In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved, and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders Fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders Fields.

- John McCrae

Debbie wrote:
> In Flanders fields the poppies blow
> Between the crosses, row on row,
> That mark our place; and in the sky
> The larks, still bravely singing, fly
> Scarce heard amid the guns below.
>
> We are the Dead. Short days ago
> We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
> Loved, and were loved, and now we lie
> In Flanders Fields.
>
> Take up our quarrel with the foe:
> To you from failing hands we throw
> The torch; be yours to hold it high.
> If ye break faith with us who die
> We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
> In Flanders Fields.
>
> - John McCrae
>


FWIW we will be going to the Remembrance Day ceremonies at 11 am this
morning, then into Toronto to visit my wife's family plot. Her mother
died on Remembrance Day (83). Also buried there are are father and
grandfather, both of whom fought in WWI. My father was in the air force
and was the sole survivor when his plane was shot down over Denmark and
escaped to Sweden and got back to England. When he died we took his
ashes over to Denmark to be buried alongside the graves of his crew. We
will be thinking of them and the sacrifices they made.

Eight years ago my wife and I were driving around Europe and stopped at
Ypres, and every night there is a wreath laying ceremony at the Mennen
Gates. We visited the old field hospital where John McCrae wrote that poem.

"Dave Smith" > wrote in message
...
> Debbie wrote:
>> In Flanders fields the poppies blow
>> Between the crosses, row on row,
>> That mark our place; and in the sky
>> The larks, still bravely singing, fly
>> Scarce heard amid the guns below.
>>
>> We are the Dead. Short days ago
>> We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
>> Loved, and were loved, and now we lie
>> In Flanders Fields.
>>
>> Take up our quarrel with the foe:
>> To you from failing hands we throw
>> The torch; be yours to hold it high.
>> If ye break faith with us who die
>> We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
>> In Flanders Fields.
>>
>> - John McCrae
>>
>
>
> FWIW we will be going to the Remembrance Day ceremonies at 11 am this
> morning, then into Toronto to visit my wife's family plot. Her mother died
> on Remembrance Day (83). Also buried there are are father and
> grandfather, both of whom fought in WWI. My father was in the air force
> and was the sole survivor when his plane was shot down over Denmark and
> escaped to Sweden and got back to England. When he died we took his ashes
> over to Denmark to be buried alongside the graves of his crew. We will be
> thinking of them and the sacrifices they made.
>
> Eight years ago my wife and I were driving around Europe and stopped at
> Ypres, and every night there is a wreath laying ceremony at the Mennen
> Gates. We visited the old field hospital where John McCrae wrote that
> poem.
>

My father-in-law fought in the first world war as part of a mounted unit.
He would often speak of the gas attacks. My father was a gunner in the 2nd
world war. In early heart bypass days he was hampered by having no leg
veins to use due to schrapnel injuries. My mother's uncle lost his life in
the first world war.

Debbie

Debbie wrote:
> In Flanders fields the poppies blow
> Between the crosses, row on row,
> That mark our place; and in the sky
> The larks, still bravely singing, fly
> Scarce heard amid the guns below.
>
> We are the Dead. Short days ago
> We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
> Loved, and were loved, and now we lie
> In Flanders Fields.
>
> Take up our quarrel with the foe:
> To you from failing hands we throw
> The torch; be yours to hold it high.
> If ye break faith with us who die
> We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
> In Flanders Fields.
>
> - John McCrae
>

It was a lovely poem.

Thanks...

"Debbie" > wrote in message
...
> In Flanders fields the poppies blow
> Between the crosses, row on row,
> That mark our place; and in the sky
> The larks, still bravely singing, fly
> Scarce heard amid the guns below.
>
> We are the Dead. Short days ago
> We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
> Loved, and were loved, and now we lie
> In Flanders Fields.
>
> Take up our quarrel with the foe:
> To you from failing hands we throw
> The torch; be yours to hold it high.
> If ye break faith with us who die
> We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
> In Flanders Fields.
>
> - John McCrae
>
We went to the diner on Sunday after church and a lady from the VFW was
taking a collection for the inpatients at the Veteran's Hospital. I quoted
this poem and half the kids sitting around in their pajamas and cell phones,
looked at me like I disturbed the peace. Maybe if more people KNEW that
11/11 at 11:11 a.m. is Armistice Day and that it has nothing to do with
getting that sale on coats before the holiday rush we might be a better
society.
-ginny

Virginia Tadrzynski wrote:
> "Debbie" > wrote in message
> ...
>> In Flanders fields the poppies blow
>> Between the crosses, row on row,
>> That mark our place; and in the sky
>> The larks, still bravely singing, fly
>> Scarce heard amid the guns below.
>>
>> We are the Dead. Short days ago
>> We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
>> Loved, and were loved, and now we lie
>> In Flanders Fields.
>>
>> Take up our quarrel with the foe:
>> To you from failing hands we throw
>> The torch; be yours to hold it high.
>> If ye break faith with us who die
>> We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
>> In Flanders Fields.
>>
>> - John McCrae
>>
> We went to the diner on Sunday after church and a lady from the VFW was
> taking a collection for the inpatients at the Veteran's Hospital. I quoted
> this poem and half the kids sitting around in their pajamas and cell phones,
> looked at me like I disturbed the peace. Maybe if more people KNEW that
> 11/11 at 11:11 a.m. is Armistice Day and that it has nothing to do with
> getting that sale on coats before the holiday rush we might be a better
> society.
> -ginny
>
>
Yesterday morning when I attended the local R.S.L 4 am Service I was
delighted to see many more youngsters attending amongst the hundreds there
in one word

Respect

Virginia Tadrzynski wrote:
> "Debbie" > wrote in message
> ...
>> In Flanders fields the poppies blow
>> Between the crosses, row on row,
>> That mark our place; and in the sky
>> The larks, still bravely singing, fly
>> Scarce heard amid the guns below.
>>
>> We are the Dead. Short days ago
>> We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
>> Loved, and were loved, and now we lie
>> In Flanders Fields.
>>
>> Take up our quarrel with the foe:
>> To you from failing hands we throw
>> The torch; be yours to hold it high.
>> If ye break faith with us who die
>> We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
>> In Flanders Fields.
>>
>> - John McCrae
>>
> We went to the diner on Sunday after church and a lady from the VFW was
> taking a collection for the inpatients at the Veteran's Hospital. I quoted
> this poem and half the kids sitting around in their pajamas and cell phones,
> looked at me like I disturbed the peace. Maybe if more people KNEW that
> 11/11 at 11:11 a.m. is Armistice Day and that it has nothing to do with
> getting that sale on coats before the holiday rush we might be a better
> society.
> -ginny
>
>
My grown grandkids, all born in the eighties, don't even know about WWI,
WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. I don't think American schools even teach
American History anymore. That being said, all the schools in our Parish
celebrated Veteran's Day yesterday and are closed today. This area has a
high percentage of veterans to the regular population and there are
multiple ceremonies going on today.

I went to the Veteran's Home in Jennings, LA yesterday and delivered a
load of goodies from the pantry, mostly jellies and jams. The home is
good about saving me the jars and rings too. The guys in the home are
mostly disabled and very elderly and we had a nice visit. Talked with
lots of WWII and Korean War vets and we swapped lies about our days in
the military. I try to visit often as I might well be in there someday
if my luck turns.

"Debbie" > wrote in news:hde9k8$s68$1
@news.eternal-september.org:

Pop didn't die in WWII. He died much later after serving.

Half staff flag, today!

RIP POP!

