"Frogleg" > wrote in message
...
> A question came up in rec.food.cooking with someone citing an 18,000
> BTU gas burner used for stir-fry. I've often heard "home stoves can't
> generate the heat necessary for 'proper' Chinese cooking." Yet, it
> seems to me that the origin of stir-fry *must* be to quick-cook with a
> minimal amount of fuel, and I'm picturing charcoal 'stoves' and very
> compact arrangements aboard boats as in some TV cooking shows and
> movies. Of course, one wants the pan quite hot, but not melted into
> slag.
>
> My query: Is some exraordinarily powerful heat source really a
> requirement of Chinese/stir-fry cooking?


No, definitely not. That's a strange, I dunno, myth or idée fixe out there,
that you need super high heat sources to get "restaurant quality" Chinese
food. Then why do all the Chinese restaurants in my town make totally
crappy fried rice, for instance? Because, just like for other cuisines, it
depends more on good recipes/good cooks and quality ingredients than on heat
and on that smokey taste. [OK, there is one place in Davis now that has
great fried rice, but it is new.]

And you're right: One of my most memorable meals in China was in a home that
had a little portable stove that sat on the counter. The difference was
that she was just a good cook.

One thing that bothers me about this belief is that it suggests that Chinese
cuisine is synonymous with stir-frying. Instead of worrying about their
stir-fries, I think people should expand their repertoire to braised,
steamed, and clay pot dishes. And lots of stir-fried dishes that use the
wok won't be helped much by high heat if a sauce is involved, like for
fish-flavored eggplants.

As kalanamak mentioned, I'd appreciate more heat for stir-fried fresh rice
noodles and for deep-frying whole poultry. Otherwise, a regular stove is
fine, IMO.

Peter

[...]

Peter Dy wrote:
>
> "Frogleg" > wrote in message
> ...
> > A question came up in rec.food.cooking with someone citing an 18,000
> > BTU gas burner used for stir-fry. I've often heard "home stoves can't
> > generate the heat necessary for 'proper' Chinese cooking." Yet, it
> > seems to me that the origin of stir-fry *must* be to quick-cook with a
> > minimal amount of fuel, and I'm picturing charcoal 'stoves' and very
> > compact arrangements aboard boats as in some TV cooking shows and
> > movies. Of course, one wants the pan quite hot, but not melted into
> > slag.

No such thing as charcoal stoves.

The dry grasses and other fuels the Chinese used produced a high heat
with a short burn time, hence "the need for speed" when cooking.

> > My query: Is some exraordinarily powerful heat source really a
> > requirement of Chinese/stir-fry cooking?
>
> No, definitely not. That's a strange, I dunno, myth or idée fixe out there,
> that you need super high heat sources to get "restaurant quality" Chinese
> food.

In Cantonese cooking, its a definite YES!

Its called "Wok Hey" in Cantonese.

> Then why do all the Chinese restaurants in my town make totally
> crappy fried rice, for instance? Because, just like for other cuisines, it
> depends more on good recipes/good cooks and quality ingredients than on heat
> and on that smokey taste. [OK, there is one place in Davis now that has
> great fried rice, but it is new.]

Beacuse in your part of town, its whats expected from the masses.

Even in NYC, if I go into a restaurant outside of the three Chinatowns,
and order in Cantonese, telling them what I want and how I want it
prepared,
the results are almost always dissapointing because they still see a Caucasian
face ordering.

A perfect example. Beef Chow Fun or in the Cantonese "Gon Chow Nau Haw".
Even in Chinatown this can be a disaster. The high heat is needed to slightly
char the noodles while barely cooking the scallion, with liitle or no grease
apparent and no gloppy-gooey sauce.

> And you're right: One of my most memorable meals in China was in a home that
> had a little portable stove that sat on the counter. The difference was
> that she was just a good cook.

What did she make? Not all Chinese food requires a burner with enough BTU's
to provide proper "Wok hey".

> One thing that bothers me about this belief is that it suggests that Chinese
> cuisine is synonymous with stir-frying. Instead of worrying about their
> stir-fries, I think people should expand their repertoire to braised,
> steamed, and clay pot dishes. And lots of stir-fried dishes that use the
> wok won't be helped much by high heat if a sauce is involved, like for
> fish-flavored eggplants.
>
> As kalanamak mentioned, I'd appreciate more heat for stir-fried fresh rice
> noodles and for deep-frying whole poultry. Otherwise, a regular stove is
> fine, IMO.

On a regular stove, I recommend the heaviest iron wok you can manage,
as the iron will hold heat better than the thin stainless ones, and keep
the portions small. Make two batches instead of one large one to keep
the initial temperature drop to a minimum.

"If Yan can, I can do better!" - Slim

"slim" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Peter Dy wrote:
[...]
> > > My query: Is some exraordinarily powerful heat source really a
> > > requirement of Chinese/stir-fry cooking?
> >
> > No, definitely not. That's a strange, I dunno, myth or idée fixe out
there,
> > that you need super high heat sources to get "restaurant quality"
Chinese
> > food.
>
> In Cantonese cooking, its a definite YES!
>
> Its called "Wok Hey" in Cantonese.


You don't say...


> Beacuse in your part of town, its whats expected from the masses.
>
> Even in NYC,


Uh, here you are agreeing with me.

Fancy and expensive pots and pans, expensive German knives, and expensive
high-powered stoves are not necessary for great cooking. Having such items
guarantees nothing. I'd rather eat fried rice at my Cantonese friends'
places with their crappy electric stoves than at restaurants that have
powerful stoves which lend "wok fragrance" to crap. One doesn't even need a
wok. I say: Go look for great recipes, learn good techniques, and use great
ingredients and you'll make better Chinese than most every restaurant in the
States. You say: Try Italian instead. I think that is a dogmatic position,
and certainly not fun!

[...]

> On a regular stove, I recommend the heaviest iron wok you can manage,
> as the iron will hold heat better than the thin stainless ones, and keep
> the portions small. Make two batches instead of one large one to keep
> the initial temperature drop to a minimum.


Huh? So, you just don't know what "requirement" means, is that it?

Peter

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 02:26:37 GMT, slim > wrote:
>A perfect example. Beef Chow Fun or in the Cantonese "Gon Chow Nau Haw".
>Even in Chinatown this can be a disaster. The high heat is needed to slightly
>char the noodles while barely cooking the scallion, with liitle or no grease
>apparent and no gloppy-gooey sauce.

Chow fun is indeed the perfect example of a dish that really needs the
BTUs of a professional wok burner. I produce an edible version and
cheat by adding a few drops of Gravy Mater or Kitchen Bouquet, which
puts a slight char flavor from the caramel. (I use it on beef, shrimp
or pork.) A drizzle of thick soy - less than 1/2 tsp - also helps
add a browned flavor to the noodles.

slim wrote:

> Peter Dy wrote:
> >
> > "Frogleg" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > A question came up in rec.food.cooking with someone citing an 18,000
> > > BTU gas burner used for stir-fry. I've often heard "home stoves can't
> > > generate the heat necessary for 'proper' Chinese cooking." Yet, it
> > > seems to me that the origin of stir-fry *must* be to quick-cook with a
> > > minimal amount of fuel, and I'm picturing charcoal 'stoves' and very
> > > compact arrangements aboard boats as in some TV cooking shows and
> > > movies. Of course, one wants the pan quite hot, but not melted into
> > > slag.
>
> No such thing as charcoal stoves.

Sure there are...Or are you somehow tripping on the word 'stove'...?

Charcoal is the cheapest and most used fuel in my neck-of-the-woods.
They are used for cooking most grilled meats, bananas, vegetables, etc., but not
for stir-frying
My charcoal stove gets used almost every day. I love the taste of meat cooked this
way.

BubbaBob wrote:

> slim > wrote:
>
>
>
>>No such thing as charcoal stoves.
>>
>>
> Really? I'm guessing that you've never been to Viet Nam.

I haven't. Is it cool? How is the food compared to
what you find in Vietnamese restaurants in the US?

--
Dan

BubbaBob > wrote:

>Vietnamese food in the US is in dire danger of being watered down and
>Americanized, in the same way that Cantonese cuisine was ruined in
>the '50's.

Huh? That's a leading comment if I've ever heard one.

Any qualifiers or is this a blanket statement?

LeeBat
curious yellow

On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 12:19:56 GMT, LeeBat > wrote:

>BubbaBob > wrote:
>
>>Vietnamese food in the US is in dire danger of being watered down and
>>Americanized, in the same way that Cantonese cuisine was ruined in
>>the '50's.
>
>Huh? That's a leading comment if I've ever heard one.
>
>Any qualifiers or is this a blanket statement?

How come "fusion" is brilliant, and "adapting" is godawful? I have
never visited an Asian country to taste "authentic" dishes, but my
pantry includes rice vinegar and soy and sambal ulek, and I'm fond of
veg-heavy, meat-light stir-fry dishes. My mother never used ginger
(except powdered in baking), and certainly not lemon grass or
five-spice or black mustard seed. Or *any* of the wide variety of
recipes, ingredients, herbs, and spices I have access to. I happen to
like sashimi and sushi, and don't much care to pay a large price for
California Roll, but don't believe it's criminal.

Much "authentic" cuisine is something I frankly have no desire to
sample. I can go to my grave quite satistifed without ever having
sampled chicken feet in any form. I am a product of my culture. I am
sure that French food in France is superior to that offered by La
Maison de la Casa House, and Vietnamese food in Vietnam more varied
and interesting than that of a single pho restaurant (even 'though
owned and staffed by Vietnamese immigrants) in my town.

But "watered down" isn't what I'd call my opportunities to taste pho
or sushi or green papaya salad or fettucini alfredo in the US. Wrold
cuisines adapt to the availability of ingredients and local tastes.

Salut/Hi Frogleg,

le/on Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:01:13 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 12:19:56 GMT, LeeBat > wrote:
>
>>BubbaBob > wrote:
>>
>>>Vietnamese food in the US is in dire danger of being watered down and
>>>Americanized, in the same way that Cantonese cuisine was ruined in
>>>the '50's.
>>
>>Huh? That's a leading comment if I've ever heard one.
>>
>>Any qualifiers or is this a blanket statement?
>
>How come "fusion" is brilliant, and "adapting" is godawful?

Because they're two things that are completely different.

I'm not going to argue with you, however, as there's no way I'll succceed in
persuading you to change your mind. However let me say that I am in complete
disagreement with you. You see, I HAVE been to Hong Kong and Singapore, and
I DID take the trouble to compare and contrast Chinese (from various
provinces) cooking in the USA, in the UK in Australia and in New Zealand
with those that I found in Asia.

This is a huge subject and nothing to do with the subject of the thread,
btw.

>Much "authentic" cuisine is something I frankly have no desire to
>sample. I can go to my grave quite satistifed without ever having
>sampled chicken feet in any form.

I can't disagree with that, though I'm glad to have had the chance to taste
some other products unavaulable in the USA.

> I am a product of my culture.
I'm amazed that should prevent you from wanting to discover the pleasure of
foerign food as authentically as possible.

> I am sure that French food in France is superior to that offered by La
>Maison de la Casa House,

Again, this is off topic, but I CAN confirm that many so called "french"
dishes that you eat in the States are a travesty of real French cooking. Not
all, but certainly cheeses (all the best French Cheeses are made with raw
milk, and as such are banned in the States). meat products and many
vegetables.
and Vietnamese food in Vietnam more varied

>But "watered down" isn't what I'd call my opportunities to taste pho
>or sushi or green papaya salad or fettucini alfredo in the US. Wrold
>cuisines adapt to the availability of ingredients and local tastes.

They do, but it would behove you to display a little more humility and
regret. If you've not eaten the real thing, that doesn't invalidate the
difference. If it's true that some adaptations are made to suit local
prejudices (balut would be hard for you to swallow), many others are made
because access to the real thing is either expensive (importing vietnamese
mint would be costly) or illegal (some methods of preserving) or difficult.
But that doesn't stop the result being pale imitations. Try - just once -
making a proper tagliatelli alla carbonara with real home made pasta, real
free range eggs, real italian pancetta and real stravecchio parmigiano
reggiano. I did, and was converted from disliking pasta to adoring it.

Fusion cooking is a created cuisine, made by talented cooks to combine the
best of two completely different strands of culinary philosophy. Usually
Eastern and Western, it could also be a combination of Japanese and Peruvian
(as at Nobu) or any two or more entirely disparate cuisines. Actually I'd
argue that Balti cooking is a fair example of Fusion cooking. It cannot be
judged except upon its own criteria, I feel.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare

Sometimes oi just sits and thinks
Sometimes oi just sits.

On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 13:37:45 +0100, Ian Hoare
> wrote:

>Salut/Hi Frogleg,
>
> le/on Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:01:13 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>>How come "fusion" is brilliant, and "adapting" is godawful?
>
>Because they're two things that are completely different.
>
>I'm not going to argue with you, however, as there's no way I'll succceed in
>persuading you to change your mind. However let me say that I am in complete
>disagreement with you. You see, I HAVE been to Hong Kong and Singapore, and
>I DID take the trouble to compare and contrast Chinese (from various
>provinces) cooking in the USA, in the UK in Australia and in New Zealand
>with those that I found in Asia.
>
>This is a huge subject and nothing to do with the subject of the thread,
>btw.

[Actually, the thread evolved, as so many do. I have changed the
subject here.]

It *is* a large topic for discussion. However,... should I be denied
cooking or tasting Vietnamese or Chinese or Italian or Mexican food in
the US simply because I don't travel to Vietnam or China or Italy or
Mexico? I *know* it's going to be different. Perhaps it's all
Vietnamese-American (even when the staff doesn't speak English), or
Chinese-American (even when the cook is in flight from the INS).

Given the interest in "ethnic" foods and cooking, and the
ever-increasing availability of ingredients, I feel there's nothing
despicable about saying one "likes Thai food" when one's experience
has taken place in US restaurants (or kitchens) where some exotic
variety of toad-sweat is unavailable to make a dish entirely
authentic. Chop Suey is "authentic." It's Chinese immigrant
accomodation to locally available ingredients cooked in a Chinese
manner. It wasn't, at first, a "watering down" of fine Chinese cuisne
for Caucasian taste. It was home cooking.
>
>>Much "authentic" cuisine is something I frankly have no desire to
>>sample. I can go to my grave quite satistifed without ever having
>>sampled chicken feet in any form.
>
>I can't disagree with that, though I'm glad to have had the chance to taste
>some other products unavaulable in the USA.

Thanks for the chicken feet exception. :-) I'll exchange an
appreciation of being able to have something we can't get here. Calvin
Trillin maintained that no Chinese restaurant in NYC could equal, I
think it was "Crab in Milk" as prepared in a Chinese restaurant close
to the Golders Green tube stop in London. Then he visited Hong Kong
and found Crab in Milk that was completely off the scale.
Nevertheless, he had a rich, full life with the lesser recipes, and I
presume isn't eschewing NYC Chinese restaurants because they don't
have *perfect* Crab in Milk.
>
>> I am a product of my culture.

>I'm amazed that should prevent you from wanting to discover the pleasure of
>foerign food as authentically as possible.

Well, I'm *not* someone paid to travel for food or any other purpose.
If I can only have *real* Chinese in China or Mexican in Mexico City,
I guess I'll have to live without. I *am* delighted that I can either
go to restaurants or cook at home and have such a great variety. I
figure the Pho shop will give me a taste. The taco outlet run by an
Indian family was not so hot(!) with tacos, but sweetly gave me a
recipe/method and some spices for cooking an Indian veg I grew from
seeds passed along from fellow gardeners.
>
>> I am sure that French food in France is superior to that offered by La
>>Maison de la Casa House,
>
>Again, this is off topic, but I CAN confirm that many so called "french"
>dishes that you eat in the States are a travesty of real French cooking. Not
>all, but certainly cheeses (all the best French Cheeses are made with raw
>milk, and as such are banned in the States). meat products and many
>vegetables.

We are certainly deficient in cheese. The EU also bans unpasturized
cheese, more's the pity. But many French dishes were devised to make
fairly marginal meat cuts into something edible.

> and Vietnamese food in Vietnam more varied
>
>>But "watered down" isn't what I'd call my opportunities to taste pho
>>or sushi or green papaya salad or fettucini alfredo in the US. Wrold
>>cuisines adapt to the availability of ingredients and local tastes.
>
>They do, but it would behove you to display a little more humility and
>regret. If you've not eaten the real thing,

Not a chance, bucko. When my Chinese SIL prepares a meal from
California ingredients, I don't sigh, "oh, I wonder what the Real
Thing tastes like."

