jmcquown wrote:
>
> On 8/2/2013 5:38 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> > On Fri, 02 Aug 2013 02:12:25 -0400, Cheryl >
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >> I just use my generator to keep my fridge and downstairs freezer going.
> >> Oh, and my hair dryer if the power is still out when I have to go to
> >> work. I will power my laptop if the battery runs out, but with no
> >> internet there's no point really. If I'm bored I'll play computer games
> >> if I can't find something else to do. I also like to keep some lights
> >> going because I can't stand just candlelight or flashlights for very long.
> >
> > Why do you lose internet? Does the cable go out? I have DSL and it
> > will stay on as long as my battery backup has power. I don't think
> > I've ever lost phone service.
> >
> Ah, but there is always an exception. I had DSL when I lived in TN.
> Massive storms knocked out the power in a tri-state area (some places
> for weeks). It also zapped the phone lines in some areas, mine
> included. I didn't have a cordless phone, just plug-into-the-wall
> phones. DSL didn't work, nothing worked. You've been lucky.
>
> Jill

In the old days, phone service was ultra reliable because everyone was
individually wired directly back to a Central Office (CO) building that
was staffed, had backup generators, etc. That was the big fat telephone
cables on the poles, hundreds of individual copper pairs all going back
to the nearest CO.

Today due to cost and capacity issues, many areas, particularly those
with new residential developments are not wired back to a CO, and
instead connect to a nearby Remote Terminal (RT) which is essentially a
mini CO on a pad (you'll see a collection of several large tan cabinets
on a concrete pad) that has copper connections out to the adjacent
homes, and a fiber optic connection back to the nearest CO.

The RTs have backup batteries which are good for ~8 hours if they are
well maintained, and they have a power inlet connection (round
protrusion about 3" dia and 8" long angled downwards) for a generator.
There are no generators at the RT locations, one has to be towed in by
the Telco and connected in the event of an extended power outage. If it
is a widespread outage the Telco may not have enough generators to go
around and thus only RTs with VIPs connected will be prioritized.

Cell sites and MMDS towers (wireless Internet service) have a limited
number of sites and normally have permanently installed backup
generators so those sites will normally remain operational during a
power outage. Onsite fuel is usually good for a few days, after which
those sites will also fail unless they are refueled, and in all but the
most severe storms they usually do manage to get them refueled.

Seems obvious to me, but many, many people were caught with
their car tanks low on gas after Sandy. I was glad I had two
cars full so I was good for the 10 days but a lot of people
were stuck at home.

When all the electricity is out, the gas stations are out, too.
Fill 'er up if you know a storm is coming.

nancy

On 8/2/2013 10:16 AM, Nancy Young wrote:
> Seems obvious to me, but many, many people were caught with
> their car tanks low on gas after Sandy. I was glad I had two
> cars full so I was good for the 10 days but a lot of people
> were stuck at home.
>
> When all the electricity is out, the gas stations are out, too.
> Fill 'er up if you know a storm is coming.
>
> nancy

Excellent advice! Especially if you might have to evacuate.

Where I live it's all two lane roads for quite a ways (despite being Hwy
21, it's not what I'd call much of a "highway" out here in the sticks.)
Traffic could and would back up for miles (and hours) in the event of
an evacuation. Make sure your gas tank is filled. You probably won't
be able to fill it again any time soon.

Jill

On 8/2/2013 10:16 AM, Nancy Young wrote:
> Seems obvious to me, but many, many people were caught with
> their car tanks low on gas after Sandy. I was glad I had two
> cars full so I was good for the 10 days but a lot of people
> were stuck at home.
>
> When all the electricity is out, the gas stations are out, too.
> Fill 'er up if you know a storm is coming.
>
> nancy

Some states are trying to force gas stations to install generators so
they can keep operating. While it sounds good, it is expensive and puts
the individual stations at a competitive disadvantage unless they can
charge much more after a storm.

On 8/2/2013 11:13 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 8/2/2013 10:16 AM, Nancy Young wrote:
>> Seems obvious to me, but many, many people were caught with
>> their car tanks low on gas after Sandy. I was glad I had two
>> cars full so I was good for the 10 days but a lot of people
>> were stuck at home.
>>
>> When all the electricity is out, the gas stations are out, too.
>> Fill 'er up if you know a storm is coming.

> Some states are trying to force gas stations to install generators so
> they can keep operating. While it sounds good, it is expensive and puts
> the individual stations at a competitive disadvantage unless they can
> charge much more after a storm.

