Is anyone else running into a lot of crap Kerr jars and lids? By a lot,
I mean one or more. :-0)

I have had at least five lid failures this year -- maybe my own doing
but I don't see how.

I'm going to call Kerr and complain. Stay tuned.

--
-Barb, Mother Superior, HOSSSPoJ
http://web.mac.com/barbschaller , blahblahblog is back and
is being updated quite regularly now, most recently 8-12-2008.
"rec.food.cooking Preserved Fruit Administrator
'Always in a jam. Never in a stew.'" - Evergene

Melba's Jammin' wrote:
> Is anyone else running into a lot of crap Kerr jars and lids? By a lot,
> I mean one or more. :-0)
>
> I have had at least five lid failures this year -- maybe my own doing
> but I don't see how.
>
> I'm going to call Kerr and complain. Stay tuned.
>
The only failure to seal I've had has been a Kerr lid, that was one out
of twelve in the box.

"Melba's Jammin'" > wrote in message
...
> Is anyone else running into a lot of crap Kerr jars and lids? By a lot,
> I mean one or more. :-0)
>
> I have had at least five lid failures this year -- maybe my own doing
> but I don't see how.
>
> I'm going to call Kerr and complain. Stay tuned.
>

I haven't used any Kerr lids this year -- I bought several boxes of Ball
ones on sale at Wal-mart last year and are still using them up. I need
more, so am glad for the heads-up -- I'll be sure not to buy Kerr ones.

On a sort of related note, I remember that last year some of us were
complaining about problems getting jellies and jams to gel. I know in my
case I had used Ball Liquid Pectin, and I think one or more others who had
problems also used the Ball product.

Apparently it wasn't just me (or us, if my recollection of others having
problems is accurate). This year the Ball pectin package has a statement
saying that it is improved to yield a better set.

Anny

I don't think I've had a single lid fail this year--all Kerr. I will
say that I bought some Golden Harvest lids at Dollar General a few
years back and noticed that I had a few of those fail. Might have
been me, might have been the lids. I haven't even had time this year
to go see if they have any. They were $1/box of 12, no rings. Which
isn't too bad price wise. The last jar of anything @ my house always
goes in the fridge (after cooling) with a plastic storage lid to eat
right away. Maybe that last jar would be the lid 4 me that was
supposed to fail??? (and it never gets the chance)

: - )

In article >,
Melba's Jammin' > wrote:

> Is anyone else running into a lot of crap Kerr jars and lids? By a lot,
> I mean one or more. :-0)
>
> I have had at least five lid failures this year -- maybe my own doing
> but I don't see how.
>
> I'm going to call Kerr and complain. Stay tuned.

I had a Kerr lid fail just yesterday BUT i might have left too much head
space. It was one of those situations where I had just slightly under
enough for that last jar. It was jam with nearly an inch of headspace;
I knew going it that it was a maybe. I just stuck it in the fridge. It
had great company there with all the other partially filled jars I put
up recently.

Isabella
--
"I will show you fear in a handful of dust"
-T.S. Eliot

"Melba's Jammin'" > wrote in message
...
> Is anyone else running into a lot of crap Kerr jars and lids? By a lot,
> I mean one or more. :-0)
>
> I have had at least five lid failures this year -- maybe my own doing
> but I don't see how.
>
> I'm going to call Kerr and complain. Stay tuned.

YES!!!!!!!!!! I've got a "failure-to-seal" of about 1 in 10 jars. It's very
aggravating to say the least.

>
> --
> -Barb, Mother Superior, HOSSSPoJ
> http://web.mac.com/barbschaller , blahblahblog is back and
> is being updated quite regularly now, most recently 8-12-2008.
> "rec.food.cooking Preserved Fruit Administrator
> 'Always in a jam. Never in a stew.'" - Evergene

"Anny Middon" > wrote in message
...
> "Melba's Jammin'" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Is anyone else running into a lot of crap Kerr jars and lids? By a lot,
>> I mean one or more. :-0)
>>
>> I have had at least five lid failures this year -- maybe my own doing
>> but I don't see how.
>>
>> I'm going to call Kerr and complain. Stay tuned.
>>
>
> I haven't used any Kerr lids this year -- I bought several boxes of Ball
> ones on sale at Wal-mart last year and are still using them up. I need
> more, so am glad for the heads-up -- I'll be sure not to buy Kerr ones.

Both Kerr and Ball and I believe Golden Harvest are all owned by Jardin
(sp?) now. That Co. makes them all so one will be as good or as bad as the
other.

> On a sort of related note, I remember that last year some of us were
> complaining about problems getting jellies and jams to gel. I know in my
> case I had used Ball Liquid Pectin, and I think one or more others who had
> problems also used the Ball product.
>
> Apparently it wasn't just me (or us, if my recollection of others having
> problems is accurate). This year the Ball pectin package has a statement
> saying that it is improved to yield a better set.
>
> Anny
>
>

"Melba's Jammin'" > wrote in message
...
> Is anyone else running into a lot of crap Kerr jars and lids? By a lot,
> I mean one or more. :-0)
>
> I have had at least five lid failures this year -- maybe my own doing
> but I don't see how.
>
> I'm going to call Kerr and complain. Stay tuned.
>

When I first started canning seriously a few years ago I ran into this
and investigated it and fixed it (I think, knock on wood). This is what
I found out:

1) Historically Ball and Kerr jars have a different dimension from the
top of the jar to the end of the last thread on the top. There are
differences in the rings, too. The ball rings have the correct dimension
to the ball jars, and the kerr rings have the correct dimension to the
kerr jars. You can use the kerr rings on either jar but you can't use
the ball rings on the kerr jars.

Of vis-versa, I can't remember. You can see the difference by
experimenting by threading rings on the jars without the lids. If
you try different jars you will see that on the "wrong" pair, that even
when you screw the rings down all the way, the ring will not bottom
on the top of the jar, there will be a gap.

The one kind of rings have a bulge that goes around the top, the
other kind (kerr I think) are more flat on the top. The flat ones
are the ones with the smaller dimension.

I use the flat ones on all my jars that are going into the canner.

For some insane reason, even though Jarden is now manufacturing
BOTH the Kerr and Ball jars, they have retained this slight difference.
For all I know the jar molds they are still using are 70 years old.

