Jerry DeAngelis wrote:

> You guys need to lighten up. I told you where we got the name, and
> that is the name. If this confounds you I am sorry.

How about be less of a horse's ass, Jerry?

It's not a matter of being confounded, it's a matter of your
"chef" and his utter lack of understanding where names come
from and what they mean. And your endorsing that ignorance.
As for your flaccid effort to strike out at people who look
for coherent intelligence in the kitchen, save that energy
for your bread doughs. It'll be less painful in the long run.

I bet this guy piles up foods and calls the heap a "Napoleon."

Or he makes a blueberry pie and calls it a "clafouti."

> Let's just call
> it raw "zucchini, cut into thin strips, and then dressed with olive
> oil and garlic." I suppose that would make it something you could all
> relate to when it comes to food.

If you and your web site demonstrated deep knowledge and
extraordinary skill, you might be able to pull that snide
crap off. Your stuff is pretty good, but you ain't the top
of the mountain.

> I imagine that when you hear the word foam you think of foaming at the
> mouth. It turns out that the most famous restaurant in Spain, as well
> as many in the USA are big into foams. I think this is a stupid mane
> for the product, but it is the name they chose.

More ignorance, Jerry. When Adria introduced foams at El
Bulli, they were precisely and exactly that - foams. They
were dispensed from devices usually used for whipped cream.
When various and sundry morons tried to swing onto his
bandwagon (about three years after he'd already moved on),
they were as well informed as your "chef" and squirted out
all sorts of hilarious perversions of the real thing. Adria
is truly in a class of his own. The would-be clones who try
to imitate him are so far off the mark as to deserve gentle
snickers and a dismissive wave of the hand.

> So I spent 2 minutes
> learning about it, as well as about "de-constructed foods". If you
> want something to tax your intellect, spend a bit of time studying
> de-constructed food.

One great danger you seem to have fallen prey to is thinking
that because you just learned something that nobody else
knows it already. The notion of deconstruction is as old as
passing on recipes. And actively dismantling foods to create
separated variants is likewise nothing new. Two whole
minutes, huh? Real science...

I've written probably 500 articles that specifically
deconstructed traditional foods. Or factory foods. Or
something a neighbor made. Or a wild-assed idea like
blueberry nuke cakes.

> Jerry @ The Artisan
> http://www.theartisan.net

Your baked stuff is rather good. Don't get too comfortable.

> PS - before you bitch about a recipe, try it. If it's good, the name
> is irrelevant. If you don't like it, delete it, or forget it.

Hey, Jerry. The name is never irrelevant except to
knuckle-dragging Neanderthals for whom language is a burden,
a trifle, rather than a means to the end of transmitting
information. Childish attempts to be oh-so-modern with names
that are uninformative and even wrong brands those users
with an unfortunate mark.

Here's some free advice about language and writing: Don't
write it so they can understand it. Write it so they can't
misunderstand it.

Zucchini carpaccio, your "chef's" ass.

Pastorio

Bob/Pastorio

You are totally off base here. You cannot read, or choose not to, as
I have posted a number of references that contradict your assertion of
what Carpaccio is, or should be. I stand by the Zucchini Carpaccio,
as do the references I provided. You seem to think because you write
articles, you wear the white robe of a Pope. You don't, and your
diatribe suggests you never will.

It is nice to see that you are familiar with foams and deconstructed
foods. I too have written about them, but have no need to impress
anyone here. In short, I find them silly and of limited value in the
real world inhabited by most people.

When you have 1.3 million visitors a year to your website - from all
parts of the world - you can crow a bit. If indeed you have web site
please, provide the URL so that we can visit it, and be enlightened.

Jerry




"Bob (this one)" > wrote in message
...
> Jerry DeAngelis wrote:
>

Jerry DeAngelis wrote:

> You are totally off base here. You cannot read, or choose not to, as
> I have posted a number of references that contradict your assertion of
> what Carpaccio is, or should be.

