Poor Kim sems to have commited an unforgivable sin by bringing up the
subject of Alminyum and Alzymers.

Although I am not competent to address the subject on scientific
grounds I think that it is not possible to eliminate culpability based
on other (non scientific) evidence.

Scientists are human and when I learned that a scientist took $18
Million from the Auminum industry to set up a proxy organization even
I started to accept that there could be a case.

For several years a principal source of funding for symposia and
research on AD in the USA was that organization. When some publicity
emerged a new proxy set-up took over with the same individual in the
top slot.

Did the Alzheimer's Association accept a computer system from the
Aluminum industry?? I have heard from one source (not verified) that
they did.

Papers are still emerging, based on large large scale studies, that
show a correlation of the incidence of dementia and aluminum in
drinking water.

It is starting to look as though gene expression of the most common
genetic defect predisposing people to AD also (?) confers an
incompetence in dealing with aluminum. I for one will start believing
in a link if the molecular biologists findings are repeated.

McDavitt

"Davio McDavitt" > wrote in message
m...
> Poor Kim sems to have commited an unforgivable sin by bringing up the
> subject of Alminyum and Alzymers.
>
> Although I am not competent to address the subject on scientific
> grounds I think that it is not possible to eliminate culpability based
> on other (non scientific) evidence.
>
> Scientists are human and when I learned that a scientist took $18
> Million from the Auminum industry to set up a proxy organization even
> I started to accept that there could be a case.
>
> For several years a principal source of funding for symposia and
> research on AD in the USA was that organization. When some publicity
> emerged a new proxy set-up took over with the same individual in the
> top slot.
>
> Did the Alzheimer's Association accept a computer system from the
> Aluminum industry?? I have heard from one source (not verified) that
> they did.
>
> Papers are still emerging, based on large large scale studies, that
> show a correlation of the incidence of dementia and aluminum in
> drinking water.
>
> It is starting to look as though gene expression of the most common
> genetic defect predisposing people to AD also (?) confers an
> incompetence in dealing with aluminum. I for one will start believing
> in a link if the molecular biologists findings are repeated.
>
> McDavitt

You do not cite a single source, let alone a reliable source, for this
information. If what you say is true then it is important and people should
know about it. We are waiting....


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 00:54:33 GMT, "Peter Aitken"
> wrote:

>"Davio McDavitt" > wrote in message
om...
>> Poor Kim sems to have commited an unforgivable sin by bringing up the
>> subject of Alminyum and Alzymers.

Or is it Al Tsaimers? Olts Hymurs?
>>
>> Although I am not competent to address the subject on scientific
>> grounds I think that it is not possible to eliminate culpability based
>> on other (non scientific) evidence.

I'm scratching my head over this one. Must be the aluminum foil I
used when cooking last night's dinner. That or the fact that the
previous owner of my house had his picture taken with Ronald Reagan.
>>
>> Scientists are human

Unassailable!

>>and when I learned that a scientist took $18
>> Million from the Auminum industry to set up a proxy organization even
>> I started to accept that there could be a case.

This is known as "poisoning the well," an informal logic fallacy more
properly called argumentum ad hominem (circumstantial). It's related
to an ad hominem (abusive) fallacy like calling one's opponent a
gormless git. Neither carries any logical force.
>>
>> For several years a principal source of funding for symposia and
>> research on AD in the USA was that organization. When some publicity
>> emerged a new proxy set-up took over with the same individual in the
>> top slot.

They must be out to get us! But does this individual have a name?
And do these organizations have names?
>>
>> Did the Alzheimer's Association accept a computer system from the
>> Aluminum industry?? I have heard from one source (not verified) that
>> they did.

Didn't you see the pictures of them fiddling with Henry Kaiser's
zipper? Try Google.
>>
>> Papers are still emerging, based on large large scale studies, that
>> show a correlation of the incidence of dementia and aluminum in
>> drinking water.
>>
Or is it beer in cans? That might be it, you know.

>> It is starting to look as though gene expression of the most common
>> genetic defect predisposing people to AD also (?) confers an
>> incompetence in dealing with aluminum. I for one will start believing
>> in a link if the molecular biologists findings are repeated.
>>
If not? How many times not? Which findings? Which biologists?

>> McDavitt
>
>You do not cite a single source, let alone a reliable source, for this
>information. If what you say is true then it is important and people should
>know about it. We are waiting....

I'm not. I'm vague enough.


modom

"Dallas is a rich man with a death wish in his eyes."
-- Jimmie Dale Gilmore

"Peter Aitken" > wrote in message . rr.com>...
> "Davio McDavitt" > wrote in message
> m...
> > Poor Kim sems to have commited an unforgivable sin by bringing up the
> > subject of Alminyum and Alzymers.
> >
> > Although I am not competent to address the subject on scientific
> > grounds I think that it is not possible to eliminate culpability based
> > on other (non scientific) evidence.
> >
> > Scientists are human and when I learned that a scientist took $18
> > Million from the Auminum industry to set up a proxy organization even
> > I started to accept that there could be a case.
> >
> > For several years a principal source of funding for symposia and
> > research on AD in the USA was that organization. When some publicity
> > emerged a new proxy set-up took over with the same individual in the
> > top slot.
> >
> > Did the Alzheimer's Association accept a computer system from the
> > Aluminum industry?? I have heard from one source (not verified) that
> > they did.
> >
> > Papers are still emerging, based on large large scale studies, that
> > show a correlation of the incidence of dementia and aluminum in
> > drinking water.
> >
> > It is starting to look as though gene expression of the most common
> > genetic defect predisposing people to AD also (?) confers an
> > incompetence in dealing with aluminum. I for one will start believing
> > in a link if the molecular biologists findings are repeated.
> >
> > McDavitt
>
> You do not cite a single source, let alone a reliable source, for this
> information. If what you say is true then it is important and people should
> know about it. We are waiting....


