Im using this recipe trying to make rolls. Twice ive tried the recipe
and both times im extremely frustrated. The first time i thought i
overworked the dough. The second time i made sure i didnt over work the
dough. Both times it was like a trampoline! I couldnt roll out the
rolls either time without them pulling right back. The second time i
left the dough a little wetter so the flaps joined better but the rolls
just melded into one. Ive made bread before without issue, but getting
the dough right has always been a challenge.

Anyone who says learning to bake bread is easy is on crack!
Heeeelllllllllpppppp pleeeeeeease!

Recipe below......
Ingredients
2 tablespoons active dry yeast
1 tablespoon white sugar
2 1/2 cups warm water (110 degrees F/45 degrees C)
2 tablespoons shortening
2 teaspoons salt
7 cups bread flour
3 egg whites, stiffly beaten
1 tablespoon cold milk
1 egg white
1 cup ice cubes


Directions
1 In a small bowl, dissolve yeast and sugar in warm water. Let stand
until creamy, about 10 minutes.

2 In a large bowl, combine the yeast mixture with the shortening, salt
and 3 cups flour; beat well for 2 minutes. Fold in egg whites. Stir in
the remaining flour, 1/2 cup at a time, beating well after each
addition. When the dough has pulled together, turn it out onto a
lightly floured surface and knead until smooth and supple, about 8
minutes. Lightly oil a large
bowl, place the dough in the bowl and turn to coat with oil. Cover with
a damp cloth and let rise in a warm place until doubled in volume,
about 1 hour. Punch down, cover and let rise again until doubled, about
45 minutes.

3 Deflate the dough and turn it out onto a lightly oiled surface.
Divide the dough into 16 equal pieces and form into rounds. Use a
rolling pin to flatten each piece into a 7 inch circle. Fold left side
to center to form a flap. Halfway down flap fold again to center to
form another flap. Repeat all the way around to make overlapping flaps.
Lift the first flap to ease
the last flap underneath. Press center to seal the dough. Place rolls
seam side down and 3 inches apart onto a well greased baking sheets.
This helps the rolls to keep their shape. Let rise 30 minutes, turn
right side up, let rise 15 more minutes. Cover the rolls with a damp
cloth and let rise until doubled in volume, about 40 minutes.
Meanwhile, preheat oven to 425 degrees
F (220 degrees C) and place a shallow pan on the bottom shelf of the
oven.

4 In a small bowl, beat together the milk with the remaining egg white.
Lightly brush the rolls with this egg wash. Place 1 cup of ice cubes in
the heated pan in oven.

5 Bake rolls immediately in preheated oven for 15 to 20 minutes, until
golden brown. Move to wire racks to cool.

I forgot to mentione i couldnt see wasting the fill amount so i cut the
ingredients in half so if it failed i only wsted half.....
1 tablespoons active dry yeast
1/2 tablespoon white sugar
1 1/4 cups warm water (110 degrees F/45 degrees C)
1 tablespoons shortening
1 teaspoons salt
3 1/2 cups bread flour
2 egg whites, stiffly beaten
1/2 tablespoon cold milk
1 egg white
1 cup ice cubes