Andy

In article >, atec7 7 <"atec > wrote:
>Virginia Tadrzynski wrote:
>> "Debbie" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> In Flanders fields the poppies blow
>>> Between the crosses, row on row,
>>> That mark our place; and in the sky
>>> The larks, still bravely singing, fly
>>> Scarce heard amid the guns below.
>>>
>>> We are the Dead. Short days ago
>>> We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
>>> Loved, and were loved, and now we lie
>>> In Flanders Fields.
>>>
>>> Take up our quarrel with the foe:
>>> To you from failing hands we throw
>>> The torch; be yours to hold it high.
>>> If ye break faith with us who die
>>> We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
>>> In Flanders Fields.
>>>
>>> - John McCrae
>>>
>> We went to the diner on Sunday after church and a lady from the VFW was
>> taking a collection for the inpatients at the Veteran's Hospital. I quoted
>> this poem and half the kids sitting around in their pajamas and cell phones,
>> looked at me like I disturbed the peace. Maybe if more people KNEW that
>> 11/11 at 11:11 a.m. is Armistice Day and that it has nothing to do with
>> getting that sale on coats before the holiday rush we might be a better
>> society.
>>
>Yesterday morning when I attended the local R.S.L 4 am Service I was
>delighted to see many more youngsters attending amongst the hundreds there
>in one word -- Respect

ABC News reported up to twice the number of previous years at some
services. Here, we had a pretty good roll up of old vets at the
memorial for the 11 a.m. service. Mostly Vietnam vets at a guess; but
there was one old bloke in an electric wheel-chair who *may* have been
a survivor from WWI. If so, he'd have to be pushing towards 110; so I
suspect he was from WWII, which would still make him at least 81/82.

Cheers, Phred.

--
LID

In article >, Debbie
> wrote:

> In Flanders fields the poppies blow
> Between the crosses, row on row,
> That mark our place; and in the sky
> The larks, still bravely singing, fly
> Scarce heard amid the guns below.
>
> We are the Dead. Short days ago
> We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
> Loved, and were loved, and now we lie
> In Flanders Fields.
>
> Take up our quarrel with the foe:
> To you from failing hands we throw
> The torch; be yours to hold it high.
> If ye break faith with us who die
> We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
> In Flanders Fields.
>
> - John McCrae
>

A recent survey here asked school children what they though the message
of "Flanders Fields" is. They almost unanimously answered "peace".

While I'm sure their teachers approved the answer, it is entirely
wrong. And the dead do not sleep, though poppies grow in Flanders
Fields.

djb

--
"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press.
It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech. It is
the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose
coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag." --
Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, Sergeant, USMC

Phred wrote:

>
> ABC News reported up to twice the number of previous years at some
> services. Here, we had a pretty good roll up of old vets at the
> memorial for the 11 a.m. service. Mostly Vietnam vets at a guess; but
> there was one old bloke in an electric wheel-chair who *may* have been
> a survivor from WWI. If so, he'd have to be pushing towards 110; so I
> suspect he was from WWII, which would still make him at least 81/82.


We don't have any WWI vets left in Canada. The last one died this year.

When I was a kid, my father and most of my friends' fathers were WWII
vets, and there were some Korean War vets. The WWI vets were all really
old guys. At least, they seemed really old to me at the time.

My father in law was older than my grandmother, and was mentally alert
right up until the time he died at (almost) 95. He had served in the
American army in WWI and used to tell us about the war. Most of his
stories were amusing anecdotes, like unloading a train car of supplies
for the officer's mess and stealing a case of champagne and getting
drunk for the first time, or making arrangements for a French farm wife
to cook them a nice meal.

There were a couple more serious stories. He had been on guard duty one
night and was relieved by someone else. They traded places and about
five minutes later an artillery shell went off overhead and the guy who
had taken his place was killed by a big piece of shrapnel that went
through his chest.

One story that always choked him up was about the end of the war, when
the armistice came into effect at 11 am. they had been taking potshots
back and forth and someone in their outfit was shot and killed about 10
minutes before 11. It was a real disappointment because everyone knew
the truce was happening in a few minutes.

In 2001 my wife and I were driving around France and came across the
American War Cemetery at Meuse-Argonne and went to check it out. It was
an eerie experience. The place is beautiful and just as we got out of
the car the carillon started playing America The Beautiful. We thought
hat it was just for us, and then realized it was 12 noon. We went over
to see the grave markers and I headed off in one direction and my wife
headed off in another direction. We were about 200 yards apart and then
walked toward each other on an angle, and right where we met was the
grave of a soldier from her father's outfit.... killed in action Nov. 11
1918. We couldn't help but wonder if that was the guy that Jake had told
us about.

On 2009-11-11, Debbie > wrote:
> In Flanders fields the poppies blow

I'm not a fan of maudlin poetry, but I get it. When I got out of the
USAF in '70, I swore a lifelong pledge to never support the military or
war again. Young idialism.

Now, much much older, I realize man is, by nature, a stupid and
warlike creature. If someone attacks me, I will raise arms in my
defense, be it home or country. I also honor those who have done
likewise on my behalf. If you don't like corny poems, read a book
(Band of Brothers, Goodbye Darkness) or watch a good movie (All Quiet
On the Western Front). Even a bad movies will do. AMC is showing vet
films, all day, today.

As an afterthought, be not too critical of young idealism. Perhaps,
someday, we'll outgrow these sad instincts which cause so much grief
to ourselves.

nb

Debbie wrote:
> In Flanders fields the poppies blow
> Between the crosses, row on row,
> That mark our place; and in the sky
> The larks, still bravely singing, fly
> Scarce heard amid the guns below.
>
> We are the Dead. Short days ago
> We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
> Loved, and were loved, and now we lie
> In Flanders Fields.
>
> Take up our quarrel with the foe:
> To you from failing hands we throw
> The torch; be yours to hold it high.
> If ye break faith with us who die
> We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
> In Flanders Fields.
>
> - John McCrae
>

Fifty-two minutes and counting.

--
Jean B.

In article >, wrote:
>Phred wrote:
>
>> ABC News reported up to twice the number of previous years at some
>> services. Here, we had a pretty good roll up of old vets at the
>> memorial for the 11 a.m. service. Mostly Vietnam vets at a guess; but
>> there was one old bloke in an electric wheel-chair who *may* have been
>> a survivor from WWI. If so, he'd have to be pushing towards 110; so I
>> suspect he was from WWII, which would still make him at least 81/82.
>
>We don't have any WWI vets left in Canada. The last one died this year.

Yeah, I rather suspect all ours are gone now too. My uncertainty
illustrated above is because there's a bit of ambiguity here in Oz and
Kiwiland because of the ANZACS. All ANZACS are WWI vets, but not all
WWI vets are ANZACS. (The latter date from 1915, the former could
have come in as late as 1918.) AFAIK all our ANZACS are now gone; I
would be surprised if any WWI vets are still alive, but I'm not quite
so sure about that.

>When I was a kid, my father and most of my friends' fathers were WWII
>vets, and there were some Korean War vets. The WWI vets were all really
>old guys. At least, they seemed really old to me at the time.
>
>My father in law was older than my grandmother, and was mentally alert
>right up until the time he died at (almost) 95. He had served in the
>American army in WWI and used to tell us about the war. Most of his
>stories were amusing anecdotes, like unloading a train car of supplies
>for the officer's mess and stealing a case of champagne and getting
>drunk for the first time, or making arrangements for a French farm wife
>to cook them a nice meal.
>
>There were a couple more serious stories. He had been on guard duty one
>night and was relieved by someone else. They traded places and about
>five minutes later an artillery shell went off overhead and the guy who
>had taken his place was killed by a big piece of shrapnel that went
>through his chest.
>
>One story that always choked him up was about the end of the war, when
>the armistice came into effect at 11 am. they had been taking potshots
>back and forth and someone in their outfit was shot and killed about 10
>minutes before 11. It was a real disappointment because everyone knew
>the truce was happening in a few minutes.
>
>In 2001 my wife and I were driving around France and came across the
>American War Cemetery at Meuse-Argonne and went to check it out. It was
>an eerie experience. The place is beautiful and just as we got out of
>the car the carillon started playing America The Beautiful. We thought
>hat it was just for us, and then realized it was 12 noon. We went over
>to see the grave markers and I headed off in one direction and my wife
>headed off in another direction. We were about 200 yards apart and then
>walked toward each other on an angle, and right where we met was the
>grave of a soldier from her father's outfit.... killed in action Nov. 11
>1918. We couldn't help but wonder if that was the guy that Jake had told
>us about.

Cheers, Phred.

