I've inherited a large quantity of very low protein pastry flour that I'm trying to make pizza from by combining with vital wheat gluten. I've tried varying ratios of VWG to pastry flour along with varying levels of hydration and no matter what I do, I'm not getting an extensible dough/proper sheeting. From the moment the VWG starts hydrating it acts like torn/overworked/lumpy dough and appears to stay that way for the duration of the baking process.

I normally work with a bromated high protein spring wheat flour and after it's been allowed to hydrate a bit, it's pretty much insta-sheeting/perfection every time. Is VWG damaged gluten? And if, so, is this damage irreversible? If not, are there ways of encouraging VWG to be more extensible?

Can VWG be left out in the open air to oxidize like you would regular flour? Will this make a difference?

My regular bread flour dough gets a 15-20 min autolyse. 30 minutes seemed to have very little effect on the VWG version. Would an overnight autolyse help? Besides an extended autolyse, would an overnight cold proof help the gluten hydrate?

I like the flavors I get from a long cool rise so I've been taking this route with the VWG. Will reverting to a warm proof give me additional extensibility?

Does ascorbic acid help with extensibility? Rye bread is made with VWG, correct? Does the acid formed during the souring process aid in extensibility?

Because the VWG dough appears to be overworked/torn right off the bat, my natural inclination is not to knead it any more. Should I ignore this impulse and knead it aggressively like I would normal dough? I've tried kneading/not kneading, but the results have been pretty much the same- lumpy, easily torn dough.

Scott 123 wrote
..I've inherited a large quantity of very low protein pastry flour that
>I'm trying to make pizza from by combining with vital wheat gluten.
>I've tried varying ratios of VWG to pastry flour along with varying
>levels of hydration and no matter what I do, I'm not getting an
>extensible dough/proper sheeting. From the moment the VWG starts
>hydrating it acts like torn/overworked/lumpy dough and appears to stay
>that way for the duration of the baking process.

If you fortify your lower protein flour with vital wheat gluten you are
unlikely to get the same extensibility as the normal high protein
flour. One reason is the gluten quality of low protein and high protein
flour are not the same. There is a variance in protein characteristics.
Another factor is the usual ack of enzymatic activity with lower gluten
flours
Adding more water during mixing to soften it will also help....

>I normally work with a bromated high protein spring wheat flour and
>after it's been allowed to hydrate a bit, it's pretty much
>insta-sheeting/perfection every time. Is VWG damaged gluten? And if,
>so, is this damage irreversible? If not, are there ways of encouraging
>VWG to be more extensible?

VWG is still intact protein suited for fortifying weaker flours but the
extensibility will not be equal due to some other factors. Adding
diastatic malt to the lower protein wheat gluten combination will make
it extensible enough for sheeting but ensure first that the dough is
normally hydrated.

>Can VWG be left out in the open air to oxidize like you would regular
>flour? Will this make a difference?

VWG is pretty stable to storage and inert to oxidation; unless its
stored at elevated temperatures where the protein will gradually
denature in time affecting its functionality in breadmaking.

>My regular bread flour dough gets a 15-20 min autolyse. 30 minutes
>seemed to have very little effect on the VWG version

Autolyse just enable the flour to hydrate completely making it loose
and extensible.

> Would an
>overnight autolyse help?

Much extended autolyze is seldom done in the bakery so its impractical
but theoretically it should loosen up the gluten in your case.

>Besides an extended autolyse, . would an
>overnight cold proof help the gluten hydrate?

This is another weird terminology practiced by home bakers; its more of
a refrigerated fermentation in bakers parlance (in the presence of
yeast) will not only hydrate the flour but also allowing biochemical
activity as well.
Trying to improve the bad situation by allowing the dough to
equilibrate itself is a waste of time if compared to addressing the
problem at the moment of dough preparation

Normal high gluten flour is malted or enzyme active but low protein
flour enriched with gluten usually has low diastatic activity.; the
remedy add diastatic malt to the flour gluten mixture. The proteases in
the malt will tenderize the gluten making it extensible, however there
is a word of caution not all flours will behave equally to this
treatment and you have to check for your self.
Another thing is adding more malt is not recommended as it will make
the dough sticky, there is a point that optimum for a certain flour and
that is proven by actual tests.

>I like the flavors I get from a long cool rise so I've been taking this
>route with the VWG. Will reverting to a warm proof give me additional
>extensibility?

Warm proofing tends to tighten underhydrated dough preventing even
expansion.

>Does ascorbic acid help with extensibility?

Nope, it will tighten the gluten,...... but diastatic malt ...will.

>Rye bread is made with VWG,

Some version of rye bread contains gluten fortifications

>Does the acid formed during the souring process aid in
>extensibility?

To a certain extent ...

>Because the VWG dough appears to be overworked/torn right off the bat,
>my natural inclination is not to knead it any more. Should I ignore
>this impulse and knead it aggressively like I would normal dough? I've
>tried kneading/not kneading, but the results have been pretty much the
>same- lumpy, easily torn dough.

The gluten enriched lower protein flour tends to be tight partly due
to lack of enzymatic activity and also to improper hydration

Take note also that as you add more gluten the hydration is also higher
so one reason for the tight dough is it needs more water.
Kneading it aggressively will tire you easily.....its not worth it
using it to solve defective dough.

Scott 123 wrote
..I've inherited a large quantity of very low protein pastry flour that
>I'm trying to make pizza from by combining with vital wheat gluten.
>I've tried varying ratios of VWG to pastry flour along with varying
>levels of hydration and no matter what I do, I'm not getting an
>extensible dough/proper sheeting. From the moment the VWG starts
>hydrating it acts like torn/overworked/lumpy dough and appears to stay
>that way for the duration of the baking process.

If you fortify your lower protein flour with vital wheat gluten you are
unlikely to get the same extensibility as the normal high protein
flour. One reason is the gluten quality of low protein and high protein
flour are not the same. There is a variance in protein characteristics.
Adding more water during mixing to soften it will also help....

>I normally work with a bromated high protein spring wheat flour and
>after it's been allowed to hydrate a bit, it's pretty much
>insta-sheeting/perfection every time. Is VWG damaged gluten? And if,
>so, is this damage irreversible? If not, are there ways of encouraging
>VWG to be more extensible?

VWG is still intact protein suited for fortifying weaker flours but the
extensibility will not be equal due to some other factors. Adding
diastatic malt to the lower protein wheat gluten combination will make
it extensible enough for sheeting but ensure first that the dough is
normally hydrated.

>Can VWG be left out in the open air to oxidize like you would regular
>flour? Will this make a difference?

VWG is pretty stable to storage and inert to oxidation; unless its
stored at elevated temperatures where the protein will gradually
denature affecting its functionality in breadmaking.

>My regular bread flour dough gets a 15-20 min autolyse. 30 minutes
>seemed to have very little effect on the VWG version. Would an
>overnight autolyse help? Besides an extended autolyse, would an
>overnight cold proof help the gluten hydrate?

Normal high gluten flour is malted or enzyme active but low protein
flour enriched with gluten usually has low diastatic activity.; the
remedy add diastatic malt to the flour gluten mixture. The proteases in
the malt will tenderize the gluten making it extensible, however there
is a word of caution not all flours will behave equally to this
treatment and you have to check for your self.
Another things is adding more malt is not recommended as it will make
the dough sticky, there is a point that optimum for a certain flour.

>I like the flavors I get from a long cool rise so I've been taking this
>route with the VWG. Will reverting to a warm proof give me additional
>extensibility?

Warm proofing tends to tighten underhydrated dough preventing even
expansion.

>Does ascorbic acid help with extensibility?

Nope, it will tighten the gluten,...... but diastatic malt ...will.

>Rye bread is made with VWG,

Some version of rye bread contains gluten fortifications

>Does the acid formed during the souring process aid in
>extensibility?

To a certain extent ...

>Because the VWG dough appears to be overworked/torn right off the bat,
>my natural inclination is not to knead it any more. Should I ignore
>this impulse and knead it aggressively like I would normal dough? I've
>tried kneading/not kneading, but the results have been pretty much the
>same- lumpy, easily torn dough.

The gluten enriched lower protein flour tends to be tight partly due
to lack of enzymatic activity and also to improper hydration

Take note also that as you add more gluten the hydration is also higher
so one reason for the tight dough is it needs more water.