Jerry, you posted two references, both of which I dealt
with, and took it further to full explanation of why I made
the assertions. You've just repeated your initial notion
that because you did it, it was right. Carpaccio should be
red meat on a plate - to echo the color palette of the
painter Carpaccio, as originally construed at Harry's Bar.
That others misuse, misconstrue or simply want to sound more
swell and nifty by using it to mean that which it doesn't,
merely demonstrates that while 100 is the average IQ, it
isn't necessarily sufficient.

> I stand by the Zucchini Carpaccio,
> as do the references I provided. You seem to think because you write
> articles, you wear the white robe of a Pope. You don't, and your
> diatribe suggests you never will.

Jerry, I'm a chef with more than 30 years experience, with
European and American training, and ownership of many, and
operation of many more restaurants. I'm a member of several
professional organizations involved with foodservice. I also
have a degree in English and have written more than 1500
articles which have been published in places like the
NYTimes and LATimes syndicates as well as many other
magazines and newspapers, even an encyclopedia. I've been
doing a call-in radio program for nearly 20 years about food
and cooking. I'm not the pope and I don't play him on tv.
But I surely do have a lengthy professional background in
this field. And while I may not be the smartest kitchen
hand, the - literally - thousands of books in my library,
all of which I've read and used, would seem to comprise a
reasonably exhaustive source bank. I ain't the pope, but I
also ain't a rookie.

I don't think I'm going to defer to your literary criticism,
given your own writing, although "diatribe" was a nice touch.

> It is nice to see that you are familiar with foams and deconstructed
> foods. I too have written about them, but have no need to impress
> anyone here. In short, I find them silly and of limited value in the
> real world inhabited by most people.

<LOL> Of course. That's why you brought them up to try to
seem more widely knowledgeable than you are. And assumed
that others - probably me - aren't as versed as you are. But
I somewhat agree with your assessment of foams. They do have
a real, if limited, place in culinaria, as foie gras,
caviar, balut, Velveeta, durian and Miracle Whip do. The
table is nothing if not democratic. If the "real world as
inhabited by most people" were to be the sole criterion for
value, there would be no great music, architecture, art or
literature. Or cuisine. Perhaps try to aspire higher.

> When you have 1.3 million visitors a year to your website - from all
> parts of the world - you can crow a bit. If indeed you have web site
> please, provide the URL so that we can visit it, and be enlightened.

I don't have a web site up. That total of visitors is a
large number. I note that you've just bragged about your web
site, but above you say you "have no need to impress anyone
here." Perhaps a tiny contradiction.

Pastorio

"Bob (this one)" > wrote in message ...

> ... I also have a degree in English and have written more than
> 1500 articles which have been published in places like the
> NYTimes and LATimes syndicates as well as many other
> magazines and newspapers, even an encyclopedia. ...

Welcome. It is very nice to find posters who seem literate.

> (Foams) have a real, if limited, place in culinaria, as foie gras,
> caviar, balut, Velveeta, durian and Miracle Whip do.

I suppose that having a "place in culinaria" can be taken to
imply that they are edible. I have always been partial to Miracle
Whip -- I wonder if you (Bob) can help me understand how it
is made? Can do mayonnaise, but not Miracle Whip. Balut
and durian do not seem very interesting, particularly balut.

One thing I have always liked is a fried baloney sandwich on
sourdough bread, with Miracle Whip and kimchee.

--
Dicky

Dick Adams wrote:
> "Bob (this one)" > wrote in message ...
>
>> (Foams) have a real, if limited, place in culinaria, as foie gras,
>> caviar, balut, Velveeta, durian and Miracle Whip do.
>
> I suppose that having a "place in culinaria" can be taken to
> imply that they are edible.

<LOL> At least.

> I have always been partial to Miracle
> Whip -- I wonder if you (Bob) can help me understand how it
> is made? Can do mayonnaise, but not Miracle Whip. Balut
> and durian do not seem very interesting, particularly balut.