I am not a scientist and do get a little paranoid sometimes but I will
try to oblige - BIG SIGH - it was long ago and I am not good at this.

The source of the exposure of the proxy organization was a Canadian
Journalist called, I think Celina Bell. The name of the Proxy
organization was The Center for Trace-Element Studies. The (alleged)
recipient of the funds was Dr. Henryk Wisniewski.

The source of the story about the Alzheimers Association accepting the
computer system from the Alumininum Association was a student at
Toronto University who had worked with D. R. McLachlan on the study of
drinking water around 1996.

There have been several large scale (thousand plus) studies attempting
to link Al with dementia, the most recent one I have come across was
carried out in France in the last two years and came up with the
findings that at their definition of high alum level drinking drinking
water there was 2.5 times the incidence of dementia and where silicon
levels were high that it dropped to 0.75 times the average. I have
lost the source of the document, however I am sure the scientifically
clever people on this group can find it if they are interested enough.

The source of the information of the defective gene expression was a
Dr Tsunao Siatoh of The Alzheimer Disease Research Centre in San Deigo

McDavitt

"Davio McDavitt" > wrote in message
m...
>
> I am not a scientist and do get a little paranoid sometimes but I will
> try to oblige - BIG SIGH - it was long ago and I am not good at this.
>
> The source of the exposure of the proxy organization was a Canadian
> Journalist called, I think Celina Bell. The name of the Proxy
> organization was The Center for Trace-Element Studies. The (alleged)
> recipient of the funds was Dr. Henryk Wisniewski.
>
> The source of the story about the Alzheimers Association accepting the
> computer system from the Alumininum Association was a student at
> Toronto University who had worked with D. R. McLachlan on the study of
> drinking water around 1996.
>
> There have been several large scale (thousand plus) studies attempting
> to link Al with dementia, the most recent one I have come across was
> carried out in France in the last two years and came up with the
> findings that at their definition of high alum level drinking drinking
> water there was 2.5 times the incidence of dementia and where silicon
> levels were high that it dropped to 0.75 times the average. I have
> lost the source of the document, however I am sure the scientifically
> clever people on this group can find it if they are interested enough.
>
> The source of the information of the defective gene expression was a
> Dr Tsunao Siatoh of The Alzheimer Disease Research Centre in San Deigo
>
> McDavitt

Thanks for responding but I am afraid your information does not check out.
First of all, when you provide citations you need to provide specific
references to published information - name of publication, date, author. But
OK, maybe you do not remember that. But still it all seems fishy to me for
the following reasons:

- A web search for "Center for Trace Element Studies" turns up nothing by
that name.
- A search for "Celina Bell aluminum" turns up nothing.
- The French study you mention is American Journal of Epidemiology 2000;152:
pp.59-66. Its own authors state that their findings require verification.
Also (1) Correlation is not causation, (2) How much tap water do the French
drink anyway? Heck, I'm American and I drink almost no tap water. (3) No
control for where people grew up or lived most of their lives versus where
they live now.
- The Aluminum Industry funded studies on the Alz-Al link. So what? Of
course they would because it is of interest to them. Now, when an interested
party funds research there is always the chance for undue influence to be
exerted, but such funding does not automatically mean that the research
results are tainted. Universities and scientists regularly negotiate
contracts where the funding oprganization has no review of the results and
no say as to whether or where they are published.
- The Alz association may have gotten a computer system from the Al
industry. Gee - three thousand whole dollars!

If you want to make Alz-Al claims you will have to do better.

Peter Aitken
I

"Peter Aitken" > wrote in message . rr.com>...
> "Davio McDavitt" > wrote in message
> m...
> >
> > I am not a scientist and do get a little paranoid sometimes but I will
> > try to oblige - BIG SIGH - it was long ago and I am not good at this.
> >
> > The source of the exposure of the proxy organization was a Canadian
> > Journalist called, I think Celina Bell. The name of the Proxy
> > organization was The Center for Trace-Element Studies. The (alleged)
> > recipient of the funds was Dr. Henryk Wisniewski.
> >
> > The source of the story about the Alzheimers Association accepting the
> > computer system from the Alumininum Association was a student at
> > Toronto University who had worked with D. R. McLachlan on the study of
> > drinking water around 1996.
> >
> > There have been several large scale (thousand plus) studies attempting
> > to link Al with dementia, the most recent one I have come across was
> > carried out in France in the last two years and came up with the
> > findings that at their definition of high alum level drinking drinking
> > water there was 2.5 times the incidence of dementia and where silicon
> > levels were high that it dropped to 0.75 times the average. I have
> > lost the source of the document, however I am sure the scientifically
> > clever people on this group can find it if they are interested enough.
> >
> > The source of the information of the defective gene expression was a
> > Dr Tsunao Siatoh of The Alzheimer Disease Research Centre in San Deigo
> >
> > McDavitt
>
> Thanks for responding but I am afraid your information does not check out.

Do you mean that you were unable to check it out?

> First of all, when you provide citations you need to provide specific
> references to published information - name of publication, date, author. But
> OK, maybe you do not remember that. But still it all seems fishy to me for
> the following reasons:
>
> - A web search for "Center for Trace Element Studies" turns up nothing by
> that name.

I believe that there was a hyphen between trace and element
(trace-element).

> - A search for "Celina Bell aluminum" turns up nothing.
> - The French study you mention is American Journal of Epidemiology 2000;152:
> pp.59-66. Its own authors state that their findings require verification.
> Also (1) Correlation is not causation, (2) How much tap water do the French
> drink anyway? Heck, I'm American and I drink almost no tap water. (3) No
> control for where people grew up or lived most of their lives versus where
> they live now.

You must admit that French Evian (high silicon) water tastes nice!

> - The Aluminum Industry funded studies on the Alz-Al link. So what? Of
> course they would because it is of interest to them. Now, when an interested
> party funds research there is always the chance for undue influence to be
> exerted, but such funding does not automatically mean that the research
> results are tainted. Universities and scientists regularly negotiate
> contracts where the funding oprganization has no review of the results and
> no say as to whether or where they are published.
> - The Alz association may have gotten a computer system from the Al
> industry. Gee - three thousand whole dollars!

The system as described was cosiderably more.
>
> If you want to make Alz-Al claims you will have to do better.
>
> Peter Aitken
> I

I am really flattered to have real scientists responding to my
posting. My thanks on the information on how how the process works
regarding sources etc. I would have liked to have been a real
'ologist'. My son has an 'ology' and we are really proud of him.

Did I attempt to prove a link between Al and Az? I do not wish to be
seen as an equivocator but all I did was defend Kim and state that we
should not eliminate all suggestions of a link, and supply some
admittedly indirectly sourced information to support my argument.
Surely as a humble seeker after truth (which all scientists are after
all!) you will admit that until Alzheimers is explained to everyone's
satisfaction the jury is still out.

As a simple minded (non-scientific) investigator my instinct is that
when people behave in a guilty fashion there is a good possibility
that there is some activity or information that they wish to hide.

Simply because details of the parties have fallen off google's radar
it does not mean that they did not exist.

http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-69-652-...arijuana/clip5

Cut an paste the above clip and you can hear Celina Bell's voice and
watch her excellent report on 'Pot'(which I was not on when I wrote
the posting, honest).

I appreciate that Alzheimers can not be attributed so easily to a
single cause and I suspect that what we know as Alz is probably
several disorders (Cancer has over 100 varieties). My own argument is
that we are not certain that Aluminum is not a neurotoxic metal and to
add it to food (E541 etc.) is seriously irresponsible. My motivation
in being cautious regarding Aluminum is that my mother developed
severe premature dementia and for fifteen years previously she had
been on a medication which included aluminium albeit an inert form.
Not only that but it does add some bitterness to the food.

McDavitt

Davio McDavitt wrote:

> "Peter Aitken" > wrote in message . rr.com>...
>
>>"Davio McDavitt" > wrote in message
. com...
>>
>>>I am not a scientist and do get a little paranoid sometimes but I will
>>>try to oblige - BIG SIGH - it was long ago and I am not good at this.
>>>
>>>The source of the exposure of the proxy organization was a Canadian
>>>Journalist called, I think Celina Bell. The name of the Proxy
>>>organization was The Center for Trace-Element Studies. The (alleged)
>>>recipient of the funds was Dr. Henryk Wisniewski.
>>>
>>>The source of the story about the Alzheimers Association accepting the
>>>computer system from the Alumininum Association was a student at
>>>Toronto University who had worked with D. R. McLachlan on the study of
>>>drinking water around 1996.
>>>
>>>There have been several large scale (thousand plus) studies attempting
>>>to link Al with dementia, the most recent one I have come across was
>>>carried out in France in the last two years and came up with the
>>>findings that at their definition of high alum level drinking drinking
>>>water there was 2.5 times the incidence of dementia and where silicon
>>>levels were high that it dropped to 0.75 times the average. I have
>>>lost the source of the document, however I am sure the scientifically
>>>clever people on this group can find it if they are interested enough.
>>>
>>>The source of the information of the defective gene expression was a
>>>Dr Tsunao Siatoh of The Alzheimer Disease Research Centre in San Deigo
>>>
>>>McDavitt
>>
>>Thanks for responding but I am afraid your information does not check out.
>
>
> Do you mean that you were unable to check it out?
>
>>First of all, when you provide citations you need to provide specific
>>references to published information - name of publication, date, author. But
>>OK, maybe you do not remember that. But still it all seems fishy to me for
>>the following reasons:
>>
>>- A web search for "Center for Trace Element Studies" turns up nothing by
>>that name.
>
> I believe that there was a hyphen between trace and element
> (trace-element).

Yes, there is. But they talk about a genetic relationship rather than
an aluminum one.
<http://www.omr.state.ny.us/ddso/ibr/resource/hp_nyrgibr.jsp>

"The Center for Trace Element Studies and Environmental
Neurotoxicology conducts an integrated program of research on various
aspects of the possible role of environmental agents in causing birth
defects and neurodegenerative disease. The involvement of a number of
elements-lead, manganese, and aluminum, for example-in a host of
dementing and deteriorative conditions of the central nervous system
has often been suggested. Research conducted by the center assesses
the role of trace elements in brain functioning. For further
information contact Ted Lidsky, Ph.D., (718) 494-5193"

And

"Alzheimer Disease -- IBR was one of four leading laboratories to
pinpoint the gene for Alzheimer disease. Scientists here also
developed the first test-tube model of the lesions that cause dementia
in Alzheimer disease. This discovery opens new avenues for diagnosing
the disease and for testing emerging drug therapies."


>>- A search for "Celina Bell aluminum" turns up nothing.

Right. But just "Celina Bell" turns up this (about 1/3 of the way down
the page): <http://www.asstr.org/~JR_Parz/FavoriteNovels.htm>

>>- The French study you mention is American Journal of Epidemiology 2000;152:
>>pp.59-66. Its own authors state that their findings require verification.
>>Also (1) Correlation is not causation, (2) How much tap water do the French
>>drink anyway? Heck, I'm American and I drink almost no tap water. (3) No
>>control for where people grew up or lived most of their lives versus where
>>they live now.

The study tried to include too many variables, I think. Correlations
were weak and most of the criteria used for the premises were
estimates. Take a look for yourself: <http://tinyurl.com/49rrl>

> You must admit that French Evian (high silicon) water tastes nice!

Couldn't find composition of Evian online.

>>- The Aluminum Industry funded studies on the Alz-Al link. So what? Of
>>course they would because it is of interest to them. Now, when an interested
>>party funds research there is always the chance for undue influence to be
>>exerted, but such funding does not automatically mean that the research
>>results are tainted. Universities and scientists regularly negotiate
>>contracts where the funding oprganization has no review of the results and
>>no say as to whether or where they are published.

>>- The Alz association may have gotten a computer system from the Al
>>industry. Gee - three thousand whole dollars!
>
> The system as described was considerably more.

It doesn't really matter. The data is all that counts.

>>If you want to make Alz-Al claims you will have to do better.
>>
>>Peter Aitken
>
> I am really flattered to have real scientists responding to my
> posting. My thanks on the information on how how the process works
> regarding sources etc. I would have liked to have been a real
> 'ologist'. My son has an 'ology' and we are really proud of him.
>
> Did I attempt to prove a link between Al and Az?

No. You just implied that there just may, possibly, could be, perhaps
sorta might be and thus, we should stop using all aluminum.

> I do not wish to be
> seen as an equivocator but all I did was defend Kim and state that we
> should not eliminate all suggestions of a link, and supply some
> admittedly indirectly sourced information to support my argument.

What? The clauses of that sentence seem to have only the most tenuous
relationship. Not enough to make sense.

"Indirectly sourced information" means no good data.

> Surely as a humble seeker after truth (which all scientists are after
> all!) you will admit that until Alzheimers is explained to everyone's
> satisfaction the jury is still out.

Nah. Science isn't about everyone's satisfaction. There's no democracy
in science. It's a method of ascertaining data which, properly
interpreted becomes information. It doesn't depend on anyone's being
convinced of anything. There's no jury, only speculators.

> As a simple minded (non-scientific) investigator my instinct is that
> when people behave in a guilty fashion there is a good possibility
> that there is some activity or information that they wish to hide.

And paranoia doesn't mean that somebody isn't out to get you, right?
"Guilty fashion," indeed. I don't see "guilty" behavior in the
panorama you provided.

> Simply because details of the parties have fallen off google's radar
> it does not mean that they did not exist.
>
> http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-69-652-...arijuana/clip5
>
> Cut an paste the above clip and you can hear Celina Bell's voice and
> watch her excellent report on 'Pot'(which I was not on when I wrote
> the posting, honest).

This has absolutely nothing to do with aluminum or Alzheimer. Why
muddy an already opaque puddle?

> I appreciate that Alzheimers can not be attributed so easily to a
> single cause and I suspect that what we know as Alz is probably
> several disorders (Cancer has over 100 varieties).

You're guessing about all of this rather than actually investigating
what is known. That Alz has a genetic marker. Read about it from
mainstream sources before going off half-cocked.

> My own argument is
> that we are not certain that Aluminum is not a neurotoxic metal

Aluminum is the most plentiful metal on earth. You eat it every day in
virtually every plant material consumed. Animals have trace amounts,
as well. It's all around us, all the time. We've been eating it since
we've been eating. Along with every other live thing. No demonstration
of neurotoxicity with all that experience to review.

*You* are not certain.

> and to
> add it to food (E541 etc.) is seriously irresponsible.

This is the kind of conclusion that lazy guesswork and bad logic
provides. You *guess* that it may be a neurotoxin because you
*believe* it might be because of something that you *surmise* happened
to your mother, so *everyone* should eschew it until it's proven to be
absolutely harmless. Have you ever heard of water?

> My motivation
> in being cautious regarding Aluminum is that my mother developed
> severe premature dementia and for fifteen years previously she had
> been on a medication which included aluminium albeit an inert form.

Do you not know what inert means? How does one make aluminum inert?

And this is a near-perfect example of the logical fallacy of "post
hoc; propter hoc." It's all about seeing two events, one following
another and ascribing causality to the first. After this, therefore
because of this.

And, let's not forget the other logical fallacy of extrapolating from
the particular to the universal. It happened once (if in fact it
actually did!) so it will happen to all hereafter.

