Katra wrote:

> IMHO 18% is rather high anyway.
> I thought the average was 15% for good service,

That's a little low, anymore, but whatever is okay by you. Well,
lower than 15 is not okay for normal service, but you get what I
mean.

Besides, the difference between 15 and 18 is usually not worth
quibbling about, if you do the math.

What's interesting to me is that there is an assumption that if there
is a gratuity already added in, the waitstaff will not perform as
professionals and do their job. Whenever I've been in that situation,
they run around like crazy trying to make sure everyone has their
beverage/dinner/whatever. Just because they wait for a living does
not make them slackers. More often I've noticed my co-diners are
more annoying than anything.

nancy

One time on Usenet, said:

<snip>

> What's interesting to me is that there is an assumption that if there
> is a gratuity already added in, the waitstaff will not perform as
> professionals and do their job. Whenever I've been in that situation,
> they run around like crazy trying to make sure everyone has their
> beverage/dinner/whatever.

I don't think I've ever been in such a large party that the tip was
automatic, although I've seen in on many a menu over the years.

> Just because they wait for a living does not make them slackers.

Quite true -- a professional waitperson wants you to come back,
it's job security.

> More often I've noticed my co-diners are more annoying than
> anything.

Arg, too true! Although I did have an especially annoying waitress
once -- she ate half of our appetizer! She also happened to be my
mother-in-law... <just teasing>


--
J.J. in WA ~ mom, vid gamer, novice cook ~
"I rule you!" - Travis of the Cosmos, ATHF
(COLD to HOT for e-mail)

"Nancy Young" > wrote in message
...
> Katra wrote:
>
> > IMHO 18% is rather high anyway.
> > I thought the average was 15% for good service,
>
> That's a little low, anymore, but whatever is okay by you. Well,
> lower than 15 is not okay for normal service, but you get what I
> mean.
>
> Besides, the difference between 15 and 18 is usually not worth
> quibbling about, if you do the math.
>
> What's interesting to me is that there is an assumption that if there
> is a gratuity already added in, the waitstaff will not perform as
> professionals and do their job. Whenever I've been in that situation,
> they run around like crazy trying to make sure everyone has their
> beverage/dinner/whatever. Just because they wait for a living does
> not make them slackers. More often I've noticed my co-diners are
> more annoying than anything.
>
> nancy

Of course they run around like maniacs with a large party, it's a large
party! And what I've discovered (and also have done) is if the waitstaff
does an excellent job, despite the fact that the tip is included, many
people give a little extra gratuity. It's so nice when that happens!
(Which is why I return the favor.)

kili

"kilikini" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Nancy Young" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Katra wrote:
> >
> > > IMHO 18% is rather high anyway.
> > > I thought the average was 15% for good service,
> >
> > That's a little low, anymore, but whatever is okay by you. Well,
> > lower than 15 is not okay for normal service, but you get what I
> > mean.
> >
> > Besides, the difference between 15 and 18 is usually not worth
> > quibbling about, if you do the math.
> >
> > What's interesting to me is that there is an assumption that if there
> > is a gratuity already added in, the waitstaff will not perform as
> > professionals and do their job. Whenever I've been in that situation,
> > they run around like crazy trying to make sure everyone has their
> > beverage/dinner/whatever. Just because they wait for a living does
> > not make them slackers. More often I've noticed my co-diners are
> > more annoying than anything.
> >
> > nancy
>
> Of course they run around like maniacs with a large party, it's a large
> party! And what I've discovered (and also have done) is if the waitstaff
> does an excellent job, despite the fact that the tip is included, many
> people give a little extra gratuity. It's so nice when that happens!
> (Which is why I return the favor.)
>
> kili
>
>

I would never tip extra in this situation. By imposing a fixed "tip" the
restaurant is in effect telling me that they think I am a cheap ******* who
won't tip decently. If they think 18% (or whatever) is fine who am I to
dispute that?

--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

Peter Aitken wrote:

> I would never tip extra in this situation. By imposing a fixed "tip" the
> restaurant is in effect telling me that they think I am a cheap ******* who
> won't tip decently. If they think 18% (or whatever) is fine who am I to
> dispute that?

