On Sunday, 17 July 2016 14:28:39 UTC-5, Jeßus wrote:


> Those are quite contrasting experiences there. I like the sound of
> those sandwiches. I *especially* like the idea of no generic fast food
> places contaminating the place, and much of contemporary western
> culture, for that matter.


Ya gotta love a snotty statement like this, declaring that a place should remain dirt poor, just so rich foreigners like himself can keep the place to themselves. Some think that Cuba should remain some sort of closed "socialist Disneyland", unsullied by modernity. Pretty shameful...

I've got news for ya: the ordinary Cuban cannot *wait* until "generic fast food" and other manifestations of "contemporary western culture" appear, they will be celebrating.

Believe or not, ordinary Cubans desire things such as modern retail, internet, reliable sewerage and electricity, refrigeration and air conditioning, etc. There is no reason they should remain "quaint natives" just for the sake of rich First World tourists...


--
Best
Greg

"The Greatest!" > wrote in message
...
On Sunday, 17 July 2016 14:28:39 UTC-5, Jeßus wrote:


> Those are quite contrasting experiences there. I like the sound of
> those sandwiches. I *especially* like the idea of no generic fast food
> places contaminating the place, and much of contemporary western
> culture, for that matter.


Ya gotta love a snotty statement like this, declaring that a place should
remain dirt poor, just so rich foreigners like himself can keep the place to
themselves. Some think that Cuba should remain some sort of closed
"socialist Disneyland", unsullied by modernity. Pretty shameful...

I've got news for ya: the ordinary Cuban cannot *wait* until "generic fast
food" and other manifestations of "contemporary western culture" appear,
they will be celebrating.

Believe or not, ordinary Cubans desire things such as modern retail,
internet, reliable sewerage and electricity, refrigeration and air
conditioning, etc. There is no reason they should remain "quaint natives"
just for the sake of rich First World tourists...


--
Best
Greg

==========

+1

Cheri

Cheri wrote:
>
> "The Greatest!" > wrote in message
> ...
> On Sunday, 17 July 2016 14:28:39 UTC-5, Jeßus wrote:
>
> > Those are quite contrasting experiences there. I like the sound of
> > those sandwiches. I *especially* like the idea of no generic fast food
> > places contaminating the place, and much of contemporary western
> > culture, for that matter.
>
> Ya gotta love a snotty statement like this, declaring that a place should
> remain dirt poor, just so rich foreigners like himself can keep the place to
> themselves. Some think that Cuba should remain some sort of closed
> "socialist Disneyland", unsullied by modernity. Pretty shameful...
>
> I've got news for ya: the ordinary Cuban cannot *wait* until "generic fast
> food" and other manifestations of "contemporary western culture" appear,
> they will be celebrating.
>
> Believe or not, ordinary Cubans desire things such as modern retail,
> internet, reliable sewerage and electricity, refrigeration and air
> conditioning, etc. There is no reason they should remain "quaint natives"
> just for the sake of rich First World tourists...
>
> --
> Best
> Greg
>
> ==========
>
> +1
>
> Cheri

I agree too, Cheri and Greg. And it's about time that the US lifted that
stupid ban on Cuba.

On Monday, 18 July 2016 11:43:58 UTC-5, Gary wrote:
> Cheri wrote:
> >
> > "The Greatest!" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > On Sunday, 17 July 2016 14:28:39 UTC-5, Jeßus wrote:
> >
> > > Those are quite contrasting experiences there. I like the sound of
> > > those sandwiches. I *especially* like the idea of no generic fast food
> > > places contaminating the place, and much of contemporary western
> > > culture, for that matter.
> >
> > Ya gotta love a snotty statement like this, declaring that a place should
> > remain dirt poor, just so rich foreigners like himself can keep the place to
> > themselves. Some think that Cuba should remain some sort of closed
> > "socialist Disneyland", unsullied by modernity. Pretty shameful...
> >
> > I've got news for ya: the ordinary Cuban cannot *wait* until "generic fast
> > food" and other manifestations of "contemporary western culture" appear,
> > they will be celebrating.
> >
> > Believe or not, ordinary Cubans desire things such as modern retail,
> > internet, reliable sewerage and electricity, refrigeration and air
> > conditioning, etc. There is no reason they should remain "quaint natives"
> > just for the sake of rich First World tourists...
> >
> > --
> > Best
> > Greg
> >
> > ==========
> >
> > +1
> >
> > Cheri
>
> I agree too, Cheri and Greg. And it's about time that the US lifted that
> stupid ban on Cuba.


