I'm not satisfied with the wikipedia entry on why it is called Boston
Butt.

"In pre-revolutionary New England and into the Revolutionary War, some
pork cuts (not those highly valued, or "high on the hog," like loin
and ham) were packed into casks or barrels (also known as "butts") for
storage and shipment. The way the hog shoulder was cut in the Boston
area became known in other regions as "Boston Butt."

Can anyone give me some references other than a website that refers to
"How to Cook Meat" by Chris Schlesinger and John Willoughby. [anyone
familiar with them?]

I've found the exact verbiage on a gazillion other sites -- some
referring to the National Pork Board- which is no longer there. I
don't know who plagiarized who, but I find the explanation
implausible.

It seems odd to me that a cut that is more popular in the south
[though I grew up on it in rural NY] is named [without some irony
being involved] for a New England city.

I'm also suspect of the common use of the term 'butt' for a cask in
Revolutionary America. I've read a lot of period papers and don't
remember seeing that term used.

I just searched Washington's papers online for "pork and butt" -zero
hits.
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/mgwquery.html

Same results for Thomas Jefferson-
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/collecti.../mtjquery.html

Any other theories on why it is 'Boston Butt'? [or sources that prove
Wikipedia is right?]

Jim

Jim Elbrecht > writes:

>I'm not satisfied with the wikipedia entry on why it is called Boston
>Butt.
>
>"In pre-revolutionary New England and into the Revolutionary War, some
>pork cuts (not those highly valued, or "high on the hog," like loin
>and ham) were packed into casks or barrels (also known as "butts") for
>storage and shipment. The way the hog shoulder was cut in the Boston
>area became known in other regions as "Boston Butt."
>
>Can anyone give me some references other than a website that refers to
>"How to Cook Meat" by Chris Schlesinger and John Willoughby. [anyone
>familiar with them?]

Chris Schlesinger is a Massachusetts restaurateur, with at least
one restaurant in Boston, and one in my town; the latter,
inexplicably to me, is much esteemed by some. The acoustics
are awful, and the food (the only time I've eaten there) was
nothing special, despite his high repute as a chef. Well,
it was specially expensive. But that's undoubtedly as much
for the view as the food or the auditory ambience.

>I've found the exact verbiage on a gazillion other sites -- some
>referring to the National Pork Board- which is no longer there.

Have you tried the Internet Archive, http://wayback.archive.org ?
If you have an actual URL for the purported NPB page in question,
it's very likely you can find it in the archive.

>I
>don't know who plagiarized who, but I find the explanation
>implausible.
>
>It seems odd to me that a cut that is more popular in the south
>[though I grew up on it in rural NY] is named [without some irony
>being involved] for a New England city.

Why? Consider "Boston cooler", "California cheeseburger", etc.,
and maybe "New York sirloin" (a common descriptive for a cut of
meat in New England...do New Yorkers, rural or urban, use the
term?); no irony in any of them, that I know of.

>I'm also suspect of the common use of the term 'butt' for a cask in
>Revolutionary America.

The Oxford English dictionary has a definition for _butt_ (second
noun of that spelling, def. 1c) as (now obsolete) "A cask for fish,
fruit, etc., of a capacity varying according to the contents and
locality", including citations

1649 F. Thorpe Charge York Assizes 28 In a Butt of Salmon
four~score and four gallons.
1728 E. Chambers Cycl. (at cited word), A Butt of Currants,
is from fifteen to twenty two hundred Weight.
1753 W. Maitland Hist. Edinb. v. 327 For ilk Bale of Madder
or Butt of Prunes, 1/-.

(nothing from the colonies--but it *is* the O*E*D). It also has
a definition for _butt_ (third noun of that spelling, 3):

3. A buttock. Chiefly dial. and colloq. in U.S.
....
c1450 Bk. Cookery in Holkham Coll. (1882) 58 Tak Buttes
of pork and smyt them to peces.
1486 Bk. St. Albans A v, The marow of hogges that is
in the bone of the butte of porke.
....
1884 Harper's Mag. July 299/1 Rump butts, strips, rounds,
and canning beef.

> I've read a lot of period papers and don't
>remember seeing that term used.
>
>I just searched Washington's papers online for "pork and butt" -zero
>hits.
>http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/mgwquery.html
>
>Same results for Thomas Jefferson-
>http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/collecti.../mtjquery.html
>
>Any other theories on why it is 'Boston Butt'? [or sources that prove
>Wikipedia is right?]

I could tell you, butt then...oh, never mind.

Lee Rudolph

Lee Rudolph > wrote:

>Jim Elbrecht > writes:
>
>>I'm not satisfied with the wikipedia entry on why it is called Boston
>>Butt.
>>
>>"In pre-revolutionary New England and into the Revolutionary War, some
>>pork cuts (not those highly valued, or "high on the hog," like loin
>>and ham) were packed into casks or barrels (also known as "butts") for
>>storage and shipment. The way the hog shoulder was cut in the Boston
>>area became known in other regions as "Boston Butt."
>>
>>Can anyone give me some references other than a website that refers to
>>"How to Cook Meat" by Chris Schlesinger and John Willoughby. [anyone
>>familiar with them?]
>
>Chris Schlesinger is a Massachusetts restaurateur, with at least
>one restaurant in Boston, and one in my town; the latter,

Thanks-- that gives it at least a grain of possibility. Worth looking
for the book at least.