I think you'd be taking it too personally. We're talking about large
groups. The dynamics of getting a proper tip (and! the tax!) out of
a bunch of people who maybe work together but maybe don't have the
same sensibilities about how to tip/whatever, I've seen it all!

There's always the person who wants to pay to the penny for what they
ordered. Then who had a drink and who just had water. A nightmare.
Our secretary used to handle that well, she'd take care of everything.

Now, if it's just you and your wife, or some friends, and they
included the tip, that would seriously annoy me. But when you call
ahead, it's just better for everyone involved that there's no question
about the tip.

Funny, reminded my of my fil's 80th. We surprised him with a bd
dinner. They didn't specify the tip even though we had maybe 12
people.

Well, this was the first and only time I met one of my sil's husband.
What an ass. Everything was free, the flight in, the hotel, and I
was paying for dinner (not that anyone knew that), but he sure
wouldn't, being broke. He starts snapping his fingers, ordering
around the staff, then he ordered appetizers for his side of the
table. Hello, I would happen to like an appetizer. So the waitress
had to make two trips.

I was fuming, but you get the general idea how things went. Anyway,
we brought our own cake and the staff served it up for us. All was
well. Might be the only 100% tip I ever gave.

My point is, it's a mixed bag with a large group. Management is
right to protect their staff in these situations, I really think so.

nancy

Peter Aitken wrote:

> I would never tip extra in this situation. By imposing a fixed "tip" the
> restaurant is in effect telling me that they think I am a cheap ******* who
> won't tip decently. If they think 18% (or whatever) is fine who am I to
> dispute that?

I think you'd be taking it too personally. We're talking about large
groups. The dynamics of getting a proper tip (and! the tax!) out of
a bunch of people who maybe work together but maybe don't have the
same sensibilities about how to tip/whatever, I've seen it all!

There's always the person who wants to pay to the penny for what they
ordered. Then who had a drink and who just had water. A nightmare.
Our secretary used to handle that well, she'd take care of everything.

Now, if it's just you and your wife, or some friends, and they
included the tip, that would seriously annoy me. But when you call
ahead, it's just better for everyone involved that there's no question
about the tip.

Funny, reminded my of my fil's 80th. We surprised him with a bd
dinner. They didn't specify the tip even though we had maybe 12
people.

Well, this was the first and only time I met one of my sil's husband.
What an ass. Everything was free, the flight in, the hotel, and I
was paying for dinner (not that anyone knew that), but he sure
wouldn't, being broke. He starts snapping his fingers, ordering
around the staff, then he ordered appetizers for his side of the
table. Hello, I would happen to like an appetizer. So the waitress
had to make two trips.

I was fuming, but you get the general idea how things went. Anyway,
we brought our own cake and the staff served it up for us. All was
well. Might be the only 100% tip I ever gave.

My point is, it's a mixed bag with a large group. Management is
right to protect their staff in these situations, I really think so.

nancy

"kilikini" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Nancy Young" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Katra wrote:
> >
> > > IMHO 18% is rather high anyway.
> > > I thought the average was 15% for good service,
> >
> > That's a little low, anymore, but whatever is okay by you. Well,
> > lower than 15 is not okay for normal service, but you get what I
> > mean.
> >
> > Besides, the difference between 15 and 18 is usually not worth
> > quibbling about, if you do the math.
> >
> > What's interesting to me is that there is an assumption that if there
> > is a gratuity already added in, the waitstaff will not perform as
> > professionals and do their job. Whenever I've been in that situation,
> > they run around like crazy trying to make sure everyone has their
> > beverage/dinner/whatever. Just because they wait for a living does
> > not make them slackers. More often I've noticed my co-diners are
> > more annoying than anything.
> >
> > nancy
>
> Of course they run around like maniacs with a large party, it's a large
> party! And what I've discovered (and also have done) is if the waitstaff
> does an excellent job, despite the fact that the tip is included, many
> people give a little extra gratuity. It's so nice when that happens!
> (Which is why I return the favor.)
>
> kili
>
>

I would never tip extra in this situation. By imposing a fixed "tip" the
restaurant is in effect telling me that they think I am a cheap ******* who
won't tip decently. If they think 18% (or whatever) is fine who am I to
dispute that?