Yup, it was sour grapes on our side., it made us look pretty petty after a few decades time. OTOH Fidel used the US embargo as a cudgel in order to prevent systemic change. Curing the embargo, Cuba was free to trade with any nation in the world. Problem is, their socialist economy never performed well in any case, and so they were too poor to pay for stuff on the normal world market; they were dependent on handouts from the USSR, and now their oil handouts from quickly - failing Venezuela are hitting the skids.

Anyways, one of the best ways to open up a "closed" society is via people - to - people visits via cultural exchange, tourism, etc.

A major reason the old USSR fell was because of the eventual exposure of ordinary Soviet citizens to the outside world via government - to - government cultural exchanges, e.g. sporting and cultural events, education and exchanges, trade fairs, and the like. The Soviet government allowed The British Council, Maison Francaise, Goethe Institut, and the USIA (the old United States Information Agency) in to hold exhibits, open reading rooms, and the like. Once Soviets were aware that citizens in the Evil Decadent Capitalist West were living better than they, Pandora's Box was open and the USSR was doomed...also western shortwave radios, BBC/Voice of America/etc., penetrated the old Iron Curtain.

Cuba is not quite as isolated as the old USSR was, or North Korea is, but there is no reason Cuba cannot thrive if it's people are given a reasonable chance...

--
Best
Greg

On 2016-07-18 12:45 PM, Gary wrote:

> I agree too, Cheri and Greg. And it's about time that the US lifted that
> stupid ban on Cuba.

It is past due. I know that some Americans are still ****ed that Cuba
nationalized some American businesses 55 years ago. It should be noted
that the nationalization was done step by step in reaction to American
plots to kill Castro and to destabilize the new regime. Sure, Castro
was a *******, but so was the American backed dictator that his forces
overthrew.

On Mon, 18 Jul 2016 14:00:13 -0400, Dave Smith
> wrote:

> On 2016-07-18 12:45 PM, Gary wrote:
>
> > I agree too, Cheri and Greg. And it's about time that the US lifted that
> > stupid ban on Cuba.
>
> It is past due. I know that some Americans are still ****ed that Cuba
> nationalized some American businesses 55 years ago. It should be noted
> that the nationalization was done step by step in reaction to American
> plots to kill Castro and to destabilize the new regime. Sure, Castro
> was a *******, but so was the American backed dictator that his forces
> overthrew.
>
Florida is filled with old Cuban "patrons" (important people) who are
still mad that Castro nationalized their factories and farms. They're
slowly dying off and the younger generation wants normalized relations
with Cuba.

--

sf

On Mon, 18 Jul 2016 14:00:13 -0400, Dave Smith
> wrote:

>On 2016-07-18 12:45 PM, Gary wrote:
>
>> I agree too, Cheri and Greg. And it's about time that the US lifted that
>> stupid ban on Cuba.
>
>It is past due. I know that some Americans are still ****ed that Cuba
>nationalized some American businesses 55 years ago. It should be noted
>that the nationalization was done step by step in reaction to American
>plots to kill Castro and to destabilize the new regime. Sure, Castro
>was a *******, but so was the American backed dictator that his forces
>overthrew.

We heard that some of the delay is occurring because not surprisingly
they want the power to deport any US mafia types who move in as they
did in the 1920s.

On Mon, 18 Jul 2016 12:45:16 -0400, Gary > wrote:

> I agree too, Cheri and Greg. And it's about time that the US lifted that
> stupid ban on Cuba.

You can go now. Conditions will change quickly after the Castro
brothers die. http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/17/travel/cuba-travel-feat/

--

sf

"sf" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 18 Jul 2016 12:45:16 -0400, Gary > wrote:
>
>> I agree too, Cheri and Greg. And it's about time that the US lifted that
>> stupid ban on Cuba.
>
> You can go now. Conditions will change quickly after the Castro
> brothers die. http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/17/travel/cuba-travel-feat/
>
> --
>
> sf

Which from the looks of them could be quite soon.

Cheri

"Gary" > wrote in message ...
> Cheri wrote:
>>
>> "The Greatest!" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> On Sunday, 17 July 2016 14:28:39 UTC-5, Jeßus wrote:
>>
>> > Those are quite contrasting experiences there. I like the sound of
>> > those sandwiches. I *especially* like the idea of no generic fast food
>> > places contaminating the place, and much of contemporary western
>> > culture, for that matter.
>>
>> Ya gotta love a snotty statement like this, declaring that a place should
>> remain dirt poor, just so rich foreigners like himself can keep the place
>> to
>> themselves. Some think that Cuba should remain some sort of closed
>> "socialist Disneyland", unsullied by modernity. Pretty shameful...
>>
>> I've got news for ya: the ordinary Cuban cannot *wait* until "generic
>> fast
>> food" and other manifestations of "contemporary western culture" appear,
>> they will be celebrating.
>>
>> Believe or not, ordinary Cubans desire things such as modern retail,
>> internet, reliable sewerage and electricity, refrigeration and air
>> conditioning, etc. There is no reason they should remain "quaint
>> natives"
>> just for the sake of rich First World tourists...
>>
>> --
>> Best
>> Greg
>>
>> ==========
>>
>> +1
>>
>> Cheri
>
> I agree too, Cheri and Greg. And it's about time that the US lifted that
> stupid ban on Cuba.

