Ellen K. > wrote:
>Based on the above I will not be including any grain carbs in future
>breakfasts. With just the cheese and veggies I would NEVER get up to 176,
>and usually by 90 minutes I am at or below the pre-breakfast value.
>So, valuable experiment, I learned more about how my body works.
>Comments welcome.

What's the highest medically tolerated BG value for you to live without future
complications? From your other posts about Shabat bread, hand washing and
prayer recitation, I'd say your body is telling you that it can barely tolerate
any grains. Either you resign yourself to high BG values or give up grains in
all forms. I understand that as an observant Jew, this is difficult for you to
do. But, it's slightly heartbreaking to see you trying to bargain this much
with your body.

Orlando

"Orlando Enrique Fiol" > wrote in message
. ..
> Ellen K. > wrote:
>>Based on the above I will not be including any grain carbs in future
>>breakfasts. With just the cheese and veggies I would NEVER get up to 176,
>>and usually by 90 minutes I am at or below the pre-breakfast value.
>>So, valuable experiment, I learned more about how my body works.
>>Comments welcome.
>
> What's the highest medically tolerated BG value for you to live without
> future
> complications?

According to several sources, damage starts at 140.

> From your other posts about Shabat bread, hand washing and
> prayer recitation, I'd say your body is telling you that it can barely
> tolerate
> any grains.

It's true that I don't tolerate grains well. Based on this morning's test,
I would say I can't tolerate them at all in the morning. However, late in
the day I can eat a low-carb tortilla (which does contain grain), (it has 10
gm carbs of which 7 are fiber, so 3 gm net carbs) with no problem.

> Either you resign yourself to high BG values or give up grains in
> all forms. I understand that as an observant Jew, this is difficult for
> you to
> do. But, it's slightly heartbreaking to see you trying to bargain this
> much
> with your body.

The half-a-rye-matzo for the sabbath meals does not do what the quarter did
this morning, but it doesn't seem to be completely benign either, although
it's a little hard to separate out the effects. For example, usually I go
to sleep earlier on Friday night than during the week, so more time elapses
until I check my FBG Saturday morning... so it may be higher just because
more time has elapsed, not because I ate the half a matzo the night before.
What I am thinking to try next is to come up with a recipe that will still
count as bread for the purposes discussed in the thread about eating bread
on the sabbath, but have the same BG effect as the low-carb tortillas. I
need to get clearer on a few technical issues such as what percentage of
such a recipe has to be FLOUR from one of the five specified grains, e.g.
would "oat fiber" (anybody know if this is the same as oat bran???) count
the same as oat flour, etc. I think if oat fiber counts the same as oat
flour I could create something that would meet both my religious and health
needs.

>
> Orlando

Please forgive me if this is presumptuous, but I always had the impression
that the dietary and other rules of Jewish observance were waived in cases
where health or humanitarian concerns were present. Pregnant women, et al?

It is not required to eat bread at all, so there is no rule that needs to be
waived.

The issue is that certain prayers are only said if one eats within a certain
timeframe a defined minimum quantity of something qualifying as bread, and
since I find those prayers very meaningful, I am trying to find a way to be
able to eat something that qualifies as bread, in a sufficient quantity to
be able to say those prayers, at least at the sabbath meals, because I find
that enhances my sabbath experience.

I did not raise this issue to the group, I feel it is not really in place
here. I bring my DIABETES questions here, not any religious questions I
might have.

What happened was that since I had briefly discussed this previously with
Wendy, in a post to her I mentioned as an *aside* to the breakfast
discussion that it would be great if the 1/4 matzo worked for breakfast
because then I would have a use for all the half matzos left over from the
sabbath meals. Another poster jumped into the conversation and made a
number of inaccurate statements which I felt obliged to correct, resulting
in several more posts.

At this point I would be much happier to have omitted the aside. As noted
above, this is a DIABETES group. Everyone here has his or her own set of
beliefs and practices, and IMO that is as it should be.

"Janet" > wrote in message
...
> Please forgive me if this is presumptuous, but I always had the impression
> that the dietary and other rules of Jewish observance were waived in cases
> where health or humanitarian concerns were present. Pregnant women, et al?
>
>

Ellen K. > wrote:
>It is not required to eat bread at all, so there is no rule that needs to be
>waived.

So what's troubling you?

>The issue is that certain prayers are only said if one eats within a certain
>timeframe a defined minimum quantity of something qualifying as bread, and
>since I find those prayers very meaningful, I am trying to find a way to be
>able to eat something that qualifies as bread, in a sufficient quantity to
>be able to say those prayers, at least at the sabbath meals, because I find
>that enhances my sabbath experience.

Regardless of what any rabbi tells you, God understands your intent behind your
prayers and will not consider them meaningless if they are said without bread.
I am not blaspheming your religion by saying this. On the contrary, I'm
encouraging you to become more mystical and less legalistic.

>I did not raise this issue to the group, I feel it is not really in place
>here. I bring my DIABETES questions here, not any religious questions I
>might have.

I only responded to this issue because you are clearly agitated about the nexus
between religious observance and your diabetic needs. No one is going to punish
you if you say sabbath prayers without eating something that qualifies as
bread.

