Folks.... I'm at my wits end.

I want biscuits.

I've tried Bisquik.... Or however they spell it on the box, and the
results are terrible.

I've tried mixing it so it's fairly dry and doesn't stick to the
fingers, I've rolled it and compressed it.

I've made them thin and I've made them thick

It doesn't seem to matter what I do or how I cook them.

They wind up crumbly and raw in the middle.

I cook under high heat with the rack in the middle and cook them in a
pyrex baking dish.

When I notice them starting to brown on the bottom I turn the oven to
broil so they will brown on top. If I don't they burn on the bottom and
are basically white up top.

400 degrees at ten minutes..... I should be so lucky.

I have to cook these puppies for at least twenty minutes before they
brown up.

What's a biscuit lover to do.

SHIVER ME TIMBERS wrote:

> Folks.... I'm at my wits end.
>
> I want biscuits.
>
> I've tried Bisquik.... Or however they spell it on the box, and the
> results are terrible.
>
> I've tried mixing it so it's fairly dry and doesn't stick to the
> fingers, I've rolled it and compressed it.
>
> I've made them thin and I've made them thick
>
> It doesn't seem to matter what I do or how I cook them.
>
> They wind up crumbly and raw in the middle.
>
> I cook under high heat with the rack in the middle and cook them in a
> pyrex baking dish.
>
> When I notice them starting to brown on the bottom I turn the oven to
> broil so they will brown on top. If I don't they burn on the bottom and
> are basically white up top.
>
> 400 degrees at ten minutes..... I should be so lucky.
>
> I have to cook these puppies for at least twenty minutes before they
> brown up.
>

I always make them from scratch using the Better Homes and Gardens recipe,
and they always turn out. The dough should be pressed out until it is
about 3/4" thick and then cut with a biscuit cutter without turning. Cook
them at 450 for 12-14 minutes. Cook them on a metal baking pan, not in
pyrex. If you want them to be soft, cook them together, but if you want
them to be crusty and flaky place them far enough apart on the baking pant
that they won't touch while cooking.

SHIVER ME TIMBERS > wrote in
:

> Folks.... I'm at my wits end.
>
> I want biscuits.
>
> I've tried Bisquik.... Or however they spell it on the box, and the
> results are terrible.
>
> I've tried mixing it so it's fairly dry and doesn't stick to the
> fingers, I've rolled it and compressed it.
>
> I've made them thin and I've made them thick
>
> It doesn't seem to matter what I do or how I cook them.
>
> They wind up crumbly and raw in the middle.
>
> I cook under high heat with the rack in the middle and cook them in a
> pyrex baking dish.
>
> When I notice them starting to brown on the bottom I turn the oven to
> broil so they will brown on top. If I don't they burn on the bottom and
> are basically white up top.
>
> 400 degrees at ten minutes..... I should be so lucky.
>
> I have to cook these puppies for at least twenty minutes before they
> brown up.
>
> What's a biscuit lover to do.
>

Well if you'd post a recipe we'd might be able to fix it. Did you use
buttermilk? Is your leavening agent shot? If a orange is called a orange,
why isn't a lime called a green? These and many more questions require
due consideration.

--
No Bread Crumbs were hurt in the making of this Meal.
Type 2 Diabetic 1AC 7.2, 7.3, 5.5, 5.6 mmol
Continuing to be Manitoban

"SHIVER ME TIMBERS" > wrote in message
...
> Folks.... I'm at my wits end.
>
> I want biscuits.
>
> I've tried Bisquik.... Or however they spell it on the box, and the
> results are terrible.
>
> I've tried mixing it so it's fairly dry and doesn't stick to the
> fingers, I've rolled it and compressed it.
>
> I've made them thin and I've made them thick
>
> It doesn't seem to matter what I do or how I cook them.
>
> They wind up crumbly and raw in the middle.
>
> I cook under high heat with the rack in the middle and cook them in a
> pyrex baking dish.
>
> When I notice them starting to brown on the bottom I turn the oven to
> broil so they will brown on top. If I don't they burn on the bottom and
> are basically white up top.
>
> 400 degrees at ten minutes..... I should be so lucky.
>
> I have to cook these puppies for at least twenty minutes before they
> brown up.
>
> What's a biscuit lover to do.

