Yeah, that's my question.

I'm getting ready to gut my kitchen and install, among other things, an
island with an electric cooktop. The idea of the renovation is to open
up the kitchen and installing an overhead vent above the island would
defeat the purpose. I cook all the time and well enough, so I'm not
too worried about setting garlic on fire and having the stench seep
into the curtains. Still, from what I've read in these archives, it
seems nearly unanimous that downdraft ventilation is a waste of time,
but is it better than nothing?

Jason

> defeat the purpose. I cook all the time and well enough, so I'm not
> too worried about setting garlic on fire and having the stench seep
> into the curtains. Still, from what I've read in these archives, it
> seems nearly unanimous that downdraft ventilation is a waste of time,
> but is it better than nothing?

I live in a small apartment with a "kitchenette" that has no ventilation
above the stove. I didn't think this would be a big deal, but it really
has been - in particular, cooking with oil leaves an oily residue
everywhere. It's not splattering - the walls have a residue on them
even on the other side of the room. I don't do deep frying or anything
like that - this is just from normal sauteeing and the like.

I can't comment on different types of ventilation systems, but having
none at all is definitely not recommended.

Karen

cdromes wrote:

> I'm getting ready to gut my kitchen and install, among other things, an
> island with an electric cooktop. The idea of the renovation is to open
> up the kitchen and installing an overhead vent above the island would
> defeat the purpose.

Why don't you ask a realtor what an unvented cooking island means...
Perhaps you are building negative value instead of merely opening your
space.

"cdromes" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Yeah, that's my question.
>
> I'm getting ready to gut my kitchen and install, among other things, an
> island with an electric cooktop. The idea of the renovation is to open
> up the kitchen and installing an overhead vent above the island would
> defeat the purpose. I cook all the time and well enough, so I'm not
> too worried about setting garlic on fire and having the stench seep
> into the curtains. Still, from what I've read in these archives, it
> seems nearly unanimous that downdraft ventilation is a waste of time,
> but is it better than nothing?

The only reasons to vent are to rid your home of vaporized grease, odors,
and humidity. If you are OK living with these things then don't bother with
the vent. You seem to think that "stench" is something that occurs form
adverse circumstances such as a fire or burned food. That isn't the case.
Cooking odors come from everything you make and will permeate anything that
is porous like carpeting and fabric. Smoke and grease vapors will condense
on your wall and furniture and in your HVAC system. But if that doesn't
bather you, then it isn't an issue.

As for the downdraft, I think it is better than nothing. Since you are
using electric, you have an advantage of downdraft with gas. Of course a
telescoping downdraft unit is probably better than a surface vent downdraft.
I have both a downdraft and overhead ventilation.

Frankly, I don't understand the issue with putting a vent over an island or
a peninsula. As long as the vent is above your eye level, your view isn't
blocked. Actually, I don't understand why it is so important to have the
cooktop in an island. Food that requires long cooking time doesn't require
that you attend to it. Having a twp gallons of stock simmering on the island
cooktop seem like a hazard to me. Food that requires a short cooking time
will only take you away from your guests for a few moments. In addition,
quick, high heat cooking generates a lot of smoke and spatter and is exactly
the kind of cooking that requires a hood. If it were me, the cooktop would
have good ventilation and would be put against the wall. But that's just
me. I'm not running a display kitchen. On the other hand, for everyday
cooking, you will spend far more time at the sink prepping and cleaning. I
think a sink in the island make far more sense than a cooktop.

On 2006-01-15, Vox Humana > wrote:
>
> "cdromes" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>> Yeah, that's my question.
>>
>> I'm getting ready to gut my kitchen and install, among other things, an
>> island with an electric cooktop. The idea of the renovation is to open
>> up the kitchen and installing an overhead vent above the island would
>> defeat the purpose. I cook all the time and well enough, so I'm not
>> too worried about setting garlic on fire and having the stench seep
>> into the curtains. Still, from what I've read in these archives, it
>> seems nearly unanimous that downdraft ventilation is a waste of time,
>> but is it better than nothing?
>
> The only reasons to vent are to rid your home of vaporized grease, odors,
> and humidity. If you are OK living with these things then don't bother with
> the vent. You seem to think that "stench" is something that occurs form
> adverse circumstances such as a fire or burned food. That isn't the case.
> Cooking odors come from everything you make and will permeate anything that
> is porous like carpeting and fabric. Smoke and grease vapors will condense
> on your wall and furniture and in your HVAC system. But if that doesn't
> bather you, then it isn't an issue.
[...]