2) After repeated use the rings stretch a bit and the flat part on
the top will start to bend up. This is espically true on rings of
recent manufacture which appear to be thinner than the older
rings. When this happens the ring will not exert as much force
on the lid and the lid will be less likely to seal. You can carefully
bend the flat part back down with your thumb to fix this.

3) There are 5 failure modes on a fail-to-seal lid:

a) Too much pressure was used, and the jar glass pushed
all the way down through the sealing material and contacted
the steel of the lid. If you heat the lid and when it is hot, you
use a lot of force to really ream down on tightening the ring,
you can cause this to happen.

b) There was a chip in the glass jar sealing surface.

c) You used a new lid with a narrow sealing surface on an
old jar with a wide sealing surface, and the lid was not centered.

d) There was uneven pressure applied to the lid by the ring.

e) The sealing material on the lid had a gap or was too thin,
due to a manufacturing defect.

On the vast majority of fail-to-seals, it was the uneven pressure
problem. We can all screw down a jar lid. But, getting it
evenly screwed down, that's the trick.

4) Older jars (I use a lot of 1930's and 1940's jars in my canning
for the tradition and historical fun of it) have a wider glass sealing
surface. As a result it is harder to get adequate sealing pressure
because the PSI is lower on the sealing surface.

Older glass jars used thicker glass because they often had imperfections
and air bubbles in the glass which would weaken them if the glass
was too thin. New glass is created in temperature-controlled
ovens held to precise temps, and the manufacturing is so accurate
that they don't have this problem.

In my jar collection I have an older jar with an air bubble that
is literally the size of a silver dollar, which is entirely contained
in the wall of the jar, and the jar will hold water without leaking.
It is the coolest thing. I have never dared to use this for canning.

5) The instructions say hand tight but imperfections in the ring
and glass will not give you an even seal if you just screw them down
hand tight. What I do now is I screw them down as tight as I
can get them, (and I mean really tight) then I start to loosen them
until I get to about a quarter turn away from the breakaway
point. (the point at which the ring will become easy to
spin off.) You can practice doing this with an empty jar and
ring and lid. When you can tighten the ring down then remove
the ring and look at the lid seal and see an even impression
(it won't be very deep of course) of the glass jar all the way
around the sealing material, then you have it right. The impression
will go away in a while.

This procedure causes the ring to bed down on the lid and when
you loosen them, then the sealing pressure from the ring on to the lid is
even all around the seal, rather than being a lot of pressure on
one side, and a little on the other.

Incidentially, I do NOT heat the lids at all before doing this,
which I know is also contrary to the directions. The directions
say to heat the lids because that causes the sealing material to
soften, and they want it soft because they know that people
just doing the handtight thing will likely screw the ring down
further when it is soft. But, the problem is that getting the
lids hot is such a difficult to control variable that I realised it
was easier to control the lid tightening procedure when the
lids were always going to be at the same temp - room temp.
Also, when the seal is at room temp you cannot put enough
force on it to push the jar through the seal into the lid steel.

6) You can't put them in the canner with the lids on tight, they
will not seal. The air won't be squeezed out then when you
pull the jar there will be no vacuum.

7) If you look at very old lids and compare them to modern
lids you will note that the seal on the new lids is not as wide.
This does not matter much with new jars which all have very
narrow and rounded glass tops. It matters a lot if your using
older jars that have much wider, flatter glass tops. Particularly
with really old jars where they used a glass grinder to make
the ends of the glass jar flat. You have to be very careful to
make sure the lid is exactly centered when you screw down the
ring if your using modern lids on older jars.

In summary, what you are shooting for is to have an even
pressure entirely around the lid, exerted by the ring, but not
so much pressure that air cannot squeeze out. The optimal
pressure is when you put the jar into the bwb canner and
within about a second you immediately see air bubbles coming
out of the jar ring - but ONLY if the lid pressure is even all
around the jar. Which, with today's crap rings, is not easy to
obtain.

The highest vacuum is going to be one in which the lid is
only pressed against the jar with a few PSI. Because
the most amount of air is going to be squeezed out. Those
are the ones where the lids are hard as heck to pull off,
and when you look at the seal you will see the jar has
very deeply embedded itself into the seal. But, the
problem is that this only works when the seal around the
entire jar is even, the SAME psi. That isn't easy to obtain.

I am willing to trade off a slightly lower vacuum
in the jar for positive assurance that the ring will seal,
that is why I developed my technique. It seems to work. :-)

One last thing, espically if your a newbie canner who is
having a lot of lid failures and don't have the knack of
getting the lid down right yet. There is a "cheater" way
of guarenteeing a seal but it only works in a BWB canner.
What you do is run your full process time then
when you go to pull the jars out of the canner, pull a
jar out, IMMEDIATELY tighten the lid a bit more, then
plunk it back down in the water for another minute. The jar
should not be out of the water for longer than 2-3 seconds.

Ted

Mimi wrote:
> I don't think I've had a single lid fail this year--all Kerr. I will
> say that I bought some Golden Harvest lids at Dollar General a few
> years back and noticed that I had a few of those fail. Might have
> been me, might have been the lids. I haven't even had time this year
> to go see if they have any. They were $1/box of 12, no rings. Which
> isn't too bad price wise.


Wow! The last lids I got at Big Lots were Golden Harvest, regular size,
and were 69 cents a box. I bought 10 boxes and used the last of them
last fall. Haven't seen any since then. Never thought of trying Dollar
General, we've got four or five in our town.

The last jar of anything @ my house always
> goes in the fridge (after cooling) with a plastic storage lid to eat
> right away. Maybe that last jar would be the lid 4 me that was
> supposed to fail??? (and it never gets the chance)
>
> : - )

"Marie Dodge" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Anny Middon" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Melba's Jammin'" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Is anyone else running into a lot of crap Kerr jars and lids? By a lot,
>>> I mean one or more. :-0)
>>>
>>> I have had at least five lid failures this year -- maybe my own doing
>>> but I don't see how.
>>>
>>> I'm going to call Kerr and complain. Stay tuned.
>>>
>>
>> I haven't used any Kerr lids this year -- I bought several boxes of Ball
>> ones on sale at Wal-mart last year and are still using them up. I need
>> more, so am glad for the heads-up -- I'll be sure not to buy Kerr ones.
>
> Both Kerr and Ball and I believe Golden Harvest are all owned by Jardin
> (sp?) now. That Co. makes them all so one will be as good or as bad as the
> other.
>

Historically the Ball lid made by Jardin used white paint on the inside of
the lid to prevent the food contents from rusting the lid, and the Kerr
lids made by Jardin use clear polyurethane to perform the same function,
ie: the inside of the Kerr lid is golden in color.

As far as I can tell this is done for purely historical marketing reasons
because some people feel that the coating on one lid is better than the
other and Jardin knows better than to bother a sleeping dog.

But it -is- pretty clear to me that over the years Jardin's accountants
have been nickel-and-diming the sealing material to save money, making
it thinner and the strip itself narrower. They shaved probably a few
mils off the thickness and the strip is a couple mm narrower. I would guess
the savings add up to .000000001 cents per lid. :-/ They also used to
stamp impress the Kerr and Ball name on the lid and now they just
print them, I guess that saved another .000000001 cents per lid. And
they also redesigned the graphic on the Ball lid to make it less pretty and
more boring looking, thus making the printing simpler, saving another
..0000001 cents per lid.

No doubt some executive got a million dollar bonus over those ones.

What I can't figure out for the life of me is why in blazes that Jardin
has a lock on this market. There are hundreds of glass jar manufacturers
out there who make commercial glass jars and commercial lids that spin
on with the industry standard 1/4 and 1/2 turn, all competing with each
other.
And you can take the lid off a commercially canned pickle jar and see
how much thicker the steel is in it and how much higher quality the
sealing strip is.

It would seem to me that the time is ripe for one of the commercial
jar manufacturers to package their product for retail sale and make
their one piece lids available for retail sale for home canning, and give
Jardin a run for their money. Certainly at the volumes they produce
they could easily undercut Jardin and still make a profit.

I wonder if this is all a plot at Jarden to get us to move to those
super expensive "Ball Collection Elite Platinum" lids that are just
plain steel with a poly coat, no color anodization. It's the old story
of introduce a cheaper replacement product, label it with a more
expensive-sounding name, then make the existing product cruddier
and cruddier over the following years so that it becomes unusable and
you have to go to the more expensive product that gives you less.

Ted

In article >,
"Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote:

> What I can't figure out for the life of me is why in blazes that Jardin
> has a lock on this market. There are hundreds of glass jar manufacturers
> out there who make commercial glass jars and commercial lids that spin
> on with the industry standard 1/4 and 1/2 turn, all competing with each
> other.

> Ted

Sure there are but nobody else markets to the home consumer, Ted. I
don't know why, but you know they don't. Maybe it has to do with
distribution. IdaKnow.

--
-Barb, Mother Superior, HOSSSPoJ
http://web.mac.com/barbschaller , blahblahblog is back and
most recently updated today, 8-14-2008.
"rec.food.cooking Preserved Fruit Administrator
'Always in a jam. Never in a stew.'" - Evergene

In article >,
"Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote:

> I wonder if this is all a plot at Jarden to get us to move to those
> super expensive "Ball Collection Elite Platinum" lids that are just
> plain steel with a poly coat, no color anodization. It's the old story
> of introduce a cheaper replacement product, label it with a more
> expensive-sounding name, then make the existing product cruddier
> and cruddier over the following years so that it becomes unusable and
> you have to go to the more expensive product that gives you less.
>
> Ted

My Fair intake ladies politely asked me to please not use those jars
(they refer to them as flat jars) because they take up too much room in
the display case and they like to display as many of the entries as they
are able to. I can think of one woman there who would be apoplectic
over it if it came to eliminating the taller jars. I have some old Ball
and Kerr jars that are squareround and round -- wide mouth openings.

--
-Barb, Mother Superior, HOSSSPoJ
http://web.mac.com/barbschaller , blahblahblog is back and
most recently updated today, 8-14-2008.
"rec.food.cooking Preserved Fruit Administrator
'Always in a jam. Never in a stew.'" - Evergene

"Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote in message
...
>

Brevity snips........

> I wonder if this is all a plot at Jarden to get us to move to those
> super expensive "Ball Collection Elite Platinum" lids that are just
> plain steel with a poly coat, no color anodization. It's the old story
> of introduce a cheaper replacement product, label it with a more
> expensive-sounding name, then make the existing product cruddier
> and cruddier over the following years so that it becomes unusable and
> you have to go to the more expensive product that gives you less.
>

I agree with all you said. Before I switch to the more expensive "Platinum"
lids I'll give up canning. I too can't understand why others don't produce
jars and lids for canners. Maybe they see canning as a dying art with no
future in it for them. Start-up costs are high and they wont take the
chance.

"George Shirley" > wrote in message
...
> Mimi wrote:
>> I don't think I've had a single lid fail this year--all Kerr. I will
>> say that I bought some Golden Harvest lids at Dollar General a few
>> years back and noticed that I had a few of those fail. Might have
>> been me, might have been the lids. I haven't even had time this year
>> to go see if they have any. They were $1/box of 12, no rings. Which
>> isn't too bad price wise.
>
>
> Wow! The last lids I got at Big Lots were Golden Harvest, regular size,
> and were 69 cents a box. I bought 10 boxes and used the last of them last
> fall. Haven't seen any since then. Never thought of trying Dollar General,
> we've got four or five in our town.
>

Our Dollar General stores carry the jars but not the lids.

<snip>....I wonder if this is all a plot at Jarden to get us to move
to those
super expensive "Ball Collection Elite Platinum" lids...<snip> Ted

<snip>...politely asked me to please not use those jars (they refer to
them as flat jars)...<snip> Barb

IMHO, I think the new Elite jars are, well, ugly. I just don't like
them. (and they are more costly in comparison to the same sized
traditional jars) A friend gave me a partial box of half-pints, she
had only used one jar for storage or something (she doesn't can) and
gave me the rest. I did use the remaining three and remember
distinctly telling the three lucky recipients to enjoy the contents
but, not to bother returning the jars...

<snip>...In my jar collection...<snip> Ted

I collect too!!!

: - )

"Melba's Jammin'" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote:
>
> > I wonder if this is all a plot at Jarden to get us to move to those
> > super expensive "Ball Collection Elite Platinum" lids that are just
> > plain steel with a poly coat, no color anodization. It's the old story
> > of introduce a cheaper replacement product, label it with a more
> > expensive-sounding name, then make the existing product cruddier
> > and cruddier over the following years so that it becomes unusable and
> > you have to go to the more expensive product that gives you less.
> >
> > Ted
>
> My Fair intake ladies politely asked me to please not use those jars
> (they refer to them as flat jars) because they take up too much room in
> the display case and they like to display as many of the entries as they
> are able to. I can think of one woman there who would be apoplectic
> over it if it came to eliminating the taller jars. I have some old Ball
> and Kerr jars that are squareround and round -- wide mouth openings.
>

Just a bit of jar history,

The original Mason jars all were round - these were all blown by
hand, and a round jar is easier to make. These can be identified by
sprue breakoffs at the bottom. Most of these were wire-and-bale.

Later on, they were made by machine but they kept the traditional
round shape. Anything with lettering/numbering in the base was
machine-made.

Then in WWII, one of the war boards in it's quest for material savings
decreed that canning jars must be manufactured square. They felt that
the square jars would use less cardboard packaging for the same
amount of food. The official line was that square
jars saved a small amount of glass during the manufacture, but I believe
this is mathmatically false.

The square jars were unpopular with consumers, so after the war the
jar manufacturers went to the rounded/squarish shape, as a compromise
to the consumer, yet still retaining some of the cardboard packaging
savings.

Of course, today we don't even get much cardboard at all anymore
in the packaging. Also gone are the days when canning jars were
more interesting - does anyone remember the Bicentennial Mason
jars from 30 years ago?

Ted

"Melba's Jammin'" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote:
>
> > What I can't figure out for the life of me is why in blazes that Jardin
> > has a lock on this market. There are hundreds of glass jar
manufacturers
> > out there who make commercial glass jars and commercial lids that spin
> > on with the industry standard 1/4 and 1/2 turn, all competing with each
> > other.
>
> > Ted
>
> Sure there are but nobody else markets to the home consumer, Ted. I
> don't know why, but you know they don't. Maybe it has to do with
> distribution. IdaKnow.
>

I think that with grocery bills rising as a result of fuel increases
that more and more people are canning.

3 years ago I was able to find a fair number of canning
jars at Goodwill. This last year though I've found a grand total
of about 10 1/2 pints. Even the quart jars aren't common anymore.

And in the supermarket display cases where the stores put the jars,
the shelves are often empty which is another new one.

A couple years ago I also was able to pick up old jars in the free
section on craigslist. Nowadays, nothing. What I see on craigslist
these days is people listing Mason jars as sweetners for their
garage sale advertisements. And the few garage sales I've stopped
at I've asked the sellers about jars and they tell me that they
sold out of their Mason jars almost as soon as they opened.

3 years ago I was able to buy boxes and boxes of lids 1/2 price
on closeout at Walmart in Sept. when Wallyworld wanted to clear
their inventory.

Last fall though, nothing. They sold completely out of jars, lids,
and pectin in late August.

Of course this isn't any kind of scientific study but my gut feeling
is that there's more canning activity, at least in this area.

Ted

On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 23:20:07 -0700, "Ted Mittelstaedt"
> wrote:

>
>"Melba's Jammin'" > wrote in message
...
>> In article >,
>> "Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote:
>>
>> > What I can't figure out for the life of me is why in blazes that Jardin
>> > has a lock on this market. There are hundreds of glass jar
>manufacturers
>> > out there who make commercial glass jars and commercial lids that spin
>> > on with the industry standard 1/4 and 1/2 turn, all competing with each
>> > other.
>>
>> > Ted
>>
>> Sure there are but nobody else markets to the home consumer, Ted. I
>> don't know why, but you know they don't. Maybe it has to do with
>> distribution. IdaKnow.
>>
>
>I think that with grocery bills rising as a result of fuel increases
>that more and more people are canning.
>

A company can't just decide today to start doing canning jars. It
takes time and resources to start a new endeavor, even a new line of
your current product. To say nothing about getting a new distribution
system set up. Do the commercial jars adhere to the canning
requirements? Are you able to use canning lids on them?

They may also feel that by the time they got something going, the
canning fad would be over. Of course Ball, etc can up their
production much faster than anyone can start a new venture.


>3 years ago I was able to find a fair number of canning
>jars at Goodwill. This last year though I've found a grand total
>of about 10 1/2 pints. Even the quart jars aren't common anymore.
>
>And in the supermarket display cases where the stores put the jars,
>the shelves are often empty which is another new one.
>
>A couple years ago I also was able to pick up old jars in the free
>section on craigslist. Nowadays, nothing. What I see on craigslist
>these days is people listing Mason jars as sweetners for their
>garage sale advertisements. And the few garage sales I've stopped
>at I've asked the sellers about jars and they tell me that they
>sold out of their Mason jars almost as soon as they opened.
>
>3 years ago I was able to buy boxes and boxes of lids 1/2 price
>on closeout at Walmart in Sept. when Wallyworld wanted to clear
>their inventory.
>
>Last fall though, nothing. They sold completely out of jars, lids,
>and pectin in late August.
>
>Of course this isn't any kind of scientific study but my gut feeling
>is that there's more canning activity, at least in this area.

It is also possible that many of the older women who used to can have
stopped and already gotten rid of their jars. And others like me are
getting more because we were running out.