> Not only that but it does add some bitterness to the food.

Give it a rest. This sounds like some teenager explaining why he was
late bringing the car home. Long list of difficulties and ends with,
"And we also had a flat tire." Everything but the kitchen sink, and
finally, the kitchen sink.

You're trying to build a case on spurious reasoning and no facts.

Pastorio

"Davio McDavitt" > wrote in message
m...
>
> I am not a scientist and do get a little paranoid sometimes but I will
> try to oblige - BIG SIGH - it was long ago and I am not good at this.
>
> The source of the exposure of the proxy organization was a Canadian
> Journalist called, I think Celina Bell. The name of the Proxy
> organization was The Center for Trace-Element Studies. The (alleged)
> recipient of the funds was Dr. Henryk Wisniewski.
>
> The source of the story about the Alzheimers Association accepting the
> computer system from the Alumininum Association was a student at
> Toronto University who had worked with D. R. McLachlan on the study of
> drinking water around 1996.
>
> There have been several large scale (thousand plus) studies attempting
> to link Al with dementia, the most recent one I have come across was
> carried out in France in the last two years and came up with the
> findings that at their definition of high alum level drinking drinking
> water there was 2.5 times the incidence of dementia and where silicon
> levels were high that it dropped to 0.75 times the average. I have
> lost the source of the document, however I am sure the scientifically
> clever people on this group can find it if they are interested enough.
>
> The source of the information of the defective gene expression was a
> Dr Tsunao Siatoh of The Alzheimer Disease Research Centre in San Deigo
>
> McDavitt

Thanks for responding but I am afraid your information does not check out.
First of all, when you provide citations you need to provide specific
references to published information - name of publication, date, author. But
OK, maybe you do not remember that. But still it all seems fishy to me for
the following reasons:

- A web search for "Center for Trace Element Studies" turns up nothing by
that name.
- A search for "Celina Bell aluminum" turns up nothing.
- The French study you mention is American Journal of Epidemiology 2000;152:
pp.59-66. Its own authors state that their findings require verification.
Also (1) Correlation is not causation, (2) How much tap water do the French
drink anyway? Heck, I'm American and I drink almost no tap water. (3) No
control for where people grew up or lived most of their lives versus where
they live now.
- The Aluminum Industry funded studies on the Alz-Al link. So what? Of
course they would because it is of interest to them. Now, when an interested
party funds research there is always the chance for undue influence to be
exerted, but such funding does not automatically mean that the research
results are tainted. Universities and scientists regularly negotiate
contracts where the funding oprganization has no review of the results and
no say as to whether or where they are published.
- The Alz association may have gotten a computer system from the Al
industry. Gee - three thousand whole dollars!

If you want to make Alz-Al claims you will have to do better.

Peter Aitken
I

In article > ,
(Davio McDavitt) wrote:

> Poor Kim sems to have commited an unforgivable sin by bringing up the
> subject of Alminyum and Alzymers.
>
> Although I am not competent to address the subject on scientific
> grounds I think that it is not possible to eliminate culpability based
> on other (non scientific) evidence.
>
> Scientists are human and when I learned that a scientist took $18
> Million from the Auminum industry to set up a proxy organization even
> I started to accept that there could be a case.
>
> For several years a principal source of funding for symposia and
> research on AD in the USA was that organization. When some publicity
> emerged a new proxy set-up took over with the same individual in the
> top slot.
>
> Did the Alzheimer's Association accept a computer system from the
> Aluminum industry?? I have heard from one source (not verified) that
> they did.
>
> Papers are still emerging, based on large large scale studies, that
> show a correlation of the incidence of dementia and aluminum in
> drinking water.
>
> It is starting to look as though gene expression of the most common
> genetic defect predisposing people to AD also (?) confers an
> incompetence in dealing with aluminum. I for one will start believing
> in a link if the molecular biologists findings are repeated.
>
> McDavitt

I AM a scientist. I briefly studied aluminum in grad school. I can
also spell. The link between aluminum in drinking water and Alzheimer's
disease was first suspected in the late 1970's, when people who were
getting hemodialysis in areas with high levels of aluminum in the water
developed dementia. Once the link was realized, dialysis centers
treated their water to get rid of the aluminum and incidence of the
condition decreased. In addition, some patients with kidney failure
were taking aluminum-containing antacids to reduce their absorption of
phosphorus, which could cause bone disease. The fraction of aluminum
that got absorbed was implicated in a different type of bone disease.
Nowadays, kidney failure patients get calcium-containing antacids to
reduce phosphorus absorption from the gut. This has also reduced the
incidence of aluminum toxicity.

A major distinction needs to be made here. Folks with kidney failure
cannot rid their bodies of many toxins, including aluminum. If they go
on hemodialysis,their blood gets treated three times a week to flush out
the toxins that the kidneys can't. The dialysis requires large amounts
of water, much more than mere mortals could drink in a day.

For fun, I just looked for recent articles (2000 and later) on aluminum
and dementia on PubMed. I only saw one "large scale" study (2700
subjects at baseline). They found a two-fold increase in risk of
dementia when water aluminum content was greater than 0.1 part per
million, but found no dose effect (the more aluminum, the higher the
risk). Compare this to smoking, where there is a 12-20-fold increase in
risk of lung cancer with a dose effect. Many of the other studies I
found involved dosing rabbits and rats with far greater amounts of
aluminum than healthy people would take in.