For starters....how about following directions? Your post is so odd as to
make me wonder if you're trolling, or trying an April Fool's joke somewhat
early.
If you're not, well....they're never going to brown in a pyrex baking dish.
They ought not be broiled. Simply baked on a *flat* baking sheet for the
amount of time specified. Use the ingredients and methods described on the
box. Follow the directions and use the proper tools, and then get back to us
with the results.

kimberly

> Nexis > wrote:

> If you're not, well....they're never going to brown in a pyrex baking dish.

Okay.... I've got a small tin cake pan, so I will try that in the next
few hours and let you know how it works.

> > Nexis > wrote:

> > If you're not, well....they're never going to brown in a pyrex baking dish.



> SHIVER ME TIMBERS > wrote:

> Okay.... I've got a small tin cake pan, so I will try that in the next
> few hours and let you know how it works.

The saga continues.

Betty Crocker Biscuit mix.

Take mix - add milk.

Kept adding mix until dough wasn't sticky, added a bunch of mix to
metal cake pan, rolled and neaded dough in pan, flattened it out into
two strips, one higher than the other.

Baked at 450 degrees for twenty minutes and then turned off oven and
left for another half hour.

Brown on the bottom, basically beige up top.

Crumbly and kinda raw in the middle.

Maybe I should stick with the tube of Pillsberry doughboy stuff outta
the freezer section of the grocery store.

Nexis wrote:
> "SHIVER ME TIMBERS" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Folks.... I'm at my wits end.
>>
>> I want biscuits.
>>
>> I've tried Bisquik.... Or however they spell it on the box, and the
>> results are terrible.
>>
>> I've tried mixing it so it's fairly dry and doesn't stick to the
>> fingers, I've rolled it and compressed it.
>>
>> I've made them thin and I've made them thick
>>
>> It doesn't seem to matter what I do or how I cook them.
>>
>> They wind up crumbly and raw in the middle.
>>
>> I cook under high heat with the rack in the middle and cook them in a
>> pyrex baking dish.
>>
> For starters....how about following directions? Your post is so odd
> as to make me wonder if you're trolling, or trying an April Fool's
> joke somewhat early.
> If you're not, well....they're never going to brown in a pyrex baking
> dish. They ought not be broiled. Simply baked on a *flat* baking
> sheet for the amount of time specified. Use the ingredients and
> methods described on the box. Follow the directions and use the
> proper tools, and then get back to us with the results.
>
> kimberly

Based on the follow-up post, methinks it's a troll, for sure, but at least
an on topic troll

Jill

> jmcquown > wrote:

> Based on the follow-up post, methinks it's a troll, for sure, but at least
> an on topic troll

Fraid not lady.... I just tweaked to this newsgroup tonite and since
I've been having trouble making sucessful biscuits I thought I'd ask
for some advice in this newsgroup.

Asking for advice is allowed is it not...... Jill.??????????????????

SHIVER ME TIMBERS wrote:
>> jmcquown > wrote:
>
>> Based on the follow-up post, methinks it's a troll, for sure, but at
>> least an on topic troll
>
> Fraid not lady.... I just tweaked to this newsgroup tonite and since
> I've been having trouble making sucessful biscuits I thought I'd ask
> for some advice in this newsgroup.
>
> Asking for advice is allowed is it not...... Jill.??????????????????

Okay, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Hows about you get some some of that Bisquik or Betty Crocker mix and add
milk or buttermilk but NOT until it's dry in a mixing bowl. There is
absolutely no reason to knead it when it's in a baking pan. Mix it per the
directions until it is still moist. Now, if you want ROLLED biscuits,
scatter a handful of the baking mix on a board and put the dough on it. Rub
the rolling pin with a little of the dry mix, too. Roll out the dough to
about 1 inch thick. Use a biscuit cutter or a glass (about the diameter of
the biscuits you want) dipped in some of the dry baking mix and use that to
cut the biscuits.

Place the biscuits 2 inches apart on a baking sheet - not in a pyrex pan or
in a cake pan, but on a baking sheet - and bake per the package directions.
I have no idea what the package says but just do what it says.

Jill <--Reading is FUNdimental

> jmcquown > wrote:

> Rub the rolling pin with a little of the dry mix, too. Roll out the dough to
> about 1 inch thick.
>
> Place the biscuits 2 inches apart on a baking sheet - not in a pyrex pan or
> in a cake pan, but on a baking sheet

Well I don't have a rolling pin and have been using my fingers
and palm to kinda flatten it down.