Miracle Whip is a factory product that you can't exactly
duplicate at home. It's an evolution of "salad dressing" and
there are lots of recipes out there for it.
<http://www.recipezaar.com/41781>

And balut is not interesting. Really not interesting.

> One thing I have always liked is a fried baloney sandwich on
> sourdough bread, with Miracle Whip and kimchee.

Not a combination I've ever had. I don't especially like
Miracle Whip. I find the sweetness offputting. When I was a
kid, one of our neighbors used to make us Miracle Whip
sandwiches on Wonder bread. We thought they were terrific.

I grew up with homemade bologna (actually it was my
grandfather's homemade version of mortadella) that was never
fried that way. Until I got to college and my roommate
introduced me to its delights. Bologna, lettuce, mayo on a
New York kaiser roll at 3 in the morning in anticipation of
a monster hangover in a few hours.

Perfect.

Pastorio

In article >,
Bob (this one) > wrote:
= Dick Adams wrote:
= > "Bob (this one)" > wrote in message
= ...
[...]
= > I have always been partial to Miracle
= > Whip -- I wonder if you (Bob) can help me understand how it
= > is made? Can do mayonnaise, but not Miracle Whip. Balut
= > and durian do not seem very interesting, particularly balut.
=
= Miracle Whip is a factory product that you can't exactly
= duplicate at home. It's an evolution of "salad dressing" and
= there are lots of recipes out there for it.
= <http://www.recipezaar.com/41781>
=
= And balut is not interesting. Really not interesting.
=
= > One thing I have always liked is a fried baloney sandwich on
= > sourdough bread, with Miracle Whip and kimchee.
=
= Not a combination I've ever had. I don't especially like
= Miracle Whip. I find the sweetness offputting. When I was a
= kid, one of our neighbors used to make us Miracle Whip
= sandwiches on Wonder bread. We thought they were terrific.

Interesting. I, too, grew up with Miracle Whip. Indeed, I was a
not-so-young adult before I realized that it isn't mayonnaise (which
is what my family called it) -- simply never thought about the
possibility that there was actually something else. 'Course we
lived in the sticks, one of the myriad hollows in the northern
panhandle of WEST-by-gawd-Virginia.

I'm surprised that you find it sweet. To this day, I still prefer
it to mayonnaise because, to my palate, it has a tang that's lacking
in mayonnaise (which I find bland). To me, Miracle Whip has almost a
tartness that I like. I'm speaking of store-bought and/or restaurant
mayonnaise, here. Don't know that I've ever tried home-made.

[...]


--
Charlie Sorsby

Edgewood, NM 87015
USA

Bob (this one) wrote:

> Jerry, you posted two references, both of which I dealt
> with, and took it further to full explanation of why I made
> the assertions. You've just repeated your initial notion
> that because you did it, it was right. Carpaccio should be
> red meat on a plate - to echo the color palette of the
> painter Carpaccio, as originally construed at Harry's Bar.

The same Harry's that developed "Fettucini(e) Alfredo" I imagine....

Well, I suppose this was a reflection on the aspects of raw, and thin
slices. The same can be said of positing that a strawberry shortcake
becomes a napoleon, or a moldless trifle. I think the appelation
"-tini" now applies to just about anything, I"ve seen a "cheesecaketini"
which was simply a cream cheese mousseline poured into martini glass and
garnished with piece of candied fruit on a toothpick.

I *believe* it was Pierre Troisgrois (sp?) who was known for telling
jokes with dishes, such as his salmon scallopine--he was playing on
large flat disks of flesh and referring to "leg of salmon" which some
would find amusing.

The problem is when someone doesn't realize they're pulling the finger
and takes themselves too seriously.

