Historic (rec.food.historic) Discussing and discovering how food was made and prepared way back when--From ancient times down until (& possibly including or even going slightly beyond) the times when industrial revolution began to change our lives.

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Old 20-09-2008, 10:36 AM posted to rec.food.historic
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On wikipedia it is suggested that "Fool" recipes date back to the 15th
century. Does anyone know a source for such a recipe? I had a brief look
in "A Forme of Curry" (which is a bit old being late 14th century) and
couldn't find it there. Any suggestions on an internet available source?
The oldest I have is 1658 which is quite a gap.

Martin S
--
Old time cookery and brewing:
theoldecookerybook.com

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Martin S wrote:

On wikipedia it is suggested that "Fool" recipes date back to the 15th
century. Does anyone know a source for such a recipe? I had a brief look
in "A Forme of Curry" (which is a bit old being late 14th century) and
couldn't find it there. Any suggestions on an internet available source?
The oldest I have is 1658 which is quite a gap.

Martin S


Nor does Thomas Austins treatise of some 15th century cookery-books (e.g.
Harelian MS 279, Ashmole MS 1439). That set of recipes contains quite a
few "Sweet" recipes but no fool AFAICS.

Martin S
--
Old time cookery and brewing:
theoldecookerybook.com

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On Sat, 20 Sep 2008 11:36:44 +0200, Martin S
wrote:

On wikipedia it is suggested that "Fool" recipes date back to the 15th
century. Does anyone know a source for such a recipe? I had a brief look
in "A Forme of Curry" (which is a bit old being late 14th century) and
couldn't find it there. Any suggestions on an internet available source?
The oldest I have is 1658 which is quite a gap.

Martin S
--
Old time cookery and brewing:
theoldecookerybook.com


I can't help with a recipe earlier than 1658. However the OED has the
earliest citation of the word as 1598, the phrasing of which suggests
that the word was in regular use by then.

The source is an Italian-English dictionary, author Florio and the
word being translated from the Italian is Mantiglia.:

"Mantiglia, a kinde of clouted creame called a foole or a trifle in
English."

I looked at the 1611 edition and there is no more substantial text
than that given by the OED. However the wording has been changed to
read: "Mantiglia, a kinde of clouted creame which we call a foole or
trifle."
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Old 21-09-2008, 05:16 AM posted to rec.food.historic
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Richard Wright wrote:

On Sat, 20 Sep 2008 11:36:44 +0200, Martin S
wrote:

On wikipedia it is suggested that "Fool" recipes date back to the 15th
century. Does anyone know a source for such a recipe? I had a brief look
in "A Forme of Curry" (which is a bit old being late 14th century) and
couldn't find it there. Any suggestions on an internet available source?
The oldest I have is 1658 which is quite a gap.

Martin S
--
Old time cookery and brewing:
theoldecookerybook.com


I can't help with a recipe earlier than 1658. However the OED has the
earliest citation of the word as 1598, the phrasing of which suggests
that the word was in regular use by then.

The source is an Italian-English dictionary, author Florio and the
word being translated from the Italian is Mantiglia.:

"Mantiglia, a kinde of clouted creame called a foole or a trifle in
English."

I looked at the 1611 edition and there is no more substantial text
than that given by the OED. However the wording has been changed to
read: "Mantiglia, a kinde of clouted creame which we call a foole or
trifle."


Thanks, very helpful. I wish I had the OED available. Daft question, but it
is the same as http://www.oed.com/ isn't it? Might possibly be useful at
work... ;-). Mayhaps I'll set up a trial account tomorrow...

Martin S
--
Old time cookery and brewing:
theoldecookerybook.com

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Old 21-09-2008, 09:51 PM posted to rec.food.historic
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Default "Fools" oldest recipe

On Sun, 21 Sep 2008 06:16:13 +0200, Martin S
wrote:

Richard Wright wrote:

On Sat, 20 Sep 2008 11:36:44 +0200, Martin S
wrote:

On wikipedia it is suggested that "Fool" recipes date back to the 15th
century. Does anyone know a source for such a recipe? I had a brief look
in "A Forme of Curry" (which is a bit old being late 14th century) and
couldn't find it there. Any suggestions on an internet available source?
The oldest I have is 1658 which is quite a gap.

Martin S
--
Old time cookery and brewing:
theoldecookerybook.com


I can't help with a recipe earlier than 1658. However the OED has the
earliest citation of the word as 1598, the phrasing of which suggests
that the word was in regular use by then.

The source is an Italian-English dictionary, author Florio and the
word being translated from the Italian is Mantiglia.:

"Mantiglia, a kinde of clouted creame called a foole or a trifle in
English."