I always thought it was stupid.

Cheri

On Mon, 18 Jul 2016 13:34:00 -0700, "Cheri" >
wrote:

>
> "Gary" > wrote in message ...
> >
> > I agree too, Cheri and Greg. And it's about time that the US lifted that
> > stupid ban on Cuba.
>
> I always thought it was stupid.
>
I think most normal people did after the cold war ended.

--

sf

On Monday, 18 July 2016 10:04:03 UTC-5, Cheri wrote:
> "The Greatest!" > wrote in message
> ...
> On Sunday, 17 July 2016 14:28:39 UTC-5, Jeßus wrote:
>
>
> > Those are quite contrasting experiences there. I like the sound of
> > those sandwiches. I *especially* like the idea of no generic fast food
> > places contaminating the place, and much of contemporary western
> > culture, for that matter.
>
>
> Ya gotta love a snotty statement like this, declaring that a place should
> remain dirt poor, just so rich foreigners like himself can keep the place to
> themselves. Some think that Cuba should remain some sort of closed
> "socialist Disneyland", unsullied by modernity. Pretty shameful...
>
> I've got news for ya: the ordinary Cuban cannot *wait* until "generic fast
> food" and other manifestations of "contemporary western culture" appear,
> they will be celebrating.
>
> Believe or not, ordinary Cubans desire things such as modern retail,
> internet, reliable sewerage and electricity, refrigeration and air
> conditioning, etc. There is no reason they should remain "quaint natives"
> just for the sake of rich First World tourists...
>
>
> --
> Best
> Greg
>
> ==========
>
> +1


I'm just badgering our Canadian friends a bit, no harm intended ;-)

But this attitude that Americans/western culture/chain restos/whatever is going to "damage" Cuban culture is sheer nonsense. Just because chain dining or whatever gets established doesn't mean that visitors to Cuba will be forced to eat at McD's, it's simply another option...

In the early 90's there was this sort of disdainful and condescending attitude the opening up of the former Communist states in Eastern/Central Europe, e.g., "Hurry up and see Prague/Warsaw/Moscow/wherever before the AMERICANS and MCDONALD's comes in to SPOIL everything...!!!"

Lemme tell, some Czech acquaintances mentioned that they were THRILLED when McD's, and Marks & Spencer, Tesco, IKEA, and other western chains opened up in their country. For them, it meant that they'd "arrived"...same is/will happen with the Cubans.

IIRC some tens of thousands of Muscovites lined up on the opening day of the first McDonald's in Moscow. And IIRC that location is the single busiest McD's in the world...

I can't stomach McD's, but I'm just sayin'... if all you've got to do is slag on fast food as a symbol that a country is forever "ruined", then you've a fairly **** - poor "argument".

North Korea is just about the only place left that is fairly devoid of "western influence", and that will eventually change, too. So visit there if what you're looking for is an unspoiled Third World/Communist "theme park' of a place.