I require a higher threshold of proof to believe in a link between
aluminum and Alzheimer's disease in people without kidney failure who
don't work in aluminum smelting plants.

Cindy

--
C.J. Fuller

Delete the obvious to email me

Cindy Fuller > wrote in message >...
> In article > ,
> (Davio McDavitt) wrote:
>
> > Poor Kim sems to have commited an unforgivable sin by bringing up the
> > subject of Alminyum and Alzymers.
> >

-----------------------snipped for convenience----------------

(?) confers an
> > incompetence in dealing with aluminum. I for one will start believing
> > in a link if the molecular biologists findings are repeated.
> >
> > McDavitt
>
> I AM a scientist. I briefly studied aluminum in grad school. I can
> also spell. The link between aluminum in drinking water and Alzheimer's
> disease was first suspected in the late 1970's, when people who were
> getting hemodialysis in areas with high levels of aluminum in the water
> developed dementia. Once the link was realized, dialysis centers
> treated their water to get rid of the aluminum and incidence of the
> condition decreased. In addition, some patients with kidney failure
> were taking aluminum-containing antacids to reduce their absorption of
> phosphorus, which could cause bone disease. The fraction of aluminum
> that got absorbed was implicated in a different type of bone disease.
> Nowadays, kidney failure patients get calcium-containing antacids to
> reduce phosphorus absorption from the gut. This has also reduced the
> incidence of aluminum toxicity.
>
> A major distinction needs to be made here. Folks with kidney failure
> cannot rid their bodies of many toxins, including aluminum. If they go
> on hemodialysis,their blood gets treated three times a week to flush out
> the toxins that the kidneys can't. The dialysis requires large amounts
> of water, much more than mere mortals could drink in a day.
>
> For fun, I just looked for recent articles (2000 and later) on aluminum
> and dementia on PubMed. I only saw one "large scale" study (2700
> subjects at baseline). They found a two-fold increase in risk of
> dementia when water aluminum content was greater than 0.1 part per
> million, but found no dose effect (the more aluminum, the higher the
> risk). Compare this to smoking, where there is a 12-20-fold increase in
> risk of lung cancer with a dose effect. Many of the other studies I
> found involved dosing rabbits and rats with far greater amounts of
> aluminum than healthy people would take in.
>
> I require a higher threshold of proof to believe in a link between
> aluminum and Alzheimer's disease in people without kidney failure who
> don't work in aluminum smelting plants.
>
> Cindy

Again grateful for the enlightening information from a real scientist
and I have learned from the posting.

I still think that it is irresponsible to add aluminum based raising
agents and other such additives to our food when we are all living
longer and it does seem that aluminum buils up in our heads and older
folk (like me) have deteriorating kidneys.

I will continue eating organic when I can afford it and have tossed
out my aluminum pans.

McDavitt

On 22 Aug 2004 05:48:18 -0700, (Davio McDavitt) wrote:

>I will continue eating organic when I can afford it and have tossed
>out my aluminum pans.
>
Stay out of restaurants, too.


modom

"Dallas is a rich man with a death wish in his eyes."
-- Jimmie Dale Gilmore

Davio McDavitt wrote:

> Cindy Fuller > wrote in message >...
>
>>In article > ,
>> (Davio McDavitt) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Poor Kim sems to have commited an unforgivable sin by bringing up the
>>>subject of Alminyum and Alzymers.
>>>
>
>
> -----------------------snipped for convenience----------------
>
> (?) confers an
>
>>>incompetence in dealing with aluminum. I for one will start believing
>>>in a link if the molecular biologists findings are repeated.
>>>
>>>McDavitt
>>
>>I AM a scientist. I briefly studied aluminum in grad school. I can
>>also spell. The link between aluminum in drinking water and Alzheimer's
>>disease was first suspected in the late 1970's, when people who were
>>getting hemodialysis in areas with high levels of aluminum in the water
>>developed dementia. Once the link was realized, dialysis centers
>>treated their water to get rid of the aluminum and incidence of the
>>condition decreased. In addition, some patients with kidney failure
>>were taking aluminum-containing antacids to reduce their absorption of
>>phosphorus, which could cause bone disease. The fraction of aluminum
>>that got absorbed was implicated in a different type of bone disease.
>>Nowadays, kidney failure patients get calcium-containing antacids to
>>reduce phosphorus absorption from the gut. This has also reduced the
>>incidence of aluminum toxicity.
>>
>>A major distinction needs to be made here. Folks with kidney failure
>>cannot rid their bodies of many toxins, including aluminum. If they go
>>on hemodialysis,their blood gets treated three times a week to flush out
>>the toxins that the kidneys can't. The dialysis requires large amounts
>>of water, much more than mere mortals could drink in a day.
>>
>>For fun, I just looked for recent articles (2000 and later) on aluminum
>>and dementia on PubMed. I only saw one "large scale" study (2700
>>subjects at baseline). They found a two-fold increase in risk of
>>dementia when water aluminum content was greater than 0.1 part per
>>million, but found no dose effect (the more aluminum, the higher the
>>risk). Compare this to smoking, where there is a 12-20-fold increase in
>>risk of lung cancer with a dose effect. Many of the other studies I
>>found involved dosing rabbits and rats with far greater amounts of
>>aluminum than healthy people would take in.
>>
>>I require a higher threshold of proof to believe in a link between
>>aluminum and Alzheimer's disease in people without kidney failure who
>>don't work in aluminum smelting plants.
>>
>>Cindy
>
>
> Again grateful for the enlightening information from a real scientist
> and I have learned from the posting.
>
> I still think that it is irresponsible to add aluminum based raising
> agents and other such additives to our food when we are all living
> longer and it does seem that aluminum buils up in our heads and older
> folk (like me) have deteriorating kidneys.

