Yes, I am aware there are many threads devoted to pizza over the
years. I have scanned most of them.

I know home ovens lack the heat that commercial pizza ovens have.

My question is: Where does this recipe go wrong.

My crust was made with:

approx. 3 cups of flour
one packet dry yeast
pinch of sugar
one cup of water (luke warm)
2 tablespoons olive oil

I processed the dough in a food processor, then kneaded it for a
couple of minutes. I allowed it to rise in a warm oven for 1-2 hours.

In attempting to mimic the traditional neaopolitan pizza that has been
in the news lately I splurged on buffalo mozzarella, and completed the
topping with only plum tomatoes put through a food mill and fresh
basil leaves.

Well, many of you won't be surprised to hear what I ended up with.
After cooking on a very-thoroughly-preheated pizza stone in a 525
degree oven I ended up with a bland tasting pizza on a doughy cracker!

Can someone tell me what the main difference between what I did and
pizza parlours the world over do? Is it the oven temperature? Is it
the toppings? Is it the dough ingredients?

When I go to a pizza shop, for one thing the toppings seem much more
oily than mine. There is often a red/orange oily liquid on the
surface. The crust is also, need I say, vastly different with many air
holes in the outer crust and a thin, chewy texture under the toppings.

I could go on, but you've all heard it before.Is it possible to do
better than this at home?

Thanks in advance!

Evan

Shrubman wrote:
<snip>

> My crust was made with:
>
> approx. 3 cups of flour
> one packet dry yeast
> pinch of sugar
> one cup of water (luke warm)
> 2 tablespoons olive oil

SALT! YOU *MUST* HAVE SALT! Otherwise your crust will indeed lack flavor.
Add the salt after the dough is done rising.


> In attempting to mimic the traditional neaopolitan pizza that has been
> in the news lately I splurged on buffalo mozzarella, and completed the
> topping with only plum tomatoes put through a food mill and fresh
> basil leaves.

For this recipe to work, it's imperative that tomatoes be at the height of
flavor. If they're the typical picked-green-and-gassed things rather than
genuinely vine-ripened and picked only a day ago, you won't get that full
tomato flavor.

As a Band-Aid (although it's absolutely no substitute for ripe tomatoes),
you can add a tablespoon or so of tomato paste and a couple pinches of sugar
to the sauce to punch up the flavor. Maybe a little bit of white wine, red
wine vinegar, or Tabasco, too.


> When I go to a pizza shop, for one thing the toppings seem much more
> oily than mine. There is often a red/orange oily liquid on the
> surface. The crust is also, need I say, vastly different with many air
> holes in the outer crust and a thin, chewy texture under the toppings.
>
> I could go on, but you've all heard it before.Is it possible to do
> better than this at home?

To get those big holes (if that's what you want; it's a matter of taste),
you could try fast-rise yeast. Or you could add more water; the more liquid
the dough is, the bigger the holes tend to be.

I dunno about the orange oil; is that what you WANT in a pizza, or are you
just associating that with "good" pizza? It's my theory (though I could
easily be wrong) that the stuff is exuded from the cheese and colored by the
tomato sauce. If that's correct, then I guess using full-fat but fairly dry
mozzarella would result in the greatest oily-liquid output.

Bob

On 16 Jun 2004 20:09:10 -0500, "Bob"
> wrote:

> SALT! YOU *MUST* HAVE SALT! Otherwise your crust will indeed lack flavor.
> Add the salt after the dough is done rising.

That's hard to do. Add salt to your slurry of flour and
risen yeast.