>What happened was that since I had briefly discussed this previously with
>Wendy, in a post to her I mentioned as an *aside* to the breakfast
>discussion that it would be great if the 1/4 matzo worked for breakfast
>because then I would have a use for all the half matzos left over from the
>sabbath meals. Another poster jumped into the conversation and made a
>number of inaccurate statements which I felt obliged to correct, resulting
>in several more posts.

Is there any way for you to celebrate the sabbath with more people so that
there's less leftover bread?

>At this point I would be much happier to have omitted the aside. As noted
>above, this is a DIABETES group. Everyone here has his or her own set of
>beliefs and practices, and IMO that is as it should be.

If someone's beliefs and practices included raping, killing or maming, I'd
speak out against them. In your case, I believe that this particularly
legalistic issue is inhibiting your enjoyment of what should be meaningful
Jewish prayer and sabbath celebration.

Orlando

Christians get to define Christianity, Jews get to define Judaism.

I'm sure you wouldn't like it if I criticized your religion from the point
of view of mine.

"Orlando Enrique Fiol" > wrote in message
. ..
> Ellen K. > wrote:
>>It is not required to eat bread at all, so there is no rule that needs to
>>be
>>waived.
>
> So what's troubling you?
>
>>The issue is that certain prayers are only said if one eats within a
>>certain
>>timeframe a defined minimum quantity of something qualifying as bread, and
>>since I find those prayers very meaningful, I am trying to find a way to
>>be
>>able to eat something that qualifies as bread, in a sufficient quantity to
>>be able to say those prayers, at least at the sabbath meals, because I
>>find
>>that enhances my sabbath experience.
>
> Regardless of what any rabbi tells you, God understands your intent behind
> your
> prayers and will not consider them meaningless if they are said without
> bread.
> I am not blaspheming your religion by saying this. On the contrary, I'm
> encouraging you to become more mystical and less legalistic.
>
>>I did not raise this issue to the group, I feel it is not really in place
>>here. I bring my DIABETES questions here, not any religious questions I
>>might have.
>
> I only responded to this issue because you are clearly agitated about the
> nexus
> between religious observance and your diabetic needs. No one is going to
> punish
> you if you say sabbath prayers without eating something that qualifies as
> bread.
>
>>What happened was that since I had briefly discussed this previously with
>>Wendy, in a post to her I mentioned as an *aside* to the breakfast
>>discussion that it would be great if the 1/4 matzo worked for breakfast
>>because then I would have a use for all the half matzos left over from the
>>sabbath meals. Another poster jumped into the conversation and made a
>>number of inaccurate statements which I felt obliged to correct, resulting
>>in several more posts.
>
> Is there any way for you to celebrate the sabbath with more people so that
> there's less leftover bread?
>
>>At this point I would be much happier to have omitted the aside. As noted
>>above, this is a DIABETES group. Everyone here has his or her own set of
>>beliefs and practices, and IMO that is as it should be.
>
> If someone's beliefs and practices included raping, killing or maming, I'd
> speak out against them. In your case, I believe that this particularly
> legalistic issue is inhibiting your enjoyment of what should be meaningful
> Jewish prayer and sabbath celebration.
>
> Orlando

"Ellen K." wrote

> It is not required to eat bread at all, so there is no rule that needs to
> be waived.

> The issue is that certain prayers are only said if one eats within a
> certain timeframe a defined minimum quantity of something qualifying as
> bread, and since I find those prayers very meaningful, I am trying to find
> a way to be able to eat something that qualifies as bread, in a sufficient
> quantity to be able to say those prayers, at least at the sabbath meals,
> because I find that enhances my sabbath experience.

Ellen, would it be ok to ask what the specific diet requires and what
options you may have? It's possible one of us can find a 'bread' that is ok
for it and a recipe to match since there might be an issue with the one
normally used.

Things in my mind are 100% whole wheat may work better and you could make it
at home then bring it with you. (If there is some sort of blessing over it
expected, perhaps the rabbi could do that on the side earlier?).

Your mental happiness at sabbath is as important as any other aspect of your
overall person heath. So, maybe if you can explain what it needs to be, one
of us can find out how to make it in a way that is acceptable for your
medical and overall person health needs?

in short this is a quality of life issue, having perfect physical health
without the spiritual health you need for a good quality of life is a bummer
to say the least, Lee
"cshenk" > wrote in message
...
> "Ellen K." wrote
>
>> It is not required to eat bread at all, so there is no rule that needs to
>> be waived.
>
>> The issue is that certain prayers are only said if one eats within a
>> certain timeframe a defined minimum quantity of something qualifying as
>> bread, and since I find those prayers very meaningful, I am trying to
>> find a way to be able to eat something that qualifies as bread, in a
>> sufficient quantity to be able to say those prayers, at least at the
>> sabbath meals, because I find that enhances my sabbath experience.
>
> Ellen, would it be ok to ask what the specific diet requires and what
> options you may have? It's possible one of us can find a 'bread' that is
> ok for it and a recipe to match since there might be an issue with the one
> normally used.
>
> Things in my mind are 100% whole wheat may work better and you could make
> it at home then bring it with you. (If there is some sort of blessing
> over it expected, perhaps the rabbi could do that on the side earlier?).
>
> Your mental happiness at sabbath is as important as any other aspect of
> your overall person heath. So, maybe if you can explain what it needs to
> be, one of us can find out how to make it in a way that is acceptable for
> your medical and overall person health needs?
>