--
Best
Greg

On Monday, July 18, 2016 at 6:58:17 AM UTC-10, The Greatest! wrote:
> On Monday, 18 July 2016 10:04:03 UTC-5, Cheri wrote:
> > "The Greatest!" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > On Sunday, 17 July 2016 14:28:39 UTC-5, Jeßus wrote:
> >
> >
> > > Those are quite contrasting experiences there. I like the sound of
> > > those sandwiches. I *especially* like the idea of no generic fast food
> > > places contaminating the place, and much of contemporary western
> > > culture, for that matter.
> >
> >
> > Ya gotta love a snotty statement like this, declaring that a place should
> > remain dirt poor, just so rich foreigners like himself can keep the place to
> > themselves. Some think that Cuba should remain some sort of closed
> > "socialist Disneyland", unsullied by modernity. Pretty shameful...
> >
> > I've got news for ya: the ordinary Cuban cannot *wait* until "generic fast
> > food" and other manifestations of "contemporary western culture" appear,
> > they will be celebrating.
> >
> > Believe or not, ordinary Cubans desire things such as modern retail,
> > internet, reliable sewerage and electricity, refrigeration and air
> > conditioning, etc. There is no reason they should remain "quaint natives"
> > just for the sake of rich First World tourists...
> >
> >
> > --
> > Best
> > Greg
> >
> > ==========
> >
> > +1
>
>
> I'm just badgering our Canadian friends a bit, no harm intended ;-)
>
> But this attitude that Americans/western culture/chain restos/whatever is going to "damage" Cuban culture is sheer nonsense. Just because chain dining or whatever gets established doesn't mean that visitors to Cuba will be forced to eat at McD's, it's simply another option...
>
> In the early 90's there was this sort of disdainful and condescending attitude the opening up of the former Communist states in Eastern/Central Europe, e.g., "Hurry up and see Prague/Warsaw/Moscow/wherever before the AMERICANS and MCDONALD's comes in to SPOIL everything...!!!"
>
> Lemme tell, some Czech acquaintances mentioned that they were THRILLED when McD's, and Marks & Spencer, Tesco, IKEA, and other western chains opened up in their country. For them, it meant that they'd "arrived"...same is/will happen with the Cubans.
>
> IIRC some tens of thousands of Muscovites lined up on the opening day of the first McDonald's in Moscow. And IIRC that location is the single busiest McD's in the world...
>
> I can't stomach McD's, but I'm just sayin'... if all you've got to do is slag on fast food as a symbol that a country is forever "ruined", then you've a fairly **** - poor "argument".
>
> North Korea is just about the only place left that is fairly devoid of "western influence", and that will eventually change, too. So visit there if what you're looking for is an unspoiled Third World/Communist "theme park' of a place.
>
>
> --
> Best
> Greg

It's an odd thing that a simple embargo of a country by the US could freeze it in the late 50's. Some Americans would like this to be 1950's America but my guess is that most Cubans would like to get the hell out of that time zone.

dsi1 wrote:

> On Monday, July 18, 2016 at 6:58:17 AM UTC-10, The Greatest! wrote:
> > On Monday, 18 July 2016 10:04:03 UTC-5, Cheri wrote:
> > > "The Greatest!" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > On Sunday, 17 July 2016 14:28:39 UTC-5, Jeßus wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > > Those are quite contrasting experiences there. I like the sound of
> > > > those sandwiches. I *especially* like the idea of no generic fast food
> > > > places contaminating the place, and much of contemporary western
> > > > culture, for that matter.
> > >
> > >
> > > Ya gotta love a snotty statement like this, declaring that a place should
> > > remain dirt poor, just so rich foreigners like himself can keep the place to
> > > themselves. Some think that Cuba should remain some sort of closed
> > > "socialist Disneyland", unsullied by modernity. Pretty shameful...
> > >
> > > I've got news for ya: the ordinary Cuban cannot *wait* until "generic fast
> > > food" and other manifestations of "contemporary western culture" appear,
> > > they will be celebrating.
> > >
> > > Believe or not, ordinary Cubans desire things such as modern retail,
> > > internet, reliable sewerage and electricity, refrigeration and air
> > > conditioning, etc. There is no reason they should remain "quaint natives"
> > > just for the sake of rich First World tourists...
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Best
> > > Greg
> > >
> > > ==========
> > >
> > > +1
> >
> >
> > I'm just badgering our Canadian friends a bit, no harm intended ;-)
> >
> > But this attitude that Americans/western culture/chain restos/whatever is going to "damage" Cuban culture is sheer nonsense. Just because chain dining or whatever gets established doesn't mean that visitors to Cuba will be forced to eat at McD's, it's simply another option...
> >
> > In the early 90's there was this sort of disdainful and condescending attitude the opening up of the former Communist states in Eastern/Central Europe, e.g., "Hurry up and see Prague/Warsaw/Moscow/wherever before the AMERICANS and MCDONALD's comes in to SPOIL everything...!!!"
> >
> > Lemme tell, some Czech acquaintances mentioned that they were THRILLED when McD's, and Marks & Spencer, Tesco, IKEA, and other western chains opened up in their country. For them, it meant that they'd "arrived"...same is/will happen with the Cubans.
> >
> > IIRC some tens of thousands of Muscovites lined up on the opening day of the first McDonald's in Moscow. And IIRC that location is the single busiest McD's in the world...
> >
> > I can't stomach McD's, but I'm just sayin'... if all you've got to do is slag on fast food as a symbol that a country is forever "ruined", then you've a fairly **** - poor "argument".
> >
> > North Korea is just about the only place left that is fairly devoid of "western influence", and that will eventually change, too. So visit there if what you're looking for is an unspoiled Third World/Communist "theme park' of a place.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Best
> > Greg
>
> It's an odd thing that a simple embargo of a country by the US could freeze it in the late 50's.