> that doesn't invalidate the
>difference. If it's true that some adaptations are made to suit local
>prejudices (balut would be hard for you to swallow),

" balut - a fertilised egg with a partially developed duckling, which
is eaten boiled." You got *that* right. Why on *earth* would I travel
to the source for such an "authentic" snack? When I read descriptions
of whole fried fish with crispy skin, or savory cous-cous, or Indian
rice sweets, my mouth waters. I have no desire whatsoever to go on a
Cook's Tour of strange and unusual food. I don't want to be given a
sheep's eyeball as a treat.

> many others are made
>because access to the real thing is either expensive (importing vietnamese
>mint would be costly) or illegal (some methods of preserving) or difficult.
>But that doesn't stop the result being pale imitations. Try - just once -
>making a proper tagliatelli alla carbonara with real home made pasta, real
>free range eggs, real italian pancetta and real stravecchio parmigiano
>reggiano. I did, and was converted from disliking pasta to adoring it.

One recipe, among all the thousands of varieties of pasta dishes, is
acceptable to you? And *I'm* provincial?!

>Fusion cooking is a created cuisine, made by talented cooks to combine the
>best of two completely different strands of culinary philosophy. Usually
>Eastern and Western, it could also be a combination of Japanese and Peruvian
>(as at Nobu) or any two or more entirely disparate cuisines. Actually I'd
>argue that Balti cooking is a fair example of Fusion cooking. It cannot be
>judged except upon its own criteria, I feel.

So nothing is acceptable "adaptation" unless created by talented
(professional) chefs? Adding a little soy, ginger, and almonds to
green beans is phony. Lemon grass and chiles in chicken stock is
bogus. But asparagus with egg sauce ($18) and "mingling with the sexy,
hip crowd"
(http://www.myriadrestaurantgroup.com...obu%20Main.htm)
is authentic?

Salut/Hi Frogleg,

As I said, I'm not going to argue with you. You won't be persuaded.

However there's an error of fact that I will correct.

le/on Thu, 27 Nov 2003 15:08:56 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>*is* a large topic for discussion. However,... should I be denied
>cooking or tasting Vietnamese or Chinese or Italian or Mexican food in
>the US simply because I don't travel to Vietnam or China or Italy or
>Mexico? I *know* it's going to be different

No, but you should be aware that what you're eating is vastly different.
Better perhaps in some respects, less good in others.


>>> I am a product of my culture.
>
>>I'm amazed that should prevent you from wanting to discover the pleasure of
>>foerign food as authentically as possible.
>
>Well, I'm *not* someone paid to travel for food or any other purpose.

Neither am I, but I'm sufficiently interested in it to have been prepared to
put aside all the money from ou B&B for two years, so that I _could_ find
out for myself.

>>all, but certainly cheeses (all the best French Cheeses are made with raw
>>milk, and as such are banned in the States). meat products and many
>>vegetables.
>
>We are certainly deficient in cheese. The EU also bans unpasturized
>cheese, more's the pity.

This is the error of fact that I want to correct. I don't know WHERE you got
that idea, but it's entirely incorrect. All the cheeses I serve at my table
are made from raw milk, and none are produced or bought illegally or via the
back door.

> But many French dishes were devised to make fairly marginal meat cuts into something edible.

It'sa certainly true that the genius of French cooking (which it shares with
Chinese, by the way) is that over the years it has evolved recipes which
convert relatively unpromising raw materials into soimething truly
delightful. Take Coq au vin. A 3-4 year old rooster that has strutted his
stuff in liberty is going to be a pretty tough bit of meat. Roasting ands
grilling - or stir frying - will not give palatable results. However,
marinade it in a somewhat acid wine (to break down the toughness in the
fibres) then sauté it briefly before flaming in brandy and then simmering it
(without boiling, which would toughen the fibres) in the marinade until the
meat is tender (I do it over 3 days, about 2 hours a day), produces one of
the greatest dishes of the world. Recipes in the States (or France or the
UK), using a battery chicken, which would fall to a rag after 1 hour's
simmering are a travesty. Chinese and many other great cuisines have evolved
in the same way. But to go from there to dismiss dfoing all you can to
discover the best cuisines in the world because they are capable of using
such cuts is a kind of culinary iconoclasm that is breathtaking.


>>But that doesn't stop the result being pale imitations. Try - just once -
>>making a proper tagliatelli alla carbonara with real home made pasta, real
>>free range eggs, real italian pancetta and real stravecchio parmigiano
>>reggiano. I did, and was converted from disliking pasta to adoring it.
>
>One recipe, among all the thousands of varieties of pasta dishes, is
>acceptable to you? And *I'm* provincial?!

I didn't say that. But when you try the real thing, you realise just how
pallid the substitutions have made it.

>>Fusion cooking is a created cuisine,

>So nothing is acceptable "adaptation" unless created by talented
>(professional) chefs?

I didn't say that either. I was arguing that the thought processes and
creativivity are entirely different.


>bogus. But asparagus with egg sauce ($18) and "mingling with the sexy,
>hip crowd"
>(http://www.myriadrestaurantgroup.com...obu%20Main.htm)
>is authentic?

I've not followed the link, but all cuisines are capable of excess and not
all cuisines are uniformly successful. In fact all creative invention (art,
literature, music, cooking) is likely to produce somewhere between 80% and
95% dross. Time alone will tell whether any particular invention is genius
or dross. I don't, not by any manner of means, allow myself to be hypnotised
the the glamour element in any cooking style, no matter how popular or how
well written up. All I said, and stand by, is that the compromise that
substitutes a battery broiler for a rooster bears no relationship in
creativity, to the creation of a dish using eastern ingredients and western
cooking techniques (or the other way round) by someone who has spent his
whole life tasting and judging severely her culinary creations.
--
All the Best
Ian Hoare

Sometimes oi just sits and thinks
Sometimes oi just sits.

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 10:40:01 +0100, Ian Hoare
> wrote:

>Salut/Hi Frogleg,
> le/on Thu, 27 Nov 2003 15:08:56 GMT, tu disais/you said:-
>
>>*is* a large topic for discussion. However,... should I be denied
>>cooking or tasting Vietnamese or Chinese or Italian or Mexican food in
>>the US simply because I don't travel to Vietnam or China or Italy or
>>Mexico? I *know* it's going to be different
>
>No, but you should be aware that what you're eating is vastly different.
>Better perhaps in some respects, less good in others.

OK. I know it. It still doesn't mean that 'ethnic' food (home cooking
or restaurant) should be distained as "watered-down" (not your words,
but another poster's). I expect by now that *all* of world cuisine is
far different than it was 20, 50, 100, 1000 years ago. Does it include
chiles, potatoes, tomatoes, squash, or corn? Clearly either fusion
(OK) or adaptation/adoption (non-authentic). That is, away from the
Americas. I'm perfectly willing to believe there are in-situ dishes I
might enjoy more than what Thai Garden or Mama's Cocina has on the
menu. OTOH, when Thai Garden's owner/cook is delighted to "adapt" to
plentiful supplies of tender beef, local fish, and veg/fruit, I don't
think it's outrageous to say "ummm. Good! I *like* Thai food."
>
>>Well, I'm *not* someone paid to travel for food or any other purpose.
>
>Neither am I, but I'm sufficiently interested in it to have been prepared to
>put aside all the money from ou B&B for two years, so that I _could_ find
>out for myself.

This is a pretty exclusionary view. Good for you, if you enjoy and can
afford travel and pursuing your culinary interests. However, *don't*
feel free to rain on my parade when I 'discover' Ethiopian cuisine in
a DC restaurant or delight in my first green papaya salad. Don't tell
me what I eat and enjoy is crap, and I really *must* go to New Delhi
to taste *real* curried shrimp or Jakarta for rijstafel.

>>>all, but certainly cheeses (all the best French Cheeses are made with raw
>>>milk, and as such are banned in the States). meat products and many
>>>vegetables.
>>
>>We are certainly deficient in cheese. The EU also bans unpasturized
>>cheese, more's the pity.
>
>This is the error of fact that I want to correct. I don't know WHERE you got
>that idea, but it's entirely incorrect. All the cheeses I serve at my table
>are made from raw milk, and none are produced or bought illegally or via the
>back door.

Where I got the idea was the BBC sitcom 'Chef!' in which Lenny Henry
appears to have a great deal of trouble obtaining a genuine,
unpasteurized Stilton. It appears that while the US is waay too picky
about cheese, the EU may be following suit in some areas. Hold onto
that cheese, boyo. BTW, I made my own soft cheese (easy) from
unpasteurized goats' milk. Am I authentic?
>
>> But many French dishes were devised to make fairly marginal meat cuts into something edible.
>
>It'sa certainly true that the genius of French cooking (which it shares with
>Chinese, by the way) is that over the years it has evolved recipes which
>convert relatively unpromising raw materials into soimething truly
>delightful. Take Coq au vin. A 3-4 year old rooster that has strutted his
>stuff in liberty is going to be a pretty tough bit of meat.

Congrats to the French. There are pigs' feet and ears in my local
grocery stores which have, presumably, been made palatable to many
with traditional recipes. And I betcha 98 out of 100 ear purchasers
would be delighted to see a nice ham plopped down on their doorstep
instead. If you won't try and tempt me with aged fowl, I won't invite
you to try pigs' feet. (Which I never have.)

<snip labor/time intensive recipe to make an old rooster into a meal>

>>But that doesn't stop the result being pale imitations. Try - just once -
>>making a proper tagliatelli alla carbonara with real home made pasta, real
>>free range eggs, real italian pancetta and real stravecchio parmigiano
>>reggiano. I did, and was converted from disliking pasta to adoring it.

>>One recipe, among all the thousands of varieties of pasta dishes, is
>>acceptable to you? And *I'm* provincial?!

>I didn't say that. But when you try the real thing, you realise just how
>pallid the substitutions have made it.

I'm not much of an egg eater, and 'free range' eggs aren't available
within 15 miles or so. I *do* occasionally make my own pasta. Can and
have bought some pretty classy parmigiano reggiano. Virginia 'country'
ham is considered quite the equal of prosciutto (which I realize is
different from pancetta. There's plenty of bacon around here, too.) I
just don't see how Parma has the patent on the *only* way to make
pasta with bacon and eggs. And that every similar recipe is inferior.

>>asparagus with egg sauce ($18) and "mingling with the sexy,
>>hip crowd"
>>(http://www.myriadrestaurantgroup.com...obu%20Main.htm)
>>is authentic?
>
>I've not followed the link, but all cuisines are capable of excess and not
>all cuisines are uniformly successful.

You were the one who mentioned Nobu.

>In fact all creative invention (art,
>literature, music, cooking) is likely to produce somewhere between 80% and
>95% dross. Time alone will tell whether any particular invention is genius
>or dross. I don't, not by any manner of means, allow myself to be hypnotised
>the the glamour element in any cooking style, no matter how popular or how
>well written up. All I said, and stand by, is that the compromise that
>substitutes a battery broiler for a rooster bears no relationship in
>creativity, to the creation of a dish using eastern ingredients and western
>cooking techniques (or the other way round) by someone who has spent his
>whole life tasting and judging severely her culinary creations.

Nice for you. I don't doubt your experience and delight. Just don't
tell me my *own* delight is inferior. I *know* a supermarket pineapple
isn't the same as what's on the breakfast table in Hawaii (which I
*have* sampled). But it's pretty damn good. And I'm happy to be able
to buy one. If a Vietnamese restaurant opens in my town, I go. I don't
say, "oh, well. This isn't as good (or bad?) as food in Vietnam.
Sigh." I say, "wow! This tastes terrific." I don't feel punished by
not having aged roosters available. I'm not sophisticated enough to
appreciate many of the fine distinctions. Just let me enjoy spicing
with lemon grass and cilantro, making my own (adaptive, probably
inferior) red chile sauce, and chicken broth. And visits to
non-authentic restaurants.

"Frogleg" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 10:40:01 +0100, Ian Hoare
> > wrote:
>
> >Salut/Hi Frogleg,
> > le/on Thu, 27 Nov 2003 15:08:56 GMT, tu disais/you said:-
> >
> >>*is* a large topic for discussion. However,... should I be denied
> >>cooking or tasting Vietnamese or Chinese or Italian or Mexican food in
> >>the US simply because I don't travel to Vietnam or China or Italy or
> >>Mexico? I *know* it's going to be different
> >
> >No, but you should be aware that what you're eating is vastly different.
> >Better perhaps in some respects, less good in others.
>
> OK. I know it. It still doesn't mean that 'ethnic' food (home cooking
> or restaurant) should be distained as "watered-down" (not your words,
> but another poster's). I expect by now that *all* of world cuisine is
> far different than it was 20, 50, 100, 1000 years ago. Does it include
> chiles, potatoes, tomatoes, squash, or corn?


I just got back from a little trip to Germany. You can't get German bread
here in the States; it is as simple as that. That is what the original
poster and Ian, I'm sure, meant. They didn't say that there exists a
Platonic Form for German bread or Thai cuisine that remains the same for
eternity. I think you are the one insisting on some strict definition for
"authenticity," not us.


[...]
> >>Well, I'm *not* someone paid to travel for food or any other purpose.
> >
> >Neither am I, but I'm sufficiently interested in it to have been prepared
to
> >put aside all the money from ou B&B for two years, so that I _could_ find
> >out for myself.
>
> This is a pretty exclusionary view. Good for you, if you enjoy and can
> afford travel and pursuing your culinary interests. However, *don't*
> feel free to rain on my parade when I 'discover' Ethiopian cuisine in
> a DC restaurant or delight in my first green papaya salad. Don't tell
> me what I eat and enjoy is crap, and I really *must* go to New Delhi
> to taste *real* curried shrimp or Jakarta for rijstafel.


They have good rijsttafel in the Netherlands too! Just like there is
great Chinese, Thai, etc in the US. So, no, you certainly don't have to
travel to those countries. But if you are eating at some place that I know
serves crappy, Americanized fare, I will tell you it is crap. If I met you
on the street, I wouldn't, but this is a newsgroup inhabited by people with
a keen interest in Asian food; if you want to go to Olive Garden instead of
learning of a great authentic Italian place, you needn't read food
newsgroups with its food nerds to find out about the Olive Garden. I'm sure
Olive Garden might have some tasty dishes, but I'm not sure what your point
is in arguing on a food NG that we are elitist or something for prefering
other places.

If you don't like travelling, fine, but the reasons you have given for it
("I am a product of my culture"; "I'm not paid to travel") do not hold
water. The US is an dynamic, immigrant country and has had a long history
of travel (Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, Mark Twain, Hemingway). There
were Americans most everywhere I went to in Frankfurt and Maastricht. Like
Ian, I am not paid to travel either. It is not expensive, especially to
someplace like Mexico. Some people just prefer buying expensive SUVs and
the gas needed for it, than taking a trip abroad.


[...]
> Nice for you. I don't doubt your experience and delight. Just don't
> tell me my *own* delight is inferior. I *know* a supermarket pineapple
> isn't the same as what's on the breakfast table in Hawaii (which I
> *have* sampled). But it's pretty damn good. And I'm happy to be able
> to buy one. If a Vietnamese restaurant opens in my town, I go. I don't
> say, "oh, well. This isn't as good (or bad?) as food in Vietnam.
> Sigh." I say, "wow! This tastes terrific." I don't feel punished by
> not having aged roosters available. I'm not sophisticated enough to
> appreciate many of the fine distinctions. Just let me enjoy spicing
> with lemon grass and cilantro, making my own (adaptive, probably
> inferior) red chile sauce, and chicken broth. And visits to
> non-authentic restaurants.


Methinks you are fighting against a straw man of your own creation. I
recently wrote here that American chickens, especial breasts, taste like
cottony crap compared to Mexican chickens. I think we should feel punished
for what has happened to our chickens the last few decades. That doesn't
mean you shouldn't eat American chickens (except for maybe the breasts), but
I doubt anyone felt like I was making them feel inferior when I wrote that.

