http://www.rense.com/general62/prion.htm

--
SN
http://www.scentednectar.com/veg/
A huge directory listing over 700 veg recipe sites.
Has a fun 'Jump to a Random Link' button.
> wrote in message
ups.com...
> http://www.rense.com/general62/prion.htm

Also, there's an article in New Scientist about the
same thing. Here it is:
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6907

Inflammation lets prions invade "safe" tissue
19:00 20 January 2005
NewScientist.com news service
Emily Singer

Inflammation can cause the deformed proteins
that cause prion diseases, such as BSE, to
invade organs that normally resist infection.
If the new research in mice holds true for cattle,
it could mean that some organs previously
thought to be safe to eat are not - with significant
implications for BSE testing programmes.

Previous screening tests have shown the prions
that cause BSE are found only in specific organs,
such as the brain and intestines. "So the
assumption has been that other parts are safe to
eat," says Adriano Aguzzi, at the University
Hospital of Zurich, Switzerland, who led the new
research.

"People in countries with BSE still eat steak
because the authorities say if you stay away
from the brain and lymphoid tissue, you should
be safe," he told New Scientist. However, the
experiments to find out where BSE prions lurk
in cattle incubating the disease have been
done in otherwise healthy animals, he says:
"If you have a sick cow, these rules may no
longer apply."

The US and UK agencies responsible for BSE
testing say the findings do not warrant any
immediate changes to existing regulations,
but say they plan to review the new research in
depth.

Infectivity can vary between species, says
Danny Matthews, at the UK Department for
Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, so
the results need to be replicated in cattle.
The officials also claim that inflamed tissue
can be identified and removed from
carcasses along with specified risk organs.

Prion bioreactor
However, if the findings of Aguzzi's team
translate to cattle, changes may be needed.
Current European surveillance programs
test the central nervous system of
slaughtered cattle for signs of infection,
on the assumption that even animals
incubating the disease poses no risk to
consumers until prions show up in the brain.

But if inflamed organs are infected with
prions earlier than brain tissue - as
preliminary results from Aguzzi's lab
suggest - animals whose brains test
negative for BSE could still be carrying
dangerous levels of prions in other organs,
and those could end up in food.

In their new study, the researchers tested
mice with five different inflammatory
diseases of the kidney, pancreas and
liver. They found that in all cases, chronic
inflammation caused a build up of prion
proteins in organs that are normally
prion-free.

"The organ transforms itself into a bioreactor
for prions," says Aguzzi. For example,
diabetic mice injected with prions end up
with a pancreas full of the misfolded protein,
while the organ is unaffected in healthy mice.

Immune reaction
While inflammation does affect where prions
accumulate, it does not make animals more
susceptible to brain infection or affect how
quickly the disease makes the animals sick.
The team now plans to carry out similar
experiments with farm animals.

The scientists are not sure why inflamed
organs become more vulnerable to prions,
but suspect it may be connected to the
immune reaction. When an organ is inflamed,
the immune system produces blood cells
called lymphocytes to help battle the disease.
These cells produce a substance called
lymphotoxin, which Aguzzi says may trigger
a reaction that turns a normal cell into one
capable of replicating prions. His lab has
found that mice lacking the lymphotoxin
receptor lack prion disease in inflamed
organs.

Journal reference: Science (DOI: 10.1126/science.1106460)

"Oz" > wrote in message
<snip>
> And you stupid americans get in a fluster because you find a couple of
> pre-clinical bse cases? Really, you are so mindless.

It doesn't matter what the odds are if you're the one unlucky enough to get
it.

-Rubystars

Rubystars wrote:
> "Oz" > wrote in message
> <snip>
>
>>And you stupid americans get in a fluster because you find a couple of
>>pre-clinical bse cases? Really, you are so mindless.
>
Ruby:

>
> It doesn't matter what the odds are if you're the one unlucky enough to get
> it.
>
> -Rubystars

But it's about risk assessment and putting research dollars where they
will do the most good. Traffic accidents kill about 100 Merkins a day.
How
many have died because of "mad cow"?
Did you ever hear this "Whatever doesn't kill me just delays the
inevitable"? Life is a terminal condition.


Dean



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Dean Hoffman wrote:
> Rubystars wrote:
> > "Oz" > wrote in message
> > <snip>
> >
> >>And you stupid americans get in a fluster because you find a couple
of
> >>pre-clinical bse cases? Really, you are so mindless.
> >
> Ruby:
>
> >
> > It doesn't matter what the odds are if you're the one unlucky
enough to get
> > it.
> >
> > -Rubystars
>
> But it's about risk assessment and putting research dollars
where they
> will do the most good. Traffic accidents kill about 100 Merkins a
day.
> How
> many have died because of "mad cow"?
> Did you ever hear this "Whatever doesn't kill me just delays the
> inevitable"? Life is a terminal condition.