but you know I was thinking it is relevant as one of the things about this
is that one must try and live ones life to the fullest while managing the
health issues, so to me, it is very interesting and informative, I aplaude
your striving to be healthy without giving up other aspects of your life
that make you a whole person, Lee
"Ellen K." > wrote in message
...
> It is not required to eat bread at all, so there is no rule that needs to
> be waived.
>
> The issue is that certain prayers are only said if one eats within a
> certain timeframe a defined minimum quantity of something qualifying as
> bread, and since I find those prayers very meaningful, I am trying to find
> a way to be able to eat something that qualifies as bread, in a sufficient
> quantity to be able to say those prayers, at least at the sabbath meals,
> because I find that enhances my sabbath experience.
>
> I did not raise this issue to the group, I feel it is not really in place
> here. I bring my DIABETES questions here, not any religious questions I
> might have.
>
> What happened was that since I had briefly discussed this previously with
> Wendy, in a post to her I mentioned as an *aside* to the breakfast
> discussion that it would be great if the 1/4 matzo worked for breakfast
> because then I would have a use for all the half matzos left over from the
> sabbath meals. Another poster jumped into the conversation and made a
> number of inaccurate statements which I felt obliged to correct, resulting
> in several more posts.
>
> At this point I would be much happier to have omitted the aside. As noted
> above, this is a DIABETES group. Everyone here has his or her own set of
> beliefs and practices, and IMO that is as it should be.
>
> "Janet" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Please forgive me if this is presumptuous, but I always had the
>> impression that the dietary and other rules of Jewish observance were
>> waived in cases where health or humanitarian concerns were present.
>> Pregnant women, et al?
>>
>>
>

Thanks.

Meanwhile I'm happy to report that my average FBG over the past 30 days is
thankfully down to 105.2, and I've got the Friday night and Saturday lunch
bread issue under control. (Eat the 1/2 rye matzo slathered with margarine
and eat a hardboiled egg between the first bite and the remainder.) Just
like anything else a diabetic wants to find a way to eat, a little
experimenting was needed.

"Storrmmee" > wrote in message
...
> but you know I was thinking it is relevant as one of the things about this
> is that one must try and live ones life to the fullest while managing the
> health issues, so to me, it is very interesting and informative, I aplaude
> your striving to be healthy without giving up other aspects of your life
> that make you a whole person, Lee
> "Ellen K." > wrote in message
> ...
>> It is not required to eat bread at all, so there is no rule that needs to
>> be waived.
>>
>> The issue is that certain prayers are only said if one eats within a
>> certain timeframe a defined minimum quantity of something qualifying as
>> bread, and since I find those prayers very meaningful, I am trying to
>> find a way to be able to eat something that qualifies as bread, in a
>> sufficient quantity to be able to say those prayers, at least at the
>> sabbath meals, because I find that enhances my sabbath experience.
>>
>> I did not raise this issue to the group, I feel it is not really in place
>> here. I bring my DIABETES questions here, not any religious questions I
>> might have.
>>
>> What happened was that since I had briefly discussed this previously with
>> Wendy, in a post to her I mentioned as an *aside* to the breakfast
>> discussion that it would be great if the 1/4 matzo worked for breakfast
>> because then I would have a use for all the half matzos left over from
>> the sabbath meals. Another poster jumped into the conversation and made
>> a number of inaccurate statements which I felt obliged to correct,
>> resulting in several more posts.
>>
>> At this point I would be much happier to have omitted the aside. As
>> noted above, this is a DIABETES group. Everyone here has his or her own
>> set of beliefs and practices, and IMO that is as it should be.
>>
>> "Janet" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Please forgive me if this is presumptuous, but I always had the
>>> impression that the dietary and other rules of Jewish observance were
>>> waived in cases where health or humanitarian concerns were present.
>>> Pregnant women, et al?
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>

wonderful you are working it all out, Lee
"Ellen K." > wrote in message
...
> Thanks.
>
> Meanwhile I'm happy to report that my average FBG over the past 30 days is
> thankfully down to 105.2, and I've got the Friday night and Saturday lunch
> bread issue under control. (Eat the 1/2 rye matzo slathered with
> margarine and eat a hardboiled egg between the first bite and the
> remainder.) Just like anything else a diabetic wants to find a way to
> eat, a little experimenting was needed.
>
> "Storrmmee" > wrote in message
> ...
>> but you know I was thinking it is relevant as one of the things about
>> this is that one must try and live ones life to the fullest while
>> managing the health issues, so to me, it is very interesting and
>> informative, I aplaude your striving to be healthy without giving up
>> other aspects of your life that make you a whole person, Lee
>> "Ellen K." > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> It is not required to eat bread at all, so there is no rule that needs
>>> to be waived.
>>>
>>> The issue is that certain prayers are only said if one eats within a
>>> certain timeframe a defined minimum quantity of something qualifying as
>>> bread, and since I find those prayers very meaningful, I am trying to
>>> find a way to be able to eat something that qualifies as bread, in a
>>> sufficient quantity to be able to say those prayers, at least at the
>>> sabbath meals, because I find that enhances my sabbath experience.
>>>
>>> I did not raise this issue to the group, I feel it is not really in
>>> place here. I bring my DIABETES questions here, not any religious
>>> questions I might have.
>>>
>>> What happened was that since I had briefly discussed this previously
>>> with Wendy, in a post to her I mentioned as an *aside* to the breakfast
>>> discussion that it would be great if the 1/4 matzo worked for breakfast
>>> because then I would have a use for all the half matzos left over from
>>> the sabbath meals. Another poster jumped into the conversation and made
>>> a number of inaccurate statements which I felt obliged to correct,
>>> resulting in several more posts.
>>>
>>> At this point I would be much happier to have omitted the aside. As
>>> noted above, this is a DIABETES group. Everyone here has his or her own
>>> set of beliefs and practices, and IMO that is as it should be.
>>>
>>> "Janet" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> Please forgive me if this is presumptuous, but I always had the
>>>> impression that the dietary and other rules of Jewish observance were
>>>> waived in cases where health or humanitarian concerns were present.
>>>> Pregnant women, et al?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>

