i was just listening to a radio show, Howard Clark, maybe... he made the
comment that of the three most popular places to visit, london, Paris, and
Rome, that pickpocketting was most often occuring in Rome. I have no reason
to doubt he was quoting a reliable source, but it struck me as odd So if you
know could you confirm or deny please,

Lee

"Storrmmee" > ha scritto nel messaggio

>i was just listening to a radio show, Howard Clark, maybe... he made the
>comment that of the three most popular places to visit, london, Paris, and
>Rome, that pickpocketting was most often occuring in Rome. I have no
>reason to doubt he was quoting a reliable source, but it struck me as odd
>So if you know could you confirm or deny please,

You can't count on the record keeping that results on these reports. Most
of the pickpocketing is done by mobile bands of crooks who go where the
tourists are. That can be anywhere.

It is sometimes done that police don't record crimes to keep their city
"clean." My friend was badly hurt in Barcelona but was not xrayed at the
hospital and had a piece of tape to hold together the head wound she got.
Why? Because if they gave her an xray or sewed her up they had to report it
as a crime. When she came back here she was found to have a concussion and
a hairline fracture of the skull. She could have died.

There is now a website dedicated to reporting crimes against travelers in
Barcelona, because it's pretty bad and the cops are covering up. So which
of the biggest cities has the most petty crime? Who knows-

interesting. I should have said he was discussing, these three in
comparision as they are the three most popular destinations for those
travelling to the us... I guess i figured paris would be worse, and for no
particular reason, maybe just personal perceptions...

I hope your friend is ok now.

Lee
"Giusi" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Storrmmee" > ha scritto nel messaggio
>
>>i was just listening to a radio show, Howard Clark, maybe... he made the
>>comment that of the three most popular places to visit, london, Paris, and
>>Rome, that pickpocketting was most often occuring in Rome. I have no
>>reason to doubt he was quoting a reliable source, but it struck me as odd
>>So if you know could you confirm or deny please,
>
> You can't count on the record keeping that results on these reports. Most
> of the pickpocketing is done by mobile bands of crooks who go where the
> tourists are. That can be anywhere.
>
> It is sometimes done that police don't record crimes to keep their city
> "clean." My friend was badly hurt in Barcelona but was not xrayed at the
> hospital and had a piece of tape to hold together the head wound she got.
> Why? Because if they gave her an xray or sewed her up they had to report
> it as a crime. When she came back here she was found to have a concussion
> and a hairline fracture of the skull. She could have died.
>
> There is now a website dedicated to reporting crimes against travelers in
> Barcelona, because it's pretty bad and the cops are covering up. So which
> of the biggest cities has the most petty crime? Who knows-
>
>

On May 31, 11:21*pm, "Storrmmee" > wrote:
> i was just listening to a radio show, Howard Clark, maybe... he made the
> comment that of the three most popular places to visit, london, Paris, and
> Rome, that pickpocketting was most often occuring in Rome. *I have no reason
> to doubt he was quoting a reliable source, but it struck me as odd So if you
> know could you confirm or deny please,

Of Euro cities I've been to, from accounts of people we met,
pickpocketing was the worst in Madrid. Rome's gypsies were mostly
extremely bad musicians trying to demand payment for torturing our
ears.

lol,

Lee
"spamtrap1888" > wrote in message
...
On May 31, 11:21 pm, "Storrmmee" > wrote:
> i was just listening to a radio show, Howard Clark, maybe... he made the
> comment that of the three most popular places to visit, london, Paris, and
> Rome, that pickpocketting was most often occuring in Rome. I have no
> reason
> to doubt he was quoting a reliable source, but it struck me as odd So if
> you
> know could you confirm or deny please,

Of Euro cities I've been to, from accounts of people we met,
pickpocketing was the worst in Madrid. Rome's gypsies were mostly
extremely bad musicians trying to demand payment for torturing our
ears.