Dean, the original poster, "Skunky," has never had a rational thought
in her life. She posted this sheerly as a hand-wringing,
fear-mongering exercise - "Oooh, look, see eating meat is BBAAD FOR
YEEWWW!"

That's the level of discourse she's capable of. Nothing more.


>
>
> Dean
>
>
>
> ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
News==----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
>100,000 Newsgroups
> ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

Rubystars > writes
>
>"Oz" > wrote in message
><snip>
>> And you stupid americans get in a fluster because you find a couple of
>> pre-clinical bse cases? Really, you are so mindless.
>
>It doesn't matter what the odds are if you're the one unlucky enough to get
>it.

Then worry about the other 540,000 deaths and not the 20 (UK),
or 2,500,000 vs zero if US.

In short, stop being so amazingly mindless.

--
Oz

> Dean, the original poster, "Skunky," has never had a rational thought
> in her life. She posted this sheerly as a hand-wringing,
> fear-mongering exercise - "Oooh, look, see eating meat is BBAAD FOR
> YEEWWW!"
>
> That's the level of discourse she's capable of. Nothing more.

Keep eating that meat, Abby. Especially any
tissue with nervous system cells. We'll use you
as a willing tester.


--
SN
http://www.scentednectar.com/veg/
A huge directory listing over 700 veg recipe sites.
Has a fun 'Jump to a Random Link' button.

"Scented Nectar" > wrote in message
...
> > Dean, the original poster, "Skunky," has never had a rational thought
> > in her life. She posted this sheerly as a hand-wringing,
> > fear-mongering exercise - "Oooh, look, see eating meat is BBAAD FOR
> > YEEWWW!"
> >
> > That's the level of discourse she's capable of. Nothing more.
>
> Keep eating that meat, Abby. Especially any
> tissue with nervous system cells. We'll use you
> as a willing tester.

that is what people in the UK have been doing. You are five times more
likely to die from falling out of bed than you are from nvCJD. Be as
hysterical as you want, the tests have been run, the odds are known,
If you worry about risk then don't, whatever you do, travel by road, many
times more dangerous than any CJD varient

Jim Webster

"Jim Webster" > wrote in message ...
>
> "Scented Nectar" > wrote in message
> ...
<..>
> > Keep eating that meat, Abby. Especially any
> > tissue with nervous system cells. We'll use you
> > as a willing tester.

Tissue without nerves, lymph and blood..

> that is what people in the UK have been doing. You are five times more
> likely to die from falling out of bed than you are from nvCJD. Be as
> hysterical as you want, the tests have been run, the odds are known,
> If you worry about risk then don't, whatever you do, travel by road, many
> times more dangerous than any CJD varient
>
> Jim Webster

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0107-07.htm

"pearl" > wrote in message
...
> "Jim Webster" > wrote in message
...
> >
> > "Scented Nectar" > wrote in message
> > ...
> <..>
> > > Keep eating that meat, Abby. Especially any
> > > tissue with nervous system cells. We'll use you
> > > as a willing tester.
>
> Tissue without nerves, lymph and blood..
>

except that we have been eating many millions of sheep, with nothing removed
for the same period. And there are still only 20 a year, as opposed to 100 a
year falling out of bed. So I'm afraid you will have to look for something
else to get hysterical about. Howabout soya or nuts?

Jim Webster

Jim Webster > writes
>except that we have been eating many millions of sheep, with nothing removed
>for the same period. And there are still only 20 a year, as opposed to 100 a
>year falling out of bed. So I'm afraid you will have to look for something
>else to get hysterical about. Howabout soya or nuts?

good point: on the safty of soya:

Fit for Human Consumption? The Chinese did not eat the soybean as they
did other pulses (legumes) such as the lentil, because the soybean
contains large quantities of a number of harmful a substances. First
among them are potent enzyme inhibitors which block the action of
trypsin and other enzymes needed for protein digestion.


These "antinutrients" are not completely deactivated during ordinary
cooking and can produce serious gastric distress, reduced protein
digestion and chronic deficiencies in amino acid uptake. In test
animals, diets high in trypsin inhibitors cause enlargement and
pathological conditions of the pancreas, including cancer. The soybean
also contains hemagglutinin, a clot promoting substance that causes
red blood cells to clump together. Trypsin inhibitors and
hemagglutinin have been rightly labeled growth depressant substances.
Fortunately they are deactivated during the process of fermentation.
However, in precipitated products, enzyme inhibitors concentrate in
the soaking liquid rather than in the curd. Thus in tofu and bean
curd, these enzyme inhibitors are reduced in quantity, but not
completely eliminated.