That's very interesting, I hadn't heard anything about that.
I wonder what kind of generator they would need to operate just
the pumps, meaning how big would it have to be. I wouldn't
oppose state aid to install these generators. The station owners
are already under a lot of financial pressure, I don't know if it
should all fall on them when it's all of us who depended on them.

Anyway, interesting idea.

nancy

On 8/2/2013 11:25 AM, Nancy Young wrote:
> On 8/2/2013 11:13 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

>> Some states are trying to force gas stations to install generators so
>> they can keep operating. While it sounds good, it is expensive and puts
>> the individual stations at a competitive disadvantage unless they can
>> charge much more after a storm.
>
> That's very interesting, I hadn't heard anything about that.
> I wonder what kind of generator they would need to operate just
> the pumps, meaning how big would it have to be.

It's all coming back to me now. Like a bad flashback. The gas
stations in my town did have power, for whatever reason my little
village was about the first place back up.

However, they had no gas to sell. The place where the gas comes
from, that area was also without electricity. They needed
generators first.

nancy

On 8/2/2013 12:08 PM, Nancy Young wrote:

> It's all coming back to me now. Like a bad flashback. The gas
> stations in my town did have power, for whatever reason my little
> village was about the first place back up.
>
> However, they had no gas to sell. The place where the gas comes
> from, that area was also without electricity. They needed
> generators first.

Part of the problem too is that roads need to be open for the tankers to
get to the gas stations. Our worst storm here had so many trees down
and traffic through the only roads open was backed up for hours.

--
CAPSLOCK–Preventing Login Since 1980.

Nancy Young wrote:
>
> On 8/2/2013 11:13 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> > On 8/2/2013 10:16 AM, Nancy Young wrote:
> >> Seems obvious to me, but many, many people were caught with
> >> their car tanks low on gas after Sandy. I was glad I had two
> >> cars full so I was good for the 10 days but a lot of people
> >> were stuck at home.
> >>
> >> When all the electricity is out, the gas stations are out, too.
> >> Fill 'er up if you know a storm is coming.
>
> > Some states are trying to force gas stations to install generators so
> > they can keep operating. While it sounds good, it is expensive and puts
> > the individual stations at a competitive disadvantage unless they can
> > charge much more after a storm.
>
> That's very interesting, I hadn't heard anything about that.
> I wonder what kind of generator they would need to operate just
> the pumps, meaning how big would it have to be. I wouldn't
> oppose state aid to install these generators. The station owners
> are already under a lot of financial pressure, I don't know if it
> should all fall on them when it's all of us who depended on them.
>
> Anyway, interesting idea.
>
> nancy

Figure $25k-$50k total cost depending on the size of the station. That's
a commercial grade generator, transfer switch, installation, permits,
etc. In some cases it could be more given physical space constraints.
It's not nearly as simple as installing a cheap consumer grade standby
generator at a residence.

On 8/2/2013 11:25 AM, Nancy Young wrote:

>
>> Some states are trying to force gas stations to install generators so
>> they can keep operating. While it sounds good, it is expensive and puts
>> the individual stations at a competitive disadvantage unless they can
>> charge much more after a storm.
>
> That's very interesting, I hadn't heard anything about that.
> I wonder what kind of generator they would need to operate just
> the pumps, meaning how big would it have to be. I wouldn't
> oppose state aid to install these generators. The station owners
> are already under a lot of financial pressure, I don't know if it
> should all fall on them when it's all of us who depended on them.
>
> Anyway, interesting idea.
>
> nancy
>

Started with the aftermath of Katrina. I've not followed all that close
but one proposal was stations on evacuation routes to have generators,
another was one of every four stations to assure some supply. .

On 8/2/2013 2:16 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
> Started with the aftermath of Katrina. I've not followed all that close
> but one proposal was stations on evacuation routes to have generators,
> another was one of every four stations to assure some supply.

Maybe there should be special filling stations open only along those
emergency routes that are operated and owned by the oil companies and
only required to be open during emergencies. That takes the burden of
the added expense off of the individual station and franchise owners who
aren't making as much money as the oil companies. They also should be
monitored so they don't gouge people who are just trying to flee from a
disaster. Now, how the oil companies would protect the employees
required to stay, I don't know.

--
CAPSLOCK–Preventing Login Since 1980.