I was kinda wondering if a sheet as apposed to a pan was required.

I will get a sheet in the next few days and figure out some way of
actually rolling the dough.

Thanks for the advice and tips. I know I'm doing something basically
wrong and by the looks of things it's a combination of errors.

I'll let you know how it turns out.

In article >,
SHIVER ME TIMBERS > wrote:

> > Nexis > wrote:
>
> > If you're not, well....they're never going to brown in a pyrex baking dish.
>
> Okay.... I've got a small tin cake pan, so I will try that in the next
> few hours and let you know how it works.

Use a cookie sheet, not a baking pan.

Miche

--
WWMVD?

"SHIVER ME TIMBERS" > wrote in message
...
>> jmcquown > wrote:
>
>> Rub the rolling pin with a little of the dry mix, too. Roll out the
>> dough to
>> about 1 inch thick.
>>
>> Place the biscuits 2 inches apart on a baking sheet - not in a pyrex pan
>> or
>> in a cake pan, but on a baking sheet
>
> Well I don't have a rolling pin and have been using my fingers
> and palm to kinda flatten it down.

I am sure you have a bottle hanging around.. Just make sure it is clean.

> Miche > wrote:

> Use a cookie sheet, not a baking pan.
>
> Miche

Thanks..... It's on the shopping list.

And thanks to all who have been giving me tips and advice this evening.

I'm new to the group and always looking for interesting little recipies
that I can try to add a little variety into my life.

I'm retired on a disability pension and have someone who does my
shopping once a month, so I kinda have to figure out everything that I
need for a month and since a lot of my meals wind up being repitive I'm
always looking for something simple and a little different.

I might pop in with a question now and again but for the most part once
I get this biscuit thing figured out I will generally be a lurker.

> Ophelia > wrote:

> I am sure you have a bottle hanging around.. Just make sure it is clean.

Thanks.... I was doing it the quick and easy way tonite but from now on
I will use something like a glass or similar to act as a rolling pin.

Correct me If I am wrong but by using my hands I'm not compressing the
dough enough like a rolling pin would do....??????????

In article >,
SHIVER ME TIMBERS > wrote:

> > jmcquown > wrote:
>
> > Rub the rolling pin with a little of the dry mix, too. Roll out the dough
> > to
> > about 1 inch thick.
> >
> > Place the biscuits 2 inches apart on a baking sheet - not in a pyrex pan or
> > in a cake pan, but on a baking sheet
>
> Well I don't have a rolling pin and have been using my fingers
> and palm to kinda flatten it down.

I always pat down scone/biscuit dough with my hands. It works. Just
make it about an inch thick and you should be OK.

Miche

--
WWMVD?

I make bisquick biscuits a lot and have no problem.....maybe it's your
oven??? They don't taste like biscuits you get in the south, but for a
mix they are pretty good. Maybe try brushing them with a bit of melted
butter? HTH....Sharon in SW Ontario Canada

SHIVER ME TIMBERS wrote:
>
> Folks.... I'm at my wits end.
>
> I want biscuits.
>
> I've tried Bisquik.... Or however they spell it on the box, and the
> results are terrible.
>
> I've tried mixing it so it's fairly dry and doesn't stick to the
> fingers, I've rolled it and compressed it.
>
> I've made them thin and I've made them thick
>
> It doesn't seem to matter what I do or how I cook them.
>
> They wind up crumbly and raw in the middle.
>
> I cook under high heat with the rack in the middle and cook them in a
> pyrex baking dish.
>
> When I notice them starting to brown on the bottom I turn the oven to
> broil so they will brown on top. If I don't they burn on the bottom and
> are basically white up top.
>
> 400 degrees at ten minutes..... I should be so lucky.
>
> I have to cook these puppies for at least twenty minutes before they
> brown up.
>
> What's a biscuit lover to do.

Hmmm...the date tells me that we've been had...