In article >, says...
>
> "Storrmmee" > ha scritto nel messaggio
>
> >i was just listening to a radio show, Howard Clark, maybe... he made the
> >comment that of the three most popular places to visit, london, Paris, and
> >Rome, that pickpocketting was most often occuring in Rome. I have no
> >reason to doubt he was quoting a reliable source, but it struck me as odd
> >So if you know could you confirm or deny please,
>
> You can't count on the record keeping that results on these reports. Most
> of the pickpocketing is done by mobile bands of crooks who go where the
> tourists are. That can be anywhere.
>
> It is sometimes done that police don't record crimes to keep their city
> "clean." My friend was badly hurt in Barcelona but was not xrayed at the
> hospital and had a piece of tape to hold together the head wound she got.
> Why? Because if they gave her an xray or sewed her up they had to report it
> as a crime. When she came back here she was found to have a concussion and
> a hairline fracture of the skull. She could have died.

One of the downsides of socialized medicine? Treatment denied in order
to serve a political purpose?

> There is now a website dedicated to reporting crimes against travelers in
> Barcelona, because it's pretty bad and the cops are covering up. So which
> of the biggest cities has the most petty crime? Who knows-

"Storrmmee" > wrote in message
...
> i was just listening to a radio show, Howard Clark, maybe... he made the
> comment that of the three most popular places to visit, london, Paris, and
> Rome, that pickpocketting was most often occuring in Rome. I have no
> reason to doubt he was quoting a reliable source, but it struck me as odd
> So if you know could you confirm or deny please,
>
> Lee
>

I've heard similar stories. Fact is, every large tourist city in every
country in the world has pickpockets. Take precautions when you travel.
Never put all your cash and credit cards in one spot on you either.

i think that is what bothered me about this, i just don't see how one could
be so sure of this sort of thing. As an interesting aside, he advised the
caller to make sure he had an ATM he could use for daily cash as exchange
rates are so high, and the callers major cc charged three percent for
exchange, and he was going to soon, or maybe too soon to find a card with no
exchange charges...

Lee
"Ed Pawlowski" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Storrmmee" > wrote in message
> ...
>> i was just listening to a radio show, Howard Clark, maybe... he made the
>> comment that of the three most popular places to visit, london, Paris,
>> and Rome, that pickpocketting was most often occuring in Rome. I have no
>> reason to doubt he was quoting a reliable source, but it struck me as odd
>> So if you know could you confirm or deny please,
>>
>> Lee
>>
>
> I've heard similar stories. Fact is, every large tourist city in every
> country in the world has pickpockets. Take precautions when you travel.
> Never put all your cash and credit cards in one spot on you either.

"J. Clarke" > ha scritto nel messaggio

> One of the downsides of socialized medicine? Treatment denied in order
> to serve a political purpose?

No, one of the upsides is that her treatment there and after she returned
cost nothing. Anyone, tourist, illegal alien, resident, flyover reject gets
emergency treatment at no cost. If it isn't a real emergency, they charge
you about euro 25.

It wouldn't matter if she'd been taken to a private clinic, the deal is the
same.

In article >, says...
>
> "J. Clarke" > ha scritto nel messaggio
>
> > One of the downsides of socialized medicine? Treatment denied in order
> > to serve a political purpose?
>
> No, one of the upsides is that her treatment there and after she returned
> cost nothing.

So which would you rather? Pay a thousand bucks and have them find your
skull fracture or get free treatment and not find it?

> Anyone, tourist, illegal alien, resident, flyover reject gets
> emergency treatment at no cost. If it isn't a real emergency, they charge
> you about euro 25.

But they didn't do a proper diagnosis and didn't find the injury.

> It wouldn't matter if she'd been taken to a private clinic, the deal is the
> same.

Would the private clinic have failed to do proper diagnosis for
political reasons?

"J. Clarke" > ha scritto nel messaggio

> Would the private clinic have failed to do proper diagnosis for
> political reasons?

So it would seem. Investigation appears to show that not treating and not
reporting is rife in Barcelona. S looked good enough to be allowed on a
plane and that was the deciding factor.