I looked at the 1611 edition and there is no more substantial text
than that given by the OED. However the wording has been changed to
read: "Mantiglia, a kinde of clouted creame which we call a foole or
trifle."


Thanks, very helpful. I wish I had the OED available. Daft question, but it
is the same as http://www.oed.com/ isn't it? Might possibly be useful at
work... ;-). Mayhaps I'll set up a trial account tomorrow...

Martin S
--
Old time cookery and brewing:
theoldecookerybook.com


Yes, that's the same OED. You might find your public library has an
online subscription.

Richard


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Old 23-09-2008, 06:02 PM posted to rec.food.historic
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Default "Fools" oldest recipe

Martin S wrote:
On wikipedia it is suggested that "Fool" recipes date back to the 15th
century. Does anyone know a source for such a recipe? I had a brief look
in "A Forme of Curry" (which is a bit old being late 14th century) and
couldn't find it there. Any suggestions on an internet available source?
The oldest I have is 1658 which is quite a gap.

Martin S


The only relevant gleanings from Alan Davidson's Oxford Companion
to Food a

1. The name "is thought to have been derived from the French
_fouler_ (to mash)".

2. "[O]ne of the earliest fools Norfolk fool, popular during the
17th century, contained no fruit." I mention this because of the
name plus the date, although that would not seem to be any sort of
precedent. You might also look at white pot/whitepot/whitpot, if
you are looking for fools regardless of whether they contain fruit
or not. Fools with fruit were being made at the same time,
according to the same source.

--
Jean B.
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Old 23-09-2008, 08:12 PM posted to rec.food.historic
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Thanks, I just rewrote the Wikipedia entry for fruit fool.

Jean B. wrote:

1. *The name "is thought to have been derived from the French
fouler (to mash)".


This is apparently controversial. I got bashed (well, not really but anyway)
when adding that originally.

2. *"[O]ne of the earliest fools Norfolk fool, popular during the
17th century, contained no fruit." *I mention this because of the
name plus the date, although that would not seem to be any sort of
precedent. *You might also look at white pot/whitepot/whitpot, if
you are looking for fools regardless of whether they contain fruit
or not. *Fools with fruit were being made at the same time,
according to the same source.


I've mentioned the Norfolk fool in there as well. It's in "The accomplisht
Cook" from 1664. Actually there is (possibly) fruit in it - although not as
in "all" the other recipes, but dates (if dates are fruit) are added at the
end of the recipe. Apparently "Trifle" is the same thing as a fool, and I
think I saw a recipe for some trifle or other in my recipe collection -
I'll need to go look it up. I haven't seen a *pot anywhere, will have to go
to look that up as well.

Martin S
--
Old time cookery and brewing:
theoldecookerybook.com

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Old 24-09-2008, 12:38 AM posted to rec.food.historic
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On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 13:02:46 -0400, "Jean B." wrote:

Martin S wrote:
On wikipedia it is suggested that "Fool" recipes date back to the 15th
century. Does anyone know a source for such a recipe? I had a brief look
in "A Forme of Curry" (which is a bit old being late 14th century) and
couldn't find it there. Any suggestions on an internet available source?
The oldest I have is 1658 which is quite a gap.

Martin S


The only relevant gleanings from Alan Davidson's Oxford Companion
to Food a

1. The name "is thought to have been derived from the French
_fouler_ (to mash)".

2. "[O]ne of the earliest fools Norfolk fool, popular during the
17th century, contained no fruit." I mention this because of the
name plus the date, although that would not seem to be any sort of
precedent. You might also look at white pot/whitepot/whitpot, if
you are looking for fools regardless of whether they contain fruit
or not. Fools with fruit were being made at the same time,
according to the same source.


Yes, Davidson does give that origin. However the OED dismisses the
etymology thus: "Mahn's derivation from F[rench]. fouler to crush, is
not only baseless, but inconsistent with the early use of the word
[fool]."

By this the OED author means that it was only in the 18th century that
crushed, stewed fruit appears in the description of a fool. Before
that a fool was described as a sort of clotted cream or custard.

Here are the citations:

1598 Florio, Mantiglia, a kinde of clouted creame called a foole or a
trifle in English.
c.1600 Day Begg. Bednall Gr. v. (Bullen) 114 My Mother ... could have
taught thee how to a made ... fritters, pancakes, I and the rarest
fools.
1637 B. Jonson Sad Sheph. i. vi, Your cheese-cakes, curdes, and
clowted creame, Your fooles, your flaunes.
1688 R. Holme Armoury iii. iii. 82 Foole is a kind of Custard, but
more crudelly; being made of Cream, Yolks of Eggs, Cinamon, Mace
boiled: and served on Sippets with sliced Dates, Sugar, and white and
red Comfits, strawed thereon.

