At 09:23 AM 12/29/2004, Will wrote:
>If the culture environment is dryer, as in dough-like, you can avoid
>most, if not all, of the opportunistic growth from undesireable
>bacteria.

Absolutely untrue IMO - yeasts and LB's need moisture and if it's just
moisture, many other organisms can grow in moist flour - anaerobic, molds,
fungi, bacteria, bacilli - you have it.

I have a research article where the interaction of sourdough specific
organisms with flour specific organisms is being looked into. It's from
1988 and may not be fully up to date any more but for sure holds still some
water. They looked at 13 flour specific critters and 10 LB's. Best in
retarding growth of bacteria and bacilli was LB leichmannii and LB SF was
second worst - apparently doesn't need it any more when making home in
sourdoughs.

Interesting, the organism from that bunch which is most tolerant against
lactic and acetic acid is a streptococcus faecalis. You can guess by the
name where it is coming from. Not really plant specific I would say but
it's regular home may not be abundant with water either - most of the time.

Escherichia coli is in that collection as well.

(googled: Escherichia coli O157:H7 is an emerging cause of foodborne
illness. An estimated 73,000 cases of infection and 61 deaths occur in the
United States each year.... E. coli O157:H7 is one of hundreds of strains
of the bacterium Escherichia coli. Although most strains are harmless and
live in the intestines of healthy humans and animals, this strain produces
a powerful toxin and can cause severe illness.) I think that feedlot cows
can have it and sourdough kills it if it's in the flour.

The main factor of inhibition they figured in that research project is the
acidity and mature sourdough does not get affected by the new critters in
the flour because of it.

>The appropriate microbial culture comes with fresh grain.

Doesn't necessarily need to be fresh - the organisms seem to hang around.

>It
>is the basis of a symbiotic ecology which makes makes sprouting
>efficient. Your gut carries bacterial for the same purpose: to make
>energy conversion efficient. Too much water is not a natural state for
>sourdough culture(s).

Says who? What would be a "natural state" of sourdough? Is there sourdough
occurring in nature without human interference? Maybe in a dove crop - who
knows? Doesn't really matter here.

And what's "too much water"? Continuous SD starter productions or
industrial SD dough production is run with high hydrations so it can be
pumped. This would not work if the LB's and their mates were water shy.
They work anaerobic and don't care how wet it is as long as there is food
around and the temperature is right AFAIKS.

> Samartha has mentioned on several occassions that
>stirring to oxygenate is important.

Maybe under some circumstances but surely not necessary. They get an extra
kick but can do very well without it. Unless you are pursuing a particular
goal, I would not call it "important" - helpful under circumstances, maybe.

>Why might this be? Too much water?
>All of the comments about hooch indicate bad culture practices, wastes
>are inbalancing the culture process.

Who makes a problem about hooch - it happens, so what. What's bad about it?
In earlier days it was valued in situations.

I see hooch as a protection layer. If the culture dries out, molds grow,
hooch prevents this. That's definitely an issue with drier cultures stores
over longer periods in a fridge. I'd say wetter is better.

And who knows what taste effects a bread can get when it's made with a
starter sitting in the fridge for two month under 1/2" of hooch.

I think you are really depriving you of great adventures if you exclude
hooch from your sourdough live.

> There is nothing in the
>grain-to-mature-plant cycle that works under water. Grain rots in a
>flooded field.

Doesn't this make you wonder why it doesn't rot, i. e. smell rotten in your
moist starter? And rice isn't a grain because it grows in water - right?


>So does flour under water.

I think that it would get eaten when dropped into the water - fish or
smaller living things may really enjoy it.

Happy bubbles!

Samartha


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