Discomfort and odors aside, that condensed grease is highly flammable,
isn't it? Not to mention that all of that stuff condenses in your
lungs, too.

--
Randall

Bottom line: downdraft *is* better than nothing.

DON'T do nothing.

An overhead hood is *much* more effective. I would
try really hard to figure out a way to make a hood
work, but if you're bound and determined to preserve
your "skyline", then do a downdraft.

As other posters have noted, no hood is dirty, unheathful,
and illegal.

"Vox Humana" > wrote:
> The only reasons to vent are to rid your home of vaporized grease, odors,
> and humidity.

I'll add one more... so as not to set off the smoke detectors. That was a
frequent occurance in my house when cooking certain foods (particularly
broiling salmon). Not only would the first floor detector trigger, but
sometimes the second floor one would start too. Luckily the third floor one
never joined in. The problems of living in a narrow three story row house, I
guess.

Turning the vent on minimizes these problems for me. But the most
troublesome smoke detector was that on the first floor, even with the vent
on. I replaced the ionization type I originally installed throughout the
house with a photoelectric type, and now have no difficulties.

> If you are OK living with these things then don't bother with the vent.
> You seem to think that "stench" is something that occurs form adverse
> circumstances such as a fire or burned food. That isn't the case. Cooking
> odors come from everything you make and will permeate anything that is
> porous like carpeting and fabric. Smoke and grease vapors will condense
> on your wall and furniture and in your HVAC system. But if that doesn't
> bather you, then it isn't an issue.

When I was growing up, the pervasiveness of the grease became clear to me in
one house, which had a separate kitchen and a combined living/dining area.
My parents painted all the walls some form of white. As one progressed away
from the kitchen, one could see an obvious decline in the yellowing on the
walls from grease. The corners (adjoining walls, and walls adjoining
ceilings) were where the grease tended to collect. I was amazed at the
extent of the problem.

--
( #wff_ng_7# at #verizon# period #net# )

"cdromes" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Yeah, that's my question.
>
> I'm getting ready to gut my kitchen and install, among other things, an
> island with an electric cooktop. The idea of the renovation is to open
> up the kitchen and installing an overhead vent above the island would
> defeat the purpose. I cook all the time and well enough, so I'm not
> too worried about setting garlic on fire and having the stench seep
> into the curtains. Still, from what I've read in these archives, it
> seems nearly unanimous that downdraft ventilation is a waste of time,
> but is it better than nothing?
>
> Jason
>

"cdromes" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Yeah, that's my question.
>
> I'm getting ready to gut my kitchen and install, among other things, an
> island with an electric cooktop. The idea of the renovation is to open
> up the kitchen and installing an overhead vent above the island would
> defeat the purpose. I cook all the time and well enough, so I'm not
> too worried about setting garlic on fire and having the stench seep
> into the curtains. Still, from what I've read in these archives, it
> seems nearly unanimous that downdraft ventilation is a waste of time,
> but is it better than nothing?
>
> Jason
>

It's basicallly useless. Sure it removes a small amount of the odor, heat,
and grease in some situations, but 80-90% still gets distributed around your
house. It's a decision between appearance and utility - is the main purpose
of your kitchen to be cooking or looking nice? It's not always possible to
do both. To me, a kitchen with a big, functional hood says "serious cook."