Soybeans are also high in phytic acid or phytates. This is an organic
acid, present in the bran or hulls of all seeds, which blocks the
uptake of essential minerals-calcium, magnesium, iron and especially
zinc-in the intestinal tract. Although not a household word, phytates
have been extensively studied. Scientists are in general agreement
that grain and legume based diets high in phytates contribute to
widespread mineral deficiencies in third world countries.


Analysis shows that calcium, magnesium, iron and zinc are present in
the plant foods eaten in these areas, but the high phytate content of
soy and rice based diets prevents their absorption. The soybean has a
higher phytate content than any other grain or legume that has been
studied. Furthermore, it seems to be highly resistant to many phytate
reducing techniques such as long, slow cooking. Only a long period of
fermentation will significantly reduce the phytate content of
soybeans. Thus fermented products such as tempeh and miso provide
nourishment that is easily assimilated, but the nutritional value of
tofu and bean curd, both high in phytates, is questionable.


When precipitated soy products are consumed with meat, the mineral
blocking effects of the phytates are reduced. The Japanese
traditionally eat tofu as part of a mineral-rich fish broth.
Vegetarians who consume tofu and bean curd as a substitute for meat
and dairy products risk severe mineral deficiencies. The results of
calcium, magnesium and iron deficiency are well known, those of zinc
are less so. Zinc is called the intelligence mineral because it is
needed for optimal development and functioning of the brain and
nervous system. It plays a role in protein synthesis and collagen
formation, it Is involved in the blood sugar control mechanism and
thus protects against diabetes; it is needed for a healthy
reproductive system.


Zinc is a key component in numerous vital enzymes and plays a role in
the immune system. Phytates found in soy products interfere with zinc
absorption more completely than with other minerals. Literature
extolling soy products tends to minimize the role of zinc in human
physiology, and to gloss over the deleterious effect of diets high in
phytic acid.


Milk drinking is given as the reason second generation Japanese in
America grow taller than their native ancestors. Some investigators
postulate that the reduced phytate content of the American
diet-whatever maybe its other deficiencies-is the true explanation,
pointing out that Asian and Oriental children who do not get enough
meat and fish products to counteract the effects of a high phytate
diet, frequently suffer rickets, stunting and other growth problems.


Marketing the Soybean The truth is, however, that most Americans are
unlikely to adopt traditional soy products as their principle food.
Tofu, bean curd and tempeh have disagreeable texture and are too bland
for the Western palate; pungent and tasty miso and natto lose out in
taste; only soy sauce enjoys widespread popularity as a condiment. The
soy industry has therefore looked for other ways to market the
superabundance of soybeans now grown in the United States.


Large scale cultivation of the soybean in the United States began only
after the Second World War, and quickly rose to 140 billion pounds per
year. Most of the crop is made into animal feed, soy oil for
hydrogenated fats margarine and shortening. During the past 20 years,
the industry has concentrated on finding markets for the byproducts of
soy oil manufacture, including soy "lecithin", made from the oil
sludge, and soy protein products, made from defatted soy flakes, a
challenge that has involved overcoming consumer resistance to soy
products, generally considered tasteless "poverty foods.


The quickest way to gain product acceptability in the less affluent
society," said a soy industry spokesman, " ... is to have the product
consumed on its own merit in a more affluent society."" Hence the
proliferation of soy products resembling traditional American
foods-soy milk for cows milk, soy baby formula, soy yogurt, soy ice
cream, soy cheese, soy flour for baking and textured soy protein as
meat substitutes, usually promoted as high protein, low-fat, no
cholesterol "health foods" to the upscale consumer increasingly
concerned about his health. The growth of vegetarianism among the more
affluent classes has greatly accelerated the acceptability and use of
these artificial products. Unfortunately they pose numerous dangers.


Processing Denatures and Dangers Remain The production of soy milk is
relatively simple. In order to remove as much of the trypsin inhibitor
content as possible, the beans are first soaked in an alkaline
solution. The pureed solution is then heated to about 115 degrees
Centigrade in a pressure cooker. This method destroys most (but not
all) of the anti-nutrients but has the unhappy side effect of so
denaturing the proteins that they become very difficult to digest and
much reduced in effectiveness. The phytate content remains in soy milk
to block the uptake of essential minerals. In addition, the alkaline
soaking solution produces a carcinogen, lysinealine, and reduces the
cystine content, which is already low in the soybean. Lacking cystine,
the entire protein complex of the soybean becomes useless unless the
diet is fortified with cystine-rich meat, eggs, or dairy products.