B/

On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 11:48:27 -0700, Brian Mailman
> wrote:

>Bob (this one) wrote:
>
>> Jerry, you posted two references, both of which I dealt
>> with, and took it further to full explanation of why I made
>> the assertions. You've just repeated your initial notion
>> that because you did it, it was right. Carpaccio should be
>> red meat on a plate - to echo the color palette of the
>> painter Carpaccio, as originally construed at Harry's Bar.
>
>The same Harry's that developed "Fettucini(e) Alfredo" I imagine....
>
>Well, I suppose this was a reflection on the aspects of raw, and thin
>slices. The same can be said of positing that a strawberry shortcake
>becomes a napoleon, or a moldless trifle. I think the appelation
>"-tini" now applies to just about anything, I"ve seen a "cheesecaketini"
>which was simply a cream cheese mousseline poured into martini glass and
>garnished with piece of candied fruit on a toothpick.
>
>I *believe* it was Pierre Troisgrois (sp?) who was known for telling
>jokes with dishes, such as his salmon scallopine--he was playing on
>large flat disks of flesh and referring to "leg of salmon" which some
>would find amusing.
>
>The problem is when someone doesn't realize they're pulling the finger
>and takes themselves too seriously.
>
>B/


Except that Vegetable Carpaccio is not unknown in Italy, nor is it any
sort of food joke.

The web page below gives a recipe for Carpaccio Vegetale.

*********************************************
http://www.globalgourmet.com/food/sp...carpaccio.html

Vegetable Carpaccio
Carpaccio Vegetale

Robbio is a farming town in Lombardy, near Alessandria, not too far
from the Piedmont border. In the heart of rice-growing country, Robbio
is surrounded by paddies, which produce Italy's famed Baldo, Arbono,
and Carnaroli rice. Da Mino, a small restaurant located in the center
of town, specializes in typical rural dishes of the area, and I was
particularly taken by Chef Enrica Abatte's unusual fresh vegetable
carpaccio. Made with produce from the garden of Pietro Lorizzo, her
husband and the restaurants owner, the macerated paper-thin vegetables
came to the table lightly chilled, tender, and full of texture and
flavor.

When I have the time, I prepare the carpaccio as they do at Da Mino,
but when I don't want to wait, I simply toss all the vegetables and
seasonings together and serve it immediately. The styles are
different; both are delicious. Try this with a light, luscious, and
dry red, such as Bonarda dell'Oltrepó Pavese.


4 medium zucchini, trimmed and
cut into paper-thin rounds
2 teaspoons best-quality red wine vinegar
2 small red bell peppers, stemmed, seeds and pith
removed, cut into paper-thin strips
Fine sea salt
Freshly ground black pepper (optional)
2 cups arugula, rinsed, patted dry,
and torn into bite-size pieces
2 ounces Parmigiano-Reggiano, shaved
into paper-thin curls (see Segreti)
2 tablespoons extra-virgin olive oil


1. Cover the bottom of a 12-inch round nonreactive dish with a layer
of the zucchini, using half the rounds, slightly over-lapping them in
concentric circles. Using a pastry brush, brush half the vinegar as
evenly as possible over the zucchini. Scatter half the bell pepper
slices over the zucchini, then season lightly with salt and, if
desired, black pepper. Arrange half the arugula leaves on top with
half the Parmesan cheese curls. Drizzle with half the olive oil and
season lightly again with salt and, if desired, pepper. Repeat the
layers using the remaining ingredients.

2. Cover the dish tightly with aluminum foil and refrigerate for 18 to
24 hours. Remove from the refrigerator about 15 minutes before
serving.

Segreti
To shave Parmesan cheese, use a vegetable peeler and simply "peel" the
curls from the hunk of cheese, holding it right over the salad.


