/getinv/canning/recipe.html
>=20
> Scoop out as much juice as possible and save in the
> broth vat (to be canned later). Scoop meat into
> 28 oz cans; press meat tightly into the can. Seal the
> cans with a sealing unit. Cook for 2 hours in a retort
> steam cooker at 242 degrees. Cool cans in water
> bath for 30 minutes. Remove from water bath, wash
> grease from can and apply label with glue.
>=20
> http://www.austehc.unimelb.edu.au/tia/084.html
>=20
> At first the sanitary cans were processed in boiling
> water baths, i.e., at 100oC (212=B0F) or in brine baths
> at higher temperatures, as had been done since
> Stefan Goldner introduced them in 1841. At these
> higher temperatures, however, the lighter tinplate
> tended to explode but the steam pressure in a retort
> prevented this and it was not long before retorting
> became general.
>=20
Thanks for the info, Mark. =20

When I was a kid, my mother used to literally "can" things, and I could=20
swear that she handled the metal cans and lids the same way she handled=20
the Mason jars and lids; that is, pressure cooking them in a big canning=20
cooker on top of the stove before sealing. =20

For the cans there was a big crank-operated device clamped to the=20
kitchen table that (I believe) crimped the can and lid together. The=20
glass jars just had lids set on them with a threaded metal ring lightly=20
screwed down to keep the lid in contact with the lip of the jar until=20
the vacuum formed, then the rings came off.

As I recall, there were more than a few failures with the cans (bulging=20
and leaking for whatever reason), and in the latter years of her home=20
preserving career, she used glass jars only. If my memories about the=20
process are accurate, then perhaps the difference is home canning vs.=20
commercial canning in the retorts you described. Or maybe the memory is=20
acting up again...

Anyway, interesting articles. =20

Bob

In article >, says...
> wrote:
>=20
> > > Ever wonder how food sealed in metal cans is
> > > sterilized without exploding? They do it in large
> > > pressure cookers (called "retorts").
> > >
> > And it's before they're sealed, by the way.
>=20
> You don't know what you're talking about.
> The cans are sealed first, then heat-sterilized
> in a retort.
>=20
> http://www.simplot.com.au/Hosting/co...d+facts.canni=
ng
>=20
> Once cans are sealed they must be processed as soon
> as possible. The usual heat transfer fluids a
> saturated steam
> water
> steam - air mixture
>=20
> http://www.mcc.org/getinv/canning/recipe.html
>=20
> Scoop out as much juice as possible and save in the
> broth vat (to be canned later). Scoop meat into
> 28 oz cans; press meat tightly into the can. Seal the
> cans with a sealing unit. Cook for 2 hours in a retort
> steam cooker at 242 degrees. Cool cans in water
> bath for 30 minutes. Remove from water bath, wash
> grease from can and apply label with glue.
>=20
> http://www.austehc.unimelb.edu.au/tia/084.html
>=20
> At first the sanitary cans were processed in boiling
> water baths, i.e., at 100oC (212=B0F) or in brine baths
> at higher temperatures, as had been done since
> Stefan Goldner introduced them in 1841. At these
> higher temperatures, however, the lighter tinplate
> tended to explode but the steam pressure in a retort
> prevented this and it was not long before retorting
> became general.
>=20
Thanks for the info, Mark. =20

When I was a kid, my mother used to literally "can" things, and I could=20
swear that she handled the metal cans and lids the same way she handled=20
the Mason jars and lids; that is, pressure cooking them in a big canning=20
cooker on top of the stove before sealing. =20

For the cans there was a big crank-operated device clamped to the=20
kitchen table that (I believe) crimped the can and lid together. The=20
glass jars just had lids set on them with a threaded metal ring lightly=20
screwed down to keep the lid in contact with the lip of the jar until=20
the vacuum formed, then the rings came off.

As I recall, there were more than a few failures with the cans (bulging=20
and leaking for whatever reason), and in the latter years of her home=20
preserving career, she used glass jars only. If my memories about the=20
process are accurate, then perhaps the difference is home canning vs.=20
commercial canning in the retorts you described. Or maybe the memory is=20
acting up again...