Most soy products that imitate traditional American food items,
including baby formulas and some brands of soy milk, are made with soy
protein isolate, that is the soy protein isolated from the
carbohydrate and fatty acid components that naturally occur in the
bean. Soy beans are first ground and subjected to high-temperature and
solvent extraction processes to remove the oils. The resultant
defatted meal is then mixed with an alkaline solution and sugars in a
separation process to remove fiber. Then it is precipitated and
separated using an acid wash. Finally the resultant curds are
neutralized in an alkaline solution and spray dried at high
temperatures to produce high protein powder.


This is a highly refined product in which both vitamin and protein
quality are compromised-but some trypsin inhibitors remain, even after
such extreme refining. Trypsin inhibitor content of soy protein
isolate can vary as much as 5-fold. In rats, even low level trypsin
inhibitor soy protein isolate feeding results in reduced weight gain
compared to controls. Soy product producers are not required to state
trypsin inhibitor content on labels, nor even to meet minimum
standards, and the public, trained to avoid dietary cholesterol, a
substance vital for normal growth and metabolism, has never heard of
the potent anti-nutrients found in cholesterol-free soy products.


Soy Formula Is Not the Answer Soy protein isolate is the main
ingredient of soy-based infant formulas. Along with trypsin
inhibitors, these formulas have a high phytate content. Use of soy
formula has caused zinc deficiency in infants. Aluminum content of soy
formula is 10 times greater than milk based formula, and 100 times
greater than unprocessed milk. Aluminum has a toxic effect on the
kidneys of infants, and has been implicated as cause in Alzheimer's in
adults.


Soy milk formulas are often given to babies with milk allergy; but
allergies to soy are almost as common as those to milk. Soy formulas
lack cholesterol which is absolutely essential for the development of
the brain and nervous system; they also lack lactose and galactose,
which play an equally important role in the development of the nervous
system. I would strongly discourage the use of soy formulas.


Nitrosamines, which are potent carcinogens, are often found in soy
protein foods, and are greatly increased during the high temperature
drying process. Not surprisingly, animal feeding studies show a lower
weight gain for rats on soy formula than those on whole milk,
high-lactose formula; similar results have been observed in children
on macrobiotic diets which include the use of soy milk and large
amounts of whole grains. Children brought up on high-phytate diets
tend to be thin and scrawny.


Fabricated Soy Foods A final indignity to the original soy bean is
high-temperature, high-pressure extrusion processing of soy protein
isolate to product textured vegetable protein (TVP). Numerous
artificial flavorings, particularly MSG, are added to TVP products to
mask their strong "beany" taste, and impart the flavor of meat. Soy
protein isolate and textured vegetable protein are used extensively in
school lunch programs, commercial baked goods, diet beverages and fast
food products. They are heavily promoted in third world countries and
form the basis of many food give-away programs. These soy products
greatly inhibit zinc and iron absorption; in test animals they cause
enlarged organs, particularly the pancreas and thyroid gland, and
increased deposition of fatty acids in the liver.


Human feeding tests to determine the cholesterol lowering properties
of soy protein isolate have not shown them to be effective.
Nevertheless, they are often promoted as having beneficial effects on
cholesterol levels.


Cancer Preventing or Cancer Causing? The food industry also touts soy
products for their cancer preventing properties. Isoflavone aglycones
are anticarcinogenic substances found in traditionally fermented
soybean products. However, in non-fermented soy products such as tofu
and soy milk, these isoflavones are present in an altered form as
beta-glycoside conjugates, which have no anti-carcinogenic effect.
Some researchers believe the rapid increase in liver and pancreatic
cancer in Africa is due to the introduction of soy products there.


The fatty acid profile of the soybean includes large amounts of
beneficial omega-3 fatty acids compared to other pulses legumes); but
these omega-3 fatty acids are particularly susceptible to rancidity
when subjected to high pressures and temperatures. This is exactly
what is required to remove oil from the bean, as soybean oil is
particularly difficult to extract. hexane or other solvents are always
used to extract oil from soybeans, and traces remain in the commercial
product.


While fermented soy products contain protein, vitamins,
anti-carcinogenic substances and important fatty acids, they can under
no circumstances be called nutritionally complete. Like all pulses,
the soybean lacks vital sulfur-containing amino acids cystine and
methionine. These are usually supplied by rice and other grains in
areas where the soybean is traditionally consumed. Soy should never be
considered as a substitute for animal products like meat or milk.
Claims that fermented soy products like tempeh can be relied on as a
source of vitamin B12, necessary for healthy blood and nervous system,
have not been supported by scientific research.,' Finally, soybeans do
not supply all-important fat soluble vitamins D and preformed A
(retinol) which act as catalysts for the proper absorption and
utilization of all minerals and water soluble vitamins in the diet.