--
Peter Aitken
Visit my recipe and kitchen myths page at www.pgacon.com/cooking.htm

"Will" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> cdromes wrote:
>
>> I'm getting ready to gut my kitchen and install, among other things, an
>> island with an electric cooktop. The idea of the renovation is to open
>> up the kitchen and installing an overhead vent above the island would
>> defeat the purpose.
>
> Why don't you ask a realtor what an unvented cooking island means...
> Perhaps you are building negative value instead of merely opening your
> space.
>

99.99% of realtors would return a blank stare. When we were house-hunting a
while back, we told our realtor that a high-end kitchen would be a major
selling point for us. We were shown many kitchens with top of the line
applicances and fancy counters and cabinets, but no hood. Kitchens for
designers, not cooks.


--
Peter Aitken
Visit my recipe and kitchen myths page at www.pgacon.com/cooking.htm

"Randall Nortman" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> On 2006-01-15, Vox Humana > wrote:
>>
>> "cdromes" > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>>> Yeah, that's my question.
>>>
>>> I'm getting ready to gut my kitchen and install, among other things, an
>>> island with an electric cooktop. The idea of the renovation is to open
>>> up the kitchen and installing an overhead vent above the island would
>>> defeat the purpose. I cook all the time and well enough, so I'm not
>>> too worried about setting garlic on fire and having the stench seep
>>> into the curtains. Still, from what I've read in these archives, it
>>> seems nearly unanimous that downdraft ventilation is a waste of time,
>>> but is it better than nothing?
>>
>> The only reasons to vent are to rid your home of vaporized grease, odors,
>> and humidity. If you are OK living with these things then don't bother
>> with
>> the vent. You seem to think that "stench" is something that occurs form
>> adverse circumstances such as a fire or burned food. That isn't the
>> case.
>> Cooking odors come from everything you make and will permeate anything
>> that
>> is porous like carpeting and fabric. Smoke and grease vapors will
>> condense
>> on your wall and furniture and in your HVAC system. But if that doesn't
>> bather you, then it isn't an issue.
> [...]
>
> Discomfort and odors aside, that condensed grease is highly flammable,
> isn't it? Not to mention that all of that stuff condenses in your
> lungs, too.

It might be flammable, but not at the levels that would condense on your
walls. It probably isn't good for your lungs.

"wff_ng_7" > wrote in message
news:2Jzyf.8573$US3.3928@trnddc04...
> "Vox Humana" > wrote:
>> The only reasons to vent are to rid your home of vaporized grease, odors,
>> and humidity.
>
> I'll add one more... so as not to set off the smoke detectors.

Right. That's why I had to add overhead ventilation over my downdraft
range. Every time I used the grill, the smoke alarm went off. Mine are
hard wired and linked, so they all go off if one is triggered.

"Peter Aitken" > wrote:
> 99.99% of realtors would return a blank stare. When we were house-hunting
> a while back, we told our realtor that a high-end kitchen would be a major
> selling point for us. We were shown many kitchens with top of the line
> applicances and fancy counters and cabinets, but no hood. Kitchens for
> designers, not cooks.

It's amazing sometimes how oblivious people can be to things that are
missing from kitchens. Just as long as it "shows well", everything will be
okay.

This past summer a house in my neighborhood with a remodeled kitchen went on
the market and had a contract on it before the first open house. I went over
to see it out of curiosity, and the kitchen did look great... all the
lastest stuff including black granite countertops. But there was what to me
was an unbelievable flaw... there was not one single electrical outlet
anywhere along the countertop. The single available electrical outlet in the
kitchen (that wasn't dedicated to a major appliance) was on the opposite
wall. What were they thinking? Even people who don't cook and just have the
kitchen for show might want to make some coffee!

--
( #wff_ng_7# at #verizon# period #net# )

"wff_ng_7" > wrote in message
news:9zByf.3257$MG1.424@trnddc05...
> "Peter Aitken" > wrote:
>> 99.99% of realtors would return a blank stare. When we were house-hunting
>> a while back, we told our realtor that a high-end kitchen would be a
>> major selling point for us. We were shown many kitchens with top of the
>> line applicances and fancy counters and cabinets, but no hood. Kitchens
>> for designers, not cooks.
>
> It's amazing sometimes how oblivious people can be to things that are
> missing from kitchens. Just as long as it "shows well", everything will be
> okay.
>
> This past summer a house in my neighborhood with a remodeled kitchen went
> on the market and had a contract on it before the first open house. I went
> over to see it out of curiosity, and the kitchen did look great... all the
> lastest stuff including black granite countertops. But there was what to
> me was an unbelievable flaw... there was not one single electrical outlet
> anywhere along the countertop. The single available electrical outlet in
> the kitchen (that wasn't dedicated to a major appliance) was on the
> opposite wall. What were they thinking? Even people who don't cook and
> just have the kitchen for show might want to make some coffee!
>