During the time when Cuba depended on the Soviet Bloc, they imported plenty of East German refrigerators, Czech machine tools, Soviet cars, they built socialist - style high rise flats, etc...but of course there is more nostalgia for old US brands like Kelvinator and Plymouth and Admiral and for old mafia - built hotels such as the Capri, and the like....kind of "we choose what we choose to see" ;-)

Also, Cuba invested a lot of money in "social capital", such as education, medical care, and the like, and their physical infrastructure has essentially gone to hell...no money.

Some Americans would like this to be 1950's America but my guess is that most Cubans would like to get the hell out of that time zone.


Yup...EXACTLY...


--
Best
Greg

On Monday, July 18, 2016 at 7:43:47 AM UTC-10, The Greatest! wrote:
> dsi1 wrote:
>
> > On Monday, July 18, 2016 at 6:58:17 AM UTC-10, The Greatest! wrote:
> > > On Monday, 18 July 2016 10:04:03 UTC-5, Cheri wrote:
> > > > "The Greatest!" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > On Sunday, 17 July 2016 14:28:39 UTC-5, Jeßus wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Those are quite contrasting experiences there. I like the sound of
> > > > > those sandwiches. I *especially* like the idea of no generic fast food
> > > > > places contaminating the place, and much of contemporary western
> > > > > culture, for that matter.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ya gotta love a snotty statement like this, declaring that a place should
> > > > remain dirt poor, just so rich foreigners like himself can keep the place to
> > > > themselves. Some think that Cuba should remain some sort of closed
> > > > "socialist Disneyland", unsullied by modernity. Pretty shameful...
> > > >
> > > > I've got news for ya: the ordinary Cuban cannot *wait* until "generic fast
> > > > food" and other manifestations of "contemporary western culture" appear,
> > > > they will be celebrating.
> > > >
> > > > Believe or not, ordinary Cubans desire things such as modern retail,
> > > > internet, reliable sewerage and electricity, refrigeration and air
> > > > conditioning, etc. There is no reason they should remain "quaint natives"
> > > > just for the sake of rich First World tourists...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Best
> > > > Greg
> > > >
> > > > ==========
> > > >
> > > > +1
> > >
> > >
> > > I'm just badgering our Canadian friends a bit, no harm intended ;-)
> > >
> > > But this attitude that Americans/western culture/chain restos/whatever is going to "damage" Cuban culture is sheer nonsense. Just because chain dining or whatever gets established doesn't mean that visitors to Cuba will be forced to eat at McD's, it's simply another option...
> > >
> > > In the early 90's there was this sort of disdainful and condescending attitude the opening up of the former Communist states in Eastern/Central Europe, e.g., "Hurry up and see Prague/Warsaw/Moscow/wherever before the AMERICANS and MCDONALD's comes in to SPOIL everything...!!!"
> > >
> > > Lemme tell, some Czech acquaintances mentioned that they were THRILLED when McD's, and Marks & Spencer, Tesco, IKEA, and other western chains opened up in their country. For them, it meant that they'd "arrived"...same is/will happen with the Cubans.
> > >
> > > IIRC some tens of thousands of Muscovites lined up on the opening day of the first McDonald's in Moscow. And IIRC that location is the single busiest McD's in the world...
> > >
> > > I can't stomach McD's, but I'm just sayin'... if all you've got to do is slag on fast food as a symbol that a country is forever "ruined", then you've a fairly **** - poor "argument".
> > >
> > > North Korea is just about the only place left that is fairly devoid of "western influence", and that will eventually change, too. So visit there if what you're looking for is an unspoiled Third World/Communist "theme park' of a place.
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Best
> > > Greg
> >
> > It's an odd thing that a simple embargo of a country by the US could freeze it in the late 50's.
>
>
> During the time when Cuba depended on the Soviet Bloc, they imported plenty of East German refrigerators, Czech machine tools, Soviet cars, they built socialist - style high rise flats, etc...but of course there is more nostalgia for old US brands like Kelvinator and Plymouth and Admiral and for old mafia - built hotels such as the Capri, and the like....kind of "we choose what we choose to see" ;-)
>
> Also, Cuba invested a lot of money in "social capital", such as education, medical care, and the like, and their physical infrastructure has essentially gone to hell...no money.
>
> Some Americans would like this to be 1950's America but my guess is that most Cubans would like to get the hell out of that time zone.
>
>
> Yup...EXACTLY...
>
>
> --
> Best
> Greg

Actually, I wouldn't mind being back in the 60's - but only if I was 17.