Practice safe eating - always use condiments

at Thu, 17 Jun 2004 00:02:08 GMT in <890b5b0a.0406161602.61186954
@posting.google.com>, (Shrubman) wrote :

>Yes, I am aware there are many threads devoted to pizza over the
>years. I have scanned most of them.
>
>I know home ovens lack the heat that commercial pizza ovens have.
>
>My question is: Where does this recipe go wrong.
>
>My crust was made with:
>
>approx. 3 cups of flour
>one packet dry yeast
>pinch of sugar
>one cup of water (luke warm)
>2 tablespoons olive oil
>
>I processed the dough in a food processor, then kneaded it for a
>couple of minutes. I allowed it to rise in a warm oven for 1-2 hours.
>
>In attempting to mimic the traditional neaopolitan pizza that has been
>in the news lately I splurged on buffalo mozzarella, and completed the
>topping with only plum tomatoes put through a food mill and fresh
>basil leaves.
>
>Well, many of you won't be surprised to hear what I ended up with.
>After cooking on a very-thoroughly-preheated pizza stone in a 525
>degree oven I ended up with a bland tasting pizza on a doughy cracker!
>

On the crust, you let it rise too fast. You're using a huge amount of
yeast, a warm oven, added sugar, and no salt. All of these factors
accelerate the rising. Good flavour in the crust is the result of SLOW
rising. As in 6 hours or more to rise the first time, then a second rise of
2 hours or so, then a third(!) rise for about an hour. (The third rise is
optional). Not having any salt (which also helps to retard rising) will
result in a very bland flavour as well. I find it's best to lean on the
high side - 1 tbsp of salt for 6 cups of flour. Rise the dough in a cool
place (somewhere around 50-60 F is ideal) and use a tiny amount of yeast. I
use about 1/8 of a cake, and if 1 cake = 1 packet dry, that means 1/8 of a
packet of dry yeast. I use only enough warm water to dissolve the yeast,
and use cold water for the rest. If you want large bubbles, your dough
should be quite wet - 1 cup water to 3 cups flour is pretty dry. It should
be just barely possible to shape it if you want it to be bubbly - very
sticky and almost runny. The drier your dough, the more even-textured and
small the bubbles will be.

Using a food processor is a strange way to start your dough. Usually people
mix and knead either by hand or with a stand mixer. Other methods may lead
to uneven results. Kneading for a couple of minutes probably wasn't enough.
You need to knead long enough for the dough to become very smooth, for it
to fall in big, rounded folds rather than thin wrinkles, and for it to have
a silken feel in the hand. That a process that takes whatever time it
takes. Don't time it - simply knead until it reaches that state. If you
want the wet dough I described, the best way is to make a relatively dry
dough to knead with, then *gently* knead extra water in at the end, once
the dough reaches the point I described. (This makes the process of
kneading much less of an exercise in frustration and soggy dough squidging
everywhere)

On the toppings, as has been pointed out, the mistake was probably the
tomatoes. They need to be absolutely ripe, picked when red. Virtually no
supermarket tomatoes these days qualify. If you can't grow them at home,
your best bet would be a local farmer's market or farm stand. If you live
in a region where tomatoes don't really grow well (most northern-tier
states) you're better off buying canned. As with the crust, adding some
salt will improve the flavour enormously. You won't need much in this case
- as little as 1/4 tsp per pound of tomatoes will make a big difference.
Also, even though you did pass them through a food mill, be sure to peel
them and remove any seeds. By blanching them you can peel them instantly
and easily, and then by cutting them in half, you can seed them as well.
This way you can also remove the bitter, pithy core which otherwise
typically passes through a food mill.

--
Alex Rast

(remove d., .7, not, and .NOSPAM to reply)

Thanks a lot, both of you, for the quick response. I should point out
that, yes, I did have salt (forgot to list it) and that the tomatoes
were canned, peeled, imported plum tomatoes with extra sauce removed.

Thanks!

(Shrubman) wrote in news:890b5b0a.0406162237.22b9e139
@posting.google.com:

> Thanks a lot, both of you, for the quick response. I should point out
> that, yes, I did have salt (forgot to list it) and that the tomatoes
> were canned, peeled, imported plum tomatoes with extra sauce removed.
>
> Thanks!
>

I don't think it was the tomatoes.

--
Wayne in Phoenix

If there's a nit to pick, some nitwit will pick it.