On Fri, 1 Apr 2005, SHIVER ME TIMBERS wrote:

> Folks.... I'm at my wits end.
>
> I want biscuits.
>
> I've tried Bisquik.... Or however they spell it on the box, and the
> results are terrible.
>
> I've tried mixing it so it's fairly dry and doesn't stick to the
> fingers, I've rolled it and compressed it.
>
> I've made them thin and I've made them thick
>
> It doesn't seem to matter what I do or how I cook them.
>
> They wind up crumbly and raw in the middle.
>
> I cook under high heat with the rack in the middle and cook them in a
> pyrex baking dish.
>
> When I notice them starting to brown on the bottom I turn the oven to
> broil so they will brown on top. If I don't they burn on the bottom and
> are basically white up top.
>
> 400 degrees at ten minutes..... I should be so lucky.
>
> I have to cook these puppies for at least twenty minutes before they
> brown up.
>
> What's a biscuit lover to do.
>

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Katherine Becker "As god is my witness
I thought turkeys could fly"
NEVER SEND A FERRET TO DO A WEASEL's JOB --WKRP

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Ophelia wrote:>

> > Well I don't have a rolling pin and have been using my fingers
> > and palm to kinda flatten it down.
>
> I am sure you have a bottle hanging around.. Just make sure it is clean.

Biscuits do not need to be rolled.

SHIVER ME TIMBERS wrote:

>
>
> Correct me If I am wrong but by using my hands I'm not compressing the
> dough enough like a rolling pin would do....??????????

Hands are fine. I used my hands and my bicuits turn out nicely.

biig wrote:

> I make bisquick biscuits a lot and have no problem.....maybe it's your
> oven??? They don't taste like biscuits you get in the south, but for a
> mix they are pretty good. Maybe try brushing them with a bit of melted
> butter? HTH....Sharon in SW Ontario Canada
>
> SHIVER ME TIMBERS wrote:
> > What's a biscuit lover to do. (clipped)

First off, get an oven thermometer. Try it in different spots in your oven.
My bisquits like a hot oven, so warm it up before you bake. Using your oven
thermometer, see how long it takes 10-15 minutes or whatever. Are you at high
altitude? Make altitude adjustments according to package or local ag agent.
And if you overwork your batter by kneading and/or rolling you could make it
tough. Easy does it, just a few kneads and rolls, coupla minutes. Drag them
puppies outta the oven when they get done, leaving them in would overbake. If
you cover them nicely with a tea towel or cover, they will get softish, but
stay warm. Leaving them open will get them cooler, but they'll be crispyish.
A nice easy recipe - self rising flour and thick cream or half-and-half to
texture, then roll and bake at 400F. Maybe buttermilk? Haven't tried it yet.
Would not want a no-fat buttermilk tho, need the fat.
Edrena

jmcquown wrote:

> Hows about you get some some of that Bisquik or Betty Crocker mix


Or if ya make bisquits with any frequency just blend a large amount of the
dry ingredients and store in a canister...that way you'll only have to
measure out the dry mix and add liquid when you get a hankerin' for bisquits
(I make dry cornbread mix and do the same thing)...they are one of the
easiest things to make.

--
Best
Greg

On 2005-04-01, SHIVER ME TIMBERS > wrote:
> Folks.... I'm at my wits end.
>
> I want biscuits.
>
> I've tried Bisquik....

If you're serious, read this less than serious episode of Good Eats:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?R4A825CCA

.....and get some White Lily or Martha White flour.

nb

> biig > wrote:

> And if it has sides, turn it upside down and put some parchment on it
> to keep the biscuits from sticking. I have, in the past used foil with
> the dull side up to prevent having to clean the pan.

I'm gonna try that tonight and I'll let the group know how it turns out.

I must say I'm impressed by the groups response.

One or two pieces of advise I was hoping for, but yikeys, I'm getting
the full monty over my little biscuits.

I finally took a close look at, and tried some of the ones I did last
night.

They were not as crumbly as before, a little spongy and rawish in the
middle, but not bad, but still kinda crumbly.

Here's my problem...... It's been so long since I had a biscuit that I
really don't know what the critter is supposed to look like.

Perhaps I'm expecting it to be like a bread roll... I dunno.

But I feel that I'm getting closer and with the help of those who have
responded, and trying things, like getting a cookie sheet or tonight
trying with a baking pan upside down, etc., that I'm going to get
pretty close to a tasty product.

Again let me say thanks to all who responded, even if I don't reply
directly to your post.... I have read them all and taken them all to
heart.