The first citation for fool as we know it today is from 1747:

1747 H. Glasse Art of Cookery ix. 79 A Gooseberry-Fool.

The etymology the OED prefers is a play on the words fool/trifle.

Richard
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Richard Wright wrote:

By this the OED author means that it was only in the 18th century that
crushed, stewed fruit appears in the description of a fool. Before
that a fool was described as a sort of clotted cream or custard.


The Compleat Cook, 1658:
Take your Gooseberries, and put them in a pot, and set it in a skillet of
boiling water, and when they are coddled enough strain them. Reheat them
and when they are scalding hot, beat them very well with a good piece of
fresh butter, rose-water and sugar, and put in the yolks of two or three
eggs; you may put rose-water into them, and so mix it altogether, and serve
it cold.

Shouldn't that be interpreted as "crushed, stewed fruit"?

--
Old time cookery and brewing:
theoldecookerybook.com

--
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On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 05:50:57 +0200, Martin S
wrote:

Richard Wright wrote:

By this the OED author means that it was only in the 18th century that
crushed, stewed fruit appears in the description of a fool. Before
that a fool was described as a sort of clotted cream or custard.


The Compleat Cook, 1658:
Take your Gooseberries, and put them in a pot, and set it in a skillet of
boiling water, and when they are coddled enough strain them. Reheat them
and when they are scalding hot, beat them very well with a good piece of
fresh butter, rose-water and sugar, and put in the yolks of two or three
eggs; you may put rose-water into them, and so mix it altogether, and serve
it cold.

Shouldn't that be interpreted as "crushed, stewed fruit"?

--
Old time cookery and brewing:
theoldecookerybook.com



Yes, of course it is, and I see that it is called a 'foole' in the
text and a 'fool' in the table of contents.

Well done. The OED is always wanting to revise its earliest citations.
They took one from me for the earliest use in English of "tom yam
kung" for the famous Thai soup (1952).

Perhaps you could refer this to them for their next revision..


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Richard Wright wrote:
On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 05:50:57 +0200, Martin S
wrote:

Richard Wright wrote:

By this the OED author means that it was only in the 18th century that
crushed, stewed fruit appears in the description of a fool. Before
that a fool was described as a sort of clotted cream or custard.

The Compleat Cook, 1658:
Take your Gooseberries, and put them in a pot, and set it in a skillet of
boiling water, and when they are coddled enough strain them. Reheat them
and when they are scalding hot, beat them very well with a good piece of
fresh butter, rose-water and sugar, and put in the yolks of two or three
eggs; you may put rose-water into them, and so mix it altogether, and serve
it cold.

Shouldn't that be interpreted as "crushed, stewed fruit"?

--
Old time cookery and brewing:
theoldecookerybook.com



Yes, of course it is, and I see that it is called a 'foole' in the
text and a 'fool' in the table of contents.

Well done. The OED is always wanting to revise its earliest citations.
They took one from me for the earliest use in English of "tom yam
kung" for the famous Thai soup (1952).

Perhaps you could refer this to them for their next revision..


I don't suppose there is anywhere one can easily see the food
terms and the current earliest dates? It is always fun to look
for precedents.

--
Jean B.
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Richard Wright wrote:
On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 13:02:46 -0400, "Jean B." wrote:

Martin S wrote:
On wikipedia it is suggested that "Fool" recipes date back to the 15th
century. Does anyone know a source for such a recipe? I had a brief look
in "A Forme of Curry" (which is a bit old being late 14th century) and
couldn't find it there. Any suggestions on an internet available source?
The oldest I have is 1658 which is quite a gap.

Martin S

The only relevant gleanings from Alan Davidson's Oxford Companion
to Food a

1. The name "is thought to have been derived from the French
_fouler_ (to mash)".

2. "[O]ne of the earliest fools Norfolk fool, popular during the
17th century, contained no fruit." I mention this because of the
name plus the date, although that would not seem to be any sort of
precedent. You might also look at white pot/whitepot/whitpot, if
you are looking for fools regardless of whether they contain fruit
or not. Fools with fruit were being made at the same time,
according to the same source.


Yes, Davidson does give that origin. However the OED dismisses the
etymology thus: "Mahn's derivation from F[rench]. fouler to crush, is
not only baseless, but inconsistent with the early use of the word
[fool]."

By this the OED author means that it was only in the 18th century that
crushed, stewed fruit appears in the description of a fool. Before
that a fool was described as a sort of clotted cream or custard.