These "fat soluble activators" are found only in certain animal foods
such as organ meats, butter, eggs, fish and shellfish. Carotenes from
plant foods and exposure to sunlight are not sufficient to supply the
body's requirements for vitamins A and D. Soy products often replace
animal products in third world countries where intake of B12 and fat
soluble A and D are already low. Soy products actually increase
requirements for vitamins B12 and D.


Are soy products easy to digest, as claimed? Fermented soy products
probably are; but unfermented products with their cargo of phytates,
enzyme inhibitors, rancid fatty acids and altered proteins most
certainly are not. Pet food manufacturers promote soy free dog and cat
food as "highly digestible"


Only Fermented Soy Products Are Safe To summarize, traditional
fermented soy products such as miso, natto and tempeh, which are
usually made with organically grown soybeans, have a long history of
use that is generally beneficial when combined with other elements of
the Oriental diet including rice, sea foods, fish broth, organ meats
and fermented vegetables. The value of precipitated soybean products
is problematical, especially when they form the major source of
protein in the diet. Modern soy products including soy milks and
artificial meat and dairy products made from soy protein isolate and
textured vegetable protein are new to the diet and pose a number of
serious problems.


The above information was abstracted from an article written by Sally
Fallon and Mary Enig, Ph.D. (an international expert renown in the
field of lipid chemistry) for Health Freedom News in September of
1995.

--
Oz

Jim Webster wrote:
> "pearl" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>"Jim Webster" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>>>"Scented Nectar" > wrote in message
...
>>
>><..>
>>
>>>>Keep eating that meat, Abby. Especially any
>>>>tissue with nervous system cells. We'll use you
>>>>as a willing tester.
>>
>>Tissue without nerves, lymph and blood..
>>
>
>
> except that we have been eating many millions of sheep, with nothing removed
> for the same period. And there are still only 20 a year, as opposed to 100 a
> year falling out of bed. So I'm afraid you will have to look for something
> else to get hysterical about. Howabout soya or nuts?
>
> Jim Webster
>
>
There is always global warming/cooling, depending on the day's
temperature.
I forget, are eggs good or bad for us today? I think there was once a
scare raised
over canned food. The cans were supposedly going to deteriorate and
get into the
food. Has anyone investigated the plastic wrappers used for bread?


Dean


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Scented Nectar wrote:
> > Dean, the original poster, "Skunky," has never had a rational
thought
> > in her life. She posted this sheerly as a hand-wringing,
> > fear-mongering exercise - "Oooh, look, see eating meat is BBAAD FOR
> > YEEWWW!"
> >
> > That's the level of discourse she's capable of. Nothing more.
>
> Keep eating that meat, Abby. Especially any
> tissue with nervous system cells. We'll use you
> as a willing tester.

See what I mean?

Damn, Skunky, you ARE the best possible foil.

>
>
> --
> SN
> http://www.scentednectar.com/veg/
> A huge directory listing over 700 veg recipe sites.
> Has a fun 'Jump to a Random Link' button.

> > Keep eating that meat, Abby. Especially any
> > tissue with nervous system cells. We'll use you
> > as a willing tester.
>
> See what I mean?
>
> Damn, Skunky, you ARE the best possible foil.


Um, thank you, I think. You know it really is
good of you to not mind doing the human
testing of it.

--
SN
http://www.scentednectar.com/veg/
A huge directory listing over 700 veg recipe sites.
Has a fun 'Jump to a Random Link' button.

"Scented Nectar" > wrote in message
...
> > > Keep eating that meat, Abby. Especially any
> > > tissue with nervous system cells. We'll use you
> > > as a willing tester.
> >
> > See what I mean?
> >
> > Damn, Skunky, you ARE the best possible foil.
>
>
> Um, thank you, I think. You know it really is
> good of you to not mind doing the human
> testing of it.

how stupid and irrational can you get

All through the world people have been eating sheep, including tissue with
nervous system cells, for god alone knows how long.

If it is assumed that BSE jumped from sheep to cattle in the 1980s then in
the UK we have been eating them for nearly a generation.

There are still less than 20 cases of nvCJD a year, the number is still
falling, and in the web page so carefully posted by lotus/pearl, the numbers
of dementia cases are rising only in line with the aging population

so what is there to be hysterical about?