SHIVER ME TIMBERS wrote:
> Folks.... I'm at my wits end.
>
> I want biscuits.
>
> I've tried Bisquik.... Or however they spell it on the box, and the
> results are terrible.
>
> I've tried mixing it so it's fairly dry and doesn't stick to the
> fingers, I've rolled it and compressed it.
>
> I've made them thin and I've made them thick
>
> It doesn't seem to matter what I do or how I cook them.
>
> They wind up crumbly and raw in the middle.
>
> I cook under high heat with the rack in the middle and cook them in
> a
> pyrex baking dish.
>
> When I notice them starting to brown on the bottom I turn the oven
> to
> broil so they will brown on top. If I don't they burn on the bottom
> and are basically white up top.
>
> 400 degrees at ten minutes..... I should be so lucky.
>
> I have to cook these puppies for at least twenty minutes before they
> brown up.
>
> What's a biscuit lover to do.

Southern Buttermilk Biscuits

2 C all-purpose flour, plus more if needed (it's raining today, so I'd
need more)
1/4 t baking soda
1 T baking powder
1 t salt
6 T lard or vegetable shortening
3/4 C buttermilk

Sift the dry ingredients into a large bowl. Cut in the shortening
with a pastry blender or a fork until the mixture has the texture of
coarse meal (you can do this in a food processor by pulsing it several
times). Add the buttermilk and mix with your hand, lightly but
thoroughly. If the dough is too sticky, mix in a little more flour.
Knead for 1 minute. DO NOT OVERKNEAD. Wrap in wax paper or Saran and
refrigerate until well chilled, at least 20 minutes.

Preheat oven to 450 degrees.

Roll the doubh out 1/2 inch thick on a lightly floured surface or a
pastry cloth. Always roll from the center out for tender, crisp
buscuits. Cut into the desired size.

Place biscuits on a dark baking sheet and bake until golden brown, 10
to 12 minutes.

This will make 25 to 30 biscuits, depending on how big you make them.
Baked biscuits will freeze; do not try to freeze unbaked buttermilk
dough (doesn't work, been there, tried that).

Tips:

Lard will make a crisper biscuit than vegetable shortening.
Overkneading makes them tough.
Too much flour on the pastry board will also toughen them.
Bake them in a very hot oven or they will toughen.
Biscuits will bake faster and browner on a dark baking sheet as
opposed to a light one.

Good luck. Dough is cheap - don't be afraid to keep trying until you
get it right. My grandmother always said I never got it just right.

--
"Life is hard. Life is harder when you're stupid". - John Wayne

"Politics is war without bloodshed while war is politics with
bloodshed" - Mao Zedong

'99 FLHRCI

Remove 74 before replying

> Pizen > wrote:

> Southern Buttermilk Biscuits

Why thank you.... I'm a little overwhelmed at the effort the group is
making to get me my biscuits.

I can see that I will need to start up a file of recipies.

You certainly have a viable group here..... When I started looking the
other day there were over 45000 message headers on my newserver
so I marked them all read and just in the last day there has to be
close to a couple hundred new ones.

I'm going to look forward to trying out some of those recipies that I
see posted here, especially the simple ones with small ingredient
lists.

Thanks to all.... once again.

On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 07:13:04 GMT, SHIVER ME TIMBERS
> wrote:



>The saga continues.
>
>Betty Crocker Biscuit mix.
>
>Take mix - add milk.
>Kept adding mix until dough wasn't sticky,

If you are using a mix, the INSTRUCTIONS should be on the package
somewhere. Stop guessing at how much milk to add and how much mix to
use.
Mix quickly with a fork until dry ingredients are just moist. It will
be lumpy.


> added a bunch of mix to
>metal cake pan,
> rolled and neaded dough in pan,

Do not knead biscuit dough. It makes the biscuits tough. Simply pour
your completed biscuit mix (with liquid added) onto a little plain
flour (or dry mix if you don't have flour) and pat it down with your
hands to desired thickness. FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS to find the
thickness. That may be one reason your biscuits are "raw" in the
middle.

> flattened it out into
>two strips, one higher than the other.

Biscuits aren't made in strips, and again, the bulk of the strips may
be causing the poor results. When you have your dough patted flat, use
the rim of a drinking glass or even a knife to cut your biscuits to
shape. You can also go the "drop biscuit" route and simply drop your
dough onto the baking sheet in big lumps.
>
>Baked at 450 degrees for twenty minutes and then turned off oven and
>left for another half hour.