--
LID

(Phred) wrote in
:

> In article >, atec7 7 <"atec
> > wrote:
>>Virginia Tadrzynski wrote:
>>> "Debbie" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> In Flanders fields the poppies blow
>>>> Between the crosses, row on row,
>>>> That mark our place; and in the sky
>>>> The larks, still bravely singing, fly
>>>> Scarce heard amid the guns below.
>>>>
>>>> We are the Dead. Short days ago
>>>> We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
>>>> Loved, and were loved, and now we lie
>>>> In Flanders Fields.
>>>>
>>>> Take up our quarrel with the foe:
>>>> To you from failing hands we throw
>>>> The torch; be yours to hold it high.
>>>> If ye break faith with us who die
>>>> We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
>>>> In Flanders Fields.
>>>>
>>>> - John McCrae
>>>>
>>> We went to the diner on Sunday after church and a lady from the VFW
>>> was taking a collection for the inpatients at the Veteran's Hospital.
>>> I quoted this poem and half the kids sitting around in their pajamas
>>> and cell phones, looked at me like I disturbed the peace. Maybe if
>>> more people KNEW that 11/11 at 11:11 a.m. is Armistice Day and that it
>>> has nothing to do with getting that sale on coats before the holiday
>>> rush we might be a better society.
>>>
>>Yesterday morning when I attended the local R.S.L 4 am Service I was
>>delighted to see many more youngsters attending amongst the hundreds
>>there in one word -- Respect
>
> ABC News reported up to twice the number of previous years at some
> services. Here, we had a pretty good roll up of old vets at the
> memorial for the 11 a.m. service. Mostly Vietnam vets at a guess; but
> there was one old bloke in an electric wheel-chair who *may* have been
> a survivor from WWI. If so, he'd have to be pushing towards 110; so I
> suspect he was from WWII, which would still make him at least 81/82.
>


No WW1 Vets left in Oz (or even the World IIRC).

The last of our WW1 Vets, Jack Ross, died in June this year, aged 110.

--
Peter Lucas
Brisbane
Australia


If we are not meant to eat animals,
why are they made of meat?

(Phred) wrote in
:

> In article >,
> wrote:
>>Phred wrote:
>>
>>> ABC News reported up to twice the number of previous years at some
>>> services. Here, we had a pretty good roll up of old vets at the
>>> memorial for the 11 a.m. service. Mostly Vietnam vets at a guess; but
>>> there was one old bloke in an electric wheel-chair who *may* have been
>>> a survivor from WWI. If so, he'd have to be pushing towards 110; so I
>>> suspect he was from WWII, which would still make him at least 81/82.
>>
>>We don't have any WWI vets left in Canada. The last one died this year.
>
> Yeah, I rather suspect all ours are gone now too. My uncertainty
> illustrated above is because there's a bit of ambiguity here in Oz and
> Kiwiland because of the ANZACS. All ANZACS are WWI vets, but not all
> WWI vets are ANZACS. (The latter date from 1915, the former could
> have come in as late as 1918.) AFAIK all our ANZACS are now gone; I
> would be surprised if any WWI vets are still alive, but I'm not quite
> so sure about that.
>
>>When I was a kid, my father and most of my friends' fathers were WWII
>>vets, and there were some Korean War vets. The WWI vets were all really
>>old guys. At least, they seemed really old to me at the time.
>>
>>My father in law was older than my grandmother, and was mentally alert
>>right up until the time he died at (almost) 95. He had served in the
>>American army in WWI and used to tell us about the war. Most of his
>>stories were amusing anecdotes, like unloading a train car of supplies
>>for the officer's mess and stealing a case of champagne and getting
>>drunk for the first time, or making arrangements for a French farm wife
>>to cook them a nice meal.
>>
>>There were a couple more serious stories. He had been on guard duty one
>>night and was relieved by someone else. They traded places and about
>>five minutes later an artillery shell went off overhead and the guy who
>>had taken his place was killed by a big piece of shrapnel that went
>>through his chest.
>>
>>One story that always choked him up was about the end of the war, when
>>the armistice came into effect at 11 am. they had been taking potshots
>>back and forth and someone in their outfit was shot and killed about 10
>>minutes before 11. It was a real disappointment because everyone knew
>>the truce was happening in a few minutes.
>>
>>In 2001 my wife and I were driving around France and came across the
>>American War Cemetery at Meuse-Argonne and went to check it out. It was
>>an eerie experience. The place is beautiful and just as we got out of
>>the car the carillon started playing America The Beautiful. We thought
>>hat it was just for us, and then realized it was 12 noon. We went over
>>to see the grave markers and I headed off in one direction and my wife
>>headed off in another direction. We were about 200 yards apart and then
>>walked toward each other on an angle, and right where we met was the
>>grave of a soldier from her father's outfit.... killed in action Nov. 11
>>1918. We couldn't help but wonder if that was the guy that Jake had told
>>us about.
>
> Cheers, Phred.
>


I think there would have been quite a few killed on that last day......
more's the pity.

Here's another one.......


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1918.JPG


"In memoriam. Tombe du soldat Henry J. Gollhardt mort au champ d'honneur
le 11/11/1918, en France. Cimetière américain de Romagne-sous-Montfaucon."



--
Peter Lucas
Brisbane
Australia


If we are not meant to eat animals,
why are they made of meat?

"Debbie" > wrote in message
...
> In Flanders fields the poppies blow

Today is for honoring living veterans, not memorializing the dead soldier.
Memorial Day in May is for memorializing the dead.

Ms P

"Ms P" > wrote in news:7m0md0F3f0vtcU1
@mid.individual.net:

>
> "Debbie" > wrote in message
> ...
>> In Flanders fields the poppies blow
>
> Today is for honoring living veterans, not memorializing the dead
soldier.
> Memorial Day in May is for memorializing the dead.
>
> Ms P
>
>


Sorry Ms P, but no.

Rememberance Day is Worldwide, Memorial Day is not.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remembrance_Day

"Remembrance Day also known as Poppy Day, Armistice Day (the event it
commemorates) or Veterans Day is a day to commemorate the sacrifices of
members of the armed forces and of civilians in times of war, specifically
since the First World War. It is observed on 11 November to recall the end
of World War I on that date in 1918 (major hostilities of World War I were
formally ended at the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month of 1918
with the German signing of the Armistice). The day was specifically
dedicated by King George V, on 7 November 1919, to the observance of
members of the armed forces who were killed during war;"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_Day

Memorial Day is a United States federal holiday observed on the last
Monday of May (May 25 in 2009). Formerly known as Decoration Day, it
commemorates U.S. men and women who were in the military service. First
enacted to honor Union soldiers of the American Civil War (it is
celebrated near the day of reunification after the Civil War), it was
expanded after World War I.



Poppies are used on both days.


--
Peter Lucas
Brisbane
Australia


If we are not meant to eat animals,
why are they made of meat?

"Ms P" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Debbie" > wrote in message
> ...
>> In Flanders fields the poppies blow
>
> Today is for honoring living veterans, not memorializing the dead soldier.
> Memorial Day in May is for memorializing the dead.
>

Not everywhere.

Debbie

Ms P wrote:
> "Debbie" > wrote in message
> ...
>> In Flanders fields the poppies blow
>
> Today is for honoring living veterans, not memorializing the dead
> soldier. Memorial Day in May is for memorializing the dead.
>
> Ms P

Today is historically Armistice Day, commemorating the cessation of
hostilities at 11 a.m., November 11, 1918 and in memory of those who
gave their lives during WW1.

On Nov 12, 8:15*am, Stu > wrote:

> -->No WW1 Vets left in Oz (or even the World IIRC).
> -->
> -->The last of our WW1 Vets, Jack Ross, died in June this year, aged 110.
>
> We have *one WW1 vet, he's 103 yrs.



103 years ?
2009 minus 1918 = 91
103- 91 means he was 12 in 1918
interesting

Dave wrote:

> A recent survey here asked school children what they though the message of
> "Flanders Fields" is. They almost unanimously answered "peace".
>
> While I'm sure their teachers approved the answer, it is entirely wrong.
> And the dead do not sleep, though poppies grow in Flanders Fields.

Good points. I wonder how many teachers ever gave a moment's thought to,
"Take up our quarrel with the foe" and its bizarre misinterpretation as a
plea for peace. Can't people READ?