-snip-
>>I've found the exact verbiage on a gazillion other sites -- some
>>referring to the National Pork Board- which is no longer there.
>
>Have you tried the Internet Archive, http://wayback.archive.org ?
>If you have an actual URL for the purported NPB page in question,
>it's very likely you can find it in the archive.

No specific url- and the one that goes to the home page redirects.
Searching that site [with Google] got no hits for "revolutionary".
>
>>I
>>don't know who plagiarized who, but I find the explanation
>>implausible.
>>
>>It seems odd to me that a cut that is more popular in the south
>>[though I grew up on it in rural NY] is named [without some irony
>>being involved] for a New England city.
>
>Why? Consider "Boston cooler", "California cheeseburger", etc.,
>and maybe "New York sirloin" (a common descriptive for a cut of
>meat in New England...do New Yorkers, rural or urban, use the
>term?); no irony in any of them, that I know of.

I had never heard of a Boston cooler or a California Cheeseburger.

Here's a theory on the Boston Cooler. Those MI folks were lonely for
home and the smart entrepreneurs capitalized on it. They built a
second Coney Island out there for cryin-out-loud! [And copied the
Coney Island hotdog--- which in turn found its way to Northern NY as a
"Michigan" 50 years later.- BTW, that is just my theory, having
enjoyed Coney hot dogs in the 50s and being introduced to Michigans in
the 90's.]

Googling 'California Cheeseburger' was a mistake. <g> Not sure which
one you mean--

I'm from NY & I *have* heard of a NY Sirloin. Probably as popular
here as anywhere. I see wiki-p says it is the same as a Kansas
City steak-- which I didn't know. *That* all makes sense to me.

>
>>I'm also suspect of the common use of the term 'butt' for a cask in
>>Revolutionary America.
>
>The Oxford English dictionary has a definition for _butt_ (second
>noun of that spelling, def. 1c) as (now obsolete) "A cask for fish,
>fruit, etc., of a capacity varying according to the contents and
>locality", including citations
>
> 1649 F. Thorpe Charge York Assizes 28 In a Butt of Salmon
> four~score and four gallons.
> 1728 E. Chambers Cycl. (at cited word), A Butt of Currants,
> is from fifteen to twenty two hundred Weight.
> 1753 W. Maitland Hist. Edinb. v. 327 For ilk Bale of Madder
> or Butt of Prunes, 1/-.
>
>(nothing from the colonies--but it *is* the O*E*D). It also has
>a definition for _butt_ (third noun of that spelling, 3):
>
> 3. A buttock. Chiefly dial. and colloq. in U.S.
>...
> c1450 Bk. Cookery in Holkham Coll. (1882) 58 Tak Buttes
> of pork and smyt them to peces.
> 1486 Bk. St. Albans A v, The marow of hogges that is
> in the bone of the butte of porke.
>...
> 1884 Harper's Mag. July 299/1 Rump butts, strips, rounds,
> and canning beef.

Which end of the pig are those butts coming from? I would expect a
butt to be from the hindquarters of a critter-- thus 'buttocks' and
'rump butts'. Any diagrams showing the butt coming from a
shoulder?

But the 1884 reference gives me an idea. I'll see what I can find on
the Making of America pages.

Now I'm really getting suspicious. No hits on Boston Butt at
Cornell's MOA site. A search for pork and butt on the same page
locked things up- so I went to umich.

No hits on Boston butt-- nothing for pork and butt on the same page.
Neither site has all there was to print from 1800 to 1835-- but they
have a vast amount of journals and books from that period-- especially
from 1850-1900 [at least that was the main focus when I spent a lot of
time there years ago.]

Google has some old books too-- but the earliest reference to Boston
Butt was in the 1904 "Proceedings of the annual meeting By
Pennsylvania Dairy Union"

Interesting that he suggests cutting it up for chops-- and that he
calls the whole top of the shoulder a butt. The top 1/3 he calls a
'shoulder butt'.
-snip-

>>
>>Any other theories on why it is 'Boston Butt'? [or sources that prove
>>Wikipedia is right?]
>
>I could tell you, butt then...oh, never mind.