You could have another try at the extra carbs but use veggies as the
total carbs. Do you like frittata? That's a nice way to have veggies,
protein and fat for brekky. IOW, test extra carbs a few times but from
different sources. If it fails after a few attempts then its highly
likely the morning rises aren't from DP not switching off. At that point
I would try a different protein instead of the cheese. but with the head
of romaine. If that doesn't work try 1/2 a head of romaine.. You might
also have to forget the fiber component at breakfast time and count
gross carbs. Another trick might be to try a couple of small sips of
juice when you first wake in the morning.

"Ellen K." > wrote in message
...

I've raised the carbs already by switching from romaine to green pepper
(roughly net 2 to net 5), and the past two days I even added a couple stalks
of celery.

What's your theory behind a different protein+fat rather than the cheese?

"Ozgirl" > wrote in message
...
> You could have another try at the extra carbs but use veggies as the total
> carbs. Do you like frittata? That's a nice way to have veggies, protein
> and fat for brekky. IOW, test extra carbs a few times but from different
> sources. If it fails after a few attempts then its highly likely the
> morning rises aren't from DP not switching off. At that point I would try
> a different protein instead of the cheese. but with the head of romaine.
> If that doesn't work try 1/2 a head of romaine.. You might also have to
> forget the fiber component at breakfast time and count gross carbs.
> Another trick might be to try a couple of small sips of juice when you
> first wake in the morning.
>
> "Ellen K." > wrote in message
> ...
>
>

"Ellen K." > wrote in message
news
> I've raised the carbs already by switching from romaine to green
> pepper (roughly net 2 to net 5), and the past two days I even added a
> couple stalks of celery.
>
> What's your theory behind a different protein+fat rather than the
> cheese?

Nothing other than trying all angles, lol. Who knows, you might do
better with eggs than cheese, or not...

"Ozgirl" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "Ellen K." > wrote in message
> news
>> I've raised the carbs already by switching from romaine to green pepper
>> (roughly net 2 to net 5), and the past two days I even added a couple
>> stalks of celery.
>>
>> What's your theory behind a different protein+fat rather than the cheese?
>
> Nothing other than trying all angles, lol. Who knows, you might do better
> with eggs than cheese, or not...
>

I must say, I have found it interesting that several people have commented
"That's a lot of cheese", but if someone posts that they ate three eggs or
three ounces of meat, nobody says "That's a lot of eggs" or "That's a lot of
meat".

I think eggs would be fine, but as noted elsewhere I would like to save them
for the bedtime snack. I'm not up for meat at breakfast but maybe after the
holidays I will try fish. My Italian sausages are likely out because being
soy-based they contain carbs, I think 6 gm.

Thanks again for your engagement on this issue.

And who knows, maybe it will just sort of cure itself after a bit longer on
the low-carb regimen!

"Ellen K." > wrote in message
...
>
> "Ozgirl" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>
>> "Ellen K." > wrote in message
>> news
>>> I've raised the carbs already by switching from romaine to green
>>> pepper (roughly net 2 to net 5), and the past two days I even added
>>> a couple stalks of celery.
>>>
>>> What's your theory behind a different protein+fat rather than the
>>> cheese?
>>
>> Nothing other than trying all angles, lol. Who knows, you might do
>> better with eggs than cheese, or not...
>>
>
> I must say, I have found it interesting that several people have
> commented "That's a lot of cheese", but if someone posts that they ate
> three eggs or three ounces of meat, nobody says "That's a lot of eggs"
> or "That's a lot of meat".

I don't know about anyone else but 3 ounces of cheese at a time is not
something I would like. I can easily eat 3 eggs though. Its the texture,
the fat etc. Plus past experience with cheese and migraines is another
deterrent.

Ellen K. > wrote:
>What I am thinking to try next is to come up with a recipe that will still
>count as bread for the purposes discussed in the thread about eating bread
>on the sabbath, but have the same BG effect as the low-carb tortillas. I
>need to get clearer on a few technical issues such as what percentage of
>such a recipe has to be FLOUR from one of the five specified grains, e.g.
>would "oat fiber" (anybody know if this is the same as oat bran???) count
>the same as oat flour, etc. I think if oat fiber counts the same as oat
>flour I could create something that would meet both my religious and health
>needs.