*******************************

And here is a restaurant in Italy that has it on its menu:

http://www.aeolia.com/menu/1991/06menu.htm

Boron

On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 16:58:34 -0400, Boron Elgar
> wrote:

>On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 11:48:27 -0700, Brian Mailman
> wrote:
>
>>Bob (this one) wrote:

>>I *believe* it was Pierre Troisgrois (sp?) who was known for telling
>>jokes with dishes, such as his salmon scallopine--he was playing on
>>large flat disks of flesh and referring to "leg of salmon" which some
>>would find amusing.
>>
>>The problem is when someone doesn't realize they're pulling the finger
>>and takes themselves too seriously.

>Except that Vegetable Carpaccio is not unknown in Italy, nor is it any
>sort of food joke.
>
>The web page below gives a recipe for Carpaccio Vegetale.

Of course, these Italians, if they _really are_ Italians, are
obviously poseurs and take themselves too seriously. "Carpaccio
Vegetale", indeed.

Boron Elgar wrote:
> [snip preceding]
> Except that Vegetable Carpaccio is not unknown in Italy, nor is it any
> sort of food joke.
>
> The web page below gives a recipe for Carpaccio Vegetale.
>
> *********************************************
> http://www.globalgourmet.com/food/sp...carpaccio.html
>
> Vegetable Carpaccio
> Carpaccio Vegetale

[snip article and recipe]

> And here is a restaurant in Italy that has it on its menu:
>
> http://www.aeolia.com/menu/1991/06menu.htm
>
> Boron

Oh, he probably already knows that he's fighting a rearguard action
against a change in languages [English and Italian] that is well under
way. We've all seen many examples of specific names morphing into
descriptives for semi-related things. It's quite like the way brand
names and trademarks become generic words, notwithstanding the efforts
of trademark lawyers. I've made similar objections a number of times
here in rfc, usually saying something like, "That sounds like an
interesting recipe, but don't call it ___[some misappropriated
name]_____ , make up a new name for it."

He's only recently been revisiting rfc anyway, and probably didn't
really feel at home until he tried to pick a fight. -aem

On 21 Aug 2006 14:32:24 -0700, "aem" > wrote:

>Boron Elgar wrote:
>> [snip preceding]
>> Except that Vegetable Carpaccio is not unknown in Italy, nor is it any
>> sort of food joke.
>>
>> The web page below gives a recipe for Carpaccio Vegetale.
>>
>> *********************************************
>> http://www.globalgourmet.com/food/sp...carpaccio.html
>>
>> Vegetable Carpaccio
>> Carpaccio Vegetale
>
> [snip article and recipe]
>
>> And here is a restaurant in Italy that has it on its menu:
>>
>> http://www.aeolia.com/menu/1991/06menu.htm
>>
>> Boron
>
>Oh, he probably already knows that he's fighting a rearguard action
>against a change in languages [English and Italian] that is well under
>way. We've all seen many examples of specific names morphing into
>descriptives for semi-related things. It's quite like the way brand
>names and trademarks become generic words, notwithstanding the efforts
>of trademark lawyers. I've made similar objections a number of times
>here in rfc, usually saying something like, "That sounds like an
>interesting recipe, but don't call it ___[some misappropriated
>name]_____ , make up a new name for it."
>
>He's only recently been revisiting rfc anyway, and probably didn't
>really feel at home until he tried to pick a fight. -aem


I feel that Jerry is real delight and swell fellow. He deserves the
defense.

Frankly, I have Past-o in the KF.

Boron

Brian Mailman wrote:

> The same Harry's that developed "Fettucini(e) Alfredo" I imagine....

Might want to check that reference...

Pastorio

Bob (this one) wrote:

> Brian Mailman wrote:
>
>> The same Harry's that developed "Fettucini(e) Alfredo" I imagine....
>
> Might want to check that reference...

The Dictionary of American Food and Drink.... Harry's Bar (Rome), 1922.

B/

Brian Mailman wrote:
> Bob (this one) wrote:
>
>> Brian Mailman wrote:
>>
>>> The same Harry's that developed "Fettucini(e) Alfredo" I imagine....
>>
>> Might want to check that reference...
>
> The Dictionary of American Food and Drink.... Harry's Bar (Rome), 1922.