Don't make me the butt of your jokes. . . <g>

Jim

On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 21:39:59 -0500, Sqwertz >
wrote:

>On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 07:48:49 -0400, Jim Elbrecht wrote:
>
>> I'm not satisfied with the wikipedia entry on why it is called Boston
>> Butt.
>>
>> "In pre-revolutionary New England and into the Revolutionary War, some
>> pork cuts (not those highly valued, or "high on the hog," like loin
>> and ham) were packed into casks or barrels (also known as "butts") for
>> storage and shipment. The way the hog shoulder was cut in the Boston
>> area became known in other regions as "Boston Butt."
>>
>> Can anyone give me some references other than a website that refers to
>> "How to Cook Meat" by Chris Schlesinger and John Willoughby. [anyone
>> familiar with them?]
>
>I don't know why the Wiki page cites its reference as a Boston Globe
>article or pork rubs <boggle>.

I'm surprised nobody has challenged that. I like to use Wiki as a
place to see where to look- but unless it is a real controversial
topic with zealots from both sides insisting on accuracy, it is about
as [un]reliable as a newspaper, IMHO.

>
>I think its plausible. Plausible enough that I'm not going to lose
>any sleep over it ;-)

I'm not buying it-- and I haven't slept in three days.<BG> This is
more important to me than Anthony's weiner, or Casey's last hours.[and
if you don't get those references-- don't turn your TV on]

Jim

Jim Elbrecht wrote:
[sni]
> Which end of the pig are those butts coming from? I would expect a
> butt to be from the hindquarters of a critter-- thus 'buttocks' and
> 'rump butts'. Any diagrams showing the butt coming from a
> shoulder?
>
[snip]
From: Military Meat and Dairy Hygiene prepared under the
direction of the surgeon general of the United States Army.
United States Surgeon-General's Office, Horace S. Eakins.
Williams & Wilkins, 1924, pp. 209-210.

"A Boston butt is the lean portion of the shoulder plus some of
the fat, after the clear plate is removed. It is about two-thirds
lean and one-third fat, and also contains a portion of the scapula."

But does this contradict the above:

"This side of pork is from one of the animals used in the judging
ring yesterday. I will cut this up, showing the different cuts as
we would cut it if going to cure the shoulders as pickled hams and
going to cure the hams, showing the different cuts made in
trimming up these shoulders and hams, making the loin to be sold
out as loin from the retail shop.

"First, take off the shoulder, cutting as I have cut this one back
of the fourth rib. This is not necessary. If you want to make a
heavy shoulder you cut further back and for a lighter shoulder you
cut only three ribs. Up at State College we have been just
starting some experimental work in curing hams and shoulders and
cutting them up the same, cutting them between the fourth and
fifth ribs, and cutting that way you notice this shoulder would be
trimmed out and the first trimming would be to take out the spare
ribs, cutting close to the bone. That gives you what they call
butcher's spare ribs. It is very thin spare ribs, of course, used
for packing up and roasting. It is quite a choice cut but not cut
heavy like what we call farmers' spare ribs. The next cut will be
to cut off the shoulder butt, right across the top, about
one-third the top, what the packer would call the shoulder butt.
The top across the top of the shoulder blade. This would be called
a shoulder butt. Trimming off the fat we would have the fat
separated like this. It is called the clear plate. This plate or
piece of lean taken out would be called the clear plate and that
is used by the packers and cut up into chunks, put down in salted
brine and shipped to foreign countries and also somewhat used in
this country for certain classes of trade in the mining and
lumbering districts, and it is known on the provision market as
clear plate. Ordinarily the farmer would simply trim that off, of
course, taking off the rest of the lean and use it for making
lard. This lean portion that is left from the shoulder fat is
practically all lean meat and makes a very nice roast, or if
sliced across this way, crosswise, about one-half inch wide, about
the thickness of pork chops it makes a very nice steak and is
called "Boston Butt" by the packers...."

Annual report of the Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture,
Volume 16 (1911): pp. 535-???.

You can see a pic he

<http://books.google.com/books?id=lQhIAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA2-PA43&dq=%22Boston+butt%22&hl=en&ei=k1YFTre5FYTegQe 80fS3DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved =0CFEQ6AEwBzgK#v=onepage&q=%22Boston%20butt%22&f=f alse>


or:

http://tinyurl.com/6f5rk7h

I have to scroll up a wee tad to see the complete photo.

--
Jean B.

Sqwertz wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Jun 2011 23:44:54 -0400, Jean B. wrote:
>
>> [snip]
>> From: Military Meat and Dairy Hygiene prepared under the
>> direction of the surgeon general of the United States Army.
>> United States Surgeon-General's Office, Horace S. Eakins.
>> Williams & Wilkins, 1924, pp. 209-210.
>>
>> "A Boston butt is the lean portion of the shoulder plus some of
>> the fat, after the clear plate is removed. It is about two-thirds
>> lean and one-third fat, and also contains a portion of the scapula."
>
> Note that pigs had much more fat back then. Just a minor point. The
> shoulder still contains a good portion of fat. The fat content of the
> shoulder didn't shrink as much proportionate to the rib and loin.
>
> -sw

I wasn't thinking that as I was responding, but YES. I can't wait
until I can get good old-fashioned pork at a local farm near here.
Luckily, not too many people know about this little place. That
pork goes FAST!

--
Jean B.

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