Bob

On Nov 11, 11:16*pm, George Shirley > wrote:
> Virginia Tadrzynski wrote:
> > "Debbie" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> *In Flanders fields the poppies blow
> >> *Between the crosses, row on row,
> >> *That mark our place; and in the sky
> >> *The larks, still bravely singing, fly
> >> *Scarce heard amid the guns below.
>
> >> *We are the Dead. Short days ago
> >> *We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
> >> *Loved, and were loved, and now we lie
> >> *In Flanders Fields.
>
> >> *Take up our quarrel with the foe:
> >> *To you from failing hands we throw
> >> *The torch; be yours to hold it high.
> >> *If ye break faith with us who die
> >> *We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
> >> *In Flanders Fields.
>
> >> *- John McCrae
>
> > We went to the diner on Sunday after church and a lady from the VFW was
> > taking a collection for the inpatients at the Veteran's Hospital. *I quoted
> > this poem and half the kids sitting around in their pajamas and cell phones,
> > looked at me like I disturbed the peace. *Maybe if more people KNEW that
> > 11/11 at 11:11 a.m. is Armistice Day and that it has nothing to do with
> > getting that sale on coats before the holiday rush we might be a better
> > society.
> > -ginny
>
> My grown grandkids, all born in the eighties, don't even know about WWI,
> WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. I don't think American schools even teach
> American History anymore. That being said, all the schools in our Parish
> celebrated Veteran's Day yesterday and are closed today. This area has a
> high percentage of veterans to the regular population and there are
> multiple ceremonies going on today.

They do not get taught much in Australian schools either, and sadly I
must have failed in my grandmotherly duties to inform the grandies,
because this is the conversation I had with younger grandson yesterday
when I picked him up from school.

Me: Did you have a minute silence today for Remeberance Day?
He (with somewhat puzzled look): Yes, but I didn't remember anything!

We had a discussion of what Rememberance Day is for. His answer did
crack me up though :-)

JB
>
<snip>>
> - Show quoted text -

Golden One > wrote in news:65044125-970a-40c4-b5c6-
:

WWI,
>> WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. I don't think American schools even teach
>> American History anymore. That being said, all the schools in our
Parish
>> celebrated Veteran's Day yesterday and are closed today. This area has
a
>> high percentage of veterans to the regular population and there are
>> multiple ceremonies going on today.
>
> They do not get taught much in Australian schools either, and sadly I
> must have failed in my grandmotherly duties to inform the grandies,
> because this is the conversation I had with younger grandson yesterday
> when I picked him up from school.
>
> Me: Did you have a minute silence today for Remeberance Day?
> He (with somewhat puzzled look): Yes, but I didn't remember anything!
>
> We had a discussion of what Rememberance Day is for. His answer did
> crack me up though :-)
>


Schools here in Queensland are quite well versed on what Rememberance Day
and Anzac day are all about.

Probably because we have the majority of large Military bases.

But it should be taught in *all* schools, as they are the ones that are
going to have to keep the tradition going after we all croak it.

And being ex-Military, my family, and extended family are all very well
'up' on both days :-)

My SO's Granddad served in the Boer War (wounded) and WW1, my Granddad
served in WW1 & WW2 (wounded and POW in WW1, died shortly after WW2 from
wounds and injuries)....... and with my service, and a son who spent some
time in the Army, if we didn't know and observe these days, we should be
shot!!

So take it upon yourself JB, to teach the young'uns what it's all about.
Don't leave it to the namby-pambys who want to make sure that all the kids
know about is aboriginal 'history' :-(

--
Peter Lucas
Brisbane
Australia


If we are not meant to eat animals,
why are they made of meat?

Stu wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:17:21 GMT, PeterL > wrote:
>
> (Phred) wrote in
> :
> -->
> -->> In article >, atec7 7 <"atec
> -->> > wrote:
> -->>>Virginia Tadrzynski wrote:
> -->>>> "Debbie" > wrote in message
> -->>>> ...
> -->>>>> In Flanders fields the poppies blow
> -->>>>> Between the crosses, row on row,
> -->>>>> That mark our place; and in the sky
> -->>>>> The larks, still bravely singing, fly
> -->>>>> Scarce heard amid the guns below.
> -->>>>>
> -->>>>> We are the Dead. Short days ago
> -->>>>> We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
> -->>>>> Loved, and were loved, and now we lie
> -->>>>> In Flanders Fields.
> -->>>>>
> -->>>>> Take up our quarrel with the foe:
> -->>>>> To you from failing hands we throw
> -->>>>> The torch; be yours to hold it high.
> -->>>>> If ye break faith with us who die
> -->>>>> We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
> -->>>>> In Flanders Fields.
> -->>>>>
> -->>>>> - John McCrae
> -->>>>>
> -->>>> We went to the diner on Sunday after church and a lady from the VFW
> -->>>> was taking a collection for the inpatients at the Veteran's Hospital.
> -->>>> I quoted this poem and half the kids sitting around in their pajamas
> -->>>> and cell phones, looked at me like I disturbed the peace. Maybe if
> -->>>> more people KNEW that 11/11 at 11:11 a.m. is Armistice Day and that it
> -->>>> has nothing to do with getting that sale on coats before the holiday
> -->>>> rush we might be a better society.
> -->>>>
> -->>>Yesterday morning when I attended the local R.S.L 4 am Service I was
> -->>>delighted to see many more youngsters attending amongst the hundreds
> -->>>there in one word -- Respect
> -->>
> -->> ABC News reported up to twice the number of previous years at some
> -->> services. Here, we had a pretty good roll up of old vets at the
> -->> memorial for the 11 a.m. service. Mostly Vietnam vets at a guess; but
> -->> there was one old bloke in an electric wheel-chair who *may* have been
> -->> a survivor from WWI. If so, he'd have to be pushing towards 110; so I
> -->> suspect he was from WWII, which would still make him at least 81/82.
> -->>
> -->
> -->
> -->No WW1 Vets left in Oz (or even the World IIRC).
> -->
> -->The last of our WW1 Vets, Jack Ross, died in June this year, aged 110.
>
>
> We have one WW1 vet, he's 103 yrs.
He would have to be somewhat older ?

On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 23:06:54 -0600, Dave Balderstone wrote:

> In article >, Stu
> > wrote:
>
>> .... and to alot of people it's just a extra day off. Most twenty somethings
>> don't have a clue about what Rememberance Day is all about, and we have
>> ourselves to blame for that.
>
> Remembrance Day. You have an extra "e" in there.
>
> I read recently about school kids being asked what they though the poem
> "In Flanders Fields" meant. The majority said "peace".
>
> Obviously they either didn't read the poem, or have been so
> indoctrinated by what passes for education these days that they just
> don't understand what fighting evil means.
>
> "It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of
> the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the
> freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who
> gives us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who salutes the
> flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the
> flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag." -- Father Dennis
> Edward O'Brien, Sergeant, USMC
>

what a load of crap. the united states hasn't been in a war since wwii
(and maybe not even then) that had anything to do with 'giving us our
freedoms.' that's already handled under the constitution.

and since it was pretty damned unlikely that the nazis or the japanese
empire would conquer the u.s., likely that is crap as well. korea and
vietnam, even less so. iraq - don't make me laugh.

note that this is not to say we should not be grateful to our vets, but
preserving our rights is *not* what they were doing. we citizens have to
do that ourselves, and here in this country, not overseas.

(jeez, sounds pretty wingnutty, huh?)

your pal,
blake

In article >,
blake murphy > wrote:


> what a load of crap. the united states hasn't been in a war since wwii
> (and maybe not even then) that had anything to do with 'giving us our
> freedoms.' that's already handled under the constitution.
>
> and since it was pretty damned unlikely that the nazis or the japanese
> empire would conquer the u.s., likely that is crap as well.

Militarily or economically? Hitler intended to unify Europe and make it
a major world power. Who knows what his ultimate goal was?

> korea and
> vietnam, even less so.

Of course, the stated goal was "stopping the Red Menace". It was just a
coincidence that we pulled out of Vietnam once synthetic rubber was
invented.

> iraq - don't make me laugh.

Saddam Hussein was a big enthusiast of Hitler and plans for world
domination. With the collapse of the Soviet Union, if Saddam Hussein
had in fact conquered the Middle East, that country might have become a
world power.