Dictionary is wrong on place and time. Written by John
Mariani who contradicts himself, below, 16 years later.

"Harry's Bar Rome was born in 1959, took its name only in
1962 but the café existed since 1918. It was the Golden Gate
Confectioner's, quoted in many books. At the end of the
Twenties it became part of the De Gasperis' family until
1958, the very year it cake to be American Bar Restaurant."
Complete with typos... <http://www.harrysbar.it/home.htm>

"Fettucini Alfredo....A dish of fettuccini egg noodles mixed
with butter, Parmesean cheese, and cream. The dish has been
a staple of Italian-American restaurants since the
mid-1960s. It was created in 1914 by Alfred Di Lelio, who
opened a restaurant in Rome, Italy, under his first name on
the Via della Scrofa in 1910. The dish supposedly helped
restore the appetite of his wife after she gave birth to
their son. The original dish was made with a very rich
triple butter Di Lelio made himself, three kinds of four,
and only the heart of the best parmigiano. Fettuccini
all'Alfredo became famous after Hollywood movie actors
Douglas Fairbanks and Mary Pickford ate the dish at
Alfredo's restaurant while on their honeymoon in
1927...After World War II Di Lelio moved to the Piazza
Augusto Imperatore, and in the 1950s his restaurant became a
mecca for visiting Americans, most of whom came to sample
fettuccini Alfredo...Because most cooks could not reproduce
the richness of the original butter, today the dish almost
always contains heavy cream."
---Encyclopedia of American Food and Drink, John F. Mariani
[Lebhar-Friedman:New York] 1999 (p. 126)
Complete with typos.

"The story goes that while honeymooning in Rome in 1927,
Douglas Fairbanks and Mary Pickford dined almost daily on
this rich pasta at Alfredo's restaurant, and in gratitude,
presented restauranteur Alfredo Di Lelio with a golden pasta
fork and spoon at the end of their stay. Journalists picked
up the story and spread news of Fettucchine Alfredo across
the Atlantic. Before long, American chefs were imporvising.
According to Marie Simmons...food writer who is of Italian
heritage, an authentic Fettuccini Alfredo is not tricked out
with cream or mushrooms or green peas or garlic. It's a mix
of sweet creamery butter, Parmigiano-Reggiano, homemade
fettuccini, and black pepper. Nothing more, nothing less."
---The American Century Cookbook: The Most Popular Recipes
of the 20th Century, Jean Anderson [Clarkson Potter:New
York] 1997 (p. 213)
Complete with typos.

"Carpaccio was invented by Giuseppe Cipriani in 1950 at
Harry's Bar in Venice, Italy. It was named for the
Renaissance painter Vittore Carpaccio who was noted for his
use of red in his paintings. Thin sliced raw beef served
with a cold vinaigrette made with olive oil, or just olive
oil and lemon juice (and sometimes Parmesan cheese).
Generally served on a bed of greens such as watercresss,
endive, arugula and/or radicchio."
<http://www.foodreference.com/html/fcarpaccio.html>

Pastorio

On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 08:18:46 -0400, "Bob (this one)" >
wrote:

> I note that you've just bragged about your web
>site, but above you say you "have no need to impress anyone
>here." Perhaps a tiny contradiction.
>
Pastorio....arguing on the Internet is like running in the Special
Olympics. .......and you know the rest.

Self appointed "experts" abound...and it doesn't take much to figure
out the contributors that are just looking for attention that was
lacking in their life as a child.

"Hey everybody...look at what I can do...."

Jerry DeAngelis wrote:
>
> When you have 1.3 million visitors a year to your website - from all
> parts of the world - you can crow a bit.

I hate to tell ya, but I suspect a large number of those are merely
people curious to see if you are as much of a pompous ass as your
writing makes you out to be...

-L.