Peter

Salut/Hi Frogleg,

I said I'm not going to argue with you, and I'm not. If I thought that there
was any chance of persuading you to discard just a bit of your
americano-centric insularity I might.

le/on Sat, 29 Nov 2003 21:35:38 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 10:40:01 +0100, Ian Hoare
> wrote:


>plentiful supplies of tender beef, local fish, and veg/fruit, I don't
>think it's outrageous to say "ummm. Good! I *like* Thai food."

I'd feel happier if you understood that what you're really saying is "I
like what I get served as Thai food in the USA".

>This is a pretty exclusionary view.

Certainly not. You could do it too. Democracy is as much about the right to
use your money in any way you choose as anything else. All I'm saying and
will go on saying, is that "ethnic" food as served in many countries is all
too often a pallid watered down imitation, emasculated to please the pallid
watered down taste of the people living there.

>Where I got the idea was the BBC sitcom 'Chef!' in which Lenny Henry
>appears to have a great deal of trouble obtaining a genuine,
>unpasteurized Stilton.

There is no Stilton made from unpasteurised milk any more (more's the pity).
But that's as much to do with the US ban on importing unpasteurised cheeses
as anything else. Add that to the way in which the British food safety
authorities (mis)interpret European legislation, the difficulty of obtaining
raw milk in the UK, and the pallid watered down taste of many Brits,
deprived of tasty food for decades until the resurgence of asian food
(albeit pallid and watered down, often) and you can understand why many
british cheesemakers have simply given up making the effort. The REALLY sad
thing is that the industrial cheesemakers in Europe have succeeded in their
strategy of divide and conquer, so traditional cheesemakers throughout
Europe see themselves as isolated remnants of (french)(British)(Italian)
(Dutch)(Spanish)(etc) true culture surrounded by unthinking foreigners. In
truth, they are ALL fighting the same battle and would be vastly stronger
and more effective of they joined together and fought as one.


--
All the Best
Ian Hoare

Sometimes oi just sits and thinks
Sometimes oi just sits.

"Ian Hoare" > wrote in message
news
> Salut/Hi Frogleg,
>
> I said I'm not going to argue with you, and I'm not. If I thought that
there
> was any chance of persuading you to discard just a bit of your
> americano-centric insularity I might.


Hey Ian,

I'm sure you know that not all of us Americans are like that. I'm pretty
****ed, 'cause I met two really nice Russians in Germany who told me that
they hate America and found us horribly arrogant. I've lived 2 separate
years in Germany, have visited Europe numerous times, but I had never heard
anything like that. We were maybe naive, clumsy, uncultured, but never
arrogant. I think it all has to do with our Little Hilter, the
war-mongering George Bush. He and his little Arschlecker puppy dog, Tony
Blair. Oh, and those little Scheissstücke C. Rice, C. Powell, and those
Israeli Nazis, Feith, Wolfowitz, and Pearl.

Wish we could become good citizens of the world again, but with ****ed up
people in Virginia and the like, I don't have my hopes up for the next
election....

Peter

"Steve Wertz" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 00:55:39 GMT, "Peter Dy" >
> wrote:
>
> I'd love to hear about your trip, Pete, bot (that's a german typo)
> unfortuanatly it's been lost in a sea of something I must have
> unsubscribed.


Wait. So you are in Germany now?! I hadn't posted a trip report, but I
will, since you asked. Will cross-post it with rec.food.cooking, perhaps,
since only one aspect of it deals with Asia.

Peter

Salut/Hi Peter Dy,

le/on Sun, 30 Nov 2003 12:05:42 GMT, tu disais/you said:-


>> I said I'm not going to argue with you, and I'm not. If I thought that there
>> was any chance of persuading you to discard just a bit of your americano-centric insularity I might.


>I'm sure you know that not all of us Americans are like that.

Of course I do. I've been a subscriber to Fido's "Cooking" echo for years,
and to various Anglo/American language newsgroups too, and I've made many
good friends there. In fact I think frogleg's main problem is in the way he
expresses himself. But as a Brit (half hungarian) who lives in France. one
of the thngs that has struck me most forcibly is just how similar many
French and Americans in their approach are to foreign culture. By no means
all, of course, but many. And just as I find it utterly unacceptable to read
from the french that "american cuisine is non existent", so I find it
unacceptable to read from an American "I don't need to go abroad to discover
ethnic food". There's enough of a grain of truth in both statements for them
not to be subject to total public derision from their peers, but both
statements are such over simplistic generalisations that I won't let them go
unchallenged.

And at the heart of both attitudes lies a terror of the unknown and a fear
of being mocked for not being able to speak the language.

>Wish we could become good citizens of the world again, but with ****ed up
>people in Virginia and the like, I don't have my hopes up for the next
>election....

A very difficult subject and one which ought not really be discussed here.
(Off topic). I'd merely quote John Dunn "No man is an island entire unto
himself....Every man's death diminishes me .... Seek not to ask for whom the
bell tolls, it tolls for thee," So we should mourn the death of an American
soldier just as we should that of a suicide bomber or a civilian passing by.
--
All the Best
Ian Hoare

Sometimes oi just sits and thinks
Sometimes oi just sits.

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 00:55:39 GMT, "Peter Dy" >
wrote:

>
>"Frogleg" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 10:40:01 +0100, Ian Hoare
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >Salut/Hi Frogleg,
>> > le/on Thu, 27 Nov 2003 15:08:56 GMT, tu disais/you said:-
>> >
>> >>*is* a large topic for discussion. However,... should I be denied
>> >>cooking or tasting Vietnamese or Chinese or Italian or Mexican food in
>> >>the US simply because I don't travel to Vietnam or China or Italy or
>> >>Mexico? I *know* it's going to be different
>> >
> > >>Well, I'm *not* someone paid to travel for food or any other purpose.
>> >
>> >Neither am I, but I'm sufficiently interested in it to have been prepared
>to
>> >put aside all the money from ou B&B for two years, so that I _could_ find
>> >out for myself.
>>
>> This is a pretty exclusionary view. Good for you, if you enjoy and can
>> afford travel and pursuing your culinary interests. However, *don't*
>> feel free to rain on my parade when I 'discover' Ethiopian cuisine in
>> a DC restaurant or delight in my first green papaya salad. Don't tell
>> me what I eat and enjoy is crap, and I really *must* go to New Delhi
>> to taste *real* curried shrimp or Jakarta for rijstafel.
>
>They have good rijsttafel in the Netherlands too! Just like there is
>great Chinese, Thai, etc in the US. So, no, you certainly don't have to
>travel to those countries. But if you are eating at some place that I know
>serves crappy, Americanized fare, I will tell you it is crap.

So I am at fault both for enjoying the foods I cook/buy AND for having
no taste? Do you think I should be restricted to hot dogs and
Mac&Cheese because I clearly can't distinguish from a hamburger and
steak tartare? Have you *been* to my local pho shop or Thai
grocery/restaurant to be able to authoratatively pronunce them crap?
The Ethiopian place off DuPont Circle? I *know* that #1 Kitchen in the
shopping strip isn't a Hong Kong delight. I *know* that cutting things
into bits and stir-frying in my own wok with the spices I have
available isn't top-quality "Chinese" cooking. "Americanized" has
become as much as a buzzword as "liberal" I don't have a mango or
cashew tree in my back yard. I *do* have access to any number of
imports (tarmarind in pods, mango, daikon, papadums, every sort of
noodle, besan, vanilla, pepper, chiles, chocolate) from all over the
world.

This reminds me of happily announcing the acquisition of a computer or
a car or sweater and having people jump out of the woodwork saying,
"you could have gotten it cheaper at X. That brand/model/material is
garbage." The implication being "you are an idiot; I have very
superior tastes."


>If I met you
>on the street, I wouldn't, but this is a newsgroup inhabited by people with
>a keen interest in Asian food;

Ah, but this *isn't* a group inhabited exclusively by those who travel
the world and report back on the nifty meals they had and how superior
the experience to anything the rest of us can fathom. This is
alt.food.asian, not alt.trip.report.you.ignoramouses.

>if you want to go to Olive Garden instead of
>learning of a great authentic Italian place, you needn't read food
>newsgroups with its food nerds to find out about the Olive Garden.

Don't you love the ads, 'though? "At Olive Garden, you're family."
What I'd really like to do is take a baby in and hand it and a diaper
bag off to the server, and say "Cousin Mike, please take care of the
bambino for the next couple of hours while we're eating." :-)

>I'm sure
>Olive Garden might have some tasty dishes, but I'm not sure what your point
>is in arguing on a food NG that we are elitist or something for prefering
>other places.

Other places? You mean an interest in Asian food (which covers quite a
bit of territory) is outside the comprehension of a USAsian. And my
own enjoyment of local Asian restaurants and cooking isn't serious
enough for you? Hey -- if I'd said "why doesn't everyone just open a
can of Chung King something and pour it over fried noodles," I would
expect the distain. (And I would be 15 years old.)

I started the thread this evolved from by a serious question about why
so many say authentic/correct Chinese food can't be made at home
because only restaurant stoves are powerful enough for the purpose.
And I never did get a sensible answer. One poster claimed there was no
such thing as a charcoal stove, which is patently ridiculous.
>
>If you don't like travelling, fine, but the reasons you have given for it
>("I am a product of my culture"; "I'm not paid to travel") do not hold
>water. The US is an dynamic, immigrant country and has had a long history
>of travel (Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, Mark Twain, Hemingway). There
>were Americans most everywhere I went to in Frankfurt and Maastricht. Like
>Ian, I am not paid to travel either. It is not expensive, especially to
>someplace like Mexico. Some people just prefer buying expensive SUVs and
>the gas needed for it, than taking a trip abroad.

^_^ I love traveling. I am poor. *Really* poor. I do have a car -- a
1985 Nissan. My 'discretionary' funds are used for my ISP and
sell-by-right-this-minute discount meat. AFAIK, I haven't said thing
one about American/local experiences being *superior* to those in
foreign settings -- only that it was possible to enjoy them without
being despised.

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 12:04:52 +0100, Ian Hoare
> wrote:

>Salut/Hi Frogleg,
>
>I said I'm not going to argue with you, and I'm not. If I thought that there
>was any chance of persuading you to discard just a bit of your
>americano-centric insularity I might.

Yargh!!! I *didn't* say everything (or even anything) American was
superior. I said everything non-US *isn't* superior. I said if I enjoy
Thai food prepared by Thai immigrants or American afficiandos of Thai
cooking with ingredients available in the US, I'm not an idiot. I'm
*sure* if I traveled to Hong Kong, I'd come back with stories of some
fabulous food. I'm also reasonably sure I'd come back with stories of
perfectly ghastly food, too.

>>plentiful supplies of tender beef, local fish, and veg/fruit, I don't
>>think it's outrageous to say "ummm. Good! I *like* Thai food."
>
>I'd feel happier if you understood that what you're really saying is "I
>like what I get served as Thai food in the USA".

I would, except that I expect I'd get the same "you haven't really had
Thai food 'til you've been to Bangkok" rebuttal. Do people go around
telling the French, "you haven't really had fried chicken 'til you've
been to South Carolina"? Are the French restricted to enjoying only
French food? And Indians not allowed to try coq au vin?
>
>>This is a pretty exclusionary view.
>
>Certainly not. You could do it too. Democracy is as much about the right to
>use your money in any way you choose as anything else. All I'm saying and
>will go on saying, is that "ethnic" food as served in many countries is all
>too often a pallid watered down imitation, emasculated to please the pallid
>watered down taste of the people living there.

Send me the money, and I'll travel like a salmon. :-) I don't, never
did, never will, say that a cusine isn't *changed* by importation.
Curry is the most popular dish in the UK. Hurry Curry probably isn't
the same as a dinner in Bangalore. So millions of Brits are eating
crap. All over the world there are immigrant communities adapting
their recipes to available ingredients and, to some extent, local
tastes. So they, too, are serving and eating crap. Everyone who eats
sushi outside Japan is eating crap. Flan outside a Spanish speaking
country?

You *do* say "all too often," which may be at least partially true. I
like spicy food. But I know my limits. I ask for "American hot, not
Thai hot." I don't crave tripe or eel or shark's fin or chicken feet.

"Pallid, watered-down, emasculated imitation"? Please specify. What
*is* "watered-down"? Missing the essential toad-sweat? Using tender
young (nastily raised) chicken instead of old rooster? The French cook
exclusively with old roosters? Intolerant of spices? What do you think
the American diet is composed of? Bread pudding? Mac&Cheese?

"Frogleg" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 00:55:39 GMT, "Peter Dy" >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Frogleg" > wrote in message
> .. .
> >> On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 10:40:01 +0100, Ian Hoare
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> >Salut/Hi Frogleg,
> >> > le/on Thu, 27 Nov 2003 15:08:56 GMT, tu disais/you said:-
> >> >
> >> >>*is* a large topic for discussion. However,... should I be denied
> >> >>cooking or tasting Vietnamese or Chinese or Italian or Mexican food
in
> >> >>the US simply because I don't travel to Vietnam or China or Italy or
> >> >>Mexico? I *know* it's going to be different
> >> >
> > > >>Well, I'm *not* someone paid to travel for food or any other
purpose.
> >> >
> >> >Neither am I, but I'm sufficiently interested in it to have been
prepared
> >to
> >> >put aside all the money from ou B&B for two years, so that I _could_
find
> >> >out for myself.
> >>
> >> This is a pretty exclusionary view. Good for you, if you enjoy and can
> >> afford travel and pursuing your culinary interests. However, *don't*
> >> feel free to rain on my parade when I 'discover' Ethiopian cuisine in
> >> a DC restaurant or delight in my first green papaya salad. Don't tell
> >> me what I eat and enjoy is crap, and I really *must* go to New Delhi
> >> to taste *real* curried shrimp or Jakarta for rijstafel.
> >
> >They have good rijsttafel in the Netherlands too! Just like there is
> >great Chinese, Thai, etc in the US. So, no, you certainly don't have to
> >travel to those countries. But if you are eating at some place that I
know
> >serves crappy, Americanized fare, I will tell you it is crap.
>
> So I am at fault both for enjoying the foods I cook/buy AND for having
> no taste? Do you think I should be restricted to hot dogs and
> Mac&Cheese because I clearly can't distinguish from a hamburger and
> steak tartare? Have you *been* to my local pho shop or Thai
> grocery/restaurant to be able to authoratatively pronunce them crap?
> The Ethiopian place off DuPont Circle?


Like I said, if I knew that they were crappy, Americanized places, I'd say
so; but I'm not familiar with the places you go to. Actually, such
discussions never really come up on this newsgroup, since we are all from
different parts of the world. We never talk about specific restaurants,
except for maybe recommendations. Again, I think your complaints are
misplaced--we don't do what you accuse us of doing.

BTW, I thought the Chinese restaurants in Fairfax County, Virginia, were
excellent, especially the stuff on the separate Chinese menu (not sure if
they do it like that there anymore.). There was also a great Korean
shopping mall I went to there with great food shops.

So, which post was it here that raised your ire? I'm confused. Bubbabob's
about Cantonese food having been "ruined in the 50's"? I think that was
perhaps clumsily worded, but it is a fact that Chinese restaurants had menus
back then geared towards "Western tastes", with things the Chinese running
the place never ate.

The Chinese restaurants in my town, and we have at least around 10, suck!
Yet, I do eat at them ocassionally. I'd never recommend them to anyone,
though. If I wanted to take someone out for a nice Chinese meal, I'd drive
to Sacramento or San Francisco. I'm not sure why that bothers you.


I *know* that cutting things
> into bits and stir-frying in my own wok with the spices I have
> available isn't top-quality "Chinese" cooking.


Again, no one on this newsgroup has ever said you can't do what the hell you
want in your kitchen. I've been here for over 3 years and I don't remember
such a thing. You are making stuff up.


> This reminds me of happily announcing the acquisition of a computer or
> a car or sweater and having people jump out of the woodwork saying,
> "you could have gotten it cheaper at X. That brand/model/material is
> garbage." The implication being "you are an idiot; I have very
> superior tastes."


To tell you the truth, I like topics like this, and would gladly discuss it
further. I don't like, however, how you seem to be accusing us of things we
don't do.


> >If I met you
> >on the street, I wouldn't, but this is a newsgroup inhabited by people
with
> >a keen interest in Asian food;
>
> Ah, but this *isn't* a group inhabited exclusively by those who travel
> the world and report back on the nifty meals they had and how superior
> the experience to anything the rest of us can fathom. This is
> alt.food.asian, not alt.trip.report.you.ignoramouses.


You're right. We don't just report back on trips. Have you really been
following this group long? I don't think Steve has ever been to Vietnam
like I have, but he seems to know the cuisine better than I do. I don't
recall a traveler vs. non-traveler division on this group.


> Other places? You mean an interest in Asian food (which covers quite a
> bit of territory) is outside the comprehension of a USAsian. And my
> own enjoyment of local Asian restaurants and cooking isn't serious
> enough for you?


You can enjoy whatever the hell you want; no one is stopping you.... If
someone says, "I love Expressionist art," and I go to their place and they
have Impressionist paintings hanging on the wall, I might not say anything.
Still, there is a difference; and if I'm considered elitist for knowing the
difference, I'm not sure if that is a bad thing.


> I started the thread this evolved from by a serious question about why
> so many say authentic/correct Chinese food can't be made at home
> because only restaurant stoves are powerful enough for the purpose.
> And I never did get a sensible answer.


Hey! You never replied to my post. How was my answer not sensible?


> >If you don't like travelling, fine, but the reasons you have given for it
> >("I am a product of my culture"; "I'm not paid to travel") do not hold
> >water. The US is an dynamic, immigrant country and has had a long
history
> >of travel (Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, Mark Twain, Hemingway). There
> >were Americans most everywhere I went to in Frankfurt and Maastricht.
Like
> >Ian, I am not paid to travel either. It is not expensive, especially to
> >someplace like Mexico. Some people just prefer buying expensive SUVs and
> >the gas needed for it, than taking a trip abroad.
>
> ^_^ I love traveling. I am poor. *Really* poor. I do have a car -- a
> 1985 Nissan.


I hope on going to Oaxaca again next summer. I met an American there once
who drove down--it can be done. See ya there!

Peter

"Peter Dy" > wrote in message
. com...
>
>
>
> I hope on going to Oaxaca again next summer. I met an American there once
> who drove down--it can be done. See ya there!
>
> Peter
>
>

Sure you can drive down, but the question is--will you take pictures of the
food :-)?

rona
--
***For e-mail, replace .com with .ca Sorry for the inconvenience!***

"Rona Yuthasastrakosol" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "Peter Dy" > wrote in message
> . com...
> >
> >
> >
> > I hope on going to Oaxaca again next summer. I met an American there
once
> > who drove down--it can be done. See ya there!
> >
> > Peter
> >
> >
>
> Sure you can drive down, but the question is--will you take pictures of
the
> food :-)?


Hey! But I do have a couple of nice food pics from my last trip to Oaxaca!
And a few pics of Dutch snacks from my most recent trip--forgot the camera
for my big goose meal in Frankfurt!!. Do you think I should I post them on
that pet newsgroup again?

Peter

On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 02:00:44 GMT, "Peter Dy" >
wrote:
>
>We never talk about specific restaurants,
>except for maybe recommendations. Again, I think your complaints are
>misplaced--we don't do what you accuse us of doing.

Maybe not you, although you *did* accuse me of being un-Jeffersonian
for not traveling, and also, indirectly, of spending my money on an
SUV. :-) I *haven't* traveled extensively outside the US, and
certainly not to any foodie paradises (how does 6 weeks at a Norwegian
AFB strike you?) I'm *tired* of being told my enjoyment of
other-than-burger cusine is bugus because I *haven't* tasted "real"
Vietnamese or French or Northern Italian food in situ, so my delight,
too, is bogus. I might just open up a can of Franco-American
spaghetti, and forget about trying another (so-called) Thai recipe
that will *obviously* fall far short of Bangkok street food.
>
>BTW, I thought the Chinese restaurants in Fairfax County, Virginia, were
>excellent, especially the stuff on the separate Chinese menu (not sure if
>they do it like that there anymore.).

[Calvin Trillin said he wanted to learn enough Chinese writing to be
able to order from that menu. He is confident the Chinese-readers are
getting better food. :-) ]

>So, which post was it here that raised your ire? I'm confused. Bubbabob's
>about Cantonese food having been "ruined in the 50's"? I think that was
>perhaps clumsily worded, but it is a fact that Chinese restaurants had menus
>back then geared towards "Western tastes", with things the Chinese running
>the place never ate.

So help me out, here. Waitstaff in Chinese restaurants are all slim as
minnows, and the food served is *way* over the top with battered (?)
deep-fry and glutinous sauce. Do they eat *anything* on the menu, or
have some secret kitchen in the back, a la Trillin?
>
>The Chinese restaurants in my town, and we have at least around 10, suck!
>Yet, I do eat at them ocassionally. I'd never recommend them to anyone,
>though. If I wanted to take someone out for a nice Chinese meal, I'd drive
>to Sacramento or San Francisco. I'm not sure why that bothers you.

That *doesn't* bother me. What bothers me is being told (I guess Ian
has been pushing this view) that it is not possible to have a "nice
Chinese meal" in the US.

> I *know* that cutting things
>> into bits and stir-frying in my own wok with the spices I have
>> available isn't top-quality "Chinese" cooking.
>
>Again, no one on this newsgroup has ever said you can't do what the hell you
>want in your kitchen. I've been here for over 3 years and I don't remember
>such a thing. You are making stuff up.

I have repeatedly typed "eat/buy" and "restaurant/home cooking" with
the same pooh-pooh response. Mostly from Ian, I guess. I can't enjoy
Thai food; I can only say I enjoy Thai food as prepared in the US.
Pardon me. OK. I don't like Mexican food. I like US Southwest
Mexican-ancestry food as prepared in certain New Mexico restaurants,
and some I make at home after 20 years in New Mexico. I don't like
Indian food, but food prepared from recipes in books and on web sites
(in English) with what I naively imagine to be Indian flavors.
>

>To tell you the truth, I like topics like this, and would gladly discuss it
>further. I don't like, however, how you seem to be accusing us of things we
>don't do.

I do to. It's certainly provided a little activity here. :-) The
problem is, as in "a vast topic", it's a highly nuanced discussion. My
beef (!) is that I get the impression, rightly or wrongly, that I
*can't* enjoy/like/appreciate what I experience because it's not the
Real Thing. You said, for example, that "you can't get German bread in
the US." Well, yes you can. You can mail-order or have a friend send
some, for one thing. I'm not a German ('scuse me -- German-inspired,
pale imitation) food fan, but I'm willing to bet there are, somewhere
in the 50 states, a few communities of heavily German
ancestry/immigration where bread is made that is virtually
indistinguishable from that in the original country (or 2 or 6). You
can't *easily* get German bread in the US. Unless it's a function of
ambient yeast populations, as in SF sourdough, you can probably make
and eat German bread.


>You're right. We don't just report back on trips. Have you really been
>following this group long? I don't think Steve has ever been to Vietnam
>like I have, but he seems to know the cuisine better than I do. I don't
>recall a traveler vs. non-traveler division on this group.

See Ian's postings.

>
>> I started the thread this evolved from by a serious question about why
>> so many say authentic/correct Chinese food can't be made at home
>> because only restaurant stoves are powerful enough for the purpose.
>> And I never did get a sensible answer.
>
>
>Hey! You never replied to my post. How was my answer not sensible?

You agreed with me. No need to follow up. Thank you?
>
>I hope on going to Oaxaca again next summer. I met an American there once
>who drove down--it can be done. See ya there!

Enjoy.

"Frogleg" > wrote in message
news
> On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 02:00:44 GMT, "Peter Dy" >
> wrote:
> >>
> So help me out, here. Waitstaff in Chinese restaurants are all slim as
> minnows, and the food served is *way* over the top with battered (?)
> deep-fry and glutinous sauce. Do they eat *anything* on the menu, or
> have some secret kitchen in the back, a la Trillin?

It depends on where you are. I live in Manhattan. We have Chinese
restaurants whhere almost all the patrons are Chinese or Chinese-American,
and places where the only Chinese face might belong to the owner. On
average, the places patronized by Chinese have better food, and more
authentic too, if my cookbooks are right.
Also, much of what is served in any restaurant is 'banquet' food. The
French don't really eat heavy cream sauces all the time, and the Chinese
don't batter everything they see, or eat large quantities of meat all the
time. I go to certain restaurants because I want the fancy version of their
cuisine; I do know that in some Chinese restaurants, if you get to know the
owner (or eat in the right place) you get get foods like congee and chicken
feet, which are more every day things. It's rather like you would probably
not take a visitor to the US to a restaurant that served peanut butter or
bologna sandwiches, Hawaiian Punch, and Little Debbie cakes, even though
there are many Americans who eat such foods for lunch. It would be
considered too boring to serve in a restaurant, and homely to boot (anthough
there are restaurants that trade in nostalgia and sell peanut butter
sandwiches).

My neighborhood is not far from a developing Little Tokyo. Because we have
a growing number of homesick ex-pats, I see foods that are almost never
found in the average American Japanese restaurant in the US. My local
bakery maks pastries filled with corn, pickled ginger, and hot dogs, and I
can buy a hot Calpico to wash it down. The other day I went to the local
okonomiyaki place and some German tourists who had made many visits to Japan
were amazed to discover a food they had never seen there- okonomiyaki, it
turns out, is usually prepared at home as an after school snack or served
from small stands at some festivals. I'm beginning to realize tha by living
where I do, I'm getting a much different look at what the average Japanese
really eats, and most of it looks like nothing served in any restaurant most
people in the West have seen unless they live near a neighborhood like mine.
Personally, I'm waiting for some local to open a Japanese-style Pizza Hut,
so I can find out if some of the combos I see on their Japanese website
actually taste good.
> >
> >The Chinese restaurants in my town, and we have at least around 10, suck!
> >Yet, I do eat at them ocassionally. I'd never recommend them to anyone,
> >though. If I wanted to take someone out for a nice Chinese meal, I'd
drive
> >to Sacramento or San Francisco. I'm not sure why that bothers you.
>
> That *doesn't* bother me. What bothers me is being told (I guess Ian
> has been pushing this view) that it is not possible to have a "nice
> Chinese meal" in the US.

Again- it depends on what you mean by 'nice'. I hear that overall, the
Chinese restaurants in London are better than in New York. However, that
does not mean that you cannot and will not find gifted Chinese cooks working
in the US. New York now has kick-ass Fujianese cuisine- if you're willing
to go to Flushing, Queens. We actually do have a few HK-style places, and we
even have a couple of authentic Schezuan (sp?) places. But I would suspect
that most Chinese food in the US is horrid- just as most food in the US is
horrid. In many parts of the US, you'll be hard-pressed to get decent local
bread without going to a high-priced gourmet food shop. Many people think
McDonalds is a real restaurant; ditto places like The Olive Garden, where
the food is literally poured out of containers, out of the sight of
customers.
>
> > I *know* that cutting things
> >> into bits and stir-frying in my own wok with the spices I have
> >> available isn't top-quality "Chinese" cooking.
> >
> >Again, no one on this newsgroup has ever said you can't do what the hell
you
> >want in your kitchen. I've been here for over 3 years and I don't
remember
> >such a thing. You are making stuff up.
>
> I have repeatedly typed "eat/buy" and "restaurant/home cooking" with
> the same pooh-pooh response. Mostly from Ian, I guess. I can't enjoy
> Thai food; I can only say I enjoy Thai food as prepared in the US.
> Pardon me. OK. I don't like Mexican food. I like US Southwest
> Mexican-ancestry food as prepared in certain New Mexico restaurants,
> and some I make at home after 20 years in New Mexico. I don't like
> Indian food, but food prepared from recipes in books and on web sites
> (in English) with what I naively imagine to be Indian flavors.

You like food. That's fine. And depending on the ingredients you get and
the quality of the recipes, you may be making pretty authentic dishes. But
in my mind, authenticity is about learning the rules so well that you can
improvise. I know how to make tarte tatin to the point that it will taste
good if I add armagnac to it. It's as authentic as it can be, seeing as how
I can get French butter, but not milk from French cows or flour from French
mills, or apples that are found only in France. But still, I think my local
okonomiyaki place is pretty authentic, even though their style is different
from another joint in the same neighborhood.

Personally, I think you're letting the ribbing get to you. My Puerto Rican
friend, who was taught to roll pasta and make sauce by her Sicilian
ex-mother-in-law, makes real Southern Italian cuisine circa 1930. The fact
that Italian cuisine has moved away from red sauces and that my friend is
not Italian does not change the authenticity (and yes, she often uses
Italian flour). She can make a Fra Diavolo that would have broken Frank
Sinatra's heart. Food is always a time machine- it's a snapshot of a
particular culinary moment. Sometimes that moment involves fusion. That's
why Tex-Mex is so radically different from real Mexican food, but so
obviously related to the point of being a branch from a larger tree called
'Latin American cuisine'.
> >
>
> >To tell you the truth, I like topics like this, and would gladly discuss
it
> >further. I don't like, however, how you seem to be accusing us of things
we
> >don't do.
>
> I do to. It's certainly provided a little activity here. :-) The
> problem is, as in "a vast topic", it's a highly nuanced discussion. My
> beef (!) is that I get the impression, rightly or wrongly, that I
> *can't* enjoy/like/appreciate what I experience because it's not the
> Real Thing. You said, for example, that "you can't get German bread in
> the US." Well, yes you can. You can mail-order or have a friend send
> some, for one thing. I'm not a German ('scuse me -- German-inspired,
> pale imitation) food fan, but I'm willing to bet there are, somewhere
> in the 50 states, a few communities of heavily German
> ancestry/immigration where bread is made that is virtually
> indistinguishable from that in the original country (or 2 or 6). You
> can't *easily* get German bread in the US. Unless it's a function of
> ambient yeast populations, as in SF sourdough, you can probably make
> and eat German bread.
>
>
> >You're right. We don't just report back on trips. Have you really been
> >following this group long? I don't think Steve has ever been to Vietnam
> >like I have, but he seems to know the cuisine better than I do. I don't
> >recall a traveler vs. non-traveler division on this group.
>
> See Ian's postings.
>
> >
> >> I started the thread this evolved from by a serious question about why
> >> so many say authentic/correct Chinese food can't be made at home
> >> because only restaurant stoves are powerful enough for the purpose.
> >> And I never did get a sensible answer.
> >
> >
> >Hey! You never replied to my post. How was my answer not sensible?
>
> You agreed with me. No need to follow up. Thank you?
> >
> >I hope on going to Oaxaca again next summer. I met an American there
once
> >who drove down--it can be done. See ya there!
>
> Enjoy.

"Peter Dy" > wrote in message
. com...
>

>
> Hey! But I do have a couple of nice food pics from my last trip to
Oaxaca!
> And a few pics of Dutch snacks from my most recent trip--forgot the camera
> for my big goose meal in Frankfurt!!. Do you think I should I post them
on
> that pet newsgroup again?
>
> Peter
>
>

Hmm, if you have pictures of meat they would technically be allowed on that
ng since it's for animal pics but I don't think the others would appreciate
it too much :-). They did have pictures of kitchens on there, though.

webshots.com is one of the better free album sites I've found--you're
allowed 10 (?) albums of 24 pictures each and they don't expire
(picturetrail deletes your pics after 3 months if you don't pay). I have 4
albums just for food and even included my lousy dinner at Corner Bakery (it
was late, I was starving)!

Is goose similar to duck in flavour? That's what I've always imagined.

rona
--
***For e-mail, replace .com with .ca Sorry for the inconvenience!***

On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 01:13:04 GMT, "Tea" > wrote:

>
>"Frogleg" > wrote

>> So help me out, here. Waitstaff in Chinese restaurants are all slim as
>> minnows, and the food served is *way* over the top with battered (?)
>> deep-fry and glutinous sauce. Do they eat *anything* on the menu,
>
>It depends on where you are. I live in Manhattan.

I envy you the food experiences.

>Also, much of what is served in any restaurant is 'banquet' food.

Good point.
>
>My neighborhood is not far from a developing Little Tokyo.
>I'm beginning to realize tha by living
>where I do, I'm getting a much different look at what the average Japanese
>really eats, and most of it looks like nothing served in any restaurant most
>people in the West have seen unless they live near a neighborhood like mine.

Yes, 'everyday' food is frequently quite different. Restaurant
portions, too, are frequently giagantic. #1 Kitchen's lunches are
usually enough for 3 meals, plus a pint of soup.

>> What bothers me is being told (I guess Ian
>> has been pushing this view) that it is not possible to have a "nice
>> Chinese meal" in the US.
>
>Again- it depends on what you mean by 'nice'.
>does not mean that you cannot and will not find gifted Chinese cooks working
>in the US.
> But I would suspect
>that most Chinese food in the US is horrid- just as most food in the US is
>horrid.

The little take-out shops in *my* city are certainly nothing to
treasure.

However, (and I'm going to be flamed again, I expect) I just don't see
how anyone can say "most food in the US is horrid." rfc has periodic
discussions on "typical" American food. Typical where? It's a big
country. Often it's interpreted to mean fast food and assisted
hamburger, as if that were the only food for 290,000,000 totally
homogenous people. The variety of foods available, the various
contributions of hundreds of "ethnic" groups, the fine restaurants of
big cities, home cooks -- both traditional and adventurous, regional
specialties, etc., etc. mean that most US food is no more horrid than
most Indonesian food or most Swedish food. What's so horrid about
apple pie? Or a boiled lobster? Or a taco, gumbo, California-style
pizza, steak (medium-rare, please), bowl of mid-western noodles or
soba, cheese (not enough), crab cake, or meat loaf? The US isn't the
only place where not everyone is an accomplished cook and not all
restaurant dishes are to die for.

> In many parts of the US, you'll be hard-pressed to get decent local
>bread without going to a high-priced gourmet food shop.

I agree. I moved from the SF Bay area to Virigina and was *appalled*
at what passes for bread here (and continue to be). I make my own from
time to time and watch for the occasional offering of 'bread you can
chew' in the supermarket.

>Many people think
>McDonalds is a real restaurant; ditto places like The Olive Garden, where
>the food is literally poured out of containers, out of the sight of
>customers.

And many Japanese think KFC is a holiday treat. McDonald's is all over
the world. There *must* be something appealing ('though horrid) about
this food. How come we're idiots and never eat anything else, while
they're living in a food paradise with occasional lapses?

>You like food. That's fine. And depending on the ingredients you get and
>the quality of the recipes, you may be making pretty authentic dishes. But
>in my mind, authenticity is about learning the rules so well that you can
>improvise. I know how to make tarte tatin to the point that it will taste
>good if I add armagnac to it. It's as authentic as it can be, seeing as how
>I can get French butter, but not milk from French cows or flour from French
>mills, or apples that are found only in France. But still, I think my local
>okonomiyaki place is pretty authentic, even though their style is different
>from another joint in the same neighborhood.

That's what I mean. Some kind person posted a reference to a Malay
food site which really looks interesting. I was struck by the intro:
"Malaysian food is not one particular distinction of food but a
culinary diversity originating from it's multi ethnic population..."
This is not too different from what I've been saying about food in the
US. McDonald's is in Malasia, too. That doesn't mean that the people
there eat only at McDonald's. How come *they* can have Malay-Chinese
and Malay-Indian and Malay-Eurasian food, and call it Malay, and not
be called Philistines for not only enjoying it, but showing it off?
(Not your post, but others.)

OK. Much of my cooking is American cooking. I like American cooking. I
like it in a wok; I like it in a pot. (Oh, geez -- sorry). I cook with
ingredients my mother never heard of. I enjoy a tiny Thai (-style)
restaurant where the cooks are Thai immigrants. I enjoy a long-lived
Afghan restaurant in Arlington, and an Ethiopian one in DC. I
researched recipes and bought a special pan for making 'imitation'
injera. Does an Ethiopian immigrant stop making 'Ethiopian' food when
he/she can't find tef?

>Personally, I think you're letting the ribbing get to you.

I think I can agree with that. :-) I do enjoy a good argument, erm,
discussion.

"> >"Frogleg" > wrote

>
> I envy you the food experiences.

Don't envy the food experiences - OK you can't afford or don't want to
afford to travel, but, you can look on the internet, do some reading of good
cook books - people here have a good selection of authentic favourites which
they will recommend(I should know, I've lurked for ages!!!) and source some
authentic ingredients and you can move away from a position of relative
ignorance! You can cook good food at home. You can cook authentic food at
home - just don't use the sauce mixes, the red gloopy stuff and the
preprepared deep fry in 2 inches of hot oil then serve with microwave for 2
mins rice!

>
> OK. Much of my cooking is American cooking. I like American cooking. I
> like it in a wok; I like it in a pot. (Oh, geez -- sorry). I cook with
> ingredients my mother never heard of. I enjoy a tiny Thai (-style)
> restaurant where the cooks are Thai immigrants. I enjoy a long-lived
> Afghan restaurant in Arlington, and an Ethiopian one in DC. I
> researched recipes and bought a special pan for making 'imitation'
> injera. Does an Ethiopian immigrant stop making 'Ethiopian' food when
> he/she can't find tef?

Like American cooking - like Chinese American cooking, but it isn't always
authentic! By the way - all these references to immigrants! Where are your
folks from?

Also, with reference to Malay food - yes there is a fusion - read about it -
it's interesting and probably an early example of fusing the best from
cultures, rather than lowering a cuisine to the lowest common denominator
for the lowest price/ highest profit margin!

I love watching discussions (hmmmm arguments), but have to agree that in my
experience, Ian has never been snide, rather, he has been helpful and
knowledgeable.

Rita (originally from Penang, Malaysia, now living in London)
>
..

On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 23:16:53 -0000, "ahem" >
wrote:

>
>"> >"Frogleg" > wrote

>> I envy you the food experiences.
>
>Don't envy the food experiences - OK you can't afford or don't want to
>afford to travel, but, you can look on the internet, do some reading of good
>cook books - people here have a good selection of authentic favourites which
>they will recommend(I should know, I've lurked for ages!!!) and source some
>authentic ingredients and you can move away from a position of relative
>ignorance! You can cook good food at home. You can cook authentic food at
>home - just don't use the sauce mixes, the red gloopy stuff and the
>preprepared deep fry in 2 inches of hot oil then serve with microwave for 2
>mins rice!

1) Permit me to envy someone living in NYC (or DC or London or Sydney
or Hong Kong) their access to a zillion restaurants of every sort, and
plenty of places to buy ingredients for 'home' cooking.

2) I can barely afford to keep the lights on. When I *did* have some
discretionary income, I toyed with the idea of flying to Amsterdam for
the weekend, mostly to go to some Indonesian resaturants and visit the
Rijksmuseum. I learned, however, that at that time, the museum was
closed from Saturday afternoon 'til Monday morning. Yes, I'd *like* to
be able to travel. I don't see why poverty should be interpreted as
"don't want to afford to travel."

3) What you describe, searching the web, using the cookbooks I have
and those at the library, and haunting the two Asian (Korean/Thai)
markets in my city is precisely what I've been doing. My Indian
friends got quite a giggle out of my first attempt at dosa -- I'd
never had it at a restaurant. Believe me, you can go *way* wrong with
dosa.

4) In what post have I indicated that my own cooking is of the
assisted hamburger variety? That I use and am satisfied with packets
and boxes and jars I can m'wave?

>
>>
>> OK. Much of my cooking is American cooking. I like American cooking. I
>> like it in a wok; I like it in a pot. (Oh, geez -- sorry). I cook with
>> ingredients my mother never heard of. I enjoy a tiny Thai (-style)
>> restaurant where the cooks are Thai immigrants. I enjoy a long-lived
>> Afghan restaurant in Arlington, and an Ethiopian one in DC. I
>> researched recipes and bought a special pan for making 'imitation'
>> injera. Does an Ethiopian immigrant stop making 'Ethiopian' food when
>> he/she can't find tef?
>
>Like American cooking - like Chinese American cooking, but it isn't always
>authentic! By the way - all these references to immigrants! Where are your
>folks from?

I am a documented descendent of Pocahontas and John Rolfe. I am about
as "white" as one can get, with nearly all identifiable ancestors
being (ouside of Pocahontas) English, Irish, and Scotch. Is it any
wonder I seek out other cusines? :-)

>Also, with reference to Malay food - yes there is a fusion - read about it -
>it's interesting and probably an early example of fusing the best from
>cultures, rather than lowering a cuisine to the lowest common denominator
>for the lowest price/ highest profit margin!

If you want to talk about high profit margin, go to China.

"Read about it"? Didn't I just say I *did*? One of my questions is why
Malasians can adapt/include foods from China, India, and Europe and
create an "authentic" cuisine, while Americans (and I didn't really
planned to be pushed into a chauvinistic corner) are beneath contempt
for enthusiastically embracing the contributions of the *many*
different groups who've come to this country over the past 3-4
centuries. Why is it a given that 290 million Americans subsist
entirely on Big Macs and bologna sandwiches, while *all* those living
in Paris, Tokyo, or New Delhi are completely 'uncontaminated' by
outside influence (except exquisitely pure ones) and dine on lotus?

>Rita (originally from Penang, Malaysia, now living in London)

Oh, can I envy you London? I ate mostly Indian food there. Pub grub
was filthy. My first lime pickle! Whoof! And I though New Mexico had
prepared me for hot. (Have a jar in the 'fridge now, purchased in
beneath-contempt USA. Have a recipe, too, and since limes seem to be
on sale now, might just give it a try.)

"BubbaBob" > wrote in message
...
> "ahem" > wrote:
The flavor difference is staggering. My SIL
> is Ethiopian and has never had a problem locating Ethiopian tef.


OK, this is the second time it's come up in this thread, so I'll just ask:
What is SIL?

Peter

"Peter Dy" > wrote in message
. com...
>
> "BubbaBob" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "ahem" > wrote:
> The flavor difference is staggering. My SIL
> > is Ethiopian and has never had a problem locating Ethiopian tef.
>
>
> OK, this is the second time it's come up in this thread, so I'll just ask:
> What is SIL?

Sister In Law. Substitute appropriate letter to get MotherIL, BrotherIL,
etc.

I'm late to this discussion, I thought this was actually a technical
discussion on BTUs and I waited to read it till I had time to take some
notes for a (someday) kitchen remodel!

I wish BubbaBob would chime in on what he meant about Vietnamese cooking
here in the US, because I think FrogLeg would understand better what he
means, given his clear appreciation for "ethnic" -- if not exotic :-) --
food.

I am by *no means* the expert on Asian cooking that DC, Steve Wertz, Ian,
kalanamak and other afa'ers are. However, I am an enthusiast who has been
fortunate enough to travel in SE Asia. BubbaBob's comment resonated with me
because I'd eaten lots of Vietnamese food in the US before going there and
was struck by the fact that in my area, we can get food that tastes
strikingly like what I enjoyed in South Vietnam. Certainly we don't get all
the variety, but the balance of flavors is more true than I've found for
Thai, Cambodian or Burmese food here in the San Francisco Bay Area.

I assumed that what BubbaBob meant was that most restaurants haven't
succumbed to Vietnamese versions of General's Chicken or other dishes
prepared to appeal to a... what? mainstream? unadventurous? uneducated?
(meant in a non-subjective way, as in "I am uneducated about the food of
Ghana") audience.

I think Thai food in the US has changed since I started eating it 1.5
decades ago. Perhaps just my tastes have. I'm not old enough to comment on
changes in Chinese food since the '50s, although IMO it's getting better
with the rise of regionally-focused Chinese food. And I think there's a
place for Americanized Chinese food here in America. Lots of people like it,
and even the most aesthetic eaters often crave those familiar dishes. But I
would be very sad if it became harder to find what I think of as "authentic"
Vietnamese food here, and I was left with deep fried beef balls in my pho or
some insane batter-fried summer roll with cheese ;-)

-Amalia

On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 20:01:15 GMT, "amalia"
> wrote:

>I'm late to this discussion, I thought this was actually a technical
>discussion on BTUs and I waited to read it till I had time to take some
>notes for a (someday) kitchen remodel!

Did you find the original thread on Google? I started it by asking why
I kept hearing/reading that 'real' Chinese food couldn't be made at
home, or at least a home without a supercharged industrial-strength
stove. My understanding was that much of Chinese cooking evolved with
a great deal of concentration on efficient use of fuel. I just
couldn't (can't) believe that every Chinese home and restaurant is
furnished with an 18,000 BTU gas stove of some sort. [As a sidebar, if
I can set 2 Tblsp. of oil in an untended wok on fire in 90 seconds,
isn't that hot enough?]
>
>I wish BubbaBob would chime in on what he meant about Vietnamese cooking
>here in the US, because I think FrogLeg would understand better what he
>means, given his clear appreciation for "ethnic" -- if not exotic :-) --
>food.
>
>I am by *no means* the expert on Asian cooking that DC, Steve Wertz, Ian,
>kalanamak and other afa'ers are. However, I am an enthusiast who has been
>fortunate enough to travel in SE Asia. BubbaBob's comment resonated with me
>because I'd eaten lots of Vietnamese food in the US before going there and
>was struck by the fact that in my area, we can get food that tastes
>strikingly like what I enjoyed in South Vietnam. Certainly we don't get all
>the variety, but the balance of flavors is more true than I've found for
>Thai, Cambodian or Burmese food here in the San Francisco Bay Area.
>
>I assumed that what BubbaBob meant was that most restaurants haven't
>succumbed to Vietnamese versions of General's Chicken or other dishes
>prepared to appeal to a... what? mainstream? unadventurous? uneducated?
>(meant in a non-subjective way, as in "I am uneducated about the food of
>Ghana") audience.
>
>I think Thai food in the US has changed since I started eating it 1.5
>decades ago. Perhaps just my tastes have. I'm not old enough to comment on
>changes in Chinese food since the '50s, although IMO it's getting better
>with the rise of regionally-focused Chinese food. And I think there's a
>place for Americanized Chinese food here in America. Lots of people like it,
>and even the most aesthetic eaters often crave those familiar dishes. But I
>would be very sad if it became harder to find what I think of as "authentic"
>Vietnamese food here, and I was left with deep fried beef balls in my pho or
>some insane batter-fried summer roll with cheese ;-)

Thank you, Amelia. I have tried, with very little success, to suggest
that a blanket condemnation of all "foreign" food available in the US
as the equivalent of opening a can of Chef Boyardee or Chung King is
mistaken. And also that it is possible to have genuine experiences of
the food of other cultures/countries without going to Hungary for
palacsinta and Hong Kong for crab in milk. There are surely many
dishes and ingredients available *only* in their native habitat. I
*know* that Taco Bell doesn't serve the same food as a Mexico City
street vendor, nor do I expect I'm getting a real tast of China at #1
Kitchen. I figure the tiny Thai grocery & 8 table restaurant where the
cooking is done by the (formerly) Thai wife and her relatives *did*
introduce me to many examples of non-banquet, genuine Thai food. If
many Americans are averse to 'spicy/hot' and choose Pad Thai instead
of Yum Nua, perhaps many Thais do, too.

Rather than view US offerings of 'foreign' food as watered down, why
not think of those influences that ginger up(!) US food tastes as
positive? No one wants a homgenous world culture, but the sky won't
fall if Malasians turn out to like McDonald's fries and Americans use
more salsa than catsup.

I've been following this thread on a on & off basis, where time permits me &
i must say there are some interesting points metioned but i've since lost
track of the original question & how it's moved on to where it is now. So
please forgive me if i'm going over old ground. I've also provided my
answers below in point form as i think there's simply too much to elaborate
on in an newsgroup article like this.

> >"> >"Frogleg" > wrote
>
> "Read about it"? Didn't I just say I *did*? One of my questions is why
> Malasians can adapt/include foods from China, India, and Europe and
> create an "authentic" cuisine,
<Snip>

IMHO, the SE Asians (Malaysians, Thais, Singaporeans, Vietnamese,
Phillipinos, Indonesians etc) are better at adapting & creating an
"authentic" cuisine or fusion of foods is because :

1. They more or less share the same ingredients & staple diet.
2. Some of them share the same local cultures & traditions.
3. And where religion is involved, it determines their diet & cuisine.
4. The people of this region have over the years traded & inter-married with
each other.
5. With the arrival of trading ships, firstly the Arab & Chinese & later
European powers like the British, the Dutch, the Portuguese, the Spaniards &
the French, colonisation of various countries within the region & the
movement of local labour within the region created a sort of "melting pot"
of cultures & this is esp. true in it's cuisine.
6. All this happened over the last 500 or more years ago.
7. Traditional Asians dine together as a family & even as an extended
family, therefore cooking & eating is an important daily event. You'll find
that traditional Asian families have very strong matriarchial ties & a
'passion' for cuisine/food is instilled in children at an early age.

That's why Malaysians & other SE Asians are quite well at adapting &
creating "authentic" cuisine of various fusions. You can say it's almost
part of their culture now & this is esp. true of their modern cuisine. From
housewives to streetside hawkers to rest. chefs, it's no longer just an
amalgam or fusion of local or global taste & ingredients, it's now moved on
to adapting old techniques & old recipes with modern appliances & modern
recipes. It's an ongoing process & evolution of their cuisine.

For an insight into some of the 'fusion' cuisines & culture, try looking up
'Straits Chinese' or 'Peranakans' or 'Nonya' or 'Baba'. The 'Perankans' -
collective term for the People & Culture of the Straits Chinese are
currently undergoing a bit of a revival, so it's a bit easier finding
something about them now than before. You'll also find Historical facts for
Penang, Malacca & Singapore interesting and perhaps give you a better
understanding why these places have such diverse cultures & cuisine.

On a historical note, Thailand (Siam) was never colonised by any European
powers but it still had it's fair share of trade with neighbouring countries
& that's why you'll still find a Chinatown in Bangkok & soya sauce (as an
example) used in local dishes.

On a general note, immigration &/or migration of people plays an important
role in which Food & Cuisine evolves from country to country. That's why
there are many versions of fried rice & noodles etc. some cooked by people
who still uses the old recipes & techniques while others make them up to how
they like it or more the case, how their customers like it.

> >"> >"Frogleg" > wrote
> while Americans (and I didn't really
> planned to be pushed into a chauvinistic corner) are beneath contempt
> for enthusiastically embracing the contributions of the *many*
> different groups who've come to this country over the past 3-4
> centuries. Why is it a given that 290 million Americans subsist
> entirely on Big Macs and bologna sandwiches, while *all* those living
> in Paris, Tokyo, or New Delhi are completely 'uncontaminated' by
> outside influence (except exquisitely pure ones) and dine on lotus?

Perhaps someone who has a better understanding of American Culture & History
might be better in providing you the answers. I often find that the further
you are away from your own country & culture, you tend to see things
clearer, if you're familiar with the term "can't see the wood for the
trees", you'll know what i mean. My own views on American Culture & Cuisine
are i'm afraid 'tainted' by what i see in the movies & TV, so i'm in no
position to comment on why "290 million Americans subsist entirely on Big
Macs and bologna sandwiches" but i can always speculate.


> >Rita (originally from Penang, Malaysia, now living in London)
>
> Oh, can I envy you London? I ate mostly Indian food there. Pub grub
> was filthy. My first lime pickle! Whoof! And I though New Mexico had
> prepared me for hot. (Have a jar in the 'fridge now, purchased in
> beneath-contempt USA. Have a recipe, too, and since limes seem to be
> on sale now, might just give it a try.)

Good on you for giving it a try, you might want to have it with your Xmas
dinner, definetly gives it a lift.

DC.

"Frogleg" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 23:16:53 -0000, "ahem" >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"> >"Frogleg" > wrote
>
> >> I envy you the food experiences.
> >
> >Don't envy the food experiences - OK you can't afford or don't want to
> >afford to travel, but, you can look on the internet, do some reading of
good
> >cook books - people here have a good selection of authentic favourites
which
> >they will recommend(I should know, I've lurked for ages!!!) and source
some
> >authentic ingredients and you can move away from a position of relative
> >ignorance! You can cook good food at home. You can cook authentic food at
> >home - just don't use the sauce mixes, the red gloopy stuff and the
> >preprepared deep fry in 2 inches of hot oil then serve with microwave for
2
> >mins rice!
>
> 1) Permit me to envy someone living in NYC (or DC or London or Sydney
> or Hong Kong) their access to a zillion restaurants of every sort, and
> plenty of places to buy ingredients for 'home' cooking.

I guess I am very fortunate, or I have had the fortune to make good choices.
I like living in London where there is genuine food (Brick Lane for food
from the Asian subcontinent etc etc etc) and some OK supermarkets and to
have travelled.
>
> 2) I can barely afford to keep the lights on. When I *did* have some
> discretionary income, I toyed with the idea of flying to Amsterdam for
> the weekend, mostly to go to some Indonesian resaturants and visit the
> Rijksmuseum. I learned, however, that at that time, the museum was
> closed from Saturday afternoon 'til Monday morning. Yes, I'd *like* to
> be able to travel. I don't see why poverty should be interpreted as
> "don't want to afford to travel."

You saw what I wrote - can't or don't want to - didn't make any assumptions
about your financial state. Didn't interpret from the info/ couldn't
anyway.... Did not mean an insult!
>
> 3) What you describe, searching the web, using the cookbooks I have
> and those at the library, and haunting the two Asian (Korean/Thai)
> markets in my city is precisely what I've been doing. My Indian
> friends got quite a giggle out of my first attempt at dosa -- I'd
> never had it at a restaurant. Believe me, you can go *way* wrong with
> dosa.
>
I agree - when I lived in Penang, my attempts at English scones and cream
left a little to be desired ) and my friend at school brought minced beef
to a cooking class to make mince pies (sweet preserves of currants. raisins
and peel - no meat except for suet!)

> 4) In what post have I indicated that my own cooking is of the
> assisted hamburger variety? That I use and am satisfied with packets
> and boxes and jars I can m'wave?
>
Please! Don't take things personally - I was sticking up for you - some
people cook using packets and mixes and say it's authentic, just as some
Chinese takeaways serve red sweet gloop and say it's Chinese! So, yes, if
you use fresh ingredients and do research, it's good food and as authentic
as you can make it in your home town.

> >>
> >> OK. Much of my cooking is American cooking. I like American cooking. I
> >> like it in a wok; I like it in a pot. (Oh, geez -- sorry). I cook with
> >> ingredients my mother never heard of. I enjoy a tiny Thai (-style)
> >> restaurant where the cooks are Thai immigrants. I enjoy a long-lived
> >> Afghan restaurant in Arlington, and an Ethiopian one in DC. I
> >> researched recipes and bought a special pan for making 'imitation'
> >> injera. Does an Ethiopian immigrant stop making 'Ethiopian' food when
> >> he/she can't find tef?
> >
> >Like American cooking - like Chinese American cooking, but it isn't
always
> >authentic! By the way - all these references to immigrants! Where are
your
> >folks from?
>
> I am a documented descendent of Pocahontas and John Rolfe. I am about
> as "white" as one can get, with nearly all identifiable ancestors
> being (ouside of Pocahontas) English, Irish, and Scotch. Is it any
> wonder I seek out other cusines? :-)

No wonder - just as I tried to make English food and French food etc etc!!
)

> >Also, with reference to Malay food - yes there is a fusion - read about
it -
> >it's interesting and probably an early example of fusing the best from
> >cultures, rather than lowering a cuisine to the lowest common denominator
> >for the lowest price/ highest profit margin!
>
> If you want to talk about high profit margin, go to China.

Or to the US! Why China, out of interest?

> "Read about it"? Didn't I just say I *did*? One of my questions is why
> Malasians can adapt/include foods from China, India, and Europe and
> create an "authentic" cuisine, while Americans (and I didn't really
> planned to be pushed into a chauvinistic corner) are beneath contempt
> for enthusiastically embracing the contributions of the *many*
> different groups who've come to this country over the past 3-4
> centuries. Why is it a given that 290 million Americans subsist
> entirely on Big Macs and bologna sandwiches, while *all* those living
> in Paris, Tokyo, or New Delhi are completely 'uncontaminated' by
> outside influence (except exquisitely pure ones) and dine on lotus?
>
> >Rita (originally from Penang, Malaysia, now living in London)
>
> Oh, can I envy you London? I ate mostly Indian food there. Pub grub
> was filthy. My first lime pickle! Whoof! And I though New Mexico had
> prepared me for hot. (Have a jar in the 'fridge now, purchased in
> beneath-contempt USA. Have a recipe, too, and since limes seem to be
> on sale now, might just give it a try.)

Pub grub is not always filthy now - some very good pubs near me and in the
suburbs (Berkshire in particular.....) Indian food is great in London. Malay
food - almost nonexistent.

Come on frogleg - let's swap recipes - this SHOULD be fun and educational!
Sometimes just fun, sometimes just educational, sometimes neither!!! ;-))

Rita

"Frogleg" > wrote in message
news
> On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 02:00:44 GMT, "Peter Dy" >
> wrote:
> >
> >We never talk about specific restaurants,
> >except for maybe recommendations. Again, I think your complaints are
> >misplaced--we don't do what you accuse us of doing.
>
> Maybe not you, although you *did* accuse me of being un-Jeffersonian
> for not traveling, and also, indirectly, of spending my money on an
> SUV. :-)


Hehehe... Lo siento.


I'm *tired* of being told my enjoyment of
> other-than-burger cusine is bugus because I *haven't* tasted "real"
> Vietnamese or French or Northern Italian food in situ, so my delight,
> too, is bogus. I might just open up a can of Franco-American
> spaghetti, and forget about trying another (so-called) Thai recipe
> that will *obviously* fall far short of Bangkok street food.


Who do you hang out with?! I have met people who often complain that some
other place has a better version, but I don't run into them often. And
usually they are people who don't cook.


[...]
> >So, which post was it here that raised your ire? I'm confused.
Bubbabob's
> >about Cantonese food having been "ruined in the 50's"? I think that was
> >perhaps clumsily worded, but it is a fact that Chinese restaurants had
menus
> >back then geared towards "Western tastes", with things the Chinese
running
> >the place never ate.
>
> So help me out, here. Waitstaff in Chinese restaurants are all slim as
> minnows, and the food served is *way* over the top with battered (?)
> deep-fry and glutinous sauce. Do they eat *anything* on the menu, or
> have some secret kitchen in the back, a la Trillin?


First, I was talking about Chinese restaurants in the 50's to the early
80's. As for now, they probably don't eat from the menu if it is a bad
Chinese restaurant.


[...]
> >Again, no one on this newsgroup has ever said you can't do what the hell
you
> >want in your kitchen. I've been here for over 3 years and I don't
remember
> >such a thing. You are making stuff up.
>
> I have repeatedly typed "eat/buy" and "restaurant/home cooking" with
> the same pooh-pooh response. Mostly from Ian, I guess. I can't enjoy
> Thai food; I can only say I enjoy Thai food as prepared in the US.
> Pardon me. OK. I don't like Mexican food. I like US Southwest
> Mexican-ancestry food as prepared in certain New Mexico restaurants,
> and some I make at home after 20 years in New Mexico. I don't like
> Indian food, but food prepared from recipes in books and on web sites
> (in English) with what I naively imagine to be Indian flavors.
> >
>
> >To tell you the truth, I like topics like this, and would gladly discuss
it
> >further. I don't like, however, how you seem to be accusing us of things
we
> >don't do.
>
> I do to. It's certainly provided a little activity here. :-) The
> problem is, as in "a vast topic", it's a highly nuanced discussion. My
> beef (!) is that I get the impression, rightly or wrongly, that I
> *can't* enjoy/like/appreciate what I experience because it's not the
> Real Thing.


You go to an ethnic restaurant and enjoy the food. Then, someone of that
ethnicity invites you over for dinner, and the food they serve is way
different. You don't feel like false advertising or cultural
misrepresentaion was at work? I don't care if you like Chinese dishes with
brocolli or Mexican tacos with shredded cheddar cheese on top -- that
doesn't mean one can't easily learn about the Chinese or Mexican cuisine as
historical and cultural entities. So, yeah, for me it is in large part a
cultural thing; I like learning about other cultures. I don't like things
dumbed down to appeal to my "American tastes."


You said, for example, that "you can't get German bread in
> the US." Well, yes you can. You can mail-order or have a friend send
> some, for one thing. I'm not a German ('scuse me -- German-inspired,
> pale imitation) food fan, but I'm willing to bet there are, somewhere
> in the 50 states, a few communities of heavily German
> ancestry/immigration where bread is made that is virtually
> indistinguishable from that in the original country (or 2 or 6). You
> can't *easily* get German bread in the US. Unless it's a function of
> ambient yeast populations, as in SF sourdough, you can probably make
> and eat German bread.


There is German bread here in the States that taste good, like German.
Still, they are nothing like freshly baked German breads. It has less to do
with any supposed "elitism" on my part, than the fact that flour, etc, in
Germany isn't the same as here. Also, German backeries are cranking out
bread non-stop for finicky customers; American backers of German bread
simply cannot hope to match such freshness and remain economically viable.

Still, when I write stuff like that, or read things similar, I make a note
in my mind that I need to check out that dish in the home country. It
becomes a quest. I will still eat American bread while I am here, but I
don't feel inferior not knowing the original.


> >You're right. We don't just report back on trips. Have you really been
> >following this group long? I don't think Steve has ever been to Vietnam
> >like I have, but he seems to know the cuisine better than I do. I don't
> >recall a traveler vs. non-traveler division on this group.
>
> See Ian's postings.


Yeah, but see your original post, where you sounded sorta xenophobic, and
flag-waving. You said something like "I don't care if I ever taste
authentic foods from other cultures." You've since explained yourself in
greater detail. I really thought you had something against those who travel
outside of the US.


> >> I started the thread this evolved from by a serious question about why
> >> so many say authentic/correct Chinese food can't be made at home
> >> because only restaurant stoves are powerful enough for the purpose.
> >> And I never did get a sensible answer.
> >
> >
> >Hey! You never replied to my post. How was my answer not sensible?
>
> You agreed with me. No need to follow up. Thank you?


So, you did, in fact, get a sensible answer.


> >I hope on going to Oaxaca again next summer. I met an American there
once
> >who drove down--it can be done. See ya there!
>
> Enjoy.


You're not coming with me?! That was an invitation!

Peter

On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 11:43:45 GMT, "Peter Dy" >
wrote:

>
>"Frogleg" > wrote

>> On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 02:00:44 GMT, "Peter Dy" >
>> wrote:

>[...]
>> >Again, no one on this newsgroup has ever said you can't do what the hell
>you
>> >want in your kitchen. I've been here for over 3 years and I don't
>remember
>> >such a thing. You are making stuff up.
>>
>> I have repeatedly typed "eat/buy" and "restaurant/home cooking" with
>> the same pooh-pooh response. Mostly from Ian, I guess. I can't enjoy
>> Thai food; I can only say I enjoy Thai food as prepared in the US.
>> Pardon me. OK. I don't like Mexican food. I like US Southwest
>> Mexican-ancestry food as prepared in certain New Mexico restaurants,
>> and some I make at home after 20 years in New Mexico. I don't like
>> Indian food, but food prepared from recipes in books and on web sites
>> (in English) with what I naively imagine to be Indian flavors.
>> >
>> > I don't like, however, how you seem to be accusing us of things
>>>we
>> >don't do.
>>
>> My
>> beef (!) is that I get the impression, rightly or wrongly, that I
>> *can't* enjoy/like/appreciate what I experience because it's not the
>> Real Thing.
>
>
>I don't care if you like Chinese dishes with
>brocolli or Mexican tacos with shredded cheddar cheese on top -- that
>doesn't mean one can't easily learn about the Chinese or Mexican cuisine as
>historical and cultural entities. So, yeah, for me it is in large part a
>cultural thing; I like learning about other cultures. I don't like things
>dumbed down to appeal to my "American tastes."

Again, define "dumbed down" and "American tastes." I hate to sound
like a one-trick pony, but the example of chop suey keeps coming to
mind. It *was*, from all I understand, a creation of Chinese cooks for
Chinese customers. In the US. Some dumb, hungry, whitebread types
stumbled in and said, "gee -- this is good. What's it called?" and so
"mixed pieces" or "fried mixed pieces" was born. A little confusion
about the etymology. Certainly a case of "Americans" adapting to
Chinese tastes, rather than the reverse.

I admit a reluctance to even *try* what I think of as "icky stuff."
This includes animal feet of any description (unless crab claws count
as feet). I don't like animal fat (except crisp bacon -- go figure). I
like 'smooth' things with no surprises. No KFC for me. So are my
tastes "American" or personally idiosyncratic? I like venison. I adore
spicy-hot anywhere it can reasonably be applied. Garlic, ginger,
chile, lime pickle, kim chee. I often make an "Indonesian" beef stew
with cinnamon, clove, and cardomom. I love cilantro almost anywhere. I
never found any recipes for bitter melon (which I grew) that seemed
worth the trouble, but it's a very interesting veg.

I guess what I resent is having a huge population with a vast variety
of food preferences lumped into a know-nothing group with no taste
whatsoever. Sure, there's the mac&cheese, "gimme a nice steak and
potato" crowd. (I don't mind a nice steak and potato myself), but is
the whole country assumed to have the same taste?

What's so awful about broccoli in "Chinese" food? Yes, it's of
European origin, and thus not "authentic." What about chiles? Or
tomatoes? Cheddar in tacos? You have a point. But given the
availability of queso fresca, one must make do. It may not be
"authentic" to make enchiladas with ricotta and spinach, but it's a
pretty tasty adaptation.

>Still, when I write stuff like that, or read things similar, I make a note
>in my mind that I need to check out that dish in the home country. It
>becomes a quest. I will still eat American bread while I am here, but I
>don't feel inferior not knowing the original.

?? You want to rewind that sentence? :-) Did you perhaps mean you
have really enjoyed German bread in situ? And maintain the
quality/taste there is, in general and readily available, superior? I
agree with you entirely. Bread here (SE corner of Virginia) is
universally dismal. I made a special trip to a bakery 'famous' for its
"French" bread. Crispy crust (for half a day) and cotton interior.
Perfectly ghastly. However, I *know* I can get good bread in the SF
Bay area, and I'm fairly sure I could find good bread in NYC or
Detroit or New Orleans or many midwestern towns.

>Yeah, but see your original post, where you sounded sorta xenophobic, and
>flag-waving. You said something like "I don't care if I ever taste
>authentic foods from other cultures." You've since explained yourself in
>greater detail. I really thought you had something against those who travel
>outside of the US.

Wrong! I said "Much 'authentic' cuisine is something I frankly have
no desire to sample. I can go to my grave quite satistifed without
ever having sampled chicken feet in any form." Note the *much*.
Perhaps it should have been "some" instead. Given a menu with tripe a
la mode de Caen and, say, boeuf en daube a la provencale, I'd pick the
boeuf. My Chinese step-neice says she doesn't care for cheese. She
didn't grow up with cheese. She finds it odd that it's included in so
many western dishes. Is she eating "watered-down" western food by
choosing to avoid cheese?

I would *love* to experience many dishes in their original locations.
I enjoy reading about others' dining in France or Vietnam or Jakarta.
I'm also tickled that I can buy (some) ingredients from all over the
world, and visit (a few) restaurants with interesting and different
food. I *don't* like being told everything I taste or cook is
distinctly inferior to the Real Thing. Or that I can't say I like Thai
food, only a watered-down, inferior, Thai-American imitation.

What, in fact, *is* "watered down"? I very much doubt *all* Thai food
is full of 'hot' ('though I love what is). Is it "watered down" that
many Americans will dribble soy sauce over their plate in a Chinese
restaurant? I confess (again) that I ask for mushrooms (canned) and
other fungus be omitted from my hot&sour soup at #1 Kitchen. To me,
the flavor (of the fungus) is less important than the texture (similar
to squid/octopus -- like rubber bands that expand upon chewing). I
*have* had tender squid, but not often. And it's not something I seek
out.

If I understood what "American" tastes were supposed to be, maybe I
could explain myself better.

>> >I hope on going to Oaxaca again next summer. I met an American there
>once
>> >who drove down--it can be done. See ya there!
>>
>> Enjoy.
>
>You're not coming with me?! That was an invitation!

Thanks. I'd love to. Find me a job first. You gonna post in
alt.food.mexican? I'm *inspired* by rollybrook.com (see:

http://www.rollybrook.com/tamales.htm

for one starting point.

Now, back to afa -- should I just overwinter my lemon grass it its
pot, or maybe dig up and put in water for new shoots indoors? Too bad
I can't grow water chestnuts. :-)

"Frogleg" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 11:43:45 GMT, "Peter Dy" >
> wrote:
[...]
> >> My
> >> beef (!) is that I get the impression, rightly or wrongly, that I
> >> *can't* enjoy/like/appreciate what I experience because it's not the
> >> Real Thing.
> >
> >
> >I don't care if you like Chinese dishes with
> >brocolli or Mexican tacos with shredded cheddar cheese on top -- that
> >doesn't mean one can't easily learn about the Chinese or Mexican cuisine
as
> >historical and cultural entities. So, yeah, for me it is in large part a
> >cultural thing; I like learning about other cultures. I don't like
things
> >dumbed down to appeal to my "American tastes."
>
> Again, define "dumbed down" and "American tastes."


I know lots of people and have good friends who aren't interested in food at
all. There is nothing unusual in that. Are you interested in food or what?
Do you really not know what "dumbed down" might be? Dumbed down is: "Gee,
even though there are Chinese vegetables pouring out into the streets in the
grocery stores 3 blocks away, and even though the restaurant next door
serves Chinese vegetables, Americans don't like them. So let's put
vegetables they are familiar with on the menu instead. And lets mix them up
with the meat, so it makes them feel like the dish is healthy. And let's
use
basically the same sauce for every dish, since they don't know what
"fish-flavored" dishes are supposed to taste like anyway. And let's stick
to beef, chicken, and shrimp. And let's make it all stir-fry dishes."

And please note, I've been to Chinese restaurants in Virginia, and I said
they were *excellent*. San Francisco, Seattle, New York and Sacramento have
excellent Chinese restaurants. Even Cleveland has some pretty good ones.


I hate to sound
> like a one-trick pony, but the example of chop suey keeps coming to
> mind. It *was*, from all I understand, a creation of Chinese cooks for
> Chinese customers. In the US. Some dumb, hungry, whitebread types
> stumbled in and said, "gee -- this is good. What's it called?" and so
> "mixed pieces" or "fried mixed pieces" was born. A little confusion
> about the etymology. Certainly a case of "Americans" adapting to
> Chinese tastes, rather than the reverse.


Yeah, according to Anderson, there supposedly is a "chop suey" dish in a
part of Canton. But that has to do with Gold Rush era food. I was talking
about restaurants in from the 50's-80's, when there were many more Chinese
in the US -- I don't think they knew chop suey except as an American-Chinese
dish. Check out Ken Hom's "Easy Family Recipes from a Chinese-American
Childhood," for interesting comments on restaurants in those days. (He grew
up in Chicago's Chinatown.)


> I admit a reluctance to even *try* what I think of as "icky stuff."
> This includes animal feet of any description (unless crab claws count
> as feet). I don't like animal fat (except crisp bacon -- go figure). I
> like 'smooth' things with no surprises. No KFC for me. So are my
> tastes "American" or personally idiosyncratic?


Both. I expect the meat in my tacos to have some good chunks of fat in
them. So I think your tastes are "American" in that instance. But if you
don't like feet or grasshoppers, your loss; doesn't mean you aren't
"authentic"


[...]
> I guess what I resent is having a huge population with a vast variety
> of food preferences lumped into a know-nothing group with no taste
> whatsoever. Sure, there's the mac&cheese, "gimme a nice steak and
> potato" crowd. (I don't mind a nice steak and potato myself), but is
> the whole country assumed to have the same taste?


Well, again, I don't think I was complaining about that -- I didn't start
the topic. Like I said, some people just aren't food nerds, or at least
food nerds when it comes to Asian food or other ethnic foods. I like
reading baseball newsgroup messages by guys who know a lot about stats.
Some people resent it, saying they are ruining the fun or whatever. I just
view it as their hobby, I make note of what they say, but I enjoy baseball
games in my own way. I'm interested in baseball stats, but not enough to
make it my hobby.


> What's so awful about broccoli in "Chinese" food? Yes, it's of
> European origin, and thus not "authentic." What about chiles? Or
> tomatoes?


If I go to a Chinese restaurant, I want to eat Chinese vegetables. That is
what I eat at home; they are not hard to get. Safeway and other grocery
stores in my town now carry Chinese eggplants, yardlong beans, bitter melon,
etc. So if I see broccoli on the menu, the rest of the food is almost
always dumbed down (see above for examples). That is different from saying
the Chinese cuisine won't allow broccoli.


> >Still, when I write stuff like that, or read things similar, I make a
note
> >in my mind that I need to check out that dish in the home country. It
> >becomes a quest. I will still eat American bread while I am here, but I
> >don't feel inferior not knowing the original.
>
> ?? You want to rewind that sentence? :-) Did you perhaps mean you
> have really enjoyed German bread in situ? And maintain the
> quality/taste there is, in general and readily available, superior?


If you buy a loaf of extra-crusty bread (Krustenbrot is one name for it)
from a German bakery in Germany, it will taste different on day one and
different yet again on day two. From days 3-5 it is different again. You
can get German bread in the States in plastic bags that taste pretty much
like a German bread in Germany in the day 3-5 stage. So, let's say I
had never been to Germany. I would make a note to check out to see how
special the bread is over there. I would not stop eating the packaged
American bread if I liked it and would not bemoan my lot and think the other
person elitist.


I
> agree with you entirely. Bread here (SE corner of Virginia) is
> universally dismal. I made a special trip to a bakery 'famous' for its
> "French" bread. Crispy crust (for half a day) and cotton interior.
> Perfectly ghastly. However, I *know* I can get good bread in the SF
> Bay area, and I'm fairly sure I could find good bread in NYC or
> Detroit or New Orleans or many midwestern towns.


OK! And that's not to say that SE Virginia doesn't have its own special,
tasty dishes. They just don't have good bread.


> >Yeah, but see your original post, where you sounded sorta xenophobic, and
> >flag-waving. You said something like "I don't care if I ever taste
> >authentic foods from other cultures." You've since explained yourself in
> >greater detail. I really thought you had something against those who
travel
> >outside of the US.
>
> Wrong! I said "Much 'authentic' cuisine is something I frankly have
> no desire to sample. I can go to my grave quite satistifed without
> ever having sampled chicken feet in any form." Note the *much*.
> Perhaps it should have been "some" instead. Given a menu with tripe a
> la mode de Caen and, say, boeuf en daube a la provencale, I'd pick the
> boeuf.


Ok, but you were using a idiosyncratic use of the word "authentic". You are
just squeamish about certain food items you aren't used to -- I don't
like intestines either. But "exotic" food
items is not necessarily the same as "authentic." Even you wrote "authentic
cuisine";
cuisine isn't the same as particular food items or animal parts. I have run
across people who don't like rice, for instance: "Looks like maggots." I
didn't know to which extreme you went.


[...]
> I would *love* to experience many dishes in their original locations.
> I enjoy reading about others' dining in France or Vietnam or Jakarta.
> I'm also tickled that I can buy (some) ingredients from all over the
> world, and visit (a few) restaurants with interesting and different
> food. I *don't* like being told everything I taste or cook is
> distinctly inferior to the Real Thing. Or that I can't say I like Thai
> food, only a watered-down, inferior, Thai-American imitation.


Well, I'm not telling you everything you taste or cook is inferior. And
Thai restaurants in the US are in general pretty good. Again, I don't think
anyone here is telling you you don't know about authentic cuisines.


> What, in fact, *is* "watered down"? I very much doubt *all* Thai food
> is full of 'hot' ('though I love what is).


See above. It differs for different cuisines. I think Thai restaurants
have declined in quality the last 10 years, but that's another long
thread...


Is it "watered down" that
> many Americans will dribble soy sauce over their plate in a Chinese
> restaurant?


No, certainly not. That is simply grotesque. Yuck!!


I confess (again) that I ask for mushrooms (canned) and
> other fungus be omitted from my hot&sour soup at #1 Kitchen. To me,
> the flavor (of the fungus) is less important than the texture (similar
> to squid/octopus -- like rubber bands that expand upon chewing). I
> *have* had tender squid, but not often. And it's not something I seek
> out.


You are from the Bay Area, but are squeamish about squid, chicken feet, and
pig hocks? What happened?


> >> >I hope on going to Oaxaca again next summer. I met an American there
> >once
> >> >who drove down--it can be done. See ya there!
> >>
> >> Enjoy.
> >
> >You're not coming with me?! That was an invitation!
>
> Thanks. I'd love to. Find me a job first.


Fine.... You use words like "in situ" and don't have a job?

Hey, it could be like a date! You meet me here near the border, and we
drive down together. Oaxaca is a beautiful, colonial town that holds on to
lots of old traditions, especially when it comes to cooking. We'd both be
taking Spanish classes during the day, and in the eveninings we'd meet on
the classic zócalo for dinner and cervezas. And on weekends, we could head
down to the coast, to the beautiful beaches of Puerto Escondido or Puerto
Angel, where they have awesome beach-side food service, with the best
shirmps and octopus you've ever eaten. The Pulpo al Mojo de Ajo [octopus
with garlic] is a huge plate of plump, tender chunks of octopus sauteed with
garlic -- the freshest, juiciest pieces of octopus you've ever had. And
there is the beautiful beach and the warm sun; and at night, we could dance
salsa 'til the wee hours of the morning...

Unless you are a guy.


You gonna post in
> alt.food.mexican?


I've posted there and I do read it from time to time. But the only report I
have was on this newsgroup. I guess it is because I don't cook Mexican at
home.

Peter

On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 09:30:01 -0000, "ahem" >
wrote:

>Come on frogleg - let's swap recipes - this SHOULD be fun and educational!
>Sometimes just fun, sometimes just educational, sometimes neither!!! ;-))

To get this out of non-interested faces, my e-mail is
frogleg-at-hotmail dot com

Don't know if I can supply interesting recipes -- I'm a foodfan but a
rotten cook. Most of my successes have been shear chance and many
times unrepeatable (I mean that I can't replicate them, not that
they're too awful to pronounce).

On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 12:25:17 GMT, "Peter Dy" >
wrote:

>
>"Frogleg" > wrote

>> On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 11:43:45 GMT, "Peter Dy" >
>> wrote:
>[...]
>> >> My
>> >> beef (!) is that I get the impression, rightly or wrongly, that I
>> >> *can't* enjoy/like/appreciate what I experience because it's not the
>> >> Real Thing.
>> >
>> >I don't care if you like Chinese dishes with
>> >brocolli or Mexican tacos with shredded cheddar cheese on top. I don't like
>things
>> >dumbed down to appeal to my "American tastes."
>>
>> Again, define "dumbed down" and "American tastes."
>
>I know lots of people and have good friends who aren't interested in food at
>all. There is nothing unusual in that. Are you interested in food or what?

Yep. Grew up mostly whitebread and was slowly educated. Continuing, I
hope.

>Do you really not know what "dumbed down" might be? Dumbed down is: "Gee,
>even though there are Chinese vegetables pouring out into the streets in the
>grocery stores 3 blocks away, and even though the restaurant next door
>serves Chinese vegetables, Americans don't like them. So let's put
>vegetables they are familiar with on the menu instead. And lets mix them up
>with the meat, so it makes them feel like the dish is healthy. And let's
>use
>basically the same sauce for every dish, since they don't know what
>"fish-flavored" dishes are supposed to taste like anyway. And let's stick
>to beef, chicken, and shrimp. And let's make it all stir-fry dishes."

Wow! Let me help you deal with your anger. :-) Well, baby corn sure
can't be "authentic" Chinese. I think you're over-generalizing (as in
fact, I am also very occasionally guilty of). I know *heaps* of
non-foodie types. Put a single piece of Anaheim chile in a bowl of
melted Velveeta, and they protest they can't stand "hot" foods. There
are also the "why should I pay $X for a steak when I can get one at
Safeway for $Y?" types. But they're not the whole country. I really
haven't had a great deal of exposure to World Cuisine. I feel my
interest is legitimate because I've practically never experienced a
meal of 'new' foods I didn't take to. Not every dish, to be sure.

I resent "dumbed down" and "American tastes." One sauce? I dunno. One
food view attributed to 290 people? I don't think so. Else we wouldn't
have any restaurants but IHOP and Pizza Hut. Which we most certainly
do.

>I hate to sound
>> like a one-trick pony, but the example of chop suey keeps coming to
>> mind.
>
>Yeah, according to Anderson, there supposedly is a "chop suey" dish in a
>part of Canton. But that has to do with Gold Rush era food. I was talking
>about restaurants in from the 50's-80's, when there were many more Chinese
>in the US -- I don't think they knew chop suey except as an American-Chinese
>dish. Check out Ken Hom's "Easy Family Recipes from a Chinese-American
>Childhood," for interesting comments on restaurants in those days. (He grew
>up in Chicago's Chinatown.)

Just make me envious. :-) Aside from time in the Bay area, where I
was trying to overcome my fear of mushrooms (I did), I've never been
close to a Chinatown.
>
>> I admit a reluctance to even *try* what I think of as "icky stuff."
>> This includes animal feet of any description (unless crab claws count
>> as feet). I don't like animal fat (except crisp bacon -- go figure). I
>> like 'smooth' things with no surprises. No KFC for me. So are my
>> tastes "American" or personally idiosyncratic?
>
>
>Both. I expect the meat in my tacos to have some good chunks of fat in
>them. So I think your tastes are "American" in that instance. But if you
>don't like feet or grasshoppers, your loss; doesn't mean you aren't
>"authentic"

I am *very* authentic. I use the term because it's what so many others
(perhaps not here, but elsewhere) use to refer to the only way food
can be appreciated. I have a lot of trouble with gray area. I know
Elvis on black velvet is inferior to Van Gogh, but I'm not quite sure
why. Originality? Time? What argument can I use to tell people who
enjoy tuna hotdish that their experience is, um, limited? You can lead
a non-foodie to gorganzola, but you can't make them eat it without
making a face.
>
>
>[...]
>> I guess what I resent is having a huge population with a vast variety
>> of food preferences lumped into a know-nothing group with no taste
>> whatsoever. Sure, there's the mac&cheese, "gimme a nice steak and
>> potato" crowd. (I don't mind a nice steak and potato myself), but is
>> the whole country assumed to have the same taste?
>
>
>Well, again, I don't think I was complaining about that -- I didn't start
>the topic. Like I said, some people just aren't food nerds, or at least
>food nerds when it comes to Asian food or other ethnic foods. I like
>reading baseball newsgroup messages by guys who know a lot about stats.
>Some people resent it, saying they are ruining the fun or whatever. I just
>view it as their hobby, I make note of what they say, but I enjoy baseball
>games in my own way. I'm interested in baseball stats, but not enough to
>make it my hobby.

Check one of the coffee groups for nuance. Sheesh!
>
>
>> What's so awful about broccoli in "Chinese" food? Yes, it's of
>> European origin, and thus not "authentic." What about chiles? Or
>> tomatoes?
>
>
>If I go to a Chinese restaurant, I want to eat Chinese vegetables. That is
>what I eat at home; they are not hard to get. Safeway and other grocery
>stores in my town now carry Chinese eggplants, yardlong beans, bitter melon,
>etc. So if I see broccoli on the menu, the rest of the food is almost
>always dumbed down (see above for examples). That is different from saying
>the Chinese cuisine won't allow broccoli.

So whadaya do with bitter melon? I grew it, and it's a nifty-looking
veg, but I never got any recipes that seemed worth the bother. Bok
choi, OTOH, is divine. Ever have any winged beans? Beautiful growing
and extremely architectural for cooking.

>> agree with you entirely. Bread here (SE corner of Virginia) is
>> universally dismal. I made a special trip to a bakery 'famous' for its
>> "French" bread. Crispy crust (for half a day) and cotton interior.
>> Perfectly ghastly.
>
>OK! And that's not to say that SE Virginia doesn't have its own special,
>tasty dishes. They just don't have good bread.

Biscuits. Ham. Ham biscuits.
>
>> I would *love* to experience many dishes in their original locations.
>> I enjoy reading about others' dining in France or Vietnam or Jakarta.
>> I'm also tickled that I can buy (some) ingredients from all over the
>> world, and visit (a few) restaurants with interesting and different
>> food. I *don't* like being told everything I taste or cook is
>> distinctly inferior to the Real Thing. Or that I can't say I like Thai
>> food, only a watered-down, inferior, Thai-American imitation.
>
>
>Well, I'm not telling you everything you taste or cook is inferior. And
>Thai restaurants in the US are in general pretty good. Again, I don't think
>anyone here is telling you you don't know about authentic cuisines.

Backpedal. I don't. But I think we get a pretty fair sampling of a lot
of different food things. Friend in Detroit talks about going to a
Polish deli. I read about Italian and Mexican markets. There's a fish
market down the street where I see still-flapping critters delivered
(although the whiting is frozen). The Korean/Thai store is authentic
enough to be maddening (no prices marked, but cheapish shallots and
lemon grass I can grow. And kim chee. I *do* like kim chee.)
>

>Is it "watered down" that
>> many Americans will dribble soy sauce over their plate in a Chinese
>> restaurant?
>
>No, certainly not. That is simply grotesque. Yuck!!

OTOH, simply coming 'round to soy sauce may be a leap. But I gotta say
the "condiments" in cheap Chinese restaurants are beyond description.

Someone told me that mustard (dry powder with water) would taste
hotter with a little sugar added. Opinion?
>
>I confess (again) that I ask for mushrooms (canned) and
>> other fungus be omitted from my hot&sour soup at #1 Kitchen. To me,
>> the flavor (of the fungus) is less important than the texture (similar
>> to squid/octopus -- like rubber bands that expand upon chewing).
>
>You are from the Bay Area, but are squeamish about squid, chicken feet, and
>pig hocks? What happened?

Wasn't a foodie then. How often do *you* cook/eat pigs' feet? Or ears.
Geez, assisted hamburger begins to sound like pate en croute in
comparison.
>
>> >> >I hope on going to Oaxaca again next summer. I met an American there
>> >once
>> >> >who drove down--it can be done. See ya there!

>> Thanks. I'd love to. Find me a job first.

>You use words like "in situ" and don't have a job?

Go figure. Watch me recductio ad absurdum.

"Frogleg" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 12:25:17 GMT, "Peter Dy" >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Frogleg" > wrote
>
> >> On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 11:43:45 GMT, "Peter Dy" >
> >> wrote:
[...]
> >Do you really not know what "dumbed down" might be? Dumbed down is:
"Gee,
> >even though there are Chinese vegetables pouring out into the streets in
the
> >grocery stores 3 blocks away, and even though the restaurant next door
> >serves Chinese vegetables, Americans don't like them. So let's put
> >vegetables they are familiar with on the menu instead. And lets mix them
up
> >with the meat, so it makes them feel like the dish is healthy. And let's
> >use
> >basically the same sauce for every dish, since they don't know what
> >"fish-flavored" dishes are supposed to taste like anyway. And let's
stick
> >to beef, chicken, and shrimp. And let's make it all stir-fry dishes."
>
> Wow! Let me help you deal with your anger. :-) Well, baby corn sure
> can't be "authentic" Chinese. I think you're over-generalizing (as in
> fact, I am also very occasionally guilty of). I know *heaps* of
> non-foodie types. Put a single piece of Anaheim chile in a bowl of
> melted Velveeta, and they protest they can't stand "hot" foods. There
> are also the "why should I pay $X for a steak when I can get one at
> Safeway for $Y?" types. But they're not the whole country.


Are you a troll? Look, I've already said there are excellent Chinese
restaurants out there, including in the very state you live in. There are
also crappy, dumbed down restaurants out there. That means, obviously, that
there are *Americans* who frequent both types of places. So what am I
generalizing about? I don't get it.


[...]
> I resent "dumbed down" and "American tastes." One sauce? I dunno.


Restaurant owners/worker have told me, and I've read it, that they want to
serve vegetables Americans are used to. I'm sure if you asked diners in
such restaurants, they would say the same: I prefer American vegetables.
So, if you don't want to call that "Americanized", what, pray tell, do you
suggest we call it?

If I know what Fish-Flavored Pork is supposed to be and what it's supposed
to taste like, and a restaurant serves me a "Fish-Flavored Pork" dish that
bears little resemblance to the real thing, and instead seems to have the
same sauce that they used for the fried noodle dish (which they should have
used for that dish either), then I say that they have "dumbed it down" for
the diners. What do you want to call it?


[...]
> >> I admit a reluctance to even *try* what I think of as "icky stuff."
> >> This includes animal feet of any description (unless crab claws count
> >> as feet). I don't like animal fat (except crisp bacon -- go figure). I
> >> like 'smooth' things with no surprises. No KFC for me. So are my
> >> tastes "American" or personally idiosyncratic?
> >
> >
> >Both. I expect the meat in my tacos to have some good chunks of fat in
> >them. So I think your tastes are "American" in that instance. But if
you
> >don't like feet or grasshoppers, your loss; doesn't mean you aren't
> >"authentic"
>
> I am *very* authentic. I use the term because it's what so many others
> (perhaps not here, but elsewhere) use to refer to the only way food
> can be appreciated.


I disagree. I don't think people use the term the way you do, in most
instances. Many times, I've been to great, authentic dim sum places with
diverse groups of people, including non-foodie, "whitebreads", to use your
term. They ipso facto like and eat authentic food, even if they didn't care
if it was "authentic" or not. Did they eat the chicken feet? No. Did they
eat the tripe? No. But they liked the radish cakes, the shao mai, the
xiaolongbaozi, the har gow, and the list goes on. In other words, authentic
dim sum is *not* eating chicken feet. You should try them though, as they
are super tasty, especially if they are freshly made and piping hot.

My ex-girlfriends sister (Taiwanese) once served us rice and stir-fried
chicken hearts for dinner. I dislike innards, so I had a hard time eating
just chicken hearts. Her sister, obviously a little upset, especially since
she had cooked it, after all, said I was too American. She was probably
right, but I think it was more that she was upset about me not eating than
any strongly-held belief that I was inauthentic. I regret that incident;
that was un-Buddhist of me, since I should eat whatever is placed before
me...


[...]
> >> I guess what I resent is having a huge population with a vast variety
> >> of food preferences lumped into a know-nothing group with no taste
> >> whatsoever. Sure, there's the mac&cheese, "gimme a nice steak and
> >> potato" crowd. (I don't mind a nice steak and potato myself), but is
> >> the whole country assumed to have the same taste?
> >
> >
> >Well, again, I don't think I was complaining about that -- I didn't start
> >the topic. Like I said, some people just aren't food nerds, or at least
> >food nerds when it comes to Asian food or other ethnic foods. I like
> >reading baseball newsgroup messages by guys who know a lot about stats.
> >Some people resent it, saying they are ruining the fun or whatever. I
just
> >view it as their hobby, I make note of what they say, but I enjoy
baseball
> >games in my own way. I'm interested in baseball stats, but not enough to
> >make it my hobby.
>
> Check one of the coffee groups for nuance. Sheesh!


Hehe, yes, good example. I think they are very knowledgable, but often
*way* off. I prefer European style coffee (like in Paris or Italy). Some
of the coffee they think is the best, tastes like crap! I took an Italian
girl to this cafe in Seattle that roasts their own beans etc, and she spit
the espresso back into the cup, she found it so vile.


> >> What's so awful about broccoli in "Chinese" food? Yes, it's of
> >> European origin, and thus not "authentic." What about chiles? Or
> >> tomatoes?
> >
> >
> >If I go to a Chinese restaurant, I want to eat Chinese vegetables. That
is
> >what I eat at home; they are not hard to get. Safeway and other grocery
> >stores in my town now carry Chinese eggplants, yardlong beans, bitter
melon,
> >etc. So if I see broccoli on the menu, the rest of the food is almost
> >always dumbed down (see above for examples). That is different from
saying
> >the Chinese cuisine won't allow broccoli.
>
> So whadaya do with bitter melon? I grew it, and it's a nifty-looking
> veg, but I never got any recipes that seemed worth the bother.


Stir-fried with chicken and black beans is good. It's not a hard recipe at
all. I make a Thai curry with them and sliced pork, not hard either. Did
you just let them rot, or what? Lol.


Bok
> choi, OTOH, is divine. Ever have any winged beans? Beautiful growing
> and extremely architectural for cooking.


I *love* winged beans! You let them rot too?!?! They are very hard to find
in stores.


> >> agree with you entirely. Bread here (SE corner of Virginia) is
> >> universally dismal. I made a special trip to a bakery 'famous' for its
> >> "French" bread. Crispy crust (for half a day) and cotton interior.
> >> Perfectly ghastly.
> >
> >OK! And that's not to say that SE Virginia doesn't have its own special,
> >tasty dishes. They just don't have good bread.
>
> Biscuits. Ham. Ham biscuits.


Hehe. What about grits?


> >> I would *love* to experience many dishes in their original locations.
> >> I enjoy reading about others' dining in France or Vietnam or Jakarta.
> >> I'm also tickled that I can buy (some) ingredients from all over the
> >> world, and visit (a few) restaurants with interesting and different
> >> food. I *don't* like being told everything I taste or cook is
> >> distinctly inferior to the Real Thing. Or that I can't say I like Thai
> >> food, only a watered-down, inferior, Thai-American imitation.
> >
> >
> >Well, I'm not telling you everything you taste or cook is inferior. And
> >Thai restaurants in the US are in general pretty good. Again, I don't
think
> >anyone here is telling you you don't know about authentic cuisines.
>
> Backpedal. I don't. But I think we get a pretty fair sampling of a lot
> of different food things. Friend in Detroit talks about going to a
> Polish deli. I read about Italian and Mexican markets. There's a fish
> market down the street where I see still-flapping critters delivered
> (although the whiting is frozen). The Korean/Thai store is authentic
> enough to be maddening (no prices marked, but cheapish shallots and
> lemon grass I can grow. And kim chee. I *do* like kim chee.)


Well, stay around on this group. Lots of great info. People are real nice
around here too.


> Someone told me that mustard (dry powder with water) would taste
> hotter with a little sugar added. Opinion?


Don't know. Never made it. I'm sure someone here has an opinion, but
starting a new thread for that topic would get it more attention.

Peter

[...]

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 05:45:16 GMT, "Peter Dy" >
wrote:

>"Frogleg" > wrote

etc., etc.

This is getting out of hand. We're going to have a novel posted soon.

>> I resent "dumbed down" and "American tastes." One sauce? I dunno.
>
>Restaurant owners/worker have told me, and I've read it, that they want to
>serve vegetables Americans are used to. I'm sure if you asked diners in
>such restaurants, they would say the same: I prefer American vegetables.
>So, if you don't want to call that "Americanized", what, pray tell, do you
>suggest we call it?

Is the problem American tastes, restauranteurs' expectations, or
availability of ingredients? You imply the second, and assume the
first. I'm trying to think of any time I've been served strange veg
that were distinctly off-putting. Nope. Can't think of any (although
my experience is limited). Can't say I'm crazy about 'baby corn.'
>
>If I know what Fish-Flavored Pork is supposed to be and what it's supposed
>to taste like, and a restaurant serves me a "Fish-Flavored Pork" dish that
>bears little resemblance to the real thing, and instead seems to have the
>same sauce that they used for the fried noodle dish (which they should have
>used for that dish either), then I say that they have "dumbed it down" for
>the diners. What do you want to call it?

Fish-Flavored Pork? *That* sounds interesting. Again, you mention "the
restaurant served me." Maybe there *are* too many bad restaurants in
the US. I expect there are equally bad ones in Madrid and Bangalore,
but wouldn't Chinese food be equally "dumbed down" for the Spanish or
Indians?

My complaint (one of them) is that adaptations to local tastes and
ingredients is (sometimes) judged artful adaptation in the rest of the
world, but "dumbing down" when it comes to the US. With this
discussion, I *do* think I'm missing something by not being able to
taste particularly actractive cuisines on their home ground. But I
refuse to believe that my access to "Mexican" and "Thai" and
"Pakistani" food is beneath contempt, nor my efforts to explore with
the help of cookbooks and delightful web sites, in my own kitchen.
Geez -- I searched for *years* to find palm sugar for my Indonesian
beef stew recipe. Got it, too. Not that I think it makes a great deal
of difference. I don't even think the variations of tamarind I've
tried (block, paste in a nearly impenetrable jar, and laboriously
gleaned from seedpods) is critical. The special flavor, IMHO, is the
combination of 'sweet' spices in a meat dish.

I resent being told (implied) that I'm "dumb" for liking green papaya
salad, because it isn't the *right* green papaya salad. Or that I can
never make *proper* dosa outside the Indian subcontinent. Nor can I
say I like Indian or Thai or Chinese cooking because I've never
experienced the real thing. And I don't/can't get the right soy or
fish sauce. OK. I'll keep seeking recipes and ingredients and growing
things and making curry with canned cocount milk and lurk for
possiblities that please me and won't earn the scorn of afa'rs.