I don't know how else to say this. If your religion even suggests that you
compromise your health for a mere ritual, I suggest you consider another
religion. Whether or not you eat bread before pronouncing a sabbath blessing
will neither make you a better person nor ensure your standing with Hashem.

Orlando

"Orlando Enrique Fiol" > wrote in message
. ..

>
> I don't know how else to say this. If your religion even suggests that you
> compromise your health for a mere ritual, I suggest you consider another
> religion. Whether or not you eat bread before pronouncing a sabbath
> blessing
> will neither make you a better person nor ensure your standing with
> Hashem.

I don't see how you can even say that! AFAIK, there is no other religion
that believes what Judaism believes.

I myself do not believe in any form of religion whatever and don't wish to
debate that here or anywhere else. We all believe what we believe.

Julie Bove > wrote:
>I don't see how you can even say that! AFAIK, there is no other religion
>that believes what Judaism believes.
>I myself do not believe in any form of religion whatever and don't wish to
>debate that here or anywhere else. We all believe what we believe.

If a poor woman is trapped by a specific flavor of Jewish legalism, you bet I'm
going to say something, Christian that I am. She deserves better, a more
merciful conception of God that understands her dietary limitations and does
not impose arbitrary rules upon her. The rule of having to eat a marble-sized
piece of bread before one is "worthy" of reciting an age-old blessing over a
meal is ludicrous!

Orlando

Christians get to define Christianity, Jews get to define Judaism.

I'm sure you wouldn't like me to criticize your religion from the point of
view of mine.

"Orlando Enrique Fiol" > wrote in message
. ..
> Julie Bove > wrote:
>>I don't see how you can even say that! AFAIK, there is no other religion
>>that believes what Judaism believes.
>>I myself do not believe in any form of religion whatever and don't wish to
>>debate that here or anywhere else. We all believe what we believe.
>
> If a poor woman is trapped by a specific flavor of Jewish legalism, you
> bet I'm
> going to say something, Christian that I am. She deserves better, a more
> merciful conception of God that understands her dietary limitations and
> does
> not impose arbitrary rules upon her. The rule of having to eat a
> marble-sized
> piece of bread before one is "worthy" of reciting an age-old blessing over
> a
> meal is ludicrous!
>
> Orlando

Ellen K. > wrote:
>Christians get to define Christianity, Jews get to define Judaism.

Not quite. Jesus was, like it or not, a Jew. Therefore, his critiques of Jewish
legalism should count as coming from an insider.

>I'm sure you wouldn't like me to criticize your religion from the point of
>view of mine.

I actually wouldn't mind that. Ironically, I'm defending both your desire to
say meaningful sabbath prayers and your need not to accompany them with bread.

Orlando

"Orlando Enrique Fiol" > wrote in message
. ..
> Julie Bove > wrote:
>>I don't see how you can even say that! AFAIK, there is no other religion
>>that believes what Judaism believes.
>>I myself do not believe in any form of religion whatever and don't wish to
>>debate that here or anywhere else. We all believe what we believe.
>
> If a poor woman is trapped by a specific flavor of Jewish legalism, you
> bet I'm
> going to say something, Christian that I am. She deserves better, a more
> merciful conception of God that understands her dietary limitations and
> does
> not impose arbitrary rules upon her. The rule of having to eat a
> marble-sized
> piece of bread before one is "worthy" of reciting an age-old blessing over
> a
> meal is ludicrous!

Trapped? How very rude!

On 9/7/2010 11:04 PM, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
> Julie > wrote:
>> I don't see how you can even say that! AFAIK, there is no other religion
>> that believes what Judaism believes.
>> I myself do not believe in any form of religion whatever and don't wish to
>> debate that here or anywhere else. We all believe what we believe.
>
> If a poor woman is trapped by a specific flavor of Jewish legalism, you bet I'm
> going to say something, Christian that I am. She deserves better, a more
> merciful conception of God that understands her dietary limitations and does
> not impose arbitrary rules upon her. The rule of having to eat a marble-sized
> piece of bread before one is "worthy" of reciting an age-old blessing over a
> meal is ludicrous!
>
> Orlando

The rules that Ellen has chosen to follow are not G-d's rules. They are
rules made up by men who believed they were interpreting G-d's
commandments. Ellen chooses which of these interpretations she finds
comfort in.

Not all Jews believe as she does.

--
Janet Wilder
Way-the-heck-south Texas
Spelling doesn't count. Cooking does.

Janet Wilder > wrote:
>The rules that Ellen has chosen to follow are not G-d's rules. They are
>rules made up by men who believed they were interpreting G-d's
>commandments.

I completely agree. You said it much better than I evidently could.

>Ellen chooses which of these interpretations she finds
>comfort in.

Which is why I suggest she choose a different interpretation that dovetails
better with her diabetes.

>Not all Jews believe as she does.

I know.

Orlando

My religion does not require me to compromise my health, on the contrary.
Saving a life takes precedence over all other requirements.

Please also see my post to Janet in this thread.