Jim Webster

> If it is assumed that BSE jumped from sheep to cattle in the 1980s
then in
> the UK we have been eating them for nearly a generation.

Prion diseases are known for their long dormancy.
I wouldn't trust them just yet.

> There are still less than 20 cases of nvCJD a year, the number is
still
> falling, and in the web page so carefully posted by lotus/pearl, the
numbers
> of dementia cases are rising only in line with the aging population
>
> so what is there to be hysterical about?

Hopefully nothing.


--
SN
http://www.scentednectar.com/veg/
A huge directory listing over 700 veg recipe sites.
Has a fun 'Jump to a Random Link' button.

"Scented Nectar" > wrote in message
news
> > If it is assumed that BSE jumped from sheep to cattle in the 1980s
> then in
> > the UK we have been eating them for nearly a generation.
>
> Prion diseases are known for their long dormancy.
> I wouldn't trust them just yet.

But we know the length of the dormancy, look at the dates of on set and the
current tailing off. They have even done the tests on tissues from the
living, to check for dormancy

> > There are still less than 20 cases of nvCJD a year, the number is
> still
> > falling, and in the web page so carefully posted by lotus/pearl, the
> numbers
> > of dementia cases are rising only in line with the aging population
> >
> > so what is there to be hysterical about?
>
> Hopefully nothing.

then how about worrying about something real and get a life?

Jim Webster

"BBAAD FOR YEEWWW!"
..

Bunghole ~jonnie~ hates women ....doncha ~jonnie~?
There isn't a woman on this planet that can make Bunghole ~jonnie's~
gerbil size weener hard........isn't that right ~jonnie~?
That's why you hate them......isn't it, ~jonnie~?
It's all *their* fault.....isn't it ~jonnie~?

Scented Nectar wrote:
> > If it is assumed that BSE jumped from sheep to cattle in the 1980s
> then in
> > the UK we have been eating them for nearly a generation.
>
> Prion diseases are known for their long dormancy.
> I wouldn't trust them just yet.
>
> > There are still less than 20 cases of nvCJD a year, the number is
> still
> > falling, and in the web page so carefully posted by lotus/pearl,
the
> numbers
> > of dementia cases are rising only in line with the aging population
> >
> > so what is there to be hysterical about?
>
> Hopefully nothing.

Stop lying. You hope fervently that there IS something to be
hysterical about; it's the only hope you have for anything like
mainstream acceptance of the screwball "vegan" agenda.


>
>
> --
> SN
> http://www.scentednectar.com/veg/
> A huge directory listing over 700 veg recipe sites.
> Has a fun 'Jump to a Random Link' button.

In article >,
(Oz) says...

> Only Fermented Soy Products Are Safe To summarize, traditional
> fermented soy products such as miso, natto and tempeh, which are
> usually made with organically grown soybeans, have a long history of
> use that is generally beneficial when combined with other elements of
> the Oriental diet including rice, sea foods, fish broth, organ meats
> and fermented vegetables. The value of precipitated soybean products
> is problematical, especially when they form the major source of
> protein in the diet. Modern soy products including soy milks and
> artificial meat and dairy products made from soy protein isolate and
> textured vegetable protein are new to the diet and pose a number of
> serious problems.

In Japan, in areas where tofu and similar soy products form the majority
of the diet, soy products have been implicated in premature senility.

Soy products are probably safe enough as part of a balanced diet, but
like any other food, should not be consumed to excess.

--
http://home.teleport.com/~larryc

In article >, (Jim
Webster) says...

> If it is assumed that BSE jumped from sheep to cattle in the 1980s then in
> the UK we have been eating them for nearly a generation.

I always suspected that CJD jumped from humans to cattle through the
mechanism of a modern Sweeny Todd who happened to work in a livestock
feed plant. Instead of ending up in sausage, his victims ended up in
livestock feed.

--
http://home.teleport.com/~larryc

In article t>,
Larry Caldwell > wrote:

> In article >,
> (Oz) says...
>
> > Only Fermented Soy Products Are Safe To summarize, traditional
> > fermented soy products such as miso, natto and tempeh, which are
> > usually made with organically grown soybeans, have a long history of
> > use that is generally beneficial when combined with other elements of
> > the Oriental diet including rice, sea foods, fish broth, organ meats
> > and fermented vegetables. The value of precipitated soybean products
> > is problematical, especially when they form the major source of
> > protein in the diet. Modern soy products including soy milks and
> > artificial meat and dairy products made from soy protein isolate and
> > textured vegetable protein are new to the diet and pose a number of
> > serious problems.
>
> In Japan, in areas where tofu and similar soy products form the majority
> of the diet, soy products have been implicated in premature senility.
>
> Soy products are probably safe enough as part of a balanced diet, but
> like any other food, should not be consumed to excess.