Excellent Comments:
You should use salt, as Alex says. Use a tiny bit of yeast and ferment
in the frig overnight. I knead in a bread machine on dough cycle. My
kitchen aid sits in the pantry. You dough is too dry. 1.125-1.25cups
liquid/3 cups flour. Consider a softer flour like the Italians do in
Italy. Some recipes call for 1/4 cake flour and all purpose, not bread
flour. Spray h20 mist in the oven during the cook. This will crisp the
crust. Make sure you heat the stone for at least an hour. Use an oven
thermometer to make sure it is heating as high as you say.
All comments on tomatos are right on. I have used fresh Romas in season,
on top of the cheese, so the tomato aqueous fraction evaporates to some
degree during cooking.
Good thread
Good luck
Kent

Alex Rast wrote:
>
> at Thu, 17 Jun 2004 00:02:08 GMT in <890b5b0a.0406161602.61186954
> @posting.google.com>, (Shrubman) wrote :
>
> >Yes, I am aware there are many threads devoted to pizza over the
> >years. I have scanned most of them.
> >
> >I know home ovens lack the heat that commercial pizza ovens have.
> >
> >My question is: Where does this recipe go wrong.
> >
> >My crust was made with:
> >
> >approx. 3 cups of flour
> >one packet dry yeast
> >pinch of sugar
> >one cup of water (luke warm)
> >2 tablespoons olive oil
> >
> >I processed the dough in a food processor, then kneaded it for a
> >couple of minutes. I allowed it to rise in a warm oven for 1-2 hours.
> >
> >In attempting to mimic the traditional neaopolitan pizza that has been
> >in the news lately I splurged on buffalo mozzarella, and completed the
> >topping with only plum tomatoes put through a food mill and fresh
> >basil leaves.
> >
> >Well, many of you won't be surprised to hear what I ended up with.
> >After cooking on a very-thoroughly-preheated pizza stone in a 525
> >degree oven I ended up with a bland tasting pizza on a doughy cracker!
> >
>
> On the crust, you let it rise too fast. You're using a huge amount of
> yeast, a warm oven, added sugar, and no salt. All of these factors
> accelerate the rising. Good flavour in the crust is the result of SLOW
> rising. As in 6 hours or more to rise the first time, then a second rise of
> 2 hours or so, then a third(!) rise for about an hour. (The third rise is
> optional). Not having any salt (which also helps to retard rising) will
> result in a very bland flavour as well. I find it's best to lean on the
> high side - 1 tbsp of salt for 6 cups of flour. Rise the dough in a cool
> place (somewhere around 50-60 F is ideal) and use a tiny amount of yeast. I
> use about 1/8 of a cake, and if 1 cake = 1 packet dry, that means 1/8 of a
> packet of dry yeast. I use only enough warm water to dissolve the yeast,
> and use cold water for the rest. If you want large bubbles, your dough
> should be quite wet - 1 cup water to 3 cups flour is pretty dry. It should
> be just barely possible to shape it if you want it to be bubbly - very
> sticky and almost runny. The drier your dough, the more even-textured and
> small the bubbles will be.
>
> Using a food processor is a strange way to start your dough. Usually people
> mix and knead either by hand or with a stand mixer. Other methods may lead
> to uneven results. Kneading for a couple of minutes probably wasn't enough.
> You need to knead long enough for the dough to become very smooth, for it
> to fall in big, rounded folds rather than thin wrinkles, and for it to have
> a silken feel in the hand. That a process that takes whatever time it
> takes. Don't time it - simply knead until it reaches that state. If you
> want the wet dough I described, the best way is to make a relatively dry
> dough to knead with, then *gently* knead extra water in at the end, once
> the dough reaches the point I described. (This makes the process of
> kneading much less of an exercise in frustration and soggy dough squidging
> everywhere)
>
> On the toppings, as has been pointed out, the mistake was probably the
> tomatoes. They need to be absolutely ripe, picked when red. Virtually no
> supermarket tomatoes these days qualify. If you can't grow them at home,
> your best bet would be a local farmer's market or farm stand. If you live
> in a region where tomatoes don't really grow well (most northern-tier
> states) you're better off buying canned. As with the crust, adding some
> salt will improve the flavour enormously. You won't need much in this case
> - as little as 1/4 tsp per pound of tomatoes will make a big difference.
> Also, even though you did pass them through a food mill, be sure to peel
> them and remove any seeds. By blanching them you can peel them instantly
> and easily, and then by cutting them in half, you can seed them as well.
> This way you can also remove the bitter, pithy core which otherwise
> typically passes through a food mill.
>
> --
> Alex Rast
>
> (remove d., .7, not, and .NOSPAM to reply)

Use the pizza dough recipe at www.theartisan.net. Let it ferment overnight
in the 'fridge. That will solve your dough problems.