Again, check your instructions, but baking should be at 450 degrees
for only 10-12 minutes. NO broiling, NO leaving them in the oven for a
half hour.

>Maybe I should stick with the tube of Pillsberry doughboy stuff outta
>the freezer section of the grocery store.

If you follow the directions, listen to all the advice you've been
given, and then still can't manage plain biscuits, then yes, maybe you
should.

SHIVER ME TIMBERS wrote:
>...having trouble making sucessful
>biscuits I thought I'd ask for some advice
>in this newsgroup.
I've made perfectly flaked and perfectly browned buttermilk biscuits for
many years with the Bisquick you mention using. Follow the box
directions to the letter; handle the dough as little as possible, and
know that over-mixing the buttermilk into the dry ingredients is a
no-no. Smaller than pea-size (no more than 3/16") dry specks in the
dough are a good thing, and also what gives the final result of
flakiness. Absolutely use a metal baking SHEET, not a well sided pan of
any sort. If you have no sheet, turn your mentioned and well cleaned
pan over to use it's bottom, or bake the biscuits on doubled foil
instead, at exactly the time and temperature the box tells you to,
centering the rack, or setting it to no more that an inch or so higher
than center works just fine.

Picky ~JA~

> JeanineAlyse in 29 Palms > wrote:

> I've made perfectly flaked and perfectly browned buttermilk
> biscuits for many years with the Bisquick you mention using.

Thanks for your advice..... I'll be giving it
a try in the next few days.

I'm learning, I'm learning.

I'll be a biscuit maker yet.

Thanks everyone.

> JeanineAlyse in 29 Palms > wrote:

> I've made perfectly flaked and perfectly browned buttermilk biscuits for
> many years with the Bisquick you mention using. Follow the box
> directions to the letter;

SUCESS AT LAST..... YIPEEEEEE !!!!!!

Hard to believe but true...... I do believe have just eaten a pretty
tasty biscuit hot out of the oven.

For those interested.... And frankly who isn't, I been doing quite a
few things wrong and it's been an interesting learning experience.

The might not be the best but mixing the milk into the mix, not
stirring it up too much, baking on an upside down cake tin, at
ten minutes they were still pale so I left them another seven minutes
and then hit the broiler...... Nice and brown, kinda flakey - not
crumbly, and pretty tasty.

So I think I'm getting the hang of it, and I should like to thank one
and all who responded with tips, and recipies.

In article >, "jmcquown"
> wrote:

> Jill <--Reading is FUNdimental

You know, if you're going to be critical and snotty, you ought to at
least spell your insults correctly.

Regards,
Ranee

--
Remove Do Not and Spam to email

"She seeks wool and flax, and works with willing hands." Prov 31:13

See my Blog at: http://arabianknits.blogspot.com/

Ranee Mueller wrote:

>
> You know, if you're going to be critical and snotty, you ought to at
> least spell your insults correctly.
>
> Regards,
> Ranee

Ah, but then she wouldn't be Jill. :-)

rona

--
***For e-mail, replace .com with .ca Sorry for the inconvenience!***

"[America] is filled with people who decided not to live in Europe. We
had people who really wanted to live in Europe, but didn't have the
energy to go back. We call them Canadians." ---Grover Norquist in
Newsweek, November 22, 2004

On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 06:51:02 +0900, "Rona Y." >
wrote:

> Ranee Mueller wrote:
>
> >
> > You know, if you're going to be critical and snotty, you ought to at
> > least spell your insults correctly.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Ranee
>
> Ah, but then she wouldn't be Jill. :-)
>

Woah, cat fight... I missed this thread too.

<dang>

sf
<wondering if my news server (GigaNews) really sucks>



"We must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our election between economy and liberty or profusion and servitude"

"If we run into such debt, as that we must be taxed in our meat and in our drink, in our necessaries and our comforts, in our labors and our amusements, for our calling and our creeds...we [will] have no time to think, no means of calling our miss-managers to account but be glad to obtain subsistence by hiring ourselves to rivet their chains on the necks of our fellow-sufferers. And this is the tendency of all human governments. A departure from principle in one instance becomes a precedent for another till the bulk of society is reduced to be mere automatons of misery.

"And the fore-horse of this frightful team is public debt. Taxation follows that and in its train wretchedness and oppression." - Thomas Jefferson - Author of The Declaration of Independence, Founding Father and Third U.S. President