I'm completely new to baking, so I decided to start by making a basic
loaf of bread. I proofed the yeast, checked the water temp first at 110
F, did all the kneading, placed it in a warm place. Over two hours
later it had finally risen somewhat, at least enough to where it had
probably doubled, so I punched it down again, put it in the pan, and
over an hour later I'm still waiting for it to rise enough in the pan.

I think I'm doing everything right, but being so new I'm not sure. Any
ideas as to what might be going on, or that I can do differently?
Thanks.

"Nomdeplume1" > wrote in message
news:9hFvf.178$ID1.32@trndny01...
> I'm completely new to baking, so I decided to start by making a basic
> loaf of bread. I proofed the yeast, checked the water temp first at 110
> F, did all the kneading, placed it in a warm place. Over two hours
> later it had finally risen somewhat, at least enough to where it had
> probably doubled, so I punched it down again, put it in the pan, and
> over an hour later I'm still waiting for it to rise enough in the pan.
>
> I think I'm doing everything right, but being so new I'm not sure. Any
> ideas as to what might be going on, or that I can do differently?
> Thanks.

It sounds OK to me. There are two requirement for bread to rise: Active
yeast and a gluten network to contain the C02. The warmer the environment,
the faster the rise but a long, slow rise produces better tasting bread.

For a better gluten, you can use high protein (bread) flour and knead
adequately. Sugar and fat interfere with gluten formation so start by
making a basic bread that contains only flour, water, salt, and yeast. Once
you have that down, you can more on to richer dough. As for the yeast, I
prefer instant active yeast. You don't have to (and probably shouldn't)
hydrate or proof it. You simply mix it with the flour and other dry
ingredients and then add your liquid. The yeast can take temperature up to
130F so it is harder to kill.

This time of year it is cold in much of the US. You can expect dough left
in normal room temperature to take longer to rise. If you are in a hurry,
you can turn your oven on for about two minutes and then turn it off and put
your dough inside to rise. Another good proofing box is your microwave.
You can put a container of water in and bring it to a boil. Then (with the
microwave off) put the dough in with the hot water. The warm, moist
environment is an ideal place for the dough to ferment.

Thanks for your suggestions. I'm going to make a loaf today using the
instant yeast and see how that works out. Everyone I have asked,
including this group, seems to think I am doing things right so far, so
I am coming to the conclusion that it has something to do with the
yeast. I am using bread flour BTW, King Arthur. My wife thought it was
the best flour she had used, and she was pennies short of being a full
blown chef. Sadly, she passed away 2 years ago, so that's why I'm trying
to learn to bake. Anyway, I'll let you know how today's bread turns out.

Thanks,

Nom

"Vox Humana" > wrote in message
.. .
:
: "Nomdeplume1" > wrote in message
: news:9hFvf.178$ID1.32@trndny01...
: > I'm completely new to baking, so I decided to start by making a
basic
: > loaf of bread. I proofed the yeast, checked the water temp first at
110
: > F, did all the kneading, placed it in a warm place. Over two hours
: > later it had finally risen somewhat, at least enough to where it had
: > probably doubled, so I punched it down again, put it in the pan, and
: > over an hour later I'm still waiting for it to rise enough in the
pan.
: >
: > I think I'm doing everything right, but being so new I'm not sure.
Any
: > ideas as to what might be going on, or that I can do differently?
: > Thanks.
:
: It sounds OK to me. There are two requirement for bread to rise:
Active
: yeast and a gluten network to contain the C02. The warmer the
environment,
: the faster the rise but a long, slow rise produces better tasting
bread.
:
: For a better gluten, you can use high protein (bread) flour and knead
: adequately. Sugar and fat interfere with gluten formation so start by
: making a basic bread that contains only flour, water, salt, and yeast.
Once
: you have that down, you can more on to richer dough. As for the
yeast, I
: prefer instant active yeast. You don't have to (and probably
shouldn't)
: hydrate or proof it. You simply mix it with the flour and other dry
: ingredients and then add your liquid. The yeast can take temperature
up to
: 130F so it is harder to kill.
:
: This time of year it is cold in much of the US. You can expect dough
left
: in normal room temperature to take longer to rise. If you are in a
hurry,
: you can turn your oven on for about two minutes and then turn it off
and put
: your dough inside to rise. Another good proofing box is your
microwave.
: You can put a container of water in and bring it to a boil. Then
(with the
: microwave off) put the dough in with the hot water. The warm, moist
: environment is an ideal place for the dough to ferment.
:
:

TEST

On 1/8/06, Nomdeplume1 > wrote:
>
> Thanks for your suggestions. I'm going to make a loaf today using the
> instant yeast and see how that works out. Everyone I have asked,
> including this group, seems to think I am doing things right so far, so
> I am coming to the conclusion that it has something to do with the
> yeast.


The most common issue for beginning bakers is using too much flour.
Beginning bakers feel the dough shouldn' t be sticky, and that leaves the
yeast trying to raise something much like concrete.

If you try again, use about 2/3 to 3/4 the amount of flour called for in the
recipe. Then add more a tablespoon at a time, pretending you are Scrooge
and flour costs as much as saffron ("The most expensive spice in the
world"). You want to add enough flour that the dough would rather stick to
itself than to you or the table, but the dough should still be sticky. Not
satiny... or any of the other cute words some cookbooks use.

Hope this helps,
Mike

Nom-

I'm sorry to hear of your loss. I'm sure your wife would be delighted
to know you are carrying on her work in the kitchen :-)

To follow up a bit on Mike's comment

Mike Avery wrote:

> The most common issue for beginning bakers is using too much flour.
> Beginning bakers feel the dough shouldn' t be sticky, and that leaves the
> yeast trying to raise something much like concrete.

I love Shirley Corriher's materials on flours in her food science book
_Cookwise : The Secrets of Cooking Revealed_ You might find it an
interesting read. I also love King Arthur flour, tho I use their AP
which has a protein level up with other mills bread flour.

If it happens that your recipe was written for AP flour and you are
instead using a high protein bread flour then your flour will be
absorbing more liquid than the AP would have absorbed, leaving you with
a drier dough. I encourage you to get Shirley's great book out of the
library but this web site also refers to this topic using her as their
reference: " For example, a batter made with 2 cups of high-protein
flour absorb 1 cup of water to form a soft, sticky dough. The same
recipe made with 2 cups low-protein flour and 1 cup water make a thick
soup. " http://www.baking911.com/pantry/flour,grains2.htm

This came home to me very clearly this fall when I had been reading
her section on flour after I came home from BBGA Camp Bread with a new
interest in flour. Twice I made a scone recipe I make all the time for
my family and found it was way wet. The light bulb went off with the
second batch. I realized I was using bulk organic AP instead of the KA
AP I had been using up til then. I knew from reading Corriher that KA
AP was a higher protein content and I knew from her that that would
mean it would absorb more liquid. I knew therefore that clearly from
my sloppy scone mixture the bulk AP was a lower protein content than
the KA.

One other possible thing is you might have over kneaded the dough if
you are kneading by machine. Overkneading would damage the gluten net
that holds the gases allowing bread rise.

Enjoy!
-Marylouise

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Nom-
>
> I'm sorry to hear of your loss. I'm sure your wife would be delighted
> to know you are carrying on her work in the kitchen :-)
>
> To follow up a bit on Mike's comment
>
> Mike Avery wrote:
>
> > The most common issue for beginning bakers is using too much flour.
> > Beginning bakers feel the dough shouldn' t be sticky, and that leaves
the
> > yeast trying to raise something much like concrete.
>
> I love Shirley Corriher's materials on flours in her food science book
> _Cookwise : The Secrets of Cooking Revealed_ You might find it an
> interesting read. I also love King Arthur flour, tho I use their AP
> which has a protein level up with other mills bread flour.
>
> If it happens that your recipe was written for AP flour and you are
> instead using a high protein bread flour then your flour will be
> absorbing more liquid than the AP would have absorbed, leaving you with
> a drier dough. I encourage you to get Shirley's great book out of the
> library but this web site also refers to this topic using her as their
> reference: " For example, a batter made with 2 cups of high-protein
> flour absorb 1 cup of water to form a soft, sticky dough. The same
> recipe made with 2 cups low-protein flour and 1 cup water make a thick
> soup. " http://www.baking911.com/pantry/flour,grains2.htm
>
> This came home to me very clearly this fall when I had been reading
> her section on flour after I came home from BBGA Camp Bread with a new
> interest in flour. Twice I made a scone recipe I make all the time for
> my family and found it was way wet. The light bulb went off with the
> second batch. I realized I was using bulk organic AP instead of the KA
> AP I had been using up til then. I knew from reading Corriher that KA
> AP was a higher protein content and I knew from her that that would
> mean it would absorb more liquid. I knew therefore that clearly from
> my sloppy scone mixture the bulk AP was a lower protein content than
> the KA.
>
> One other possible thing is you might have over kneaded the dough if
> you are kneading by machine. Overkneading would damage the gluten net
> that holds the gases allowing bread rise.
>
> Enjoy!
> -Marylouise
>