Spoon a tablespoon of oil on the rolled out dough before you top the pizza.
It will be fine. 500° or so is all you really need.

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Louis Cohen
Living la vida loca at N37° 43' 7.9" W122° 8' 42.8"


"Shrubman" > wrote in message
om...
> Yes, I am aware there are many threads devoted to pizza over the
> years. I have scanned most of them.
>
> I know home ovens lack the heat that commercial pizza ovens have.
>
> My question is: Where does this recipe go wrong.
>
> My crust was made with:
>
> approx. 3 cups of flour
> one packet dry yeast
> pinch of sugar
> one cup of water (luke warm)
> 2 tablespoons olive oil
>
> I processed the dough in a food processor, then kneaded it for a
> couple of minutes. I allowed it to rise in a warm oven for 1-2 hours.
>
> In attempting to mimic the traditional neaopolitan pizza that has been
> in the news lately I splurged on buffalo mozzarella, and completed the
> topping with only plum tomatoes put through a food mill and fresh
> basil leaves.
>
> Well, many of you won't be surprised to hear what I ended up with.
> After cooking on a very-thoroughly-preheated pizza stone in a 525
> degree oven I ended up with a bland tasting pizza on a doughy cracker!
>
> Can someone tell me what the main difference between what I did and
> pizza parlours the world over do? Is it the oven temperature? Is it
> the toppings? Is it the dough ingredients?
>
> When I go to a pizza shop, for one thing the toppings seem much more
> oily than mine. There is often a red/orange oily liquid on the
> surface. The crust is also, need I say, vastly different with many air
> holes in the outer crust and a thin, chewy texture under the toppings.
>
> I could go on, but you've all heard it before.Is it possible to do
> better than this at home?
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Evan

(Shrubman) wrote in
om:

> Yes, I am aware there are many threads devoted to pizza over the
> years. I have scanned most of them.
>
> I know home ovens lack the heat that commercial pizza ovens have.
>
> My question is: Where does this recipe go wrong.
>
> My crust was made with:
>
> approx. 3 cups of flour
> one packet dry yeast
> pinch of sugar
> one cup of water (luke warm)
> 2 tablespoons olive oil
>
> I processed the dough in a food processor, then kneaded it for a
> couple of minutes. I allowed it to rise in a warm oven for 1-2 hours.
>

Generally I think you have too much flour and too much yeast, along with
a little switch in technique. You need a wetter (more slack) dough and
less handling to preserve the larger bubbles and lightness in the dough.

As you say, there are _many_ variations on pizza dough on the web and
everywhere else.

The recipe and technique I use seems to work well for me and produces a
crust much like you describe.

2 cups bread flour
1 teaspoon salt
1 tablespoon honey or white sugar
2 tablespoons olive oil
3/4 cup cold water
1 teaspoon regular dry yeast
1/4 cup lukewarm water

Combine lukewarm water and yeast and stir a bit to dissolve. Let stand 10
minutes.

In the bowl of a food processor, combine flour and salt and pulse to
blend. Pour over the honey or sugar and olive oil. Pour over dissolved
yeast.

Place lid on food processor and turn on. Immediately pour in the
remaining 3/4 cup cold water. Process 30 seconds. If dough doesn't form
a ball around the blade, stop processor and add 2 additional tablespoons
of flour and process again. Repeat as needed until dough ball forms.
(This should not require a lot of additional flour - perhaps at the most,
5-6 tablespoons.) When dough ball forms, continue processing an
additional 30 seconds.

Immediately turn dough into greased or oiled bowl, cover tightly and
refrigerate overnight. The dough will rise slightly, but not completely.
The dough may be kept several days in the refrigerator at this stage.

Several hours before assembling the pizza, remove the bowl from the
refrigerator. As bowl warms, the dough will rise. When double in bulk,
punch down, cover, and allow to rise again. If you have time, repeat
this at least 1 or 2 times.