On 7/18/2016 5:03 PM, dsi1 wrote:

>
> Actually, I wouldn't mind being back in the 60's - but only if I was 17.
>

I was 17 in 1962-63. No real desire to go back. Let me know if you go
though, I'll give you the keys to my '53 Mercury.

In article >,
says...
>
> On Monday, July 18, 2016 at 7:43:47 AM UTC-10, The Greatest! wrote:
> > dsi1 wrote:
> >
> > > On Monday, July 18, 2016 at 6:58:17 AM UTC-10, The Greatest! wrote:
> > > > On Monday, 18 July 2016 10:04:03 UTC-5, Cheri wrote:
> > > > > "The Greatest!" > wrote in message
> > > > > ...
> > > > > On Sunday, 17 July 2016 14:28:39 UTC-5, Jeþus wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Those are quite contrasting experiences there. I like the sound of
> > > > > > those sandwiches. I *especially* like the idea of no generic fast food
> > > > > > places contaminating the place, and much of contemporary western
> > > > > > culture, for that matter.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Ya gotta love a snotty statement like this, declaring that a place should
> > > > > remain dirt poor, just so rich foreigners like himself can keep the place to
> > > > > themselves. Some think that Cuba should remain some sort of closed
> > > > > "socialist Disneyland", unsullied by modernity. Pretty shameful...
> > > > >
> > > > > I've got news for ya: the ordinary Cuban cannot *wait* until "generic fast
> > > > > food" and other manifestations of "contemporary western culture" appear,
> > > > > they will be celebrating.
> > > > >
> > > > > Believe or not, ordinary Cubans desire things such as modern retail,
> > > > > internet, reliable sewerage and electricity, refrigeration and air
> > > > > conditioning, etc. There is no reason they should remain "quaint natives"
> > > > > just for the sake of rich First World tourists...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Best
> > > > > Greg
> > > > >
> > > > > ==========
> > > > >
> > > > > +1
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I'm just badgering our Canadian friends a bit, no harm intended ;-)
> > > >
> > > > But this attitude that Americans/western culture/chain restos/whatever is going to "damage" Cuban culture is sheer nonsense. Just because chain dining or whatever gets established doesn't mean that visitors to Cuba will be forced to eat at McD's, it's simply another option...
> > > >
> > > > In the early 90's there was this sort of disdainful and condescending attitude the opening up of the former Communist states in Eastern/Central Europe, e.g., "Hurry up and see Prague/Warsaw/Moscow/wherever before the AMERICANS and MCDONALD's comes in to SPOIL everything...!!!"
> > > >
> > > > Lemme tell, some Czech acquaintances mentioned that they were THRILLED when McD's, and Marks & Spencer, Tesco, IKEA, and other western chains opened up in their country. For them, it meant that they'd "arrived"...same is/will happen with the Cubans.
> > > >
> > > > IIRC some tens of thousands of Muscovites lined up on the opening day of the first McDonald's in Moscow. And IIRC that location is the single busiest McD's in the world...
> > > >
> > > > I can't stomach McD's, but I'm just sayin'... if all you've got to do is slag on fast food as a symbol that a country is forever "ruined", then you've a fairly **** - poor "argument".
> > > >
> > > > North Korea is just about the only place left that is fairly devoid of "western influence", and that will eventually change, too. So visit there if what you're looking for is an unspoiled Third World/Communist "theme park' of a place.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Best
> > > > Greg
> > >
> > > It's an odd thing that a simple embargo of a country by the US could freeze it in the late 50's.
> >
> >
> > During the time when Cuba depended on the Soviet Bloc, they imported plenty of East German refrigerators, Czech machine tools, Soviet cars, they built socialist - style high rise flats, etc...but of course there is more nostalgia for old US brands like Kelvinator and Plymouth and Admiral and for old mafia - built hotels such as the Capri, and the like....kind of "we choose what we choose to see" ;-)
> >
> > Also, Cuba invested a lot of money in "social capital", such as education, medical care, and the like, and their physical infrastructure has essentially gone to hell...no money.
> >
> > Some Americans would like this to be 1950's America but my guess is that most Cubans would like to get the hell out of that time zone.
> >
> >
> > Yup...EXACTLY...
> >
> >
> > --
> > Best
> > Greg
>
> Actually, I wouldn't mind being back in the 60's - but only if I was 17.

I'd hate to be 17 again; adulthood is much more fun.

Janet UK

On 2016-07-18 1:22 PM, dsi1 wrote:

> It's an odd thing that a simple embargo of a country by the US could
> freeze it in the late 50's. Some Americans would like this to be
> 1950's America but my guess is that most Cubans would like to get the
> hell out of that time zone.
>

But who wants to mess with the Cuban community in Florida, many of who
are mobsters in exile. Look what happened to JFK when he let them down.