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
> "Melba's Jammin'" > wrote in message
> ...
>> In article >,
>> "Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote:
>>
>>> I wonder if this is all a plot at Jarden to get us to move to those
>>> super expensive "Ball Collection Elite Platinum" lids that are just
>>> plain steel with a poly coat, no color anodization. It's the old story
>>> of introduce a cheaper replacement product, label it with a more
>>> expensive-sounding name, then make the existing product cruddier
>>> and cruddier over the following years so that it becomes unusable and
>>> you have to go to the more expensive product that gives you less.
>>>
>>> Ted
>> My Fair intake ladies politely asked me to please not use those jars
>> (they refer to them as flat jars) because they take up too much room in
>> the display case and they like to display as many of the entries as they
>> are able to. I can think of one woman there who would be apoplectic
>> over it if it came to eliminating the taller jars. I have some old Ball
>> and Kerr jars that are squareround and round -- wide mouth openings.
>>
>
> Just a bit of jar history,
>
> The original Mason jars all were round - these were all blown by
> hand, and a round jar is easier to make. These can be identified by
> sprue breakoffs at the bottom. Most of these were wire-and-bale.
>
> Later on, they were made by machine but they kept the traditional
> round shape. Anything with lettering/numbering in the base was
> machine-made.
>
> Then in WWII, one of the war boards in it's quest for material savings
> decreed that canning jars must be manufactured square. They felt that
> the square jars would use less cardboard packaging for the same
> amount of food. The official line was that square
> jars saved a small amount of glass during the manufacture, but I believe
> this is mathmatically false.
>
> The square jars were unpopular with consumers, so after the war the
> jar manufacturers went to the rounded/squarish shape, as a compromise
> to the consumer, yet still retaining some of the cardboard packaging
> savings.
>
> Of course, today we don't even get much cardboard at all anymore
> in the packaging. Also gone are the days when canning jars were
> more interesting - does anyone remember the Bicentennial Mason
> jars from 30 years ago?
>
> Ted
>
>
Yeah, I'm still using some of them.

On Aug 16, 7:33 am, George Shirley > wrote:
> Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
> > "Melba's Jammin'" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> In article >,
> >> "Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote:
>
> >>> I wonder if this is all a plot at Jarden to get us to move to those
> >>> super expensive "Ball Collection Elite Platinum" lids that are just
> >>> plain steel with a poly coat, no color anodization. It's the old story
> >>> of introduce a cheaper replacement product, label it with a more
> >>> expensive-sounding name, then make the existing product cruddier
> >>> and cruddier over the following years so that it becomes unusable and
> >>> you have to go to the more expensive product that gives you less.
>
> >>> Ted

It's been a while since I made jam and I seem to have missed
something. I don't use paraffin anymore, replaced by reused jam and
sauce jars. I used glass and rubber rings because I have a nice jar.
Now it seems these are all verboten and I need to use a water bath to
sterilize my sterile jars and product. I don't make a lot of jam, but
I have never had a failure. Then again if the reused lids are
damaged, I don't use them.

I'm wondering if the two piece lids and water bath are overkill for
jams and jellies. I'm pretty sure it works well for Ball et all.

ljp wrote:
> On Aug 16, 7:33 am, George Shirley > wrote:
>> Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
>>> "Melba's Jammin'" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> In article >,
>>>> "Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote:
>>>>> I wonder if this is all a plot at Jarden to get us to move to those
>>>>> super expensive "Ball Collection Elite Platinum" lids that are just
>>>>> plain steel with a poly coat, no color anodization. It's the old story
>>>>> of introduce a cheaper replacement product, label it with a more
>>>>> expensive-sounding name, then make the existing product cruddier
>>>>> and cruddier over the following years so that it becomes unusable and
>>>>> you have to go to the more expensive product that gives you less.
>>>>> Ted
>
> It's been a while since I made jam and I seem to have missed
> something. I don't use paraffin anymore, replaced by reused jam and
> sauce jars. I used glass and rubber rings because I have a nice jar.
> Now it seems these are all verboten and I need to use a water bath to
> sterilize my sterile jars and product. I don't make a lot of jam, but
> I have never had a failure. Then again if the reused lids are
> damaged, I don't use them.
>
> I'm wondering if the two piece lids and water bath are overkill for
> jams and jellies. I'm pretty sure it works well for Ball et all.
Not if you want your jams and jellies to be safe to eat and able to be
stored. Check out:
http://www.uga.edu/nchfp/index.html for more details and the reasons
behind proper, safe canning methods.

"ljp" > wrote in message
...
> On Aug 16, 7:33 am, George Shirley > wrote:
>> Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
>> > "Melba's Jammin'" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> In article >,
>> >> "Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote:
>>
>> >>> I wonder if this is all a plot at Jarden to get us to move to those
>> >>> super expensive "Ball Collection Elite Platinum" lids that are just
>> >>> plain steel with a poly coat, no color anodization. It's the old
>> >>> story
>> >>> of introduce a cheaper replacement product, label it with a more
>> >>> expensive-sounding name, then make the existing product cruddier
>> >>> and cruddier over the following years so that it becomes unusable and
>> >>> you have to go to the more expensive product that gives you less.
>>
>> >>> Ted
>
> It's been a while since I made jam and I seem to have missed
> something. I don't use paraffin anymore, replaced by reused jam and
> sauce jars. I used glass and rubber rings because I have a nice jar.
> Now it seems these are all verboten and I need to use a water bath to
> sterilize my sterile jars and product. I don't make a lot of jam, but
> I have never had a failure. Then again if the reused lids are
> damaged, I don't use them.
>
> I'm wondering if the two piece lids and water bath are overkill for
> jams and jellies. I'm pretty sure it works well for Ball et all.

I live in the high desert and having the jams & jellies secure & as
sterilized is important. It used to be if one found a bit of mold on jam,
one scooped it out. But later tests were shown that the mold fingers were
all the way thru the stuff. And I'm allergic to some molds. Our heat, even
in the house (Goddess forbid a power outage) might cause a failure in the
wax. Wax in my food is just icky anyhow.
Using the approved methods means I can keep the food longer that I worked
so hard to preserve.
Stick around, using the boiling water bath is not all that hard, and there
are adaptations for conditions.
Edrena

On Aug 16, 9:12 am, George Shirley > wrote:
> ljp wrote:
>
> > I'm wondering if the two piece lids and water bath are overkill for
> > jams and jellies. I'm pretty sure it works well for Ball et all.
>
> Not if you want your jams and jellies to be safe to eat and able to be
> stored. Check out:http://www.uga.edu/nchfp/index.htmlfor more details and the reasons
> behind proper, safe canning methods.

The argument for the double lid seems to be consistency which is
reasonable. However, it doesn't get into why glass and rubber rings
are unsafe. It would be nice to find instructions for the safe use of
same and cautions, rather than a prohibition. ie should they be
processed in a BWB.

ljp wrote:

>
> I'm wondering if the two piece lids and water bath are overkill for
> jams and jellies. I'm pretty sure it works well for Ball et all.