On Jun 1, 4:22*am, spamtrap1888 > wrote:
> On May 31, 11:21*pm, "Storrmmee" > wrote:
>
> > i was just listening to a radio show, Howard Clark, maybe... he made the
> > comment that of the three most popular places to visit, london, Paris, and
> > Rome, that pickpocketting was most often occuring in Rome. *I have no reason
> > to doubt he was quoting a reliable source, but it struck me as odd So if you
> > know could you confirm or deny please,
>
> Of Euro cities I've been to, from accounts of people we met,
> pickpocketing was the worst in Madrid. Rome's gypsies were mostly
> extremely bad musicians trying to demand payment for torturing our
> ears.

Venice was once a top spot. I wore a moneybelt.

In article >, says...
>
> "J. Clarke" > ha scritto nel messaggio
>
> > Would the private clinic have failed to do proper diagnosis for
> > political reasons?
>
> So it would seem. Investigation appears to show that not treating and not
> reporting is rife in Barcelona. S looked good enough to be allowed on a
> plane and that was the deciding factor.

So in my book it's a fail for socialized medicine.

My concern with it has always been that it will be manipulated for
poltical purposes and now we have an example where it is being
manipulated in that fashion--not one that I would have guessed would
occur but an example nonetheless.

On Jun 1, 8:41*am, Kalmia > wrote:
> On Jun 1, 4:22*am, spamtrap1888 > wrote:
>
> > On May 31, 11:21*pm, "Storrmmee" > wrote:
>
> > > i was just listening to a radio show, Howard Clark, maybe... he made the
> > > comment that of the three most popular places to visit, london, Paris, and
> > > Rome, that pickpocketting was most often occuring in Rome. *I have no reason
> > > to doubt he was quoting a reliable source, but it struck me as odd So if you
> > > know could you confirm or deny please,
>
> > Of Euro cities I've been to, from accounts of people we met,
> > pickpocketing was the worst in Madrid. Rome's gypsies were mostly
> > extremely bad musicians trying to demand payment for torturing our
> > ears.
>
> Venice was once a top spot. *I wore a moneybelt.

==
Same here for Mexican travel. If you want to avoid pickpockets the
best bet is to "stay home" as there are crooks everywhere.
==

On 01/06/2011 4:25 AM, Storrmmee wrote:


>
> Of Euro cities I've been to, from accounts of people we met,
> pickpocketing was the worst in Madrid. Rome's gypsies were mostly
> extremely bad musicians trying to demand payment for torturing our
> ears.


My parents did several bus tours in Europe. The only crime that came
close to them was in Barcelona, where one of the people on their tour
was robbed right in front of their hotel.

I saw an interesting thing in Paris one day. A woman was on the ground
having seizures while the children stood by trying to look scared and
the father asked for help. Having been trained in first aid, I was
about to offer help, but then I realized they were gypsies. No one else
was naive enough to help either. Mother got up, dusted herself off and
the walked away.


My son was on a school trip to Europe and while on a bus in Rome an old
Gypsy woman bumped into him. He shoved her away and told her to get
lost. The chaperone gave my son hell for pushing the old lady. While the
chaperone was admonishing him for his actions, the old lady stole the
chaperone's wallet.

On 01/06/2011 10:41 AM, Kalmia wrote:
ow could you confirm or deny please,
>>
>> Of Euro cities I've been to, from accounts of people we met,
>> pickpocketing was the worst in Madrid. Rome's gypsies were mostly
>> extremely bad musicians trying to demand payment for torturing our
>> ears.
>
> Venice was once a top spot. I wore a moneybelt.


Any spot with a lot of tourists attracts pickpockets. Tourists tend to
carry lots of money, are usually distracted by the sights and the
crowds, and they don't want to come back to be a witness at a trial.

On 01/06/2011 11:39 AM, Roy wrote:

> Same here for Mexican travel. If you want to avoid pickpockets the
> best bet is to "stay home" as there are crooks everywhere.


Mexico is just plain dangerous. There are too many tourists getting
murdered.

On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 08:31:27 +0200, "Giusi" > wrote:

> There is now a website dedicated to reporting crimes against travelers in
> Barcelona, because it's pretty bad and the cops are covering up.

Would you please post that site? I have friends who are planning on
visiting Barcelona soon.

--

Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.