On Nov 4, 4:10 pm, "nogoer" > wrote:
> Im using this recipe trying to make rolls. Twice ive tried the recipe
> and both times im extremely frustrated. The first time i thought i
> overworked the dough. The second time i made sure i didnt over work the
> dough. Both times it was like a trampoline! I couldnt roll out the
> rolls either time without them pulling right back. The second time i
> left the dough a little wetter so the flaps joined better but the rolls
> just melded into one. Ive made bread before without issue, but getting
> the dough right has always been a challenge.
>
> Anyone who says learning to bake bread is easy is on crack!
> Heeeelllllllllpppppp pleeeeeeease!
>
> Recipe below......
> Ingredients
> 2 tablespoons active dry yeast
> 1 tablespoon white sugar
> 2 1/2 cups warm water (110 degrees F/45 degrees C)
> 2 tablespoons shortening
> 2 teaspoons salt
> 7 cups bread flour
> 3 egg whites, stiffly beaten
> 1 tablespoon cold milk
> 1 egg white
> 1 cup ice cubes
>
> Directions
> 1 In a small bowl, dissolve yeast and sugar in warm water. Let stand
> until creamy, about 10 minutes.
>
> 2 In a large bowl, combine the yeast mixture with the shortening, salt
> and 3 cups flour; beat well for 2 minutes. Fold in egg whites. Stir in
> the remaining flour, 1/2 cup at a time, beating well after each
> addition. When the dough has pulled together, turn it out onto a
> lightly floured surface and knead until smooth and supple, about 8
> minutes. Lightly oil a large
> bowl, place the dough in the bowl and turn to coat with oil. Cover with
> a damp cloth and let rise in a warm place until doubled in volume,
> about 1 hour. Punch down, cover and let rise again until doubled, about
> 45 minutes.
>
> 3 Deflate the dough and turn it out onto a lightly oiled surface.
> Divide the dough into 16 equal pieces and form into rounds. Use a
> rolling pin to flatten each piece into a 7 inch circle. Fold left side
> to center to form a flap. Halfway down flap fold again to center to
> form another flap. Repeat all the way around to make overlapping flaps.
> Lift the first flap to ease
> the last flap underneath. Press center to seal the dough. Place rolls
> seam side down and 3 inches apart onto a well greased baking sheets.
> This helps the rolls to keep their shape. Let rise 30 minutes, turn
> right side up, let rise 15 more minutes. Cover the rolls with a damp
> cloth and let rise until doubled in volume, about 40 minutes.
> Meanwhile, preheat oven to 425 degrees
> F (220 degrees C) and place a shallow pan on the bottom shelf of the
> oven.
>
> 4 In a small bowl, beat together the milk with the remaining egg white.
> Lightly brush the rolls with this egg wash. Place 1 cup of ice cubes in
> the heated pan in oven.
>
> 5 Bake rolls immediately in preheated oven for 15 to 20 minutes, until
> golden brown. Move to wire racks to cool.

nogoer wrote:
> Im using this recipe trying to make rolls. Twice ive tried the recipe
> and both times im extremely frustrated. The first time i thought i
> overworked the dough. The second time i made sure i didnt over work the
> dough. Both times it was like a trampoline! I couldnt roll out the
> rolls either time without them pulling right back. The second time i
> left the dough a little wetter so the flaps joined better but the rolls
> just melded into one. Ive made bread before without issue, but getting
> the dough right has always been a challenge.
>
*RECIPE SNIPPED*

When dough starts acting like that the only thing you can do is walk
away from it for about 15 minutes and let the dough relax. The more
you try to stretch it the more it's going to spring back. After 15
minutes try stretching the dough again. If it starts to spring back
STOP and walk away for another 10 minutes.

Im not sure how the dough even got like that. I was very careful to
make sure i didnt overknead it. Even my worst attempt at pizza dough
when i first started baking never pulled like that. Is this typical of
this type of dough or are there ingredients in the recipe that should
be measured with utmost care to help avoid this situation?

Not that im really that experienced with baking, but i have had a bunch
of successful attempts with other recipes. At this point i would say my
biggest issue is getting the dough just right. I have yet to have that
eureka moment with knowing when i have the correct flour/liquid ratio.
I usually end up to dry or too wet.

Thanks djs0302

wrote:
> nogoer wrote:
> > Im using this recipe trying to make rolls. Twice ive tried the recipe
> > and both times im extremely frustrated. The first time i thought i
> > overworked the dough. The second time i made sure i didnt over work the
> > dough. Both times it was like a trampoline! I couldnt roll out the
> > rolls either time without them pulling right back. The second time i
> > left the dough a little wetter so the flaps joined better but the rolls
> > just melded into one. Ive made bread before without issue, but getting
> > the dough right has always been a challenge.
> >
> *RECIPE SNIPPED*
>
> When dough starts acting like that the only thing you can do is walk
> away from it for about 15 minutes and let the dough relax. The more
> you try to stretch it the more it's going to spring back. After 15
> minutes try stretching the dough again. If it starts to spring back
> STOP and walk away for another 10 minutes.