--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

Nancy Young wrote:

>>IMHO 18% is rather high anyway.
>>I thought the average was 15% for good service,
>
>
> That's a little low, anymore, but whatever is okay by you. Well,
> lower than 15 is not okay for normal service, but you get what I
> mean.

Yes, a bit low to me also.
I want to extend this ranting a bit to include the
tips paid to delivery people also. Where I work
we all order food from a limited selection of
places nightly. They're hardly haute cuisine
joints admittedly, but I can't believe how some
folks abuse this service. They order, and when the
delivery person comes (and always with separate
checks prepared) wayyyy too many of these people
keep them waiting ("I'll be right there, I have to
go get my money from my locker") and worse yet,
then barely tip anything for their efforts. They
knew the food was ordered, so they had time to get
their money. I'm embarrassed when the delivery
person is held up almost 10 minutes or so after
everyone else has paid for their order and then
these folks don't compensate in any fashion or
even apologize! And some are just plain cheap
tippers even if they're ready with their money.
Goomba

>> I thought the average was 15% for good service,
>
>That's a little low, anymore, but whatever is okay by you.

No, 15% is still a general baseline. As menu prices go up, the cut going to
the waitstaff follows it linearly.

Neil

WardNA wrote:
>
> >> I thought the average was 15% for good service,
> >
> >That's a little low, anymore, but whatever is okay by you.
>
> No, 15% is still a general baseline. As menu prices go up, the cut going to
> the waitstaff follows it linearly.
>
> Neil

Not here.

nancy

WardNA wrote:
>
> >> I thought the average was 15% for good service,
> >
> >That's a little low, anymore, but whatever is okay by you.
>
> No, 15% is still a general baseline. As menu prices go up, the cut going to
> the waitstaff follows it linearly.
>
> Neil

Not here.

nancy

Nancy Young wrote:

> Katra wrote:
>
> > IMHO 18% is rather high anyway.
> > I thought the average was 15% for good service,
>
> That's a little low, anymore, but whatever is okay by you. Well,
> lower than 15 is not okay for normal service, but you get what I
> mean.
>
> Besides, the difference between 15 and 18 is usually not worth
> quibbling about, if you do the math.
>
> What's interesting to me is that there is an assumption that if there
> is a gratuity already added in, the waitstaff will not perform as
> professionals and do their job. Whenever I've been in that situation,
> they run around like crazy trying to make sure everyone has their
> beverage/dinner/whatever. Just because they wait for a living does
> not make them slackers.


Yup...the wait folks I know work very hard to earn a living, as do many
bartenders I know (there are exceptions natcherly...). Physically it's hard
being on one's feet all day, even if young and hale 'n hearty...and putting
up with all the crap that a public contact job entails. I couldn't do it.


More often I've noticed my co-diners are
> more annoying than anything.


This seems to be a general trend...

OT - ish but there's a little Saturday farmer's market in the school playlot
around the corner. Sometimes they have a petting zoo/pony rides for the
kids. When they have the petting zoo they have a "no dogs" rule for the
farmer's market, as dogs might upset the animals and vv. Well whaddya know
here comes Mr & Mrs Yuppie with their double - wide stroller and Golden
Retriever in tow. Ms. Entitlment tries to plead and argue her dog's way in,
then gets busy on the cell phone calling "the city" (yeah, on Saturday
morning lol). What a load. And there's a place to tie up yer dog and they
have water and gratis treats for the pooches, too ...it's not like they're
casting the dogs adrift or something.

People these daze...

--
Best
Greg "she didn't get in..."

Gregory Morrow wrote:
>
> Nancy Young wrote:

> > What's interesting to me is that there is an assumption that if there
> > is a gratuity already added in, the waitstaff will not perform as
> > professionals and do their job. Whenever I've been in that situation,
> > they run around like crazy trying to make sure everyone has their
> > beverage/dinner/whatever. Just because they wait for a living does
> > not make them slackers.
>
> Yup...the wait folks I know work very hard to earn a living, as do many
> bartenders I know (there are exceptions natcherly...). Physically it's hard
> being on one's feet all day, even if young and hale 'n hearty...and putting
> up with all the crap that a public contact job entails. I couldn't do it.