I'm sure that wouldn't meet code. The minimum number of outlets is one per
6 liner feet of wall as I recall. Also, I believe that in a kitchen they
should be 20 amp circuits and CFCI if they are within 3 feet of a water
source.

"Vox Humana" > wrote:
> I'm sure that wouldn't meet code. The minimum number of outlets is one
> per 6 liner feet of wall as I recall. Also, I believe that in a kitchen
> they should be 20 amp circuits and CFCI if they are within 3 feet of a
> water source.

I'm sure it wouldn't either. But I am not sure what was the resolution to
the problem. The sale did go through on that first contract, but perhaps
things were corrected beforehand.

The house, like mine, was built around 1962. Mine has three counter outlets,
and I'm sure this one was similar (but it does have a different floor plan).
I know where at least two of the original outlets disappeared to. There was
one next to the refrigerator, shared with the countertop. The refrigerator
was replaced by a big side by side model, taking use of that outlet away
(covered it up). A second outlet was relocated for use by an above range
microwave oven. As to any others, I'm not sure.

As to code, who's checking? ;-) I know a lot of work is done in this city
even by contractors with no permits. One day while the remodeling work was
underway, I went over there to ask a question, and there wasn't a single
English speaking worker present. I get the feeling that these little details
aren't important where they came from.

--
( #wff_ng_7# at #verizon# period #net# )

"wff_ng_7" > wrote in message
news:w7Cyf.7163$Zo.6328@trnddc07...
> "Vox Humana" > wrote:
>> I'm sure that wouldn't meet code. The minimum number of outlets is one
>> per 6 liner feet of wall as I recall. Also, I believe that in a kitchen
>> they should be 20 amp circuits and CFCI if they are within 3 feet of a
>> water source.
>
> I'm sure it wouldn't either. But I am not sure what was the resolution to
> the problem. The sale did go through on that first contract, but perhaps
> things were corrected beforehand.
>
> The house, like mine, was built around 1962. Mine has three counter
> outlets, and I'm sure this one was similar (but it does have a different
> floor plan). I know where at least two of the original outlets disappeared
> to. There was one next to the refrigerator, shared with the countertop.
> The refrigerator was replaced by a big side by side model, taking use of
> that outlet away (covered it up). A second outlet was relocated for use by
> an above range microwave oven. As to any others, I'm not sure.
>
> As to code, who's checking? ;-) I know a lot of work is done in this city
> even by contractors with no permits. One day while the remodeling work was
> underway, I went over there to ask a question, and there wasn't a single
> English speaking worker present. I get the feeling that these little
> details aren't important where they came from.
>

When we renovated, we actually added outlets. We added dedicated circuits
to both the Over-the-range microwave and refrigerator. We also added one
outlet for the counter, one for the trash compactor, and one for the hot
water dispenser. In addition, we changed all the outlets so they had their
own GFCI hardware. We were tired of trying to figure out which outlet was
causing a fault. The way the house was wired, we had GFCIs in the kitchen
that also went to outside outlets, one in a bathroom that went to the
garage, one in another bathroom that went to the front porch. When we got
horizontal rain and something outside would short, outlets in seemingly
random places would go dead.

On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 17:29:06 GMT, Vox Humana > wrote:

> Actually, I don't understand why it is so important to have the
>cooktop in an island.

To me the number one place for the sink is looking out the window. But if
that isn't an option, then the sink should be in the island. So the person
can see everybody else and not be looking at a wall. Where's the OP's sink?

Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).