On 5 Nov 2006 05:23:01 -0800, "nogoer" > wrote:

>Im not sure how the dough even got like that. I was very careful to
>make sure i didnt overknead it. Even my worst attempt at pizza dough
>when i first started baking never pulled like that. Is this typical of
>this type of dough or are there ingredients in the recipe that should
>be measured with utmost care to help avoid this situation?
>
>Not that im really that experienced with baking, but i have had a bunch
>of successful attempts with other recipes. At this point i would say my
>biggest issue is getting the dough just right. I have yet to have that
>eureka moment with knowing when i have the correct flour/liquid ratio.
>I usually end up to dry or too wet.

A lot of this depends on what kind of bread you are seeking to
make...if it is a lean, artisan type bread, with a wide open, holey
and glossy interior, they you want *very* slack dough. If you want
close texture and crumb for something like a sandwich bread, you'll
have a more firm dough than for lean breads and perhaps fats, milk or
eggs for richer doughs.

I do a lot of bread baking without recipes and much of what I mix up
is by feel. There are a lot of home bakers who are not comfortable
with that and surely for some specific recipe, if the recipe provider
does not give you a clue as to how the dough should feel as you go
along, it can be tricky if you don't have a lot of experience under
your belt.

Google yourself some past posts from alt.bread.recipes, hang around
there reading things and also check out their FAQ, which is still a
work in progress - a good one always is - and see if you can find
yourself some answers to your questions overall. They are a good and
helpful group over there, but do some reading before you chime in and
I bet you'll find many of your questions already answered.

http://planeguy.mine.nu/bread/index....on=faq&page=88

There is no question, though, if you are working with a bread dough in
shaping and it is springing back at you, the advice given to you by an
OP is correct. Just walk away and let the dough relax enough so that
it does not fight you. (cover the dough so it does not dry out)

There are some wonderful techniques to learn...how to avoid kneading
and rely instead on a simple technique called "stretch and fold,"
finding out how you can deepen the flavor of your breads with a
pre-ferment, how to handle sloppy, high hydration doughs, baking at
high temps, etc.

There are a gazillion web pages on the net that will help you with
baking. One that I like because it is so very welcoming to newbies, is
this:
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/

The most important advice I can give you is to learn the basics, then
trust your heart, your hands and you eyes when you work with dough.

Last night I took about a cup of active sourdough starter, mixed it
with a cup of flour & enough water so that it resembled very thick
batter, and let that ferment overnight. This morning, I put it into
the mixer, added white flour, whole wheat, dark rye, spelt, flax seeds
and steel cut oats, enough water to make a soft and sticky dough, (you
touch it and it sticks to your finger), and left it to sit for 20
minutes (look up "autolyse," where you give the flour and water mix a
chance to rest, allow the flour to absorb the water and the gluten to
begin forming), then went back and added my salt, let the mixer run
just a bit to incorporate, and then put the gooey dough into an oiled
bowl. I will let it sit a bit, then stretch and fold the dough a few
times (http://planeguy.mine.nu/bread/index....n=faq&page=129)
and then let it rise, take it out and form it into loaves for another
rise, then bake.

You needn't have the dough in a bowl for stretch and fold, many/most
do it on a board or cloth. I have played with doughs enough to keep it
in the bowl and do this.

Best advice? Have fun and experiment. Flour and water are cheap, and
so is yeast if you buy it in bulk and keep it in the freezer (it keeps
for ages!) Read a few books, such as Peter Reinhart's "The Bread
Baker's Apprentice" and Jeffrey Hamelman's "Bread: A Baker's Book of
Techniques and Recipes" and you will lean a lot and have some fun
while you're learning, too. Check your library or used books sites
online for help.

There is no "one true path" to making bread. Read up, study, practice
and find what works best for you, your kitchen, the flours/grains you
prefer, your climate, etc...you will never find a cheaper hobby, and
one that can be nourishing and fun, too.

Boron

>Thanks djs0302
>
wrote:
>> nogoer wrote:
>> > Im using this recipe trying to make rolls. Twice ive tried the recipe
>> > and both times im extremely frustrated. The first time i thought i
>> > overworked the dough. The second time i made sure i didnt over work the
>> > dough. Both times it was like a trampoline! I couldnt roll out the
>> > rolls either time without them pulling right back. The second time i
>> > left the dough a little wetter so the flaps joined better but the rolls
>> > just melded into one. Ive made bread before without issue, but getting
>> > the dough right has always been a challenge.
>> >
>> *RECIPE SNIPPED*
>>
>> When dough starts acting like that the only thing you can do is walk
>> away from it for about 15 minutes and let the dough relax. The more
>> you try to stretch it the more it's going to spring back. After 15
>> minutes try stretching the dough again. If it starts to spring back
>> STOP and walk away for another 10 minutes.