> This seems to be a general trend...
>
> OT - ish but there's a little Saturday farmer's market in the school playlot
> around the corner. Sometimes they have a petting zoo/pony rides for the
> kids. When they have the petting zoo they have a "no dogs" rule for the
> farmer's market, as dogs might upset the animals and vv.

Well, that does make sense.

> Well whaddya know
> here comes Mr & Mrs Yuppie with their double - wide stroller and Golden
> Retriever in tow. Ms. Entitlment tries to plead and argue her dog's way in,
> then gets busy on the cell phone calling "the city" (yeah, on Saturday
> morning lol).

Maybe she could call the pope and get a dispensation.

> What a load. And there's a place to tie up yer dog and they
> have water and gratis treats for the pooches, too ...it's not like they're
> casting the dogs adrift or something.

I have a feeling jerks have been around forever.

nancy

Nancy Young wrote:

> I have a feeling jerks have been around forever.


Stupidity is exacerbated by cell phones Nancy...it's a whole new
dichotomy...

--
Best
Greg

Nancy Young wrote:

> I have a feeling jerks have been around forever.


Stupidity is exacerbated by cell phones Nancy...it's a whole new
dichotomy...

--
Best
Greg

In article . net>,
"Gregory Morrow" >
wrote:

> OT - ish but there's a little Saturday farmer's market in the school playlot
> around the corner. Sometimes they have a petting zoo/pony rides for the
> kids. When they have the petting zoo they have a "no dogs" rule for the
> farmer's market, as dogs might upset the animals and vv. Well whaddya know
> here comes Mr & Mrs Yuppie with their double - wide stroller and Golden
> Retriever in tow. Ms. Entitlment tries to plead and argue her dog's way in,
> then gets busy on the cell phone calling "the city" (yeah, on Saturday
> morning lol). What a load. And there's a place to tie up yer dog and they
> have water and gratis treats for the pooches, too ...it's not like they're
> casting the dogs adrift or something.

The state and town parks where I go for walks and bike rides have
clearly posted signs that say "No dogs." Yet there are invariably at
least a half dozen people with dogs--and always at least a few without
leashes for the dogs.

--
to respond, change "spamless.invalid" with "optonline.net"
please mail OT responses only

Gregory Morrow wrote:
>
> Nancy Young wrote:

> > What's interesting to me is that there is an assumption that if there
> > is a gratuity already added in, the waitstaff will not perform as
> > professionals and do their job. Whenever I've been in that situation,
> > they run around like crazy trying to make sure everyone has their
> > beverage/dinner/whatever. Just because they wait for a living does
> > not make them slackers.
>
> Yup...the wait folks I know work very hard to earn a living, as do many
> bartenders I know (there are exceptions natcherly...). Physically it's hard
> being on one's feet all day, even if young and hale 'n hearty...and putting
> up with all the crap that a public contact job entails. I couldn't do it.

> This seems to be a general trend...
>
> OT - ish but there's a little Saturday farmer's market in the school playlot
> around the corner. Sometimes they have a petting zoo/pony rides for the
> kids. When they have the petting zoo they have a "no dogs" rule for the
> farmer's market, as dogs might upset the animals and vv.

Well, that does make sense.

> Well whaddya know
> here comes Mr & Mrs Yuppie with their double - wide stroller and Golden
> Retriever in tow. Ms. Entitlment tries to plead and argue her dog's way in,
> then gets busy on the cell phone calling "the city" (yeah, on Saturday
> morning lol).

Maybe she could call the pope and get a dispensation.

> What a load. And there's a place to tie up yer dog and they
> have water and gratis treats for the pooches, too ...it's not like they're
> casting the dogs adrift or something.

I have a feeling jerks have been around forever.

nancy

In article . net>,
"Gregory Morrow" >
wrote:

> OT - ish but there's a little Saturday farmer's market in the school playlot
> around the corner. Sometimes they have a petting zoo/pony rides for the
> kids. When they have the petting zoo they have a "no dogs" rule for the
> farmer's market, as dogs might upset the animals and vv. Well whaddya know
> here comes Mr & Mrs Yuppie with their double - wide stroller and Golden
> Retriever in tow. Ms. Entitlment tries to plead and argue her dog's way in,
> then gets busy on the cell phone calling "the city" (yeah, on Saturday
> morning lol). What a load. And there's a place to tie up yer dog and they
> have water and gratis treats for the pooches, too ...it's not like they're
> casting the dogs adrift or something.