As a minimum with BWB or freezer jams I never, EVER open a jar that has
mold on top of the jam. This was fairly common with paraffin.

gloria p

"ljp" > wrote in message
...
> On Aug 16, 9:12 am, George Shirley > wrote:
> > ljp wrote:
> >
> > > I'm wondering if the two piece lids and water bath are overkill for
> > > jams and jellies. I'm pretty sure it works well for Ball et all.
> >
> > Not if you want your jams and jellies to be safe to eat and able to be
> > stored. Check out:http://www.uga.edu/nchfp/index.htmlfor more details
and the reasons
> > behind proper, safe canning methods.
>
> The argument for the double lid seems to be consistency which is
> reasonable. However, it doesn't get into why glass and rubber rings
> are unsafe. It would be nice to find instructions for the safe use of
> same and cautions, rather than a prohibition. ie should they be
> processed in a BWB.

Any high-PH food, like jam, if canned
and there is an air leak and the inside of the jar loses sterility, what
you get inside is a nice crop of mold. It's quite visible in the headspace
even before you take the top off the jar. Once the seal goes, they mold
as fast as a piece of fruit does that you would cut in half and leave in
the refrigerator. You don't get botulism, though.

I would assume that any -normal- person the second they tasted some
jam from a jar with a bad seal, they would think it tasted terrible and
be spitting it out, assuming that they were blind to the point that they
didn't notice the stinky sock smell or the white fuzz and black spots
all over the surface of the jam.

The unsafe part would be for the person who actually got past the
gag reflex and got the stuff down. Molds are a shotgun "food" if
there ever was one, reactions range from nothing to projectile
you-know-what coming out of both ends. It all depends on the
specie of mold that happened to become dominant in the jar and
how the victim's body reacts to it.

The traditional way of canning with the rubber rings and lids
(wire and bail) was to leave the jar, ring, gasket & glass
lid in boiling water, then when the jam was ready you quickly pulled
out the hot jar, and pulled the boiling jam off the stove, poured it
in, than banged down the bail and
gasket as quick as possible. The jam, being full of sugar, would
be above the boiling point of water and so presumably any air in the
headspace which was below the boiling point, would be heated above
the boiling point. You usually tried to have little headspace as possible
which would often mean extra jam squirting out and making a mess
when you banged down the bail

Of course, good luck with that if your jam happened to be very
frothy, none of this waiting for it to cool down then skimming off
the froth so that the jar contents are actually jam, and not froth.

The process is full of uncontrolled assumptions, and it's very tempting
to take shortcuts like pulling all the jars out of the water and letting
them sit for 10 minutes (cooling off, nasturally ) while you manipulated
the jam (which was also cooling off, of course) It's also tempting to
reuse rubber gaskets from year to year, which would of course crack
and become all hard, rather than buying new ones.

The rings + glass lids + gaskets were an improvement, as what
you did was you poured in the jam, screwed the lid down lightly,
then processed it in a BWB canner, then when done you pulled
out the jar and tightened the ring down. You also used a headspace,
same as you do with the 2 piece lids. However since the lid is
glass, there's none of this dimpling down or up on the lid nonsense to
indicate if the seal was good or not. Instead, you just stored the
jam away and checked it in a month and if the headspace wasn't full
of mold, you assume you have a good seal.

The thing is, to me both processes are rediculous. The 2 piece lid
design is simply a better design. With the cost of time to get the
fruit, time to make the jam, time to cook it down, not to mention
the raw cost of the sugar and energy to heat the jam, why on earth
would you want to fool with a canning method that if you lose seal
on a jar, the only way your going to know is if the contents rot a
month or so later, when you can't do anything about it.

If a 2 piece lid fails to seal, your going to know about it within a
few minutes of pulling it out of the BWB canner, whereupon you
can merely retighten the lid or replace the lid and reprocess the
jar right then, when the canner's at full boil. You don't lose the
contents at all.

Ted

"Gloria P" > wrote in message
. ..
> ljp wrote:
>
> >
> > I'm wondering if the two piece lids and water bath are overkill for
> > jams and jellies. I'm pretty sure it works well for Ball et all.
>
>
>
> As a minimum with BWB or freezer jams I never, EVER open a jar that has
> mold on top of the jam.

I do, otherwise it's kind of hard to dump the stuff down the sink and
clean out the jar.

Ted

"Marie Dodge" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Anny Middon" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Melba's Jammin'" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Is anyone else running into a lot of crap Kerr jars and lids? By a lot,
>>> I mean one or more. :-0)
>>>
>>> I have had at least five lid failures this year -- maybe my own doing
>>> but I don't see how.
>>>
>>> I'm going to call Kerr and complain. Stay tuned.
>>>
>>
>> I haven't used any Kerr lids this year -- I bought several boxes of Ball
>> ones on sale at Wal-mart last year and are still using them up. I need
>> more, so am glad for the heads-up -- I'll be sure not to buy Kerr ones.
>
> Both Kerr and Ball and I believe Golden Harvest are all owned by Jardin
> (sp?) now. That Co. makes them all so one will be as good or as bad as the
> other.
>

Not necessarily. Chances are pretty good each brand is made on a different
production line (if not in a different factory). It's perfectly possible
that the machine that puts on the rubbery sealant on the lids for the Kerr
product line is set to put on a slightly thinner coat.

My DH works for a company that makes high-speed filling equipment. It's
pretty common for a manufacturer to have quality problems with the products
from one line and not for another, even though they are similar products and
use the same equipment to manufacture them.