On Monday, July 18, 2016 at 8:07:14 AM UTC-10, Dave Smith wrote:
> On 2016-07-18 1:22 PM, dsi1 wrote:
>
> > It's an odd thing that a simple embargo of a country by the US could
> > freeze it in the late 50's. Some Americans would like this to be
> > 1950's America but my guess is that most Cubans would like to get the
> > hell out of that time zone.
> >
>
> But who wants to mess with the Cuban community in Florida, many of who
> are mobsters in exile. Look what happened to JFK when he let them down.

I believe you!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiFX0rYoCrU

On Mon, 18 Jul 2016 10:22:45 -0700 (PDT), dsi1 >
wrote:

> It's an odd thing that a simple embargo of a country by the US could freeze it in the late 50's. Some Americans would like this to be 1950's America but my guess is that most Cubans would like to get the hell out of that time zone.

You just gave me an idea! We can trade them our "back to the '50's"
people for the Cubans who want to leave the '50's. Think we could
seal that deal?

--

sf

"sf" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 18 Jul 2016 10:22:45 -0700 (PDT), dsi1 >
> wrote:
>
>> It's an odd thing that a simple embargo of a country by the US could
>> freeze it in the late 50's. Some Americans would like this to be 1950's
>> America but my guess is that most Cubans would like to get the hell out
>> of that time zone.
>
> You just gave me an idea! We can trade them our "back to the '50's"
> people for the Cubans who want to leave the '50's. Think we could
> seal that deal?
>
> --
>
> sf

Nah, most of the back to the 50's people don't speak Spanish, and don't want
to learn. :-)

Cheri

On Mon, 18 Jul 2016 13:37:55 -0700, "Cheri" >
wrote:

>
> "sf" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Mon, 18 Jul 2016 10:22:45 -0700 (PDT), dsi1 >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> It's an odd thing that a simple embargo of a country by the US could
> >> freeze it in the late 50's. Some Americans would like this to be 1950's
> >> America but my guess is that most Cubans would like to get the hell out
> >> of that time zone.
> >
> > You just gave me an idea! We can trade them our "back to the '50's"
> > people for the Cubans who want to leave the '50's. Think we could
> > seal that deal?
> >
> > --
> >
> > sf
>
> Nah, most of the back to the 50's people don't speak Spanish, and don't want
> to learn. :-)
>
Isn't that the way most ex-pats are anyway? They socialize with other
English speakers, don't learn the language and ignore locals other
than to employ them as servants.

--

sf

"sf" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 18 Jul 2016 10:22:45 -0700 (PDT), dsi1 >
> wrote:
>
>> It's an odd thing that a simple embargo of a country by the US could
>> freeze it in the late 50's. Some Americans would like this to be 1950's
>> America but my guess is that most Cubans would like to get the hell out
>> of that time zone.
>
> You just gave me an idea! We can trade them our "back to the '50's"
> people for the Cubans who want to leave the '50's. Think we could
> seal that deal?

Heh. I can see liking that style of decor or dress or the like but those
people take things too far.

On Monday, July 18, 2016 at 8:32:05 AM UTC-10, sf wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Jul 2016 10:22:45 -0700 (PDT), dsi1 <dsim>
> wrote:
>
> > It's an odd thing that a simple embargo of a country by the US could freeze it in the late 50's. Some Americans would like this to be 1950's America but my guess is that most Cubans would like to get the hell out of that time zone.
>
> You just gave me an idea! We can trade them our "back to the '50's"
> people for the Cubans who want to leave the '50's. Think we could
> seal that deal?
>
> --
>
> sf

Cuba could give Hawaii some competition for the touristias' dinero - especially for East-coast travellers. They should just turn the place into Hawaii during the early 60's. That would be too cool.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJK2LwD_nEY

"dsi1" > wrote in message
...
> On Monday, July 18, 2016 at 8:32:05 AM UTC-10, sf wrote:
>> On Mon, 18 Jul 2016 10:22:45 -0700 (PDT), dsi1 <dsim>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > It's an odd thing that a simple embargo of a country by the US could
>> > freeze it in the late 50's. Some Americans would like this to be 1950's
>> > America but my guess is that most Cubans would like to get the hell out
>> > of that time zone.
>>
>> You just gave me an idea! We can trade them our "back to the '50's"
>> people for the Cubans who want to leave the '50's. Think we could
>> seal that deal?
>>
>> --
>>
>> sf
>
> Cuba could give Hawaii some competition for the touristias' dinero -
> especially for East-coast travellers. They should just turn the place into
> Hawaii during the early 60's. That would be too cool.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJK2LwD_nEY

Beautiful

--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

On 7/18/2016 12:58 PM, The Greatest! wrote:

> I can't stomach McD's, but I'm just sayin'... if all you've got to do is slag on fast food as a symbol that a country is forever "ruined", then you've a fairly **** - poor "argument".
>

I've been to other countries that have great food, historic
architecture, rich history and everything that goes with visiting other
cultures. We did, however, stop at McDonalds because the offer
something often hard to find in other countries: clean, free restrooms.
We were happy to see them.