If you use a pizza pan, add 2-3 tablespoons oil to the pan before adding
dough. Do not roll dough out or work in additional flour. Simply put
the dough ball into the pan and use your fingertips to punch into the
dough and gradually flatten and enlarge it to fill the pan and create a
slightly raised edge.

Before adding sauce or toppings, coat the top of the dough with an
additional 1-2 tablespoons of oil.

Add desired toppings and bake in a very hot oven 12-15 minutes or until
of desired doneness.

Note: My oven only goes as high at 500 degrees F., and that works just
fine. I bake on the lowest rack. Preheat the oven for at least half an
hour, including the baking stone if using one.

If using a baking stone and no pan, shape the dough using the above
procedure omitting the oil under the dough, but place it on a sheet of
baking parchment. This makes it easy to transfer to the baking stone
with a peel.

Sorry this was so long.

--
Wayne in Phoenix

If there's a nit to pick, some nitwit will pick it.

In article >,
Wayne > wrote:

> (Shrubman) wrote in
> om:
>
> > Yes, I am aware there are many threads devoted to pizza over the
> > years. I have scanned most of them.
> >
> > I know home ovens lack the heat that commercial pizza ovens have.
> >
> > My question is: Where does this recipe go wrong.
> >
> > My crust was made with:
> >
> > approx. 3 cups of flour
> > one packet dry yeast
> > pinch of sugar
> > one cup of water (luke warm)
> > 2 tablespoons olive oil
> >
> > I processed the dough in a food processor, then kneaded it for a
> > couple of minutes. I allowed it to rise in a warm oven for 1-2 hours.
> >
>
> Generally I think you have too much flour and too much yeast, along with
> a little switch in technique. You need a wetter (more slack) dough and
> less handling to preserve the larger bubbles and lightness in the dough.

I also didn't see any salt, which will add flavour and strengthen the
gluten.

Miche

--
If you want to end war and stuff you got to sing loud.
-- Arlo Guthrie, "Alice's Restaurant"

(Shrubman) wrote in message . com>...
>>
> In attempting to mimic the traditional neaopolitan pizza that has been
> in the news lately I splurged on buffalo mozzarella, and completed the
> topping with only plum tomatoes put through a food mill and fresh
> basil leaves.
>
> Well, many of you won't be surprised to hear what I ended up with.
> After cooking on a very-thoroughly-preheated pizza stone in a 525
> degree oven I ended up with a bland tasting pizza on a doughy cracker!
>

I agree with most of the critiques on your crust, although not Alex's
indictment of the food processor. I've watched Nancy Silverton use a
processor on an old Julia Child show. It is a respected bread tool.
A slow risen, slack dough would give you the most crust flavor.

However, one other thing to consider:

Neoplitan Pizza is a bland tasting pizza on a doughy cracker.

Ok, not really, but it is one of those "pure" recipes that depends on
perfection of ingredients in the right proportion. And it's also a
pretty foreign style to most Americans. Good, but different in the
same way that Tart Tatin is not Apple Pie. Crust aside, you needed
more flavor; salt, pepper, garlic, sugar (probably not) or basil. A
bit of parmagiano grated on the hot pizza would help too.

If you're looking for anything other than a thin crust pizza, be aware
of the recipe's goal. Most recipes seem to aim for a thin crust, so
they only make enough dough for a thin crust. So don't roll your do
so thin if you don't want a thin crust.

Most recipes call for panless baking on a stone. This is the best
method for a crispy crust. It's the worst method for a tender crust.
Most American pizzarias use pizza pans or cookie sheets (for
rectangular pizzas.) If you want that style, use a pan.

For better crust on a thick pizza, remove the pizza from the pan and
put on the stone or oven rack during the last five minutes.

Buffalo Mozz. is a great cheese, and very nice on pizza if you don't
mind that it won't melt so much as weep, and that it won't get stringy
and stretchy. That's a job for low-fat cow's milk mozzerella.

Wow - I do go on. I was originally only going to make the crack about
Neopolitan pizza.

Greg Zywicki