"Orlando Enrique Fiol" > wrote in message
. ..
> Ellen K. > wrote:
>>What I am thinking to try next is to come up with a recipe that will still
>>count as bread for the purposes discussed in the thread about eating bread
>>on the sabbath, but have the same BG effect as the low-carb tortillas. I
>>need to get clearer on a few technical issues such as what percentage of
>>such a recipe has to be FLOUR from one of the five specified grains, e.g.
>>would "oat fiber" (anybody know if this is the same as oat bran???) count
>>the same as oat flour, etc. I think if oat fiber counts the same as oat
>>flour I could create something that would meet both my religious and
>>health
>>needs.
>
> I don't know how else to say this. If your religion even suggests that you
> compromise your health for a mere ritual, I suggest you consider another
> religion. Whether or not you eat bread before pronouncing a sabbath
> blessing
> will neither make you a better person nor ensure your standing with
> Hashem.
>
> Orlando

Ellen K. > wrote:
>My religion does not require me to compromise my health, on the contrary.
>Saving a life takes precedence over all other requirements.
>Please also see my post to Janet in this thread.
If this were true, why are you agonizing over getting your rabbi's permission
regarding a marble-sized piece of sabbath bread? Surely, there are conservative
and reform Jews who do not depend on rabbinical halachic interpretations as
justifications for nearly every quotidian action. Perhaps, you should align
yourself with a more liberal sect of Judaism.

Orlando

I don't recall asking your opinion as to what religion I should practice.

"Orlando Enrique Fiol" > wrote in message
.. .
> Ellen K. > wrote:
>>My religion does not require me to compromise my health, on the contrary.
>>Saving a life takes precedence over all other requirements.
>>Please also see my post to Janet in this thread.
> If this were true, why are you agonizing over getting your rabbi's
> permission
> regarding a marble-sized piece of sabbath bread? Surely, there are
> conservative
> and reform Jews who do not depend on rabbinical halachic interpretations
> as
> justifications for nearly every quotidian action. Perhaps, you should
> align
> yourself with a more liberal sect of Judaism.
>
> Orlando

"Orlando Enrique Fiol" > wrote in message
.. .
> Ellen K. > wrote:
>>My religion does not require me to compromise my health, on the contrary.
>>Saving a life takes precedence over all other requirements.
>>Please also see my post to Janet in this thread.
> If this were true, why are you agonizing over getting your rabbi's
> permission
> regarding a marble-sized piece of sabbath bread? Surely, there are
> conservative
> and reform Jews who do not depend on rabbinical halachic interpretations
> as
> justifications for nearly every quotidian action. Perhaps, you should
> align
> yourself with a more liberal sect of Judaism.

How very rude!

Orlando Enrique Fiol > wrote:
> Ellen K. > wrote:
> >What I am thinking to try next is to come up with a recipe that will
> >still count as bread for the purposes discussed in the thread about
> >eating bread on the sabbath, but have the same BG effect as the low-carb
> >tortillas. I need to get clearer on a few technical issues such as what
> >percentage of such a recipe has to be FLOUR from one of the five
> >specified grains, e.g. would "oat fiber" (anybody know if this is the
> >same as oat bran???) count the same as oat flour, etc. I think if oat
> >fiber counts the same as oat flour I could create something that would
> >meet both my religious and health needs.
>
> I don't know how else to say this. If your religion even suggests that
> you compromise your health for a mere ritual, I suggest you consider
> another religion. Whether or not you eat bread before pronouncing a
> sabbath blessing will neither make you a better person nor ensure your
> standing with Hashem.

Nor give you a longer life in which to do His good work. I think Judaism,
and most religions, make exceptions for people who are sick.

--
Nick, KI6VAV. Support severely wounded and disabled Veterans and their
families: https://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/ http://anymarine.com/
http://www.specialops.org/ http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/
You are not forgotten. Thanks ! ! ~Semper Fi~

"Nick Cramer" > wrote in message
...
> Orlando Enrique Fiol > wrote:
>> Ellen K. > wrote:
>> >What I am thinking to try next is to come up with a recipe that will
>> >still count as bread for the purposes discussed in the thread about
>> >eating bread on the sabbath, but have the same BG effect as the low-carb
>> >tortillas. I need to get clearer on a few technical issues such as what
>> >percentage of such a recipe has to be FLOUR from one of the five
>> >specified grains, e.g. would "oat fiber" (anybody know if this is the
>> >same as oat bran???) count the same as oat flour, etc. I think if oat
>> >fiber counts the same as oat flour I could create something that would
>> >meet both my religious and health needs.
>>
>> I don't know how else to say this. If your religion even suggests that
>> you compromise your health for a mere ritual, I suggest you consider
>> another religion. Whether or not you eat bread before pronouncing a
>> sabbath blessing will neither make you a better person nor ensure your
>> standing with Hashem.
>
> Nor give you a longer life in which to do His good work. I think Judaism,
> and most religions, make exceptions for people who are sick.
>

Nick,

Several people have now completely misinterpreted everything I've written
about this situation. I would really appreciate if you -- and anyone
else -- would read what *I* wrote, rather than responding to the
misstatements of others. That way I don't have to keep explaining myself
repeatedly. Please see my post to Janet of earlier this evening.