Boron thanks for the very helpful post....maybe i shouldnt have tossed
the dough....dam. I felt very confident about this past time because
the dough had just enough spring for me doing a knuckle test prior to
the first rise. After second rise is when i had the problem, i couldnt
get the dough to roll out for roll shaping and it stuck pretty good to
everything it came in contact with.

I think im going to start my next try just making a basic french bread.
Just plain old yeast, salt, and water nothing like fats to change the
texture and make me second guess my heart.

Thanks!

Boron Elgar wrote:
> On 5 Nov 2006 05:23:01 -0800, "nogoer" > wrote:
>
> >Im not sure how the dough even got like that. I was very careful to
> >make sure i didnt overknead it. Even my worst attempt at pizza dough
> >when i first started baking never pulled like that. Is this typical of
> >this type of dough or are there ingredients in the recipe that should
> >be measured with utmost care to help avoid this situation?
> >
> >Not that im really that experienced with baking, but i have had a bunch
> >of successful attempts with other recipes. At this point i would say my
> >biggest issue is getting the dough just right. I have yet to have that
> >eureka moment with knowing when i have the correct flour/liquid ratio.
> >I usually end up to dry or too wet.
>
> A lot of this depends on what kind of bread you are seeking to
> make...if it is a lean, artisan type bread, with a wide open, holey
> and glossy interior, they you want *very* slack dough. If you want
> close texture and crumb for something like a sandwich bread, you'll
> have a more firm dough than for lean breads and perhaps fats, milk or
> eggs for richer doughs.
>
> I do a lot of bread baking without recipes and much of what I mix up
> is by feel. There are a lot of home bakers who are not comfortable
> with that and surely for some specific recipe, if the recipe provider
> does not give you a clue as to how the dough should feel as you go
> along, it can be tricky if you don't have a lot of experience under
> your belt.
>
> Google yourself some past posts from alt.bread.recipes, hang around
> there reading things and also check out their FAQ, which is still a
> work in progress - a good one always is - and see if you can find
> yourself some answers to your questions overall. They are a good and
> helpful group over there, but do some reading before you chime in and
> I bet you'll find many of your questions already answered.
>
> http://planeguy.mine.nu/bread/index....on=faq&page=88
>
> There is no question, though, if you are working with a bread dough in
> shaping and it is springing back at you, the advice given to you by an
> OP is correct. Just walk away and let the dough relax enough so that
> it does not fight you. (cover the dough so it does not dry out)
>
> There are some wonderful techniques to learn...how to avoid kneading
> and rely instead on a simple technique called "stretch and fold,"
> finding out how you can deepen the flavor of your breads with a
> pre-ferment, how to handle sloppy, high hydration doughs, baking at
> high temps, etc.
>
> There are a gazillion web pages on the net that will help you with
> baking. One that I like because it is so very welcoming to newbies, is
> this:
> http://www.thefreshloaf.com/
>
> The most important advice I can give you is to learn the basics, then
> trust your heart, your hands and you eyes when you work with dough.
>
> Last night I took about a cup of active sourdough starter, mixed it
> with a cup of flour & enough water so that it resembled very thick
> batter, and let that ferment overnight. This morning, I put it into
> the mixer, added white flour, whole wheat, dark rye, spelt, flax seeds
> and steel cut oats, enough water to make a soft and sticky dough, (you
> touch it and it sticks to your finger), and left it to sit for 20
> minutes (look up "autolyse," where you give the flour and water mix a
> chance to rest, allow the flour to absorb the water and the gluten to
> begin forming), then went back and added my salt, let the mixer run
> just a bit to incorporate, and then put the gooey dough into an oiled
> bowl. I will let it sit a bit, then stretch and fold the dough a few
> times (http://planeguy.mine.nu/bread/index....n=faq&page=129)
> and then let it rise, take it out and form it into loaves for another
> rise, then bake.
>
> You needn't have the dough in a bowl for stretch and fold, many/most
> do it on a board or cloth. I have played with doughs enough to keep it
> in the bowl and do this.
>
> Best advice? Have fun and experiment. Flour and water are cheap, and
> so is yeast if you buy it in bulk and keep it in the freezer (it keeps
> for ages!) Read a few books, such as Peter Reinhart's "The Bread
> Baker's Apprentice" and Jeffrey Hamelman's "Bread: A Baker's Book of
> Techniques and Recipes" and you will lean a lot and have some fun
> while you're learning, too. Check your library or used books sites
> online for help.
>
> There is no "one true path" to making bread. Read up, study, practice
> and find what works best for you, your kitchen, the flours/grains you
> prefer, your climate, etc...you will never find a cheaper hobby, and
> one that can be nourishing and fun, too.
>
> Boron
>
> >Thanks djs0302
> >
> wrote:
> >> nogoer wrote:
> >> > Im using this recipe trying to make rolls. Twice ive tried the recipe
> >> > and both times im extremely frustrated. The first time i thought i
> >> > overworked the dough. The second time i made sure i didnt over work the
> >> > dough. Both times it was like a trampoline! I couldnt roll out the
> >> > rolls either time without them pulling right back. The second time i
> >> > left the dough a little wetter so the flaps joined better but the rolls
> >> > just melded into one. Ive made bread before without issue, but getting
> >> > the dough right has always been a challenge.
> >> >
> >> *RECIPE SNIPPED*
> >>
> >> When dough starts acting like that the only thing you can do is walk
> >> away from it for about 15 minutes and let the dough relax. The more
> >> you try to stretch it the more it's going to spring back. After 15
> >> minutes try stretching the dough again. If it starts to spring back
> >> STOP and walk away for another 10 minutes.