Coincidence and cause.

"Ron" > wrote in message
...
> In article t>,
> Larry Caldwell > wrote:
>
> > In article >,
> > (Oz) says...
> >
> > > Only Fermented Soy Products Are Safe To summarize, traditional
> > > fermented soy products such as miso, natto and tempeh, which are
> > > usually made with organically grown soybeans, have a long history of
> > > use that is generally beneficial when combined with other elements of
> > > the Oriental diet including rice, sea foods, fish broth, organ meats
> > > and fermented vegetables. The value of precipitated soybean products
> > > is problematical, especially when they form the major source of
> > > protein in the diet. Modern soy products including soy milks and
> > > artificial meat and dairy products made from soy protein isolate and
> > > textured vegetable protein are new to the diet and pose a number of
> > > serious problems.
> >
> > In Japan, in areas where tofu and similar soy products form the majority
> > of the diet, soy products have been implicated in premature senility.
> >
> > Soy products are probably safe enough as part of a balanced diet, but
> > like any other food, should not be consumed to excess.
>
> Coincidence and cause.

Invoke the precautionary principle. I suggest that we keep on feeding soya
to animals as part of an animal testing programme to see if it is actually
safe for humans to eat

Jim Webster

Ron wrote:

> In article t>,
> Larry Caldwell > wrote:
>
>
>>In article >,
(Oz) says...
>>
>>
>>>Only Fermented Soy Products Are Safe To summarize, traditional
>>>fermented soy products such as miso, natto and tempeh, which are
>>>usually made with organically grown soybeans, have a long history of
>>>use that is generally beneficial when combined with other elements of
>>>the Oriental diet including rice, sea foods, fish broth, organ meats
>>>and fermented vegetables. The value of precipitated soybean products
>>>is problematical, especially when they form the major source of
>>>protein in the diet. Modern soy products including soy milks and
>>>artificial meat and dairy products made from soy protein isolate and
>>>textured vegetable protein are new to the diet and pose a number of
>>>serious problems.
>>
>>In Japan, in areas where tofu and similar soy products form the majority
>>of the diet, soy products have been implicated in premature senility.
>>
>>Soy products are probably safe enough as part of a balanced diet, but
>>like any other food, should not be consumed to excess.
>
>
> Coincidence and cause.

You really like your little buzzphrases, don't you,
homo Ron? In fact, you are thoroughly UNQUALIFIED to
understand any studies that may have implicated high
soy intake in the occurrence of some forms of senility.
It's possible the studies were flawed, but it's also
possible they were not, and YOU are not qualified to
tell the difference.

Jim Webster > writes
>Invoke the precautionary principle. I suggest that we keep on feeding soya
>to animals as part of an animal testing programme to see if it is actually
>safe for humans to eat

Soya in pig rations (at least) has a phantom 'extra growth effect' not
related to its nutritional value. Cynics might point out that this
matches the phytoestrogen levels quite well.

--
Oz

Larry Caldwell > writes
>In article >, (Jim
>Webster) says...
>
>> If it is assumed that BSE jumped from sheep to cattle in the 1980s then in
>> the UK we have been eating them for nearly a generation.
>
>I always suspected that CJD jumped from humans to cattle through the
>mechanism of a modern Sweeny Todd who happened to work in a livestock
>feed plant. Instead of ending up in sausage, his victims ended up in
>livestock feed.

Indeed, something I considered some while ago.

Given the high exposure and low pathogenicity in humans this is not a
viable hypothesis.

--
Oz

"Oz" > wrote in message
...
> Jim Webster > writes
> >Invoke the precautionary principle. I suggest that we keep on feeding
soya
> >to animals as part of an animal testing programme to see if it is
actually
> >safe for humans to eat
>
> Soya in pig rations (at least) has a phantom 'extra growth effect' not
> related to its nutritional value. Cynics might point out that this
> matches the phytoestrogen levels quite well.

well that stuff Torsten posted way back pointed out the phytoestrogen issue.
Funnily enough years ago I went to a meeting on the use of hormone growth
promoters. Feeding cattle cabbage can push up levels far higher than the
hormone pill behind the ear. Similarly the levels of hormone in a cow, even
a gelt cow, are several orders of magnitude higher than in a treated bullock

Jim Webster

"BBAAD FOR YEEWWW!" Squealed Bunghole ~jonnie~
..
Bunghole ~jonnie~ really, really hates women.......doncha ~jonnie~?
There isn't a woman on the planet that can make Bunghole ~jonnie's~
gerbil sized weenie come to attention..........isn't that right
~jonnie~?
..
That's why you hate them.......isn't that right ~jonnie~?
..
It's all *their* fault............isn't it ~jonnie~?