The state and town parks where I go for walks and bike rides have
clearly posted signs that say "No dogs." Yet there are invariably at
least a half dozen people with dogs--and always at least a few without
leashes for the dogs.

--
to respond, change "spamless.invalid" with "optonline.net"
please mail OT responses only

One time on Usenet, said:

<snip>

> What's interesting to me is that there is an assumption that if there
> is a gratuity already added in, the waitstaff will not perform as
> professionals and do their job. Whenever I've been in that situation,
> they run around like crazy trying to make sure everyone has their
> beverage/dinner/whatever.

I don't think I've ever been in such a large party that the tip was
automatic, although I've seen in on many a menu over the years.

> Just because they wait for a living does not make them slackers.

Quite true -- a professional waitperson wants you to come back,
it's job security.

> More often I've noticed my co-diners are more annoying than
> anything.

Arg, too true! Although I did have an especially annoying waitress
once -- she ate half of our appetizer! She also happened to be my
mother-in-law... <just teasing>


--
J.J. in WA ~ mom, vid gamer, novice cook ~
"I rule you!" - Travis of the Cosmos, ATHF
(COLD to HOT for e-mail)

>> I thought the average was 15% for good service,
>
>That's a little low, anymore, but whatever is okay by you.

No, 15% is still a general baseline. As menu prices go up, the cut going to
the waitstaff follows it linearly.

Neil

"Nancy Young" > wrote in message
...
> Katra wrote:
>
> > IMHO 18% is rather high anyway.
> > I thought the average was 15% for good service,
>
> That's a little low, anymore, but whatever is okay by you. Well,
> lower than 15 is not okay for normal service, but you get what I
> mean.
>
> Besides, the difference between 15 and 18 is usually not worth
> quibbling about, if you do the math.
>
> What's interesting to me is that there is an assumption that if there
> is a gratuity already added in, the waitstaff will not perform as
> professionals and do their job. Whenever I've been in that situation,
> they run around like crazy trying to make sure everyone has their
> beverage/dinner/whatever. Just because they wait for a living does
> not make them slackers. More often I've noticed my co-diners are
> more annoying than anything.
>
> nancy

Of course they run around like maniacs with a large party, it's a large
party! And what I've discovered (and also have done) is if the waitstaff
does an excellent job, despite the fact that the tip is included, many
people give a little extra gratuity. It's so nice when that happens!
(Which is why I return the favor.)

kili

Nancy Young wrote:

> Katra wrote:
>
> > IMHO 18% is rather high anyway.
> > I thought the average was 15% for good service,
>
> That's a little low, anymore, but whatever is okay by you. Well,
> lower than 15 is not okay for normal service, but you get what I
> mean.
>
> Besides, the difference between 15 and 18 is usually not worth
> quibbling about, if you do the math.
>
> What's interesting to me is that there is an assumption that if there
> is a gratuity already added in, the waitstaff will not perform as
> professionals and do their job. Whenever I've been in that situation,
> they run around like crazy trying to make sure everyone has their
> beverage/dinner/whatever. Just because they wait for a living does
> not make them slackers.


Yup...the wait folks I know work very hard to earn a living, as do many
bartenders I know (there are exceptions natcherly...). Physically it's hard
being on one's feet all day, even if young and hale 'n hearty...and putting
up with all the crap that a public contact job entails. I couldn't do it.


More often I've noticed my co-diners are
> more annoying than anything.


This seems to be a general trend...

OT - ish but there's a little Saturday farmer's market in the school playlot
around the corner. Sometimes they have a petting zoo/pony rides for the
kids. When they have the petting zoo they have a "no dogs" rule for the
farmer's market, as dogs might upset the animals and vv. Well whaddya know
here comes Mr & Mrs Yuppie with their double - wide stroller and Golden
Retriever in tow. Ms. Entitlment tries to plead and argue her dog's way in,
then gets busy on the cell phone calling "the city" (yeah, on Saturday
morning lol). What a load. And there's a place to tie up yer dog and they
have water and gratis treats for the pooches, too ...it's not like they're
casting the dogs adrift or something.

People these daze...

--
Best
Greg "she didn't get in..."