Here are the citations:

1598 Florio, Mantiglia, a kinde of clouted creame called a foole or a
trifle in English.
c.1600 Day Begg. Bednall Gr. v. (Bullen) 114 My Mother ... could have
taught thee how to a made ... fritters, pancakes, I and the rarest
fools.
1637 B. Jonson Sad Sheph. i. vi, Your cheese-cakes, curdes, and
clowted creame, Your fooles, your flaunes.
1688 R. Holme Armoury iii. iii. 82 Foole is a kind of Custard, but
more crudelly; being made of Cream, Yolks of Eggs, Cinamon, Mace
boiled: and served on Sippets with sliced Dates, Sugar, and white and
red Comfits, strawed thereon.

The first citation for fool as we know it today is from 1747:

1747 H. Glasse Art of Cookery ix. 79 A Gooseberry-Fool.

The etymology the OED prefers is a play on the words fool/trifle.

Richard


Yup. I was just giving what Davidson said to add to the
conversation.

--
Jean B.
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On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 21:21:37 -0400, "Jean B." wrote:

Richard Wright wrote:
On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 05:50:57 +0200, Martin S
wrote:

Richard Wright wrote:

By this the OED author means that it was only in the 18th century that
crushed, stewed fruit appears in the description of a fool. Before
that a fool was described as a sort of clotted cream or custard.
The Compleat Cook, 1658:
Take your Gooseberries, and put them in a pot, and set it in a skillet of
boiling water, and when they are coddled enough strain them. Reheat them
and when they are scalding hot, beat them very well with a good piece of
fresh butter, rose-water and sugar, and put in the yolks of two or three
eggs; you may put rose-water into them, and so mix it altogether, and serve
it cold.

Shouldn't that be interpreted as "crushed, stewed fruit"?

--
Old time cookery and brewing:
theoldecookerybook.com



Yes, of course it is, and I see that it is called a 'foole' in the
text and a 'fool' in the table of contents.

Well done. The OED is always wanting to revise its earliest citations.
They took one from me for the earliest use in English of "tom yam
kung" for the famous Thai soup (1952).

Perhaps you could refer this to them for their next revision..


I don't suppose there is anywhere one can easily see the food
terms and the current earliest dates? It is always fun to look
for precedents.


As I said to an earlier poster, it may be that your local public
library has a subscription online.

If not, then you can get a private subscription:

http://www.oed.com/subscribe/
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Default "Fools" oldest recipe

Richard Wright wrote:
On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 21:21:37 -0400, "Jean B." wrote:

Richard Wright wrote:
On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 05:50:57 +0200, Martin S
wrote:

Richard Wright wrote:

By this the OED author means that it was only in the 18th century that
crushed, stewed fruit appears in the description of a fool. Before
that a fool was described as a sort of clotted cream or custard.
The Compleat Cook, 1658:
Take your Gooseberries, and put them in a pot, and set it in a skillet of
boiling water, and when they are coddled enough strain them. Reheat them
and when they are scalding hot, beat them very well with a good piece of
fresh butter, rose-water and sugar, and put in the yolks of two or three
eggs; you may put rose-water into them, and so mix it altogether, and serve
it cold.

Shouldn't that be interpreted as "crushed, stewed fruit"?

--
Old time cookery and brewing:
theoldecookerybook.com

Yes, of course it is, and I see that it is called a 'foole' in the
text and a 'fool' in the table of contents.

Well done. The OED is always wanting to revise its earliest citations.
They took one from me for the earliest use in English of "tom yam
kung" for the famous Thai soup (1952).

Perhaps you could refer this to them for their next revision..

I don't suppose there is anywhere one can easily see the food
terms and the current earliest dates? It is always fun to look
for precedents.


As I said to an earlier poster, it may be that your local public
library has a subscription online.

If not, then you can get a private subscription:

http://www.oed.com/subscribe/


Sure, but then one would have to find every relevant entry. Not
quite the same as having some source that lists the earliest known
occurrences of such names/concepts.

--
Jean B.
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Default "Fools" oldest recipe

Sure, but then one would have to find every relevant entry. *Not
quite the same as having some source that lists the earliest known
occurrences of such names/concepts.


Jean,

Sounds like you should write that book!

Be warned, however -- it will take years to research and write, and
the day after it's published hordes of scholars will suddenly appear,
bearing countless examples of earlier references to virtually every
entry in it (and your publisher won't even consider a revised edition
until the first one sells out -- which is NEVER, because there are
only a hundred of us in the world who crave such a book).

Do you think that might be the reason you can't find that book now?

Gary

-----------------------------------
Gary Allen
On the Table http://www.hvinet.com/gallen

The Resource Guide for Food Writers;
The Herbalist in the Kitchen;
The Business of Food: Encyclopedia of the Food and Drink Industries
(with Ken Albala);
Human Cuisine (with Ken Albala)




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