In article >,
says...
>
> On 7/18/2016 12:58 PM, The Greatest! wrote:
>
> > I can't stomach McD's, but I'm just sayin'... if all you've got to do is slag on fast food as a symbol that a country is forever "ruined", then you've a fairly **** - poor "argument".
> >
>
> I've been to other countries that have great food, historic
> architecture, rich history and everything that goes with visiting other
> cultures. We did, however, stop at McDonalds because the offer
> something often hard to find in other countries: clean, free restrooms.
> We were happy to see them.

That makes one wonder what kind of joints you go to in those other
countries.

On 7/18/2016 9:38 AM, The Greatest! wrote:
> On Sunday, 17 July 2016 14:28:39 UTC-5, Jeßus wrote:
>
>
>> Those are quite contrasting experiences there. I like the sound of
>> those sandwiches. I *especially* like the idea of no generic fast food
>> places contaminating the place, and much of contemporary western
>> culture, for that matter.
>
>
> Ya gotta love a snotty statement like this, declaring that a place should remain dirt poor, just so rich foreigners like himself can keep the place to themselves. Some think that Cuba should remain some sort of closed "socialist Disneyland", unsullied by modernity. Pretty shameful...
>

I imagine it will have the same facade for decades but they sure deserve
every modern convenience that we have. Just as many cities in Europe
maintain historic districts, behind the walls are electric lights!

I have to wonder though, in a year or so of open tourism and cruise ship
invasions will they say "Yankee, go home"

On Mon, 18 Jul 2016 19:43:02 -0400, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:

>On 7/18/2016 9:38 AM, The Greatest! wrote:
>> On Sunday, 17 July 2016 14:28:39 UTC-5, Jeßus wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Those are quite contrasting experiences there. I like the sound of
>>> those sandwiches. I *especially* like the idea of no generic fast food
>>> places contaminating the place, and much of contemporary western
>>> culture, for that matter.
>>
>>
>> Ya gotta love a snotty statement like this, declaring that a place should remain dirt poor, just so rich foreigners like himself can keep the place to themselves. Some think that Cuba should remain some sort of closed "socialist Disneyland", unsullied by modernity. Pretty shameful...
>>
>
>I imagine it will have the same facade for decades but they sure deserve
>every modern convenience that we have. Just as many cities in Europe
>maintain historic districts, behind the walls are electric lights!
>
>I have to wonder though, in a year or so of open tourism and cruise ship
>invasions will they say "Yankee, go home"

I dunno, but I wish them well and a little more prosperity in their
lives. I asked one of them what Fidel does these days and he said he
lives on an island (not far from where we were) thinks he is still
wonderful and has some women around him, not that he is wonderful
there either

On 2016-07-18 7:43 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 7/18/2016 9:38 AM, The Greatest! wrote:
>> On Sunday, 17 July 2016 14:28:39 UTC-5, Jeßus wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Those are quite contrasting experiences there. I like the sound of
>>> those sandwiches. I *especially* like the idea of no generic fast food
>>> places contaminating the place, and much of contemporary western
>>> culture, for that matter.
>>
>>
>> Ya gotta love a snotty statement like this, declaring that a place
>> should remain dirt poor, just so rich foreigners like himself can keep
>> the place to themselves. Some think that Cuba should remain some sort
>> of closed "socialist Disneyland", unsullied by modernity. Pretty
>> shameful...
>>
>
> I imagine it will have the same facade for decades but they sure deserve
> every modern convenience that we have. Just as many cities in Europe
> maintain historic districts, behind the walls are electric lights!

Who says that they can't have economic progress without all the crappy
franchises and fast food joints?

> I have to wonder though, in a year or so of open tourism and cruise ship
> invasions will they say "Yankee, go home"

To be fair, the US had its eyes on Cuba in the mid 1800s. Daniel Sickles
was sent to Europe to feel out France and Britain about American hopes
to liberate Cuba from Span and annex it to the US. The US had a major
and very negative impact on the Cuban economy. Americans bought up large
tracts of land and used it to produce sugar, a very volatile commodity,
and later on there was decadent night live and the American mobsters in
cahoots with the corrupt Cuban government.