On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 01:21:58 -0500, "Storrmmee"
> wrote:

> i was just listening to a radio show, Howard Clark, maybe... he made the
> comment that of the three most popular places to visit, london, Paris, and
> Rome, that pickpocketting was most often occuring in Rome. I have no reason
> to doubt he was quoting a reliable source, but it struck me as odd So if you
> know could you confirm or deny please,
>
I've been to all three and they are like any other big city - you have
to be aware of your surroundings. Pickpockets like crowded conditions
where someone bumping into you is not unexpected, like a subway car
during rush hour or they will blend into a large group of strangers on
a guided tour.

--

Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.

On Jun 1, 9:36*am, sf > wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 08:31:27 +0200, "Giusi" > wrote:
> > There is now a website dedicated to reporting crimes against travelers in
> > Barcelona, because it's pretty bad and the cops are covering up. *
>
> Would you please post that site? *I have friends who are planning on
> visiting Barcelona soon.
>

We spent three days in Barcelona, hitting all the touristical spots,
taking the scenic bus, and the only shady things I saw were guys
playing the old shell game in the old town, using cardboard boxes for
a stand (easily folded and taken away, also easily discarded).

My wife and I have the advantage of not looking American, however.
Europeans uniformly address her in French, and me in German. We travel
by ourselves, or with her sister and her husband. (He is a real
squarehead, but can joke about it: "Mein Kopf, er hat vier ecke...")

"sf" > ha scritto nel messaggio
"Giusi" > wrote:
>
>> There is now a website dedicated to reporting crimes against travelers in
>> Barcelona, because it's pretty bad and the cops are covering up.
>
> Would you please post that site? I have friends who are planning on
> visiting Barcelona soon.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=&q=c...IT321&ie=UTF-8

Take your pick. There are now a bunch of them!

"Giusi" > ha scritto nel messaggio
> "sf" > ha scritto nel messaggio
> "Giusi" > wrote:
>>
>> Would you please post that site? I have friends who are planning on
>> visiting Barcelona soon.

We were all shocked at what happened, because we are used to pickpocket
gangs and gypsies at train stations and near the Vatican, but this gal is 6
feet tall and was walking in the company of two other really big gals after
dinner on the Ramblas and because her shoulder purse was well attached to
her, this big Arab picked her up like a football tackler and dumped her on
her head. She had everything in that purse and knows she was a fool.

Violence like that is so rare here. Unless you wander into the wrong
neighborhood, it's rare most places, but las Ramblas is the right
neighborhood.

On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 11:01:03 -0400, "J. Clarke" >
wrote:

> In article >, says...
> >
> > "J. Clarke" > ha scritto nel messaggio
> >
> > > Would the private clinic have failed to do proper diagnosis for
> > > political reasons?
> >
> > So it would seem. Investigation appears to show that not treating and not
> > reporting is rife in Barcelona. S looked good enough to be allowed on a
> > plane and that was the deciding factor.
>
> So in my book it's a fail for socialized medicine.

You book is written by ignorant, conservative, backwoods, republicans
with no ability to reason or understand how much they are being
screwed by fellow wealthy republicans who want every penny for
themselves. It says zero about socialized medicine and everything
about covering up crime so they don't scare off the tourists. I
wonder when Mexico will start using that tactic too.
>
> My concern with it has always been that it will be manipulated for
> poltical purposes and now we have an example where it is being
> manipulated in that fashion--not one that I would have guessed would
> occur but an example nonetheless.
>
Yes, statistics are being manipulated but not for the reasons you
claim.

--

Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.

On Wed, 01 Jun 2011 12:04:23 -0400, Dave Smith
> wrote:

> My son was on a school trip to Europe and while on a bus in Rome an old
> Gypsy woman bumped into him. He shoved her away and told her to get
> lost. The chaperone gave my son hell for pushing the old lady. While the
> chaperone was admonishing him for his actions, the old lady stole the
> chaperone's wallet.

<laughing> That's how it works, hope he learned his lesson.

--

Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.

On Wed, 01 Jun 2011 12:07:18 -0400, Dave Smith
> wrote:

> On 01/06/2011 11:39 AM, Roy wrote:
>
> > Same here for Mexican travel. If you want to avoid pickpockets the
> > best bet is to "stay home" as there are crooks everywhere.
>
>
> Mexico is just plain dangerous. There are too many tourists getting
> murdered.