Anyway, interesting articles. =20

Bob

"Mark Thorson" wrote:
> Ever wonder how food sealed in metal cans is
> sterilized without exploding? They do it in large
> pressure cookers (called "retorts").

You asked about plastic bags. I responded about plastic bags. Now it's as if
you really meant metal. Gosh, it's impossible to respond correctly to
anything you ask, isn't it.

Decide what you want to talk about, then let us know. We'll try to follow
along silently.

Meanwhile, on with the show!

"Mark Thorson" wrote:
> Ever wonder how food sealed in metal cans is
> sterilized without exploding? They do it in large
> pressure cookers (called "retorts").

You asked about plastic bags. I responded about plastic bags. Now it's as if
you really meant metal. Gosh, it's impossible to respond correctly to
anything you ask, isn't it.

Decide what you want to talk about, then let us know. We'll try to follow
along silently.

Meanwhile, on with the show!

"Mark Thorson" wrote:
> Ever wonder how food sealed in metal cans is
> sterilized without exploding? They do it in large
> pressure cookers (called "retorts").

You asked about plastic bags. I responded about plastic bags. Now it's as if
you really meant metal. Gosh, it's impossible to respond correctly to
anything you ask, isn't it.

Decide what you want to talk about, then let us know. We'll try to follow
along silently.

Meanwhile, on with the show!

pennyaline wrote:

> You asked about plastic bags. I responded about plastic bags.
> Now it's as if you really meant metal. Gosh, it's impossible to
> respond correctly to anything you ask, isn't it.

You brought up explosions, and I explained why explosions
are a non-issue, mentioning the way cans are processed
as an example of how this issue is dealt with. To prevent
explosions, you sterilize with heat under pressure.

Are you really so dense that you can't understand this
simple concept?

pennyaline wrote:

> You asked about plastic bags. I responded about plastic bags.
> Now it's as if you really meant metal. Gosh, it's impossible to
> respond correctly to anything you ask, isn't it.

You brought up explosions, and I explained why explosions
are a non-issue, mentioning the way cans are processed
as an example of how this issue is dealt with. To prevent
explosions, you sterilize with heat under pressure.

Are you really so dense that you can't understand this
simple concept?

pennyaline wrote:

> You asked about plastic bags. I responded about plastic bags.
> Now it's as if you really meant metal. Gosh, it's impossible to
> respond correctly to anything you ask, isn't it.

You brought up explosions, and I explained why explosions
are a non-issue, mentioning the way cans are processed
as an example of how this issue is dealt with. To prevent
explosions, you sterilize with heat under pressure.

Are you really so dense that you can't understand this
simple concept?

On 2004-09-19, Mark Thorson > wrote:

> You don't know what you're talking about.
> The cans are sealed first, then heat-sterilized
> in a retort.

This is correct.

> higher temperatures, however, the lighter tinplate
> tended to explode but the steam pressure in a retort
> prevented this and it was not long before retorting
> became general.

I used to operate a commercial manual retort when I worked in a cannery in
Oregon back When I was still a pup. It was for short runs of special sized
cans, in this case, no. 10 cans, as we didn't have automatic rotary cookers
in that size. It was about 10-11 feet deep and about 8 feet in diameter.
Cans were loaded in larged perforated steel baskets and the baskets stacked
vertically, lifted by overhead electric hoist. When she was all sealed up
with 3 baskets (several hundred cans), the top was sealed and live steam
admitted. The temperature and pressure was raised to the required specs (I
forget) and kept there for the required time. As soon as the cook cycle was
completed the steam was shut off and cool water was pumped in to cool the
cans. Since the cold water immediately condensed the steam and drastically
dropped any remaining pressure, the now heated cans could explode before the
cold water could cool the contents of the can. To prevent this, we had to
manually admit cold water and high air pressure in a careful balance to
maintain enough pressure in the retort to prevent the cans exploding or even
bulging. When the internal temp dropped low enough, we vented the whole
thing and drained the water and pulled the baskets.

Oh yeah, they were pickled beets. That's were I learned to love 'em.

nb