Did you even read what the post above said? And the others that have
replied to your ill-informed meanderings?

> I will continue eating organic when I can afford it and have tossed
> out my aluminum pans.

I guess not.

Pastorio

"Bob (this one)" > wrote in message >...
> Davio McDavitt wrote:
>
> > Cindy Fuller > wrote in message >...
> >
> >>In article > ,
> >> (Davio McDavitt) wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Poor Kim sems to have commited an unforgivable sin by bringing up the
> >>>subject of Alminyum and Alzymers.
> >>>
> >
> >
> > -----------------------snipped for convenience----------------
> >
> > (?) confers an
> >
> >>>incompetence in dealing with aluminum. I for one will start believing
> >>>in a link if the molecular biologists findings are repeated.
> >>>
> >>>McDavitt
> >>
> >>I AM a scientist. I briefly studied aluminum in grad school. I can
> >>also spell. The link between aluminum in drinking water and Alzheimer's
> >>disease was first suspected in the late 1970's, when people who were
> >>getting hemodialysis in areas with high levels of aluminum in the water
> >>developed dementia. Once the link was realized, dialysis centers
> >>treated their water to get rid of the aluminum and incidence of the
> >>condition decreased. In addition, some patients with kidney failure
> >>were taking aluminum-containing antacids to reduce their absorption of
> >>phosphorus, which could cause bone disease. The fraction of aluminum
> >>that got absorbed was implicated in a different type of bone disease.
> >>Nowadays, kidney failure patients get calcium-containing antacids to
> >>reduce phosphorus absorption from the gut. This has also reduced the
> >>incidence of aluminum toxicity.
> >>
> >>A major distinction needs to be made here. Folks with kidney failure
> >>cannot rid their bodies of many toxins, including aluminum. If they go
> >>on hemodialysis,their blood gets treated three times a week to flush out
> >>the toxins that the kidneys can't. The dialysis requires large amounts
> >>of water, much more than mere mortals could drink in a day.
> >>
> >>For fun, I just looked for recent articles (2000 and later) on aluminum
> >>and dementia on PubMed. I only saw one "large scale" study (2700
> >>subjects at baseline). They found a two-fold increase in risk of
> >>dementia when water aluminum content was greater than 0.1 part per
> >>million, but found no dose effect (the more aluminum, the higher the
> >>risk). Compare this to smoking, where there is a 12-20-fold increase in
> >>risk of lung cancer with a dose effect. Many of the other studies I
> >>found involved dosing rabbits and rats with far greater amounts of
> >>aluminum than healthy people would take in.
> >>
> >>I require a higher threshold of proof to believe in a link between
> >>aluminum and Alzheimer's disease in people without kidney failure who
> >>don't work in aluminum smelting plants.
> >>
> >>Cindy
> >
> >
> > Again grateful for the enlightening information from a real scientist
> > and I have learned from the posting.
> >
> > I still think that it is irresponsible to add aluminum based raising
> > agents and other such additives to our food when we are all living
> > longer and it does seem that aluminum buils up in our heads and older
> > folk (like me) have deteriorating kidneys.
>
> Did you even read what the post above said? And the others that have
> replied to your ill-informed meanderings?
>
> > I will continue eating organic when I can afford it and have tossed
> > out my aluminum pans.
>
> I guess not.
>
> Pastorio

Off now but thanks to everyone for the effort invested in my
education. Not nearly so fearful about aluminum.

TFAs, now that is something else that causes me sleepless
nights.......

mcdavitt

P.S. Pastorio - Sorry bout spelling your name wrong.