You're right. Mexico is a good place to avoid and places like Tijuana
are "deserted" these days.

--

Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.

On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 19:08:54 +0200, "Giusi" > wrote:

>
> "Giusi" > ha scritto nel messaggio
> > "sf" > ha scritto nel messaggio
> > "Giusi" > wrote:
> >>
> >> Would you please post that site? I have friends who are planning on
> >> visiting Barcelona soon.
>
> We were all shocked at what happened, because we are used to pickpocket
> gangs and gypsies at train stations and near the Vatican, but this gal is 6
> feet tall and was walking in the company of two other really big gals after
> dinner on the Ramblas and because her shoulder purse was well attached to
> her, this big Arab picked her up like a football tackler and dumped her on
> her head. She had everything in that purse and knows she was a fool.
>
> Violence like that is so rare here. Unless you wander into the wrong
> neighborhood, it's rare most places, but las Ramblas is the right
> neighborhood.
>
I know. Still can't forget the German tourist who was killed here a
few months ago. Just some random couple on vacation who got caught in
the crossfire of a gang war that had been taken to the Union Square
theater district area.

--

Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.

On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 18:58:13 +0200, "Giusi" > wrote:

>
> "sf" > ha scritto nel messaggio
> "Giusi" > wrote:
> >
> >> There is now a website dedicated to reporting crimes against travelers in
> >> Barcelona, because it's pretty bad and the cops are covering up.
> >
> > Would you please post that site? I have friends who are planning on
> > visiting Barcelona soon.
>
> http://www.google.com/search?hl=&q=c...IT321&ie=UTF-8
>
> Take your pick. There are now a bunch of them!
>
I looked at Fodor's and Trip Advisor. The posts are old, but
respondents say it's just like any other big city and not to cancel
any plans.

--

Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.

"Storrmmee" > wrote in message
...
>i think that is what bothered me about this, i just don't see how one could
>be so sure of this sort of thing. As an interesting aside, he advised the
>caller to make sure he had an ATM he could use for daily cash as exchange
>rates are so high, and the callers major cc charged three percent for
>exchange, and he was going to soon, or maybe too soon to find a card with
>no exchange charges...
>
>

The exchange is a profit center for CC companies. My bank charges 1% for an
ATM transaction so I try to use cash or debit card whenever possible. In
some countries, you can negotiate better prices for cash also. I've saved
up to 30% by a little haggling with cash. Many people thing soccer is the
biggest sport in Europe. It is really tax evasion for many.

"Ed Pawlowski" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Storrmmee" > wrote in message
> ...
>>i think that is what bothered me about this, i just don't see how one
>>could be so sure of this sort of thing. As an interesting aside, he
>>advised the caller to make sure he had an ATM he could use for daily cash
>>as exchange rates are so high, and the callers major cc charged three
>>percent for exchange, and he was going to soon, or maybe too soon to find
>>a card with no exchange charges...
>>
>>
>
> The exchange is a profit center for CC companies. My bank charges 1% for
> an ATM transaction

My bank (Canadian) has arrangements with banks in other countires so that
one can use their ATMs without charge.
Graham

"J. Clarke" > wrote in message
in.local...
> In article >, says...
>>
>> "J. Clarke" > ha scritto nel messaggio
>>
>> > Would the private clinic have failed to do proper diagnosis for
>> > political reasons?
>>
>> So it would seem. Investigation appears to show that not treating and
>> not
>> reporting is rife in Barcelona. S looked good enough to be allowed on a
>> plane and that was the deciding factor.
>
> So in my book it's a fail for socialized medicine.
>
> My concern with it has always been that it will be manipulated for
> poltical purposes and now we have an example where it is being
> manipulated in that fashion--not one that I would have guessed would
> occur but an example nonetheless.

No example of political manipulation relating to crime statistics has been
given in this thread.

Hospitals, private clinics and/or doctors do not complile crime statistics.
Police compile those. At least they do in civilised societies. YMMV.