Anny

"Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Historically the Ball lid made by Jardin used white paint on the inside of
> the lid to prevent the food contents from rusting the lid, and the Kerr
> lids made by Jardin use clear polyurethane to perform the same function,
> ie: the inside of the Kerr lid is golden in color.
>
> As far as I can tell this is done for purely historical marketing reasons
> because some people feel that the coating on one lid is better than the
> other and Jardin knows better than to bother a sleeping dog.
>
> But it -is- pretty clear to me that over the years Jardin's accountants
> have been nickel-and-diming the sealing material to save money, making
> it thinner and the strip itself narrower. They shaved probably a few
> mils off the thickness and the strip is a couple mm narrower. I would
> guess
> the savings add up to .000000001 cents per lid. :-/ They also used to
> stamp impress the Kerr and Ball name on the lid and now they just
> print them, I guess that saved another .000000001 cents per lid. And
> they also redesigned the graphic on the Ball lid to make it less pretty
> and
> more boring looking, thus making the printing simpler, saving another
> .0000001 cents per lid.
>
> No doubt some executive got a million dollar bonus over those ones.
>
> What I can't figure out for the life of me is why in blazes that Jardin
> has a lock on this market. There are hundreds of glass jar manufacturers
> out there who make commercial glass jars and commercial lids that spin
> on with the industry standard 1/4 and 1/2 turn, all competing with each
> other.
> And you can take the lid off a commercially canned pickle jar and see
> how much thicker the steel is in it and how much higher quality the
> sealing strip is.
>
> It would seem to me that the time is ripe for one of the commercial
> jar manufacturers to package their product for retail sale and make
> their one piece lids available for retail sale for home canning, and give
> Jardin a run for their money. Certainly at the volumes they produce
> they could easily undercut Jardin and still make a profit.
>

The problem is getting their products into the consumer-sales chain. It's a
totally different distribution, sales and marketing problem when consumers
are your customers rather than manufacturers.

For example, jars, rings and lids are often sold in grocery stores. Most
people don't know this, but in some parts of the country the manufacturer
(or distributor) pays the grocery store a fee for the shelf space in the
stores. Getting products on the shelf in these stores is more expensive
than in other parts of the country -- but getting grocers to give shelf
space for a product such as jars can be difficult in any part of the
country.

They coulkd of course sell lids on the internet -- but even though their
distribution problem would be solved, they'd have serious marketing
problems. They'd have to invest in new packaging equipment since consumers
are unlikley to want a case of a thousand lids delivered to their home.
Chances are good they'd not sell enough product to pay for the equipment
changes.

Anny





> I wonder if this is all a plot at Jarden to get us to move to those
> super expensive "Ball Collection Elite Platinum" lids that are just
> plain steel with a poly coat, no color anodization. It's the old story
> of introduce a cheaper replacement product, label it with a more
> expensive-sounding name, then make the existing product cruddier
> and cruddier over the following years so that it becomes unusable and
> you have to go to the more expensive product that gives you less.
>
> Ted
>

"Anny Middon" > wrote in message
...
> "Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > Historically the Ball lid made by Jardin used white paint on the inside
of
> > the lid to prevent the food contents from rusting the lid, and the Kerr
> > lids made by Jardin use clear polyurethane to perform the same function,
> > ie: the inside of the Kerr lid is golden in color.
> >
> > As far as I can tell this is done for purely historical marketing
reasons
> > because some people feel that the coating on one lid is better than the
> > other and Jardin knows better than to bother a sleeping dog.
> >
> > But it -is- pretty clear to me that over the years Jardin's accountants
> > have been nickel-and-diming the sealing material to save money, making
> > it thinner and the strip itself narrower. They shaved probably a few
> > mils off the thickness and the strip is a couple mm narrower. I would
> > guess
> > the savings add up to .000000001 cents per lid. :-/ They also used to
> > stamp impress the Kerr and Ball name on the lid and now they just
> > print them, I guess that saved another .000000001 cents per lid. And
> > they also redesigned the graphic on the Ball lid to make it less pretty
> > and
> > more boring looking, thus making the printing simpler, saving another
> > .0000001 cents per lid.
> >
> > No doubt some executive got a million dollar bonus over those ones.
> >
> > What I can't figure out for the life of me is why in blazes that Jardin
> > has a lock on this market. There are hundreds of glass jar
manufacturers
> > out there who make commercial glass jars and commercial lids that spin
> > on with the industry standard 1/4 and 1/2 turn, all competing with each
> > other.
> > And you can take the lid off a commercially canned pickle jar and see
> > how much thicker the steel is in it and how much higher quality the
> > sealing strip is.
> >
> > It would seem to me that the time is ripe for one of the commercial
> > jar manufacturers to package their product for retail sale and make
> > their one piece lids available for retail sale for home canning, and
give
> > Jardin a run for their money. Certainly at the volumes they produce
> > they could easily undercut Jardin and still make a profit.
> >
>
> The problem is getting their products into the consumer-sales chain. It's
a
> totally different distribution, sales and marketing problem when consumers
> are your customers rather than manufacturers.
>
> For example, jars, rings and lids are often sold in grocery stores. Most
> people don't know this, but in some parts of the country the manufacturer
> (or distributor) pays the grocery store a fee for the shelf space in the
> stores. Getting products on the shelf in these stores is more expensive
> than in other parts of the country -- but getting grocers to give shelf
> space for a product such as jars can be difficult in any part of the
> country.
>

The easy solution to that is to OEM to another company that is already
in the distribution chain and has all the relationships built. The obvious
one
would be Kraft foods since they already make and sell Sure-Jell. And
you would start with lids that would fit regular Mason jars, since that is
an
obvious commodity item, and
you can advertise your name on them. Also, a bundle of a box of
powdered pectin with, say, 5 lids in it would make logical sense.

In addition, Jardin is already operating in the pectin market, with their
Ball pectin. It would make sense for Kraft to retaliate by entering the
lid/ring and possibly jar market.

What it comes down to I think is will people pay extra for the jars and
lids to say Ball or Kerr on them?

Ted

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
> The easy solution to that is to OEM to another company that is already
> in the distribution chain and has all the relationships built. The obvious
> one
> would be Kraft foods since they already make and sell Sure-Jell. And
> you would start with lids that would fit regular Mason jars, since that is
> an
> obvious commodity item, and
> you can advertise your name on them. Also, a bundle of a box of
> powdered pectin with, say, 5 lids in it would make logical sense.

You got that backwards. An OEM takes something made by someone else
and sells it as their own. The term was coined by IBM in the 1950's,
to refer to companies that bought IBM computers and used them in
their products. Specificaly companies that bought million dollar plus
computers and sold them as part of an oil refinery.