"Bob (this one)" > wrote in message >...
> Davio McDavitt wrote:
>
> > Cindy Fuller > wrote in message >...
> >
> >>In article > ,
> >> (Davio McDavitt) wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Poor Kim sems to have commited an unforgivable sin by bringing up the
> >>>subject of Alminyum and Alzymers.
> >>>
> >
> >
> > -----------------------snipped for convenience----------------
> >
> > (?) confers an
> >
> >>>incompetence in dealing with aluminum. I for one will start believing
> >>>in a link if the molecular biologists findings are repeated.
> >>>
> >>>McDavitt
> >>
> >>I AM a scientist. I briefly studied aluminum in grad school. I can
> >>also spell. The link between aluminum in drinking water and Alzheimer's
> >>disease was first suspected in the late 1970's, when people who were
> >>getting hemodialysis in areas with high levels of aluminum in the water
> >>developed dementia. Once the link was realized, dialysis centers
> >>treated their water to get rid of the aluminum and incidence of the
> >>condition decreased. In addition, some patients with kidney failure
> >>were taking aluminum-containing antacids to reduce their absorption of
> >>phosphorus, which could cause bone disease. The fraction of aluminum
> >>that got absorbed was implicated in a different type of bone disease.
> >>Nowadays, kidney failure patients get calcium-containing antacids to
> >>reduce phosphorus absorption from the gut. This has also reduced the
> >>incidence of aluminum toxicity.
> >>
> >>A major distinction needs to be made here. Folks with kidney failure
> >>cannot rid their bodies of many toxins, including aluminum. If they go
> >>on hemodialysis,their blood gets treated three times a week to flush out
> >>the toxins that the kidneys can't. The dialysis requires large amounts
> >>of water, much more than mere mortals could drink in a day.
> >>
> >>For fun, I just looked for recent articles (2000 and later) on aluminum
> >>and dementia on PubMed. I only saw one "large scale" study (2700
> >>subjects at baseline). They found a two-fold increase in risk of
> >>dementia when water aluminum content was greater than 0.1 part per
> >>million, but found no dose effect (the more aluminum, the higher the
> >>risk). Compare this to smoking, where there is a 12-20-fold increase in
> >>risk of lung cancer with a dose effect. Many of the other studies I
> >>found involved dosing rabbits and rats with far greater amounts of
> >>aluminum than healthy people would take in.
> >>
> >>I require a higher threshold of proof to believe in a link between
> >>aluminum and Alzheimer's disease in people without kidney failure who
> >>don't work in aluminum smelting plants.
> >>
> >>Cindy
> >
> >
> > Again grateful for the enlightening information from a real scientist
> > and I have learned from the posting.
> >
> > I still think that it is irresponsible to add aluminum based raising
> > agents and other such additives to our food when we are all living
> > longer and it does seem that aluminum buils up in our heads and older
> > folk (like me) have deteriorating kidneys.
>
> Did you even read what the post above said? And the others that have
> replied to your ill-informed meanderings?
>
> > I will continue eating organic when I can afford it and have tossed
> > out my aluminum pans.
>
> I guess not.
>
> Pastorio

Off now but thanks to everyone for the effort invested in my
education. Not nearly so fearful about aluminum.

TFAs, now that is something else that causes me sleepless
nights.......

mcdavitt

P.S. Pastorio - Sorry bout spelling your name wrong.

Far as I can tell, someone wrote:
>Poor Kim sems to have commited an unforgivable sin by bringing up the
>subject of Alminyum and Alzymers.

> I am not competent to address the subject on scientific grounds

Nor to use a spell-checker, methinks.

But, OHMIGOD LET'S ALL RUN AROUND WAVING OUR ARMS IN THE AIR WHILE
SCREAMING IN FEAR!!!!!!!!

Wear a seatbelt and don't play with matches and you'll be fine.

In article > ,
(Davio McDavitt) wrote:

> Poor Kim sems to have commited an unforgivable sin by bringing up the
> subject of Alminyum and Alzymers.
>
> Although I am not competent to address the subject on scientific
> grounds I think that it is not possible to eliminate culpability based
> on other (non scientific) evidence.
>
> Scientists are human and when I learned that a scientist took $18
> Million from the Auminum industry to set up a proxy organization even
> I started to accept that there could be a case.
>
> For several years a principal source of funding for symposia and
> research on AD in the USA was that organization. When some publicity
> emerged a new proxy set-up took over with the same individual in the
> top slot.
>
> Did the Alzheimer's Association accept a computer system from the
> Aluminum industry?? I have heard from one source (not verified) that
> they did.
>
> Papers are still emerging, based on large large scale studies, that
> show a correlation of the incidence of dementia and aluminum in
> drinking water.
>
> It is starting to look as though gene expression of the most common
> genetic defect predisposing people to AD also (?) confers an
> incompetence in dealing with aluminum. I for one will start believing
> in a link if the molecular biologists findings are repeated.
>
> McDavitt

I AM a scientist. I briefly studied aluminum in grad school. I can
also spell. The link between aluminum in drinking water and Alzheimer's
disease was first suspected in the late 1970's, when people who were
getting hemodialysis in areas with high levels of aluminum in the water
developed dementia. Once the link was realized, dialysis centers
treated their water to get rid of the aluminum and incidence of the
condition decreased. In addition, some patients with kidney failure
were taking aluminum-containing antacids to reduce their absorption of
phosphorus, which could cause bone disease. The fraction of aluminum
that got absorbed was implicated in a different type of bone disease.
Nowadays, kidney failure patients get calcium-containing antacids to
reduce phosphorus absorption from the gut. This has also reduced the
incidence of aluminum toxicity.

A major distinction needs to be made here. Folks with kidney failure
cannot rid their bodies of many toxins, including aluminum. If they go
on hemodialysis,their blood gets treated three times a week to flush out
the toxins that the kidneys can't. The dialysis requires large amounts
of water, much more than mere mortals could drink in a day.

For fun, I just looked for recent articles (2000 and later) on aluminum
and dementia on PubMed. I only saw one "large scale" study (2700
subjects at baseline). They found a two-fold increase in risk of
dementia when water aluminum content was greater than 0.1 part per
million, but found no dose effect (the more aluminum, the higher the
risk). Compare this to smoking, where there is a 12-20-fold increase in
risk of lung cancer with a dose effect. Many of the other studies I
found involved dosing rabbits and rats with far greater amounts of
aluminum than healthy people would take in.

I require a higher threshold of proof to believe in a link between
aluminum and Alzheimer's disease in people without kidney failure who
don't work in aluminum smelting plants.

Cindy

--
C.J. Fuller

Delete the obvious to email me