Thanks and best wishes for the coming year,

Ellen

> --
> Nick, KI6VAV. Support severely wounded and disabled Veterans and their
> families: https://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/ http://anymarine.com/
> http://www.specialops.org/ http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/
> You are not forgotten. Thanks ! ! ~Semper Fi~

"Ellen K." > wrote:
> "Nick Cramer" > wrote in message
> > Orlando Enrique Fiol > wrote:
> >> Ellen K. > wrote:
> >> >What I am thinking to try next is to come up with a recipe that will
> >> >still count as bread for the purposes discussed in the thread about
> >> >eating bread on the sabbath, but have the same BG effect as the
> >> >low-carb tortillas. I need to get clearer on a few technical issues
> >> >such as what percentage of such a recipe has to be FLOUR from one of
> >> >the five specified grains, e.g. would "oat fiber" (anybody know if
> >> >this is the same as oat bran???) count the same as oat flour, etc. I
> >> >think if oat fiber counts the same as oat flour I could create
> >> >something that would meet both my religious and health needs.
> >>
> >> I don't know how else to say this. If your religion even suggests that
> >> you compromise your health for a mere ritual, I suggest you consider
> >> another religion. Whether or not you eat bread before pronouncing a
> >> sabbath blessing will neither make you a better person nor ensure your
> >> standing with Hashem.
> >
> > Nor give you a longer life in which to do His good work. I think
> > Judaism, and most religions, make exceptions for people who are sick.

> Nick,
>
> Several people have now completely misinterpreted everything I've written
> about this situation. I would really appreciate if you -- and anyone
> else -- would read what *I* wrote, rather than responding to the
> misstatements of others. That way I don't have to keep explaining
> myself repeatedly. Please see my post to Janet of earlier this evening.
>
> Thanks and best wishes for the coming year,

I read your earlier post to Janet, Ellen. What I see is that you're having
difficulty accepting the restrictions that your diabetes is having on your
partaking in and enjoyment of your religion. Only you, with whatever
guidance you find appropriate, can decide that.

L'shanah tovah,

--
Nick, KI6VAV. Support severely wounded and disabled Veterans and their
families: https://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/ http://anymarine.com/
http://www.specialops.org/ http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/
You are not forgotten. Thanks ! ! ~Semper Fi~

"Nick Cramer" > wrote in message
...
>
> I read your earlier post to Janet, Ellen. What I see is that you're having
> difficulty accepting the restrictions that your diabetes is having on your
> partaking in and enjoyment of your religion. Only you, with whatever
> guidance you find appropriate, can decide that.
>
> L'shanah tovah,
>
> --

Thanks, Nick. As I just posted to Carol, the experimenting I am doing is
really no different from the experimenting a diabetic might make with
respect to any other food s/he may wish to eat but can no longer eat in the
form s/he ate it prior to diagnosis.

On 9/8/2010 12:33 AM, Nick Cramer wrote:
> Orlando Enrique > wrote:
>> Ellen > wrote:
>>> What I am thinking to try next is to come up with a recipe that will
>>> still count as bread for the purposes discussed in the thread about
>>> eating bread on the sabbath, but have the same BG effect as the low-carb
>>> tortillas. I need to get clearer on a few technical issues such as what
>>> percentage of such a recipe has to be FLOUR from one of the five
>>> specified grains, e.g. would "oat fiber" (anybody know if this is the
>>> same as oat bran???) count the same as oat flour, etc. I think if oat
>>> fiber counts the same as oat flour I could create something that would
>>> meet both my religious and health needs.
>>
>> I don't know how else to say this. If your religion even suggests that
>> you compromise your health for a mere ritual, I suggest you consider
>> another religion. Whether or not you eat bread before pronouncing a
>> sabbath blessing will neither make you a better person nor ensure your
>> standing with Hashem.
>
> Nor give you a longer life in which to do His good work. I think Judaism,
> and most religions, make exceptions for people who are sick.
>

The problem here is that in order to say the blessing on bread and to
say the grace after meals, which on the Sabbath is a big part of the
celebration, her rabbi declared she has to eat a certain amount of
bread. She doesn't have to eat the bread, but she can't partake in these
prayers if she doesn't eat it.

I don't think it's Ellen's problem as much as it's a rabbi who is
somewhat clueless about dispensations for these kinds of things.
Wherever he found the rules about the size of pieces of bread that
qualify for the blessing, he could also have found something about
making the blessings without bread if there is an illness involved, but
he didn't.

This is how she chooses to practice her religion. If she doesn't eat the
bread and says the prayers, she will have considered herself as having
committed a sin.

Let's leave it, please.
--
Janet Wilder
Way-the-heck-south Texas
Spelling doesn't count. Cooking does.

Janet Wilder > wrote:
>The problem here is that in order to say the blessing on bread and to
>say the grace after meals, which on the Sabbath is a big part of the
>celebration, her rabbi declared she has to eat a certain amount of
>bread. She doesn't have to eat the bread, but she can't partake in these
>prayers if she doesn't eat it.

It sounds to me like Ellen needs a different rabbi.

>I don't think it's Ellen's problem as much as it's a rabbi who is
>somewhat clueless about dispensations for these kinds of things.
>Wherever he found the rules about the size of pieces of bread that
>qualify for the blessing, he could also have found something about
>making the blessings without bread if there is an illness involved, but
>he didn't.

And because of her orthodox faith, she implicitly trusts her rabbi's
interpretations of Jewish law, even when they may compromise her health.