The automobile industry stole the term and does use it backwards. At some
point the incorrect use was enscribed in law in relation to and only to
automobile parts.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel N3OWJ/4X1GM

"Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> The easy solution to that is to OEM to another company that is already
> in the distribution chain and has all the relationships built. The
> obvious
> one
> would be Kraft foods since they already make and sell Sure-Jell. And
> you would start with lids that would fit regular Mason jars, since that is
> an
> obvious commodity item, and
> you can advertise your name on them. Also, a bundle of a box of
> powdered pectin with, say, 5 lids in it would make logical sense.
>
> In addition, Jardin is already operating in the pectin market, with their
> Ball pectin. It would make sense for Kraft to retaliate by entering the
> lid/ring and possibly jar market.

That's a good idea, but I'm not sure Kraft would agree. I doubt they'd see
the market as big enough to make a reasonable profit by selling lids.

Grocery stores around here sell jars, rings and lids only in the summer.
They sell pectin year-round, typically just Kraft's Sure-Jell line. Often
it's just the liquid pectin and regular powdered pectin, one column of each.
Shelf space is less than 8 inches across the front. (Wish I remember what
the merchandising jargon is for this.)

Kraft is not going to want to give up some of that shelf space for lids, and
grocers may not want to expand Kraft's space in that area since theat would
mean taking space away from some other product.

Your idea of bundling lids with pectin is a terrific one, but I suspect that
Kraft would want to give consumers a choice of buying pectin either with or
without the lids. After all, they give recipes and instructions for freezer
jam, too.

> What it comes down to I think is will people pay extra for the jars and
> lids to say Ball or Kerr on them?

I suspect most canners don't care -- if the product is good and costs less,
we'll buy it. Most of us are pretty cheap.

Anny

In article >,
"Anny Middon" > wrote:

> For example, jars, rings and lids are often sold in grocery stores. Most
> people don't know this, but in some parts of the country the manufacturer
> (or distributor) pays the grocery store a fee for the shelf space in the
> stores. Getting products on the shelf in these stores is more expensive
> than in other parts of the country -- but getting grocers to give shelf
> space for a product such as jars can be difficult in any part of the
> country.

It's called a slotting fee and comes because there is a finite amount of
space in a supermarket or store and it's all about the bottom line.
Profit margins, I understand, are pretty slim for grocers so if they're
going to make space available for an un-tried item, I guess they want
compensation for it. Too bad it has to be like this. It is done here.

> Anny

--
-Barb, Mother Superior, HOSSSPoJ
http://web.mac.com/barbschaller, blahblahblog is back and
most recently updated last night, 8-17-2008. Fair entries are DONE!

In article >,
"Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote:

> What it comes down to I think is will people pay extra for the jars and
> lids to say Ball or Kerr on them?
>
> Ted

I prefer the lid says nothing.
--
-Barb, Mother Superior, HOSSSPoJ
http://web.mac.com/barbschaller, blahblahblog is back and
most recently updated last night, 8-17-2008. Fair entries are DONE!

Melba's Jammin' wrote:
> In article >,
> "Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote:
>
>> What it comes down to I think is will people pay extra for the jars and
>> lids to say Ball or Kerr on them?
>>
>> Ted
>
> I prefer the lid says nothing.
That's why I generally buy Golden Harvest, even if they all are made by
the same company.

In article >,
George Shirley > wrote:

> That's why I generally buy Golden Harvest, even if they all are made by
> the same company.

Interesting -- GH isn't in the list of Jarden brands that does include
Ball, Kerr, and Bernardin. See
<http://jardenbc.com/jarden-home-brands.php>
--
-Barb, Mother Superior, HOSSSPoJ
http://web.mac.com/barbschaller, blahblahblog is back and
most recently updated last night, 8-17-2008. Fair entries are DONE!

"Melba's Jammin'" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote:
>
>> What it comes down to I think is will people pay extra for the jars and
>> lids to say Ball or Kerr on them?
>>
>> Ted
>
> I prefer the lid says nothing.
> --
> -Barb, Mother Superior, HOSSSPoJ

Da** mouthy lids anyway. Get enough of that stuff from the kids. ;-)
I do like the lids to be polite and say "plink."
Edrena

Melba's Jammin' wrote:
> In article >,
> George Shirley > wrote:
>
>> That's why I generally buy Golden Harvest, even if they all are made by
>> the same company.
>
> Interesting -- GH isn't in the list of Jarden brands that does include
> Ball, Kerr, and Bernardin. See
> <http://jardenbc.com/jarden-home-brands.php>
I guess the site I sent you was wrong then. I could have sworn it said
GH was a part of Jarden.

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 19:15:00 -0500, Melba's Jammin'
> wrote:

>In article >,
> George Shirley > wrote:
>
>> That's why I generally buy Golden Harvest, even if they all are made by
>> the same company.
>
>Interesting -- GH isn't in the list of Jarden brands that does include
>Ball, Kerr, and Bernardin. See
><http://jardenbc.com/jarden-home-brands.php>


On the bottom of the Golden Harvest "tray" it says

"Made in U.S.A.
© 2008 Hearthmark LLC d/b/a Jarden Home Brands
Dalesville, IN 47334
A subsidiary of Jarden Corporation (NYSE: JAH)"

In article >,
The Cook > wrote:

> On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 19:15:00 -0500, Melba's Jammin'
> > wrote:
>
> >In article >,
> > George Shirley > wrote:
> >
> >> That's why I generally buy Golden Harvest, even if they all are made by
> >> the same company.
> >
> >Interesting -- GH isn't in the list of Jarden brands that does include
> >Ball, Kerr, and Bernardin. See
> ><http://jardenbc.com/jarden-home-brands.php>
>
>
> On the bottom of the Golden Harvest "tray" it says
>
> "Made in U.S.A.
> © 2008 Hearthmark LLC d/b/a Jarden Home Brands
> Dalesville, IN 47334
> A subsidiary of Jarden Corporation (NYSE: JAH)"


Cool! I *thought* I'd heard that Jarden made everything but because GH
isn't on their list of brands, I got to wondering if I was hallucinating
about that again. :-) Thanks, Susan.
--
-Barb, Mother Superior, HOSSSPoJ
http://web.mac.com/barbschaller, blahblahblog is back and
most recently updated last night, 8-17-2008. Fair entries are DONE!