In article >, ask@itshall
says...
>
> "J. Clarke" > wrote in message
> in.local...
> > In article >, says...
> >>
> >> "J. Clarke" > ha scritto nel messaggio
> >>
> >> > Would the private clinic have failed to do proper diagnosis for
> >> > political reasons?
> >>
> >> So it would seem. Investigation appears to show that not treating and
> >> not
> >> reporting is rife in Barcelona. S looked good enough to be allowed on a
> >> plane and that was the deciding factor.
> >
> > So in my book it's a fail for socialized medicine.
> >
> > My concern with it has always been that it will be manipulated for
> > poltical purposes and now we have an example where it is being
> > manipulated in that fashion--not one that I would have guessed would
> > occur but an example nonetheless.
>
> No example of political manipulation relating to crime statistics has been
> given in this thread.
>
> Hospitals, private clinics and/or doctors do not complile crime statistics.
> Police compile those. At least they do in civilised societies. YMMV.

And we have another candidate for remedial reading.

On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 19:02:40 -0400, "J. Clarke" >
wrote:

> In article >,
> says...
> >
> > On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 17:14:31 -0400, "J. Clarke" >
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Except that a hospital not controlled by the government has little
> > > incentive to want to reduce such a reputation.
> > >
> > You don't make any sense. The police are reducing the number of
> > reported crimes, not the hospitals.
>
> The police are not the ones who declined to take an x-ray.

The police wouldn't let her go to the hospital so an xray was out of
the question.

--

Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.

"J. Clarke" > ha scritto nel messaggio

> Except that a hospital not controlled by the government has little
> incentive to want to reduce such a reputation.

Hospitals are under local control. They are manned by locals. Locals want
the tax money and profits from tourism, so it doesn't take much in a case
where it's dramatic to set up such a scenario. It has NOTHING to do with
the medical system, it has everything to do with an effort to cover up crime
by not reporting it.

If you never report pick pockets, you have a very low incidence of pick
pocketing. If you don't even report some violent crime, then you are
practically crime free!

On Thu, 2 Jun 2011 12:49:15 +0100, Janet > wrote:

> Talk about remedial reading!!!!

I didn't have the OP to check - that's how I remembered it.

> That is not what was posted here. She
> did go to hospital; the hospital did not x-ray her.

Okay, I'll shut up after I say - blame that on poor medical training
and procedure, not the concept of socialized medicine.

> I would be interested to know exactly who informed the patient that she
> was refused an xray in order to avoid a police report.

Me too, but I'm killing the thread so I won't find out.

In any case, I looked at the first two of those websites (Fodor's and
TripAdvisor) and the comments basically said not to let crime in the
big city stop you from visiting Barcelona.

--

Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.

On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 11:01:03 -0400, J. Clarke wrote:

> In article >, says...
>>
>> "J. Clarke" > ha scritto nel messaggio
>>
>>> Would the private clinic have failed to do proper diagnosis for
>>> political reasons?
>>
>> So it would seem. Investigation appears to show that not treating and not
>> reporting is rife in Barcelona. S looked good enough to be allowed on a
>> plane and that was the deciding factor.
>
> So in my book it's a fail for socialized medicine.
>
> My concern with it has always been that it will be manipulated for
> poltical purposes and now we have an example where it is being
> manipulated in that fashion--not one that I would have guessed would
> occur but an example nonetheless.

this is good news for john mccain!

blake

In article >,
says...
>
> On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 19:02:40 -0400, "J. Clarke" >
> wrote:
>
> > In article >,
> > says...
> > >
> > > On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 17:14:31 -0400, "J. Clarke" >
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Except that a hospital not controlled by the government has little
> > > > incentive to want to reduce such a reputation.
> > > >
> > > You don't make any sense. The police are reducing the number of
> > > reported crimes, not the hospitals.
> >
> > The police are not the ones who declined to take an x-ray.
>
> The police wouldn't let her go to the hospital so an xray was out of
> the question.

<facepalm>

<https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!
topic/rec.food.cooking/Mgvuy4TOgKw>

Start at the beginning. Read Giusi's posts. Then explain how you get
"the police wouldn't let her go to the hospital" out of those posts.