>This is how she chooses to practice her religion. If she doesn't eat the
>bread and says the prayers, she will have considered herself as having
>committed a sin.

Praying to God while not endangering one's health is not a sin.

>Let's leave it, please.

I don't think we should; it cuts to the core of what it means to live with
diabetes while trying to be religious.

Orlando

On 9/9/2010 9:36 AM, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
> Janet > wrote:
>> The problem here is that in order to say the blessing on bread and to
>> say the grace after meals, which on the Sabbath is a big part of the
>> celebration, her rabbi declared she has to eat a certain amount of
>> bread. She doesn't have to eat the bread, but she can't partake in these
>> prayers if she doesn't eat it.
>
> It sounds to me like Ellen needs a different rabbi.

You might be correct. I was telling my own rabbi about this whole thing
and he said I was absolutely correct that her rabbi should have looked
for a interpretation that would permit her to say the blessings.
Specifically, he stated that there is no law that he knows of that would
prohibit saying the grace after meals, what Ellen calls "benchen"
without having eaten bread,that he is aware of. I am aware of a "rule"
that says if you haven't eaten bread, you don't have to say the entire
grace, but neither of us could come up with one stating one *had* to eat
bread. Again, there are interpretations and there are interpretations.

I am led to believe that when she asked her rabbi her question or
"sheila" she may not have phrased it appropriately for him to give a
considered answer. Perhaps instead of asking how much bread is required
to say the blessing and the grace, she might have asked her rabbi if
there was a dispensation for saying both of these with out eating any
bread (or matzoh) when one has an illness that makes eating even a small
amount a danger to her health. Sometimes getting a good answer requires
asking a good question.

>> I don't think it's Ellen's problem as much as it's a rabbi who is
>> somewhat clueless about dispensations for these kinds of things.
>> Wherever he found the rules about the size of pieces of bread that
>> qualify for the blessing, he could also have found something about
>> making the blessings without bread if there is an illness involved, but
>> he didn't.
>
> And because of her orthodox faith, she implicitly trusts her rabbi's
> interpretations of Jewish law, even when they may compromise her health.

See above.

Yes. Her beliefs require her to follow the interpretation of her rabbi.

Many people equate a rabbi with a priest or minister. Though the job
has kind of evolved to mean a person who leads a religious service, that
is not really what a rabbi does. Jews do not need a rabbi to lead their
services. It's nice to have a cantor, but generally any knowledgeable
congregant can lead a Jewish service. Jews can also pray alone though
certain prayers require a quorum of 10.

The word "rabbi" translates to "teacher" and a rabbi's main job is not
to lead religious services, butto answer the questions of his
congregation (or followers) about religious practices.

>> This is how she chooses to practice her religion. If she doesn't eat the
>> bread and says the prayers, she will have considered herself as having
>> committed a sin.
>
> Praying to God while not endangering one's health is not a sin.

It will be difficult for most people to understand the culture
surrounding the way many orthodox practice their religion. Many Jews
don't understand it so I don't expect a non-Jew would be able to.

>> Let's leave it, please.
>
> I don't think we should; it cuts to the core of what it means to live with
> diabetes while trying to be religious.
>

....which is why I responded.


--
Janet Wilder
Way-the-heck-south Texas
Spelling doesn't count. Cooking does.

In alt.support.diabetes Orlando Enrique Fiol > wrote:

> I don't know how else to say this. If your religion even suggests that you
> compromise your health for a mere ritual, I suggest you consider another
> religion.

My religious teachers were always quite firm on this kind of
issue. Shopping for your religion on the basis of what made things
more convenient for you was absolutely the wrong attitude.

--
Chris Malcolm

In alt.support.diabetes Ellen K. > wrote:

: It's true that I don't tolerate grains well. Based on this morning's test,
: I would say I can't tolerate them at all in the morning. However, late in
: the day I can eat a low-carb tortilla (which does contain grain), (it has 10
: gm carbs of which 7 are fiber, so 3 gm net carbs) with no problem.


: The half-a-rye-matzo for the sabbath meals does not do what the quarter did
: this morning, but it doesn't seem to be completely benign either, although
: it's a little hard to separate out the effects. For example, usually I go
: to sleep earlier on Friday night than during the week, so more time elapses
: until I check my FBG Saturday morning... so it may be higher just because
: more time has elapsed, not because I ate the half a matzo the night before.
: What I am thinking to try next is to come up with a recipe that will still
: count as bread for the purposes discussed in the thread about eating bread
: on the sabbath, but have the same BG effect as the low-carb tortillas. I
: need to get clearer on a few technical issues such as what percentage of
: such a recipe has to be FLOUR from one of the five specified grains, e.g.
: would "oat fiber" (anybody know if this is the same as oat bran???) count
: the same as oat flour, etc. I think if oat fiber counts the same as oat
: flour I could create something that would meet both my religious and health
: needs.
<snipped Orlando's nice post>

Ellen, I am not trying to pasken for you, but it would seem to me that as
the fiber is PART of the grain, it shoudl be OK to use just that part to
some estent. After all, we can us just the endosperm (white part) of the
wheat without the bran. Why not the bran without the endosperm:-)

If I don't get off this machine my dinner will bot be ready !

Wendy