As I recall, Ms. Corriher addresses this issue in that book and says that
over-kneading is unlikely, but discusses a phenomena called "de-mixing" or
the like. She asserts this is observed when one alternates between high and
low speed when using a mixer to knead dough. I also think it is unlikely
that some would over-kneed dough in a home kitchen.

I have used all the various brands of flour available in my area including
King Arthur. I have come to the conclusion that there is very little
difference between the $3.00 bag of KA flour and the 79 cent bag of house
brand flour at Aldi.

Vox Humana wrote:

> As I recall, Ms. Corriher addresses this issue in that book and says that
> over-kneading is unlikely, but discusses a phenomena called "de-mixing" or
> the like. She asserts this is observed when one alternates between high and
> low speed when using a mixer to knead dough. I also think it is unlikely
> that some would over-kneed dough in a home kitchen.

I attempted to "overknead" once just to see if it was possible.
I've never been able to actually accomplish it, as least as
far as her description goes.

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com

"Reg" > wrote in message
...
> Vox Humana wrote:
>
> > As I recall, Ms. Corriher addresses this issue in that book and says
that
> > over-kneading is unlikely, but discusses a phenomena called "de-mixing"
or
> > the like. She asserts this is observed when one alternates between high
and
> > low speed when using a mixer to knead dough. I also think it is
unlikely
> > that some would over-kneed dough in a home kitchen.
>
> I attempted to "overknead" once just to see if it was possible.
> I've never been able to actually accomplish it, as least as
> far as her description goes.
>

Same here. I have run the stand mixer for 15 minutes on speed 4 without a
problem. The FP can have issues of excessive heat generated from the
friction of the blade. I'm sure that a prolonged session in the FP could
result in problems both for the dough and probably an over-heated motor.

Check the expiration date if you use the little dry yeast packets. I
found a lot of mine were mostly dead. I never did find out why they
were bad but I switched to a block yeast from the local baker.

I found that to get the specified rise in the time mentioned "warm"
meant 90 - 110 degrees.

I built a little proof box from an old mini-refrigerator and an old
electric frypan. Provides a good temp and humidity.

If you are proofing at room temp you should place a damp towel over the
pan to keep the surface of the dough from drying out.

An update:

I switched to the "RapidRise" yeast, and instead of proofing it first, I
added it directly to the flour, and doing everything else the same way.
This seemed to do the trick, because the loaf rose well, and baked very
nicely. I think this is the way I will do it from now on. I may try the
other way again in the future when I have more experience.

As for kneading, as mentioned in this thread, I knead the dough by hand.
Sure, it's more work, but it's great for getting out a few aggressions.

Thanks to everyone for their help and suggestions.

Nom
"Nomdeplume1" > wrote in message
news:9hFvf.178$ID1.32@trndny01...
: I'm completely new to baking, so I decided to start by making a basic
: loaf of bread. I proofed the yeast, checked the water temp first at
110
: F, did all the kneading, placed it in a warm place. Over two hours
: later it had finally risen somewhat, at least enough to where it had
: probably doubled, so I punched it down again, put it in the pan, and
: over an hour later I'm still waiting for it to rise enough in the pan.
:
: I think I'm doing everything right, but being so new I'm not sure. Any
: ideas as to what might be going on, or that I can do differently?
: Thanks.
:
: