Kenneth wrote:
> On 29 Dec 2004 08:23:51 -0800, "Will"
> > wrote:
>
> >Kenneth wrote:
> >> On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 21:04:06 -0700, Samartha
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> >Kenneth: flour sterilized? - Hardly because it was active and
> >smelled sour.
> >>
> >> Hi Samartha,
> >>
> >> Perhaps you are right, but IIRC it was active only at the
> >> very start. That pointed me in the direction of
> >> contamination rather than the growth of critters in the
> >> flour.
> >>
> >> All the best,
> >>
> >> --
> >> Kenneth
> >>
> >> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
> >
> >If the culture environment is dryer, as in dough-like, you can avoid
> >most, if not all, of the opportunistic growth from undesireable
> >bacteria. The appropriate microbial culture comes with fresh grain.
It
> >is the basis of a symbiotic ecology which makes makes sprouting
> >efficient. Your gut carries bacterial for the same purpose: to make
> >energy conversion efficient. Too much water is not a natural state
for
> >sourdough culture(s). Samartha has mentioned on several occassions
that
> >stirring to oxygenate is important. Why might this be? Too much
water?
> >All of the comments about hooch indicate bad culture practices,
wastes
> >are inbalancing the culture process. There is nothing in the
> >grain-to-mature-plant cycle that works under water. Grain rots in a
> >flooded field.
> >
> >So does flour under water.
> >
> >Will
>
> Hi Will,
>
> I don't dispute your suggestion, but the logic seems a bit
> tortured...

Ok, I'll try a Houdini-like escape via in-line responses...
>
> First, though the yeasts do, indeed, come "with fresh grain"
> it is my understanding that the lactobacilli do not. It is
> my understanding that they seem to come from the baker.
>
------
Not according to the paper Roy Basin linked in this forum about 5
months ago. Those scientists tested several geographically dispersed
grain supplies and spectographically typed "both sides" of a number of
SD cultures.
------

> Also, when you say of the "culture" that "It is the basis of
> a symbiotic ecology which makes sprouting efficient." I
> don't get the connection between sprouting, and generating a
> sourdough culture (even leaving aside the issue of the
> absence of LB on the grain.)

-----
Consider the well known use of malted barley. It is added to all
quality bread flours. The grain is partially sprouted to promote the
presence of an important sugar complex and diastace, an enzyme that
increases fermentation efficiency. There is a lot of documented science
in this area.
------

>
> Similarly when you say "There is nothing in the
> grain-to-mature-plant cycle that works under water." That
> would certainly seem to be true, but how might that fact be
> connected to the growth of a viable culture for baking?

-----
The growth question you pose is key. The SD culture we want to grow
does not feed on water AND it needs enzymes provided by the grain, on
the grain, to work. Diluting and dispersing isn't logical.
-----

>
> It seems rather like suggesting that we cannot make rubber
> from latex because there is nothing in the cycle of the life
> of the Hevea tree that involves the shedding of the sap...

----
I have to admit I like your analogy. Would you add water to the latex
too?.
----

>
> And finally, in response to Samartha's suggesting stirring,
> you ask "Why might this be? Too much water?" but, again, I
> don't get the connection. Why would stirring be related to
> the amount of water?

----
If the key components are diluted and spatially separated from one
another and if oxygen is a player which it is in the Krebs cycle... one
might stir periodically to combine them.
----

>
> I certainly agree with your comment that "the comments about
> hooch indicate bad culture practices" but don't see any
> (direct) connection to the issue of the amount of water in
> the starter.
>

----
What is hooch but too much water and trapped respiration waste after
everything settles?
Without the water layer, the starter would outgas cleanly.

My argument isn't that water is bad. My argument is that too much water
is fundamentally inefficient. When I start a culture with a moistened
ball of dough, I do not have to worry about competing "bad" organisms
fooling me for a couple of days. And I don't deal with hooch or watch
the bubbles moving through it.

The smell of a ripened piece of dough has very little in common with
the smell of submerged starter.
That should tell us something.
-----

Will