Wow...thanks for all the great replies! Glad I asked prior to starting
down that road. The idea of an island cooktop was based primarily on
the ability to face the world (guests, relatives, the dog, etc.) while
cooking. Research has shown that financially and functionally, turning
my back on "the world" to stir stuff occassionally on a range/oven
under the existing wall-mounted hood is a better option. The money
saved will enable me to afford adding a half-bathroom in the utility
room, so thanks for the sanity check. It all seems so clear now!


Vox Humana wrote:
> "cdromes" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > Yeah, that's my question.
> >
> > I'm getting ready to gut my kitchen and install, among other things, an
> > island with an electric cooktop. The idea of the renovation is to open
> > up the kitchen and installing an overhead vent above the island would
> > defeat the purpose. I cook all the time and well enough, so I'm not
> > too worried about setting garlic on fire and having the stench seep
> > into the curtains. Still, from what I've read in these archives, it
> > seems nearly unanimous that downdraft ventilation is a waste of time,
> > but is it better than nothing?
>
> The only reasons to vent are to rid your home of vaporized grease, odors,
> and humidity. If you are OK living with these things then don't bother with
> the vent. You seem to think that "stench" is something that occurs form
> adverse circumstances such as a fire or burned food. That isn't the case.
> Cooking odors come from everything you make and will permeate anything that
> is porous like carpeting and fabric. Smoke and grease vapors will condense
> on your wall and furniture and in your HVAC system. But if that doesn't
> bather you, then it isn't an issue.
>
> As for the downdraft, I think it is better than nothing. Since you are
> using electric, you have an advantage of downdraft with gas. Of course a
> telescoping downdraft unit is probably better than a surface vent downdraft.
> I have both a downdraft and overhead ventilation.
>
> Frankly, I don't understand the issue with putting a vent over an island or
> a peninsula. As long as the vent is above your eye level, your view isn't
> blocked. Actually, I don't understand why it is so important to have the
> cooktop in an island. Food that requires long cooking time doesn't require
> that you attend to it. Having a twp gallons of stock simmering on the island
> cooktop seem like a hazard to me. Food that requires a short cooking time
> will only take you away from your guests for a few moments. In addition,
> quick, high heat cooking generates a lot of smoke and spatter and is exactly
> the kind of cooking that requires a hood. If it were me, the cooktop would
> have good ventilation and would be put against the wall. But that's just
> me. I'm not running a display kitchen. On the other hand, for everyday
> cooking, you will spend far more time at the sink prepping and cleaning. I
> think a sink in the island make far more sense than a cooktop.

"Don Wiss" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 17:29:06 GMT, Vox Humana > wrote:
>
>> Actually, I don't understand why it is so important to have the
>>cooktop in an island.
>
> To me the number one place for the sink is looking out the window. But if
> that isn't an option, then the sink should be in the island. So the person
> can see everybody else and not be looking at a wall. Where's the OP's
> sink?

I agree. In my case the sink is in a peninsula and allows me to see out
several windows. I spend far more time at the sink than at the range.

"cdromes" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Wow...thanks for all the great replies! Glad I asked prior to starting
> down that road. The idea of an island cooktop was based primarily on
> the ability to face the world (guests, relatives, the dog, etc.) while
> cooking. Research has shown that financially and functionally, turning
> my back on "the world" to stir stuff occassionally on a range/oven
> under the existing wall-mounted hood is a better option. The money
> saved will enable me to afford adding a half-bathroom in the utility
> room, so thanks for the sanity check. It all seems so clear now!
>

Glad to hear you changed your mind. I think that you will not only save
money, but your house will stay cleaner also. I was at a Christmas party
recently where the cooktop was in an island. It turned out to be awkward and
a bit dangerous as people were attracted to the island and cooking was
difficult. That kitchen had an electric down-draft range and the homeowner
had problems with the downdraft. I think you will be happy with your
decision. Besides, you can have some nice tile work done on the backsplash
behind the cooktop now and make it a focal point.

On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 02:30:20 GMT, "Vox Humana" > wrote:

> Besides, you can have some nice tile work done on the backsplash
>behind the cooktop now and make it a focal point.

I'd like a glass block window above my range. With a sheet of fire proof
glass on the inside. Natural light on the cooktop!

Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).