On 8/3/2013 3:05 AM, Cheryl wrote:
> On 8/2/2013 2:16 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>
>> Started with the aftermath of Katrina. I've not followed all that close
>> but one proposal was stations on evacuation routes to have generators,
>> another was one of every four stations to assure some supply.
>
> Maybe there should be special filling stations open only along those
> emergency routes that are operated and owned by the oil companies and
> only required to be open during emergencies. That takes the burden of
> the added expense off of the individual station and franchise owners who
> aren't making as much money as the oil companies. They also should be
> monitored so they don't gouge people who are just trying to flee from a
> disaster. Now, how the oil companies would protect the employees
> required to stay, I don't know.
>
Good point. It wouldn't work in NJ because they don't allow
self-service gas pumps.

Jill

On Fri, 02 Aug 2013 11:25:56 -0400, Nancy Young
> wrote:

>On 8/2/2013 11:13 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> On 8/2/2013 10:16 AM, Nancy Young wrote:
>>> Seems obvious to me, but many, many people were caught with
>>> their car tanks low on gas after Sandy. I was glad I had two
>>> cars full so I was good for the 10 days but a lot of people
>>> were stuck at home.
>>>
>>> When all the electricity is out, the gas stations are out, too.
>>> Fill 'er up if you know a storm is coming.
>
>> Some states are trying to force gas stations to install generators so
>> they can keep operating. While it sounds good, it is expensive and puts
>> the individual stations at a competitive disadvantage unless they can
>> charge much more after a storm.
>
>That's very interesting, I hadn't heard anything about that.
>I wonder what kind of generator they would need to operate just
>the pumps, meaning how big would it have to be. I wouldn't
>oppose state aid to install these generators. The station owners
>are already under a lot of financial pressure, I don't know if it
>should all fall on them when it's all of us who depended on them.
>
>Anyway, interesting idea.

I doubt running a gas pump consumes more electric than your fridge...
and they'd more than make up the cost of a generator from remaining in
business and selling gas.

On 8/2/2013 5:56 PM, Brooklyn1 wrote:
> On Fri, 02 Aug 2013 11:25:56 -0400, Nancy Young
> > wrote:
>
>> On 8/2/2013 11:13 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>> On 8/2/2013 10:16 AM, Nancy Young wrote:
>>>> Seems obvious to me, but many, many people were caught with
>>>> their car tanks low on gas after Sandy. I was glad I had two
>>>> cars full so I was good for the 10 days but a lot of people
>>>> were stuck at home.
>>>>
>>>> When all the electricity is out, the gas stations are out, too.
>>>> Fill 'er up if you know a storm is coming.
>>
>>> Some states are trying to force gas stations to install generators so
>>> they can keep operating. While it sounds good, it is expensive and puts
>>> the individual stations at a competitive disadvantage unless they can
>>> charge much more after a storm.
>>
>> That's very interesting, I hadn't heard anything about that.
>> I wonder what kind of generator they would need to operate just
>> the pumps, meaning how big would it have to be. I wouldn't
>> oppose state aid to install these generators. The station owners
>> are already under a lot of financial pressure, I don't know if it
>> should all fall on them when it's all of us who depended on them.
>>
>> Anyway, interesting idea.
>
> I doubt running a gas pump consumes more electric than your fridge...
> and they'd more than make up the cost of a generator from remaining in
> business and selling gas.
>
But can the gas stations get refueled during hurricane conditions?
Doubtful.

Jill

Brooklyn1 wrote:
>
> On Fri, 02 Aug 2013 11:25:56 -0400, Nancy Young
> > wrote:
>
> >On 8/2/2013 11:13 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> >> On 8/2/2013 10:16 AM, Nancy Young wrote:
> >>> Seems obvious to me, but many, many people were caught with
> >>> their car tanks low on gas after Sandy. I was glad I had two
> >>> cars full so I was good for the 10 days but a lot of people
> >>> were stuck at home.
> >>>
> >>> When all the electricity is out, the gas stations are out, too.
> >>> Fill 'er up if you know a storm is coming.
> >
> >> Some states are trying to force gas stations to install generators so
> >> they can keep operating. While it sounds good, it is expensive and puts
> >> the individual stations at a competitive disadvantage unless they can
> >> charge much more after a storm.
> >
> >That's very interesting, I hadn't heard anything about that.
> >I wonder what kind of generator they would need to operate just
> >the pumps, meaning how big would it have to be. I wouldn't
> >oppose state aid to install these generators. The station owners
> >are already under a lot of financial pressure, I don't know if it
> >should all fall on them when it's all of us who depended on them.
> >
> >Anyway, interesting idea.
>
> I doubt running a gas pump consumes more electric than your fridge...
> and they'd more than make up the cost of a generator from remaining in
> business and selling gas.