nogoer wrote:
> Im not sure how the dough even got like that. I was very careful to
> make sure i didnt overknead it. Even my worst attempt at pizza dough
> when i first started baking never pulled like that. Is this typical of
> this type of dough or are there ingredients in the recipe that should
> be measured with utmost care to help avoid this situation?


With yeast doughs it's almost impossible to overknead them if you're
kneading them by hand. Pie crust dough and biscuit dough are
different. Those are the things you have to be careful not to
overknead. I'm guessing you didn't let the dough proof (rise) long
enough before trying to shape the rolls. Also, after you punch the
dough down the second time and divide the dough up into the 16 pieces,
let the pieces of dough rest a few minutes before trying to roll them
out into the circles.

wrote:
> nogoer wrote:
> > Im not sure how the dough even got like that. I was very careful to
> > make sure i didnt overknead it. Even my worst attempt at pizza dough
> > when i first started baking never pulled like that. Is this typical of
> > this type of dough or are there ingredients in the recipe that should
> > be measured with utmost care to help avoid this situation?
>
>
> With yeast doughs it's almost impossible to overknead them if you're
> kneading them by hand. Pie crust dough and biscuit dough are
> different. Those are the things you have to be careful not to
> overknead. I'm guessing you didn't let the dough proof (rise) long
> enough before trying to shape the rolls. Also, after you punch the
> dough down the second time and divide the dough up into the 16 pieces,
> let the pieces of dough rest a few minutes before trying to roll them
> out into the circles.

Thats very possible djs, i was more concerned about kneading as the
problem than proofing.

I followed boron elgars advice and went to freshloaf. I found useful
info there as well as the newcomer lessons. I decided to go back to
basics and try the first lesson. The dough this time showed the same
signs of pulling back even before i really got into the kneading. I
made two alterations though, first i used bread dough instead of AP and
second i let it rise a second time before the final shape and rise. The
dough was much more pliable at that point so i will start allowing
rests between major actions like kneading and shaping.

With that behind me i did have some issues with the dough being very
wet. I probably added almost another half cup over the recipe and the
dough was very sticky still. I was able to work with it though and
wound up with a good success. Rises werent the best but i had a very
nice oven spring and the ffinal bread had nice crumb and texture.
Undoubtedly my best success at artisan style bread so far.

Thanks for the help....i will keep practicing