--
Dan Abel
Petaluma, California USA

Dan Abel wrote:

>
> Saddam Hussein was a big enthusiast of Hitler and plans for world
> domination. With the collapse of the Soviet Union, if Saddam Hussein
> had in fact conquered the Middle East, that country might have become a
> world power.
>

There is no doubt that Saddam was a ruthless son of a bitch. He was the
head of a country full of ruthless sons of bitches. Curiously, the US
provided satellite intelligence to help Iraq "calibrate" (target)
Iranian troops for chemical weapon attacks, but when he moved on Kuwait
he was the bad guy and his forces were pretty well destroyed in Desert
Storm. Stories about WMDs were proven to have been a fabrication to
justify an invasion. He was not a threat to the US. He wasn't much of a
threat to anyone.

I have a lot of respect for the men and women in the military who are
ready and willing to fight for their country in a just war. I feel sorry
for them when they get sent to fight unjust wars.

Dan Abel wrote:
> In article >,
> blake murphy > wrote:
>
>
>> what a load of crap. the united states hasn't been in a war since wwii
>> (and maybe not even then) that had anything to do with 'giving us our
>> freedoms.' that's already handled under the constitution.
>>
>> and since it was pretty damned unlikely that the nazis or the japanese
>> empire would conquer the u.s., likely that is crap as well.
>
> Militarily or economically? Hitler intended to unify Europe and make it
> a major world power. Who knows what his ultimate goal was?
>
>> korea and
>> vietnam, even less so.
>
> Of course, the stated goal was "stopping the Red Menace". It was just a
> coincidence that we pulled out of Vietnam once synthetic rubber was
> invented.

Unfortunately for your theory synthetic rubber was invented in 1930 by
Dupont. It's called neoprene.

>
>> iraq - don't make me laugh.
>
> Saddam Hussein was a big enthusiast of Hitler and plans for world
> domination. With the collapse of the Soviet Union, if Saddam Hussein
> had in fact conquered the Middle East, that country might have become a
> world power.
>

In article >,
Dave Smith > wrote:

> Dan Abel wrote:
>
> >
> > Saddam Hussein was a big enthusiast of Hitler and plans for world
> > domination. With the collapse of the Soviet Union, if Saddam Hussein
> > had in fact conquered the Middle East, that country might have become a
> > world power.
> >
>
> There is no doubt that Saddam was a ruthless son of a bitch. He was the
> head of a country full of ruthless sons of bitches. Curiously, the US
> provided satellite intelligence to help Iraq "calibrate" (target)
> Iranian troops for chemical weapon attacks, but when he moved on Kuwait
> he was the bad guy and his forces were pretty well destroyed in Desert
> Storm. Stories about WMDs were proven to have been a fabrication to
> justify an invasion. He was not a threat to the US. He wasn't much of a
> threat to anyone.

I can't argue with your facts, but there's a long timeline he

1. Iran/Iraq. The US has always had an unwritten policy that if a
country is an enemy of our enemy, then they are our friend. When we
were unhappy with Iran, then Iraq, and Saddam Hussein, was our friend.
It's not clear whether we supplied Saddam with WOMD (those chemical
weapons), but we supplied intelligence. And of course, even though they
were military targets, a lot of civilians got killed.

2. In the time of George I, Saddam claims that he had "permission" to
invade Kuwait from the US (meaning only that we would not interfere). I
don't believe the US ever denied that. The claim was that the US
Ambassador to Iraq, April Glaspie, gave the "permission". Iraq did
invade Kuwait, and the UN approved help to Kuwait. A lot of US
resources were involved, and Iraq was not only driven out of Kuwait, but
much of the infrastructure in Iraq was destroyed. I don't believe there
was a big deal about WOMD, but it was ordered that there be UN
inspections to make sure that Iraq didn't acquire any.

3. In the time of George II, Iraq was invaded again, this time upon the
pretense that there were WOMD.

--
Dan Abel
Petaluma, California USA

blake murphy wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 23:06:54 -0600, Dave Balderstone wrote:
>
>> In article >, Stu
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> .... and to alot of people it's just a extra day off. Most twenty somethings
>>> don't have a clue about what Rememberance Day is all about, and we have
>>> ourselves to blame for that.
>> Remembrance Day. You have an extra "e" in there.
>>
>> I read recently about school kids being asked what they though the poem
>> "In Flanders Fields" meant. The majority said "peace".
>>
>> Obviously they either didn't read the poem, or have been so
>> indoctrinated by what passes for education these days that they just
>> don't understand what fighting evil means.
>>
>> "It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of
>> the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the
>> freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who
>> gives us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who salutes the
>> flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the
>> flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag." -- Father Dennis
>> Edward O'Brien, Sergeant, USMC
>>
>
> what a load of crap. the united states hasn't been in a war since wwii
> (and maybe not even then) that had anything to do with 'giving us our
> freedoms.' that's already handled under the constitution.
>
> and since it was pretty damned unlikely that the nazis or the japanese
> empire would conquer the u.s., likely that is crap as well. korea and
> vietnam, even less so. iraq - don't make me laugh.
>
> note that this is not to say we should not be grateful to our vets, but
> preserving our rights is *not* what they were doing. we citizens have to
> do that ourselves, and here in this country, not overseas.
>
> (jeez, sounds pretty wingnutty, huh?)
>
> your pal,
> blake

You miss the whole point. None of these freedoms would be available to
you if it were not for the soldiers/sailors/airmen who preserve and
defend this country and its constitution from people who would take all
the liberties and property you have.

The fact that we have never had to defend the mainland USA from forces
that would occupy it only serves to prove that the threat of action by
our military (to defend the USA) has been effective.

Iraq, Vietnam, Korea etc are totally irrelevant to Sgt. O'Brien's statement.

EJ in NJ

EJ Willson wrote:
> blake murphy wrote:
>> On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 23:06:54 -0600, Dave Balderstone wrote:
>>
>>> In article >, Stu
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> .... and to alot of people it's just a extra day off. Most twenty
>>>> somethings
>>>> don't have a clue about what Rememberance Day is all about, and we have
>>>> ourselves to blame for that.
>>> Remembrance Day. You have an extra "e" in there.
>>>
>>> I read recently about school kids being asked what they though the poem
>>> "In Flanders Fields" meant. The majority said "peace".
>>>
>>> Obviously they either didn't read the poem, or have been so
>>> indoctrinated by what passes for education these days that they just
>>> don't understand what fighting evil means.
>>>
>>> "It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of
>>> the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the
>>> freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who
>>> gives us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who salutes the
>>> flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the
>>> flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag." -- Father Dennis
>>> Edward O'Brien, Sergeant, USMC
>>
>> what a load of crap. the united states hasn't been in a war since wwii
>> (and maybe not even then) that had anything to do with 'giving us our
>> freedoms.' that's already handled under the constitution.
>>
>> and since it was pretty damned unlikely that the nazis or the japanese
>> empire would conquer the u.s., likely that is crap as well. korea and
>> vietnam, even less so. iraq - don't make me laugh.
>>
>> note that this is not to say we should not be grateful to our vets, but
>> preserving our rights is *not* what they were doing. we citizens have to
>> do that ourselves, and here in this country, not overseas.
>>
>> (jeez, sounds pretty wingnutty, huh?)
>>
>> your pal,
>> blake
>
> You miss the whole point. None of these freedoms would be available to
> you if it were not for the soldiers/sailors/airmen who preserve and
> defend this country and its constitution from people who would take all
> the liberties and property you have.
>
> The fact that we have never had to defend the mainland USA from forces
> that would occupy it only serves to prove that the threat of action by
> our military (to defend the USA) has been effective.
>
> Iraq, Vietnam, Korea etc are totally irrelevant to Sgt. O'Brien's
> statement.
>
> EJ in NJ

You know, I have to sigh because you have a somewhat valid point. But
you are also wrong.

Just because you are somewhat right in regards to "why" people serve,
does not validate you or your thought process

People serve for a number of reasons, and likely it is a combination of
reasons.

Point is? Unless *you* serve, you have no valid points to make as to the
motivations as to why someone serves..

Being a ponce, is just that.

That is you.

EJ Willson wrote:
> blake murphy wrote:
>> On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 23:06:54 -0600, Dave Balderstone wrote:
>>
>>> In article >, Stu
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> .... and to alot of people it's just a extra day off. Most twenty
>>>> somethings
>>>> don't have a clue about what Rememberance Day is all about, and we have
>>>> ourselves to blame for that.
>>> Remembrance Day. You have an extra "e" in there.
>>>
>>> I read recently about school kids being asked what they though the poem
>>> "In Flanders Fields" meant. The majority said "peace".
>>>
>>> Obviously they either didn't read the poem, or have been so
>>> indoctrinated by what passes for education these days that they just
>>> don't understand what fighting evil means.
>>>
>>> "It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of
>>> the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the
>>> freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who
>>> gives us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who salutes the
>>> flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the
>>> flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag." -- Father Dennis
>>> Edward O'Brien, Sergeant, USMC
>>
>> what a load of crap. the united states hasn't been in a war since wwii
>> (and maybe not even then) that had anything to do with 'giving us our
>> freedoms.' that's already handled under the constitution.
>>
>> and since it was pretty damned unlikely that the nazis or the japanese
>> empire would conquer the u.s., likely that is crap as well. korea and
>> vietnam, even less so. iraq - don't make me laugh.
>>
>> note that this is not to say we should not be grateful to our vets, but
>> preserving our rights is *not* what they were doing. we citizens have to
>> do that ourselves, and here in this country, not overseas.
>>
>> (jeez, sounds pretty wingnutty, huh?)
>>
>> your pal,
>> blake
>
> You miss the whole point. None of these freedoms would be available to
> you if it were not for the soldiers/sailors/airmen who preserve and
> defend this country and its constitution from people who would take all
> the liberties and property you have.
>
> The fact that we have never had to defend the mainland USA from forces
> that would occupy it only serves to prove that the threat of action by
> our military (to defend the USA) has been effective.
>
> Iraq, Vietnam, Korea etc are totally irrelevant to Sgt. O'Brien's
> statement.
>
> EJ in NJ

Sorry EJ. I was irritated, but read it from your reply. I was really
irritated at Murphy. I missed the start/stop of the posts.

Blake -

Feel free to call me a "wingnut". I will absorb that as something people
not willing to put their life on the line to preserve the freedoms of
all, are the same people that I protected when I served. I have zero
issue with your opinion, but I do consider it rather lame.

If someone else is willing to put their life on the line for you to have
a verbal opinion, what does that make them?

I would never have an issue with you having a "ponce" opinion about
anything.

I consider your stance that my protecting that right and meaning
nothing, a sore point.

Next you will say that the jews have nothing to complain about in regard
to WWII.

Defending the homeland? That is your point?

You are a ponce.

Just because we have not been invaded is not an excuse for not taking
responsibility for out actions. Nor is it a good excuse for not taking
action when we were isolationists.

We all have to be responsible for our actions, or our inactivity.

That includes you.

You lost my respect today.

I know that means nothing to you... but it is still a fact.

Stu wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 01:14:24 -0500, Bob Muncie > wrote:
>
> -->EJ Willson wrote:
> -->> blake murphy wrote:
> -->>> On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 23:06:54 -0600, Dave Balderstone wrote:
> -->>>
> -->>>> In article >, Stu
> -->>>> > wrote:
> -->>>>
> -->>>>> .... and to alot of people it's just a extra day off. Most twenty
> -->>>>> somethings
> -->>>>> don't have a clue about what Rememberance Day is all about, and we have
> -->>>>> ourselves to blame for that.
> -->>>> Remembrance Day. You have an extra "e" in there.
> -->>>>
> -->>>> I read recently about school kids being asked what they though the poem
> -->>>> "In Flanders Fields" meant. The majority said "peace".
> -->>>>
> -->>>> Obviously they either didn't read the poem, or have been so
> -->>>> indoctrinated by what passes for education these days that they just
> -->>>> don't understand what fighting evil means.
> -->>>>
> -->>>> "It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of
> -->>>> the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the
> -->>>> freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who
> -->>>> gives us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who salutes the
> -->>>> flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the
> -->>>> flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag." -- Father Dennis
> -->>>> Edward O'Brien, Sergeant, USMC
> -->>>
> -->>> what a load of crap. the united states hasn't been in a war since wwii
> -->>> (and maybe not even then) that had anything to do with 'giving us our
> -->>> freedoms.' that's already handled under the constitution.
> -->>>
> -->>> and since it was pretty damned unlikely that the nazis or the japanese
> -->>> empire would conquer the u.s., likely that is crap as well. korea and
> -->>> vietnam, even less so. iraq - don't make me laugh.
> -->>>
> -->>> note that this is not to say we should not be grateful to our vets, but
> -->>> preserving our rights is *not* what they were doing. we citizens have to
> -->>> do that ourselves, and here in this country, not overseas.
> -->>>
> -->>> (jeez, sounds pretty wingnutty, huh?)
> -->>>
> -->>> your pal,
> -->>> blake
> -->>
> -->> You miss the whole point. None of these freedoms would be available to
> -->> you if it were not for the soldiers/sailors/airmen who preserve and
> -->> defend this country and its constitution from people who would take all
> -->> the liberties and property you have.
> -->>
> -->> The fact that we have never had to defend the mainland USA from forces
> -->> that would occupy it only serves to prove that the threat of action by
> -->> our military (to defend the USA) has been effective.
> -->>
> -->> Iraq, Vietnam, Korea etc are totally irrelevant to Sgt. O'Brien's
> -->> statement.
> -->>
> -->> EJ in NJ
> -->
> -->Sorry EJ. I was irritated, but read it from your reply. I was really
> -->irritated at Murphy. I missed the start/stop of the posts.
> -->
> -->Blake -
> -->
> -->Feel free to call me a "wingnut". I will absorb that as something people
> -->not willing to put their life on the line to preserve the freedoms of
> -->all, are the same people that I protected when I served. I have zero
> -->issue with your opinion, but I do consider it rather lame.
> -->
> -->If someone else is willing to put their life on the line for you to have
> -->a verbal opinion, what does that make them?
> -->
> -->I would never have an issue with you having a "ponce" opinion about
> -->anything.
> -->
> -->I consider your stance that my protecting that right and meaning
> -->nothing, a sore point.
> -->
> -->Next you will say that the jews have nothing to complain about in regard
> -->to WWII.
> -->
> -->Defending the homeland? That is your point?
> -->
> -->You are a ponce.
> -->
> -->Just because we have not been invaded is not an excuse for not taking
> -->responsibility for out actions. Nor is it a good excuse for not taking
> -->action when we were isolationists.
> -->
> -->We all have to be responsible for our actions, or our inactivity.
> -->
> -->That includes you.
> -->
> -->You lost my respect today.
> -->
> -->I know that means nothing to you... but it is still a fact.
>
> You join because it's your choice to serve your country and protect
> your loved ones. It being a career is secondary.

ISTM that some of you are blaming the US military for these wars
(Vietnam, Iraq, etc.) Am I correct?

EJ in NJ

EJ Willson wrote:
> Stu wrote:
>> On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 01:14:24 -0500, Bob Muncie >
>> wrote:
>>
>> -->EJ Willson wrote:
>> -->> blake murphy wrote:
>> -->>> On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 23:06:54 -0600, Dave Balderstone wrote:
>> -->>>
>> -->>>> In article >, Stu
>> -->>>> > wrote:
>> -->>>>
>> -->>>>> .... and to alot of people it's just a extra day off. Most
>> twenty -->>>>> somethings
>> -->>>>> don't have a clue about what Rememberance Day is all about,
>> and we have
>> -->>>>> ourselves to blame for that.
>> -->>>> Remembrance Day. You have an extra "e" in there.
>> -->>>>
>> -->>>> I read recently about school kids being asked what they though
>> the poem
>> -->>>> "In Flanders Fields" meant. The majority said "peace".
>> -->>>>
>> -->>>> Obviously they either didn't read the poem, or have been so
>> -->>>> indoctrinated by what passes for education these days that they
>> just
>> -->>>> don't understand what fighting evil means.
>> -->>>>
>> -->>>> "It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the
>> freedom of
>> -->>>> the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the
>> -->>>> freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer,
>> who
>> -->>>> gives us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who
>> salutes the
>> -->>>> flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped
>> by the
>> -->>>> flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag." -- Father Dennis
>> -->>>> Edward O'Brien, Sergeant, USMC
>> -->>>
>> -->>> what a load of crap. the united states hasn't been in a war
>> since wwii
>> -->>> (and maybe not even then) that had anything to do with 'giving
>> us our
>> -->>> freedoms.' that's already handled under the constitution.
>> -->>>
>> -->>> and since it was pretty damned unlikely that the nazis or the
>> japanese
>> -->>> empire would conquer the u.s., likely that is crap as well.
>> korea and
>> -->>> vietnam, even less so. iraq - don't make me laugh.
>> -->>>
>> -->>> note that this is not to say we should not be grateful to our
>> vets, but
>> -->>> preserving our rights is *not* what they were doing. we
>> citizens have to
>> -->>> do that ourselves, and here in this country, not overseas.
>> -->>>
>> -->>> (jeez, sounds pretty wingnutty, huh?)
>> -->>>
>> -->>> your pal,
>> -->>> blake
>> -->> -->> You miss the whole point. None of these freedoms would be
>> available to -->> you if it were not for the soldiers/sailors/airmen
>> who preserve and -->> defend this country and its constitution from
>> people who would take all -->> the liberties and property you have.
>> -->> -->> The fact that we have never had to defend the mainland USA
>> from forces -->> that would occupy it only serves to prove that the
>> threat of action by -->> our military (to defend the USA) has been
>> effective.
>> -->> -->> Iraq, Vietnam, Korea etc are totally irrelevant to Sgt.
>> O'Brien's -->> statement.
>> -->> -->> EJ in NJ
>> -->
>> -->Sorry EJ. I was irritated, but read it from your reply. I was
>> really -->irritated at Murphy. I missed the start/stop of the posts.
>> -->
>> -->Blake -
>> -->
>> -->Feel free to call me a "wingnut". I will absorb that as something
>> people -->not willing to put their life on the line to preserve the
>> freedoms of -->all, are the same people that I protected when I
>> served. I have zero -->issue with your opinion, but I do consider it
>> rather lame.
>> -->
>> -->If someone else is willing to put their life on the line for you to
>> have -->a verbal opinion, what does that make them?
>> -->
>> -->I would never have an issue with you having a "ponce" opinion about
>> -->anything.
>> -->
>> -->I consider your stance that my protecting that right and meaning
>> -->nothing, a sore point.
>> -->
>> -->Next you will say that the jews have nothing to complain about in
>> regard -->to WWII.
>> -->
>> -->Defending the homeland? That is your point?
>> -->
>> -->You are a ponce.
>> -->
>> -->Just because we have not been invaded is not an excuse for not
>> taking -->responsibility for out actions. Nor is it a good excuse for
>> not taking -->action when we were isolationists.
>> -->
>> -->We all have to be responsible for our actions, or our inactivity.
>> -->
>> -->That includes you.
>> -->
>> -->You lost my respect today.
>> -->
>> -->I know that means nothing to you... but it is still a fact.
>>
>> You join because it's your choice to serve your country and protect
>> your loved ones. It being a career is secondary.
>
> ISTM that some of you are blaming the US military for these wars
> (Vietnam, Iraq, etc.) Am I correct?
>
> EJ in NJ

I don't consider that a correct assessment. But as long as you are
thinking about it, it is a step forward.

Bob

Stu wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 01:14:24 -0500, Bob Muncie > wrote:
>
> -->EJ Willson wrote:
> -->> blake murphy wrote:
> -->>> On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 23:06:54 -0600, Dave Balderstone wrote:
> -->>>
> -->>>> In article >, Stu
> -->>>> > wrote:
> -->>>>
> -->>>>> .... and to alot of people it's just a extra day off. Most twenty
> -->>>>> somethings
> -->>>>> don't have a clue about what Rememberance Day is all about, and we have
> -->>>>> ourselves to blame for that.
> -->>>> Remembrance Day. You have an extra "e" in there.
> -->>>>
> -->>>> I read recently about school kids being asked what they though the poem
> -->>>> "In Flanders Fields" meant. The majority said "peace".
> -->>>>
> -->>>> Obviously they either didn't read the poem, or have been so
> -->>>> indoctrinated by what passes for education these days that they just
> -->>>> don't understand what fighting evil means.
> -->>>>
> -->>>> "It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of
> -->>>> the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the
> -->>>> freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who
> -->>>> gives us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who salutes the
> -->>>> flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the
> -->>>> flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag." -- Father Dennis
> -->>>> Edward O'Brien, Sergeant, USMC
> -->>>
> -->>> what a load of crap. the united states hasn't been in a war since wwii
> -->>> (and maybe not even then) that had anything to do with 'giving us our
> -->>> freedoms.' that's already handled under the constitution.
> -->>>
> -->>> and since it was pretty damned unlikely that the nazis or the japanese
> -->>> empire would conquer the u.s., likely that is crap as well. korea and
> -->>> vietnam, even less so. iraq - don't make me laugh.
> -->>>
> -->>> note that this is not to say we should not be grateful to our vets, but
> -->>> preserving our rights is *not* what they were doing. we citizens have to
> -->>> do that ourselves, and here in this country, not overseas.
> -->>>
> -->>> (jeez, sounds pretty wingnutty, huh?)
> -->>>
> -->>> your pal,
> -->>> blake
> -->>
> -->> You miss the whole point. None of these freedoms would be available to
> -->> you if it were not for the soldiers/sailors/airmen who preserve and
> -->> defend this country and its constitution from people who would take all
> -->> the liberties and property you have.
> -->>
> -->> The fact that we have never had to defend the mainland USA from forces
> -->> that would occupy it only serves to prove that the threat of action by
> -->> our military (to defend the USA) has been effective.
> -->>
> -->> Iraq, Vietnam, Korea etc are totally irrelevant to Sgt. O'Brien's
> -->> statement.
> -->>
> -->> EJ in NJ
> -->
> -->Sorry EJ. I was irritated, but read it from your reply. I was really
> -->irritated at Murphy. I missed the start/stop of the posts.
> -->
> -->Blake -
> -->
> -->Feel free to call me a "wingnut". I will absorb that as something people
> -->not willing to put their life on the line to preserve the freedoms of
> -->all, are the same people that I protected when I served. I have zero
> -->issue with your opinion, but I do consider it rather lame.
> -->
> -->If someone else is willing to put their life on the line for you to have
> -->a verbal opinion, what does that make them?
> -->
> -->I would never have an issue with you having a "ponce" opinion about
> -->anything.
> -->
> -->I consider your stance that my protecting that right and meaning
> -->nothing, a sore point.
> -->
> -->Next you will say that the jews have nothing to complain about in regard
> -->to WWII.
> -->
> -->Defending the homeland? That is your point?
> -->
> -->You are a ponce.
> -->
> -->Just because we have not been invaded is not an excuse for not taking
> -->responsibility for out actions. Nor is it a good excuse for not taking
> -->action when we were isolationists.
> -->
> -->We all have to be responsible for our actions, or our inactivity.
> -->
> -->That includes you.
> -->
> -->You lost my respect today.
> -->
> -->I know that means nothing to you... but it is still a fact.
>
> You join because it's your choice to serve your country and protect
> your loved ones. It being a career is secondary.

I so much agree with that thought. That is why at the the ten year mark,
I became a civilian again.

I felt it would be a negative for my family to remain in the military.
If I did not have my own family at that time to be concerned with, I
would have stayed in the military until retirement.

I liked the lifestyle, I believed in the reasons why I was there, and
even if the administrations were sometimes hard to appreciate, I loved
my country. Not the administration running it.

And I did make the original choice. No one forced me to. I also do not
regret having made that choice.

Bob

On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 11:09:40 -0800, Dan Abel wrote:

> In article >,
> blake murphy > wrote:
>
>> what a load of crap. the united states hasn't been in a war since wwii
>> (and maybe not even then) that had anything to do with 'giving us our
>> freedoms.' that's already handled under the constitution.
>>
>> and since it was pretty damned unlikely that the nazis or the japanese
>> empire would conquer the u.s., likely that is crap as well.
>
> Militarily or economically? Hitler intended to unify Europe and make it
> a major world power. Who knows what his ultimate goal was?
>
>> korea and
>> vietnam, even less so.
>
> Of course, the stated goal was "stopping the Red Menace". It was just a
> coincidence that we pulled out of Vietnam once synthetic rubber was
> invented.
>
>> iraq - don't make me laugh.
>
> Saddam Hussein was a big enthusiast of Hitler and plans for world
> domination. With the collapse of the Soviet Union, if Saddam Hussein
> had in fact conquered the Middle East, that country might have become a
> world power.

sounds like a lot of 'ifs' and 'mights' to me - most of which have been
disproven in the event. the dominoes did not collapse and obliterate
california, and hussein turns out to have been in no position to conquer
the middle east.

note again i'm not saying anything about whether those conflicts were
worthwhile (though i think they were not), but that since they were not
some kind to existence of the u.s., in no way were about 'giving us our
freedoms.'

your pal,
blake

On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 23:42:42 -0500, EJ Willson wrote:

> blake murphy wrote:
>> On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 23:06:54 -0600, Dave Balderstone wrote:
>>
>>> In article >, Stu
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> .... and to alot of people it's just a extra day off. Most twenty somethings
>>>> don't have a clue about what Rememberance Day is all about, and we have
>>>> ourselves to blame for that.
>>> Remembrance Day. You have an extra "e" in there.
>>>
>>> I read recently about school kids being asked what they though the poem
>>> "In Flanders Fields" meant. The majority said "peace".
>>>
>>> Obviously they either didn't read the poem, or have been so
>>> indoctrinated by what passes for education these days that they just
>>> don't understand what fighting evil means.
>>>
>>> "It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of
>>> the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the
>>> freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who
>>> gives us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who salutes the
>>> flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the
>>> flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag." -- Father Dennis
>>> Edward O'Brien, Sergeant, USMC
>>>
>>
>> what a load of crap. the united states hasn't been in a war since wwii
>> (and maybe not even then) that had anything to do with 'giving us our
>> freedoms.' that's already handled under the constitution.
>>
>> and since it was pretty damned unlikely that the nazis or the japanese
>> empire would conquer the u.s., likely that is crap as well. korea and
>> vietnam, even less so. iraq - don't make me laugh.
>>
>> note that this is not to say we should not be grateful to our vets, but
>> preserving our rights is *not* what they were doing. we citizens have to
>> do that ourselves, and here in this country, not overseas.
>>
>> (jeez, sounds pretty wingnutty, huh?)
>>
>> your pal,
>> blake
>
> You miss the whole point. None of these freedoms would be available to
> you if it were not for the soldiers/sailors/airmen who preserve and
> defend this country and its constitution from people who would take all
> the liberties and property you have.
>
> The fact that we have never had to defend the mainland USA from forces
> that would occupy it only serves to prove that the threat of action by
> our military (to defend the USA) has been effective.

the fact that there are no dragons here proves that my dragon-repelling
rock is effective.

blake

On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 01:14:24 -0500, Bob Muncie wrote:

> EJ Willson wrote:
>> blake murphy wrote:
>>> On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 23:06:54 -0600, Dave Balderstone wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of
>>>> the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the
>>>> freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who
>>>> gives us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who salutes the
>>>> flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the
>>>> flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag." -- Father Dennis
>>>> Edward O'Brien, Sergeant, USMC
>>>
>>> what a load of crap. the united states hasn't been in a war since wwii
>>> (and maybe not even then) that had anything to do with 'giving us our
>>> freedoms.' that's already handled under the constitution.
>>>
>>> and since it was pretty damned unlikely that the nazis or the japanese
>>> empire would conquer the u.s., likely that is crap as well. korea and
>>> vietnam, even less so. iraq - don't make me laugh.
>>>
>>> note that this is not to say we should not be grateful to our vets, but
>>> preserving our rights is *not* what they were doing. we citizens have to
>>> do that ourselves, and here in this country, not overseas.
>>>
>>> (jeez, sounds pretty wingnutty, huh?)
>>>
>>> your pal,
>>> blake
>>
>> You miss the whole point. None of these freedoms would be available to
>> you if it were not for the soldiers/sailors/airmen who preserve and
>> defend this country and its constitution from people who would take all
>> the liberties and property you have.
>>
>> The fact that we have never had to defend the mainland USA from forces
>> that would occupy it only serves to prove that the threat of action by
>> our military (to defend the USA) has been effective.
>>
>> Iraq, Vietnam, Korea etc are totally irrelevant to Sgt. O'Brien's
>> statement.
>>
>> EJ in NJ
>
> Sorry EJ. I was irritated, but read it from your reply. I was really
> irritated at Murphy. I missed the start/stop of the posts.
>
> Blake -
>
> Feel free to call me a "wingnut". I will absorb that as something people
> not willing to put their life on the line to preserve the freedoms of
> all, are the same people that I protected when I served. I have zero
> issue with your opinion, but I do consider it rather lame.
>
> If someone else is willing to put their life on the line for you to have
> a verbal opinion, what does that make them?
>

then you don't understand my point. none of those conflicts were to
prevent some power from conquering the u.s., so my freedom of speech is not
an issue.

> I would never have an issue with you having a "ponce" opinion about
> anything.
>
> I consider your stance that my protecting that right and meaning
> nothing, a sore point.
>
> Next you will say that the jews have nothing to complain about in regard
> to WWII.

contrary to u.s. government policy, 'jews' are not the united states.
there are lots of other people as well.

>
> Defending the homeland? That is your point?
>
> You are a ponce.>

yeah i guess my points make me a queer.

> Just because we have not been invaded is not an excuse for not taking
> responsibility for out actions. Nor is it a good excuse for not taking
> action when we were isolationists.
>
> We all have to be responsible for our actions, or our inactivity.
>
> That includes you.
>
> You lost my respect today.

ohnoes!!!

>
> I know that means nothing to you... but it is still a fact.

you couldn't argue your way out of a paper bag. guess that make you some
kind of fairy faggot mincer, huh?

blake

blake murphy wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 23:42:42 -0500, EJ Willson wrote:
>
>> blake murphy wrote:
>>> On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 23:06:54 -0600, Dave Balderstone wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article >, Stu
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> .... and to alot of people it's just a extra day off. Most twenty somethings
>>>>> don't have a clue about what Rememberance Day is all about, and we have
>>>>> ourselves to blame for that.
>>>> Remembrance Day. You have an extra "e" in there.
>>>>
>>>> I read recently about school kids being asked what they though the poem
>>>> "In Flanders Fields" meant. The majority said "peace".
>>>>
>>>> Obviously they either didn't read the poem, or have been so
>>>> indoctrinated by what passes for education these days that they just
>>>> don't understand what fighting evil means.
>>>>
>>>> "It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of
>>>> the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the
>>>> freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who
>>>> gives us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who salutes the
>>>> flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the
>>>> flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag." -- Father Dennis
>>>> Edward O'Brien, Sergeant, USMC
>>>>
>>> what a load of crap. the united states hasn't been in a war since wwii
>>> (and maybe not even then) that had anything to do with 'giving us our
>>> freedoms.' that's already handled under the constitution.
>>>
>>> and since it was pretty damned unlikely that the nazis or the japanese
>>> empire would conquer the u.s., likely that is crap as well. korea and
>>> vietnam, even less so. iraq - don't make me laugh.
>>>
>>> note that this is not to say we should not be grateful to our vets, but
>>> preserving our rights is *not* what they were doing. we citizens have to
>>> do that ourselves, and here in this country, not overseas.
>>>
>>> (jeez, sounds pretty wingnutty, huh?)
>>>
>>> your pal,
>>> blake
>> You miss the whole point. None of these freedoms would be available to
>> you if it were not for the soldiers/sailors/airmen who preserve and
>> defend this country and its constitution from people who would take all
>> the liberties and property you have.
>>
>> The fact that we have never had to defend the mainland USA from forces
>> that would occupy it only serves to prove that the threat of action by
>> our military (to defend the USA) has been effective.
>
> the fact that there are no dragons here proves that my dragon-repelling
> rock is effective.
>
> blake

That was actually funny. Can you do it again? And no, I did not miss
your point earlier. I just have a difference in opinion. But I was a bit
stupid with the loss of respect statement. I actually evaluate what you
have to say. I guess that means I actually respect you. Just don't tell
anybody.

Bob