Modern gas stations use common (to all the dispensers) submersible pumps
similar to well pumps in the tanks. You'll have three or more of these
pumps to run at at least 1HP each, plus the dispensers, controls,
lighting, etc.

Figure on at least a 20KVA generator, and for a commercial grade one,
transfer switch, installation, permits, etc. that's going to be
$35k-$50k per station, more for some space challenged stations.

Cheap residential standby generators and half-assed installation won't
fly in a flammable and combustible fuel dispensing facility.

On 8/2/2013 10:25 AM, Nancy Young wrote:

> That's very interesting, I hadn't heard anything about that.
> I wonder what kind of generator they would need to operate just
> the pumps, meaning how big would it have to be. I wouldn't
> oppose state aid to install these generators. The station owners
> are already under a lot of financial pressure, I don't know if it
> should all fall on them when it's all of us who depended on them.
>
> Anyway, interesting idea.
>
> nancy
>


The only states in the South that require gas stations to have
generators, are Florida and Louisiana. This may apply to new stations
only, or stations that are being remodeled.

Becca

On 02/08/2013 11:13 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
> Some states are trying to force gas stations to install generators so
> they can keep operating. While it sounds good, it is expensive and puts
> the individual stations at a competitive disadvantage unless they can
> charge much more after a storm.


Don't worry. They will use any excuse to bump up the price of gas. We
were on our to our vacation when Katrina was approaching and gas jumped
5 cents a litre in anticipation of a supply problem.... about 1000 miles
south of us and in another country. We were at camp for 5 days, no
electricity, no newspapers. When we left for home we were shocked to see
it had jumped another 30 cents per litre. The price dropped a lot more
slowly than it had gone up.

There was a major power outage here a few years ago when the grid
failed. Our power at home was only out for a few hours, but everywhere
else around it was out for about 4 days. That meant no gasoline, no
diesel, no propane. Even people who had propane BBQs for cooking would
have been out of luck if their tanks were empty because you need
electricity to pump propane.

In times of emergency there may be thousands or even hundreds of
thousands of vehicles evacuating an area and some of them are going to
need fuel.

On Fri, 02 Aug 2013 11:13:58 -0400, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:

>On 8/2/2013 10:16 AM, Nancy Young wrote:
>> Seems obvious to me, but many, many people were caught with
>> their car tanks low on gas after Sandy. I was glad I had two
>> cars full so I was good for the 10 days but a lot of people
>> were stuck at home.
>>
>> When all the electricity is out, the gas stations are out, too.
>> Fill 'er up if you know a storm is coming.
>>
>> nancy
>
>Some states are trying to force gas stations to install generators so
>they can keep operating. While it sounds good, it is expensive and puts
>the individual stations at a competitive disadvantage unless they can
>charge much more after a storm.

I doubt they'd suffer any loss, they'd be selling gas, better than
essentially being out of business.

On 8/2/2013 5:53 PM, Brooklyn1 wrote:
> On Fri, 02 Aug 2013 11:13:58 -0400, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
>
>> On 8/2/2013 10:16 AM, Nancy Young wrote:
>>> Seems obvious to me, but many, many people were caught with
>>> their car tanks low on gas after Sandy. I was glad I had two
>>> cars full so I was good for the 10 days but a lot of people
>>> were stuck at home.
>>>
>>> When all the electricity is out, the gas stations are out, too.
>>> Fill 'er up if you know a storm is coming.
>>>
>>> nancy
>>
>> Some states are trying to force gas stations to install generators so
>> they can keep operating. While it sounds good, it is expensive and puts
>> the individual stations at a competitive disadvantage unless they can
>> charge much more after a storm.
>
> I doubt they'd suffer any loss, they'd be selling gas, better than
> essentially being out of business.
>
Only as long as their gas supply lasted. In evacuation situations there
aren't going to be tanker trucks refilling the pumps. When they run
out, they're closed. I always keep at least 1/2 tank of gas in my car.
I get nervous if it gets below that.

Jill

On 02/08/2013 6:08 PM, jmcquown wrote:
arge much more after a storm.
>>
>> I doubt they'd suffer any loss, they'd be selling gas, better than
>> essentially being out of business.
>>
> Only as long as their gas supply lasted. In evacuation situations there
> aren't going to be tanker trucks refilling the pumps. When they run
> out, they're closed. I always keep at least 1/2 tank of gas in my car.
> I get nervous if it gets below that.

Power outages are usually localized. Unless the refineries or storage
facilities are in the affected areas the fuel can be trucked in.

On 8/2/2013 10:51 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
> On 02/08/2013 6:08 PM, jmcquown wrote:
> arge much more after a storm.
>>>
>>> I doubt they'd suffer any loss, they'd be selling gas, better than
>>> essentially being out of business.
>>>
>> Only as long as their gas supply lasted. In evacuation situations there
>> aren't going to be tanker trucks refilling the pumps. When they run
>> out, they're closed. I always keep at least 1/2 tank of gas in my car.
>> I get nervous if it gets below that.
>
> Power outages are usually localized. Unless the refineries or storage
> facilities are in the affected areas the fuel can be trucked in.
>
Not in the event of a mandatory evacuation. We are talking about
hurricanes, after all. The thread drifted to power outages in general
but the OP was talking about hurricane preparedness.

Jill

Brooklyn1 wrote:
>
> On Fri, 02 Aug 2013 11:13:58 -0400, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
>
> >On 8/2/2013 10:16 AM, Nancy Young wrote:
> >> Seems obvious to me, but many, many people were caught with
> >> their car tanks low on gas after Sandy. I was glad I had two
> >> cars full so I was good for the 10 days but a lot of people
> >> were stuck at home.
> >>
> >> When all the electricity is out, the gas stations are out, too.
> >> Fill 'er up if you know a storm is coming.
> >>
> >> nancy
> >
> >Some states are trying to force gas stations to install generators so
> >they can keep operating. While it sounds good, it is expensive and puts
> >the individual stations at a competitive disadvantage unless they can
> >charge much more after a storm.
>
> I doubt they'd suffer any loss, they'd be selling gas, better than
> essentially being out of business.

More importantly, while the gas is pumping, they would also be selling
out of everything in their convenience stores - ice, drinks, snacks, ww
fluid, oil, windshield scrapers, etc. which is far more profitable than
the gas.

Nancy Young wrote:
>
>Seems obvious to me, but many, many people were caught with
>their car tanks low on gas after Sandy. I was glad I had two
>cars full so I was good for the 10 days but a lot of people
>were stuck at home.
>
>When all the electricity is out, the gas stations are out, too.
>Fill 'er up if you know a storm is coming.

Ever since I've been driving I very rarely let my gas gauge go below
half before I fill up... and especially with the price of gas
nowadays, I find it disturbing having to pay for like 20 gallons all
in one fell swoop... when I began driving gas cost like 10¢/gallon;
pulled up to a pump, the attendant hustled over and asked "What'll it
be sir?", handed the attendant a buck and said fill her up, high test,
and I got back change. And the attendant cleaned my windshield,
checked my fluids, and the air in my tires, and said "Thank you sir".
That said I wouldn't want a gasolene generator even if someone gave it
to me for free. I have a 500 gallon tank of propane here (I heat my
house with propane) so I would have a propane generator, but if I
didn't have propane I'd choose diesel. I don't want to store large
amounts of gasolene, it's too dangerous, and stored gasolene goes bad
even with preservatives added.

On 8/2/2013 5:29 PM, Brooklyn1 wrote:

> I don't want to store large
> amounts of gasolene, it's too dangerous, and stored gasolene goes bad
> even with preservatives added.

No need to store it for long. Stock up if a storm is approaching and if
you luckily don't lose power and don't need to use it, put it in your car.

--
CAPSLOCK–Preventing Login Since 1980.

On Friday, August 2, 2013 10:16:16 AM UTC-4, Nancy Young wrote:
> Seems obvious to me, but many, many people were caught with
>
> their car tanks low on gas after Sandy. I was glad I had two
>
> cars full so I was good for the 10 days but a lot of people
>
> were stuck at home.
>
>
>
> When all the electricity is out, the gas stations are out, too.
>
> Fill 'er up if you know a storm is coming.
>
>
>
> nancy

That's one of my summer 'rules of dumb' - I never let it go below a half tank.

On 8/2/2013 10:16 AM, Nancy Young wrote:

> Seems obvious to me, but many, many people were caught with
> their car tanks low on gas after Sandy. I was glad I had two
> cars full so I was good for the 10 days but a lot of people
> were stuck at home.
>
> When all the electricity is out, the gas stations are out, too.
> Fill 'er up if you know a storm is coming.
>
> nancy

After we had that east coast storm they called a derecho a couple of
years ago and I was caught off guard without gas in my vehicle, that's
now on my to-do list when a storm is forecast. But to be honest, that
derecho came out of nowhere and a storm of that strength wasn't forecast.

--
CAPSLOCK–Preventing Login Since 1980.