"Jim Webster" > wrote in message ...
>
> "pearl" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Jim Webster" > wrote in message
> ...
> > >
> > > "Scented Nectar" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > <..>
> > > > Keep eating that meat, Abby. Especially any
> > > > tissue with nervous system cells. We'll use you
> > > > as a willing tester.
> >
> > Tissue without nerves, lymph and blood..
> >
>
> except that we have been eating many millions of sheep, with nothing removed
> for the same period. And there are still only 20 a year, as opposed to 100 a
> year falling out of bed. So I'm afraid you will have to look for something
> else to get hysterical about. Howabout soya or nuts?

Howabout 'sporadic' CDJ, misdiagnosed Alzheimer's and dementia?

"Oz" > wrote in message
...
> Larry Caldwell > writes
>>In article >, (Jim
>>Webster) says...
>>
>>> If it is assumed that BSE jumped from sheep to cattle in the 1980s then
>>> in
>>> the UK we have been eating them for nearly a generation.
>>
>>I always suspected that CJD jumped from humans to cattle through the
>>mechanism of a modern Sweeny Todd who happened to work in a livestock
>>feed plant. Instead of ending up in sausage, his victims ended up in
>>livestock feed.
>
> Indeed, something I considered some while ago.
>
> Given the high exposure and low pathogenicity in humans this is not a
> viable hypothesis.
>

Unless modern Mr Todd has a high output production line. Look how long
Shipman got away with it. Of course he didn't have a meat packing plant. But
if he did?

Huw

In article >,
"Jim Webster" > wrote:

> "Ron" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article t>,
> > Larry Caldwell > wrote:
> >
> > > In article >,
> > > (Oz) says...
> > >
> > > > Only Fermented Soy Products Are Safe To summarize, traditional
> > > > fermented soy products such as miso, natto and tempeh, which are
> > > > usually made with organically grown soybeans, have a long history of
> > > > use that is generally beneficial when combined with other elements of
> > > > the Oriental diet including rice, sea foods, fish broth, organ meats
> > > > and fermented vegetables. The value of precipitated soybean products
> > > > is problematical, especially when they form the major source of
> > > > protein in the diet. Modern soy products including soy milks and
> > > > artificial meat and dairy products made from soy protein isolate and
> > > > textured vegetable protein are new to the diet and pose a number of
> > > > serious problems.
> > >
> > > In Japan, in areas where tofu and similar soy products form the majority
> > > of the diet, soy products have been implicated in premature senility.
> > >
> > > Soy products are probably safe enough as part of a balanced diet, but
> > > like any other food, should not be consumed to excess.
> >
> > Coincidence and cause.
>
> Invoke the precautionary principle. I suggest that we keep on feeding soya
> to animals as part of an animal testing programme to see if it is actually
> safe for humans to eat

Yes, the rule of the paranoid. Animal studies are flawed.

The Hawaiian study has many questions. Firstly, the US has a higher
incidence of Alzheimer's and senility than Japan. The Japanese
population studies were on US soil, namely the Hawaiian island chain.
Soy and tofu products are consumed less frequently in the US than in
Japan. How they decided to that soy _might_ be a cause of the onset of
senility is yet to be adequately explained.

In article et>,
Rudy Canoza > wrote:

> Ron wrote:
>
> > In article t>,
> > Larry Caldwell > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>In article >,
> (Oz) says...
> >>
> >>
> >>>Only Fermented Soy Products Are Safe To summarize, traditional
> >>>fermented soy products such as miso, natto and tempeh, which are
> >>>usually made with organically grown soybeans, have a long history of
> >>>use that is generally beneficial when combined with other elements of
> >>>the Oriental diet including rice, sea foods, fish broth, organ meats
> >>>and fermented vegetables. The value of precipitated soybean products
> >>>is problematical, especially when they form the major source of
> >>>protein in the diet. Modern soy products including soy milks and
> >>>artificial meat and dairy products made from soy protein isolate and
> >>>textured vegetable protein are new to the diet and pose a number of
> >>>serious problems.
> >>
> >>In Japan, in areas where tofu and similar soy products form the majority
> >>of the diet, soy products have been implicated in premature senility.
> >>
> >>Soy products are probably safe enough as part of a balanced diet, but
> >>like any other food, should not be consumed to excess.
> >
> >
> > Coincidence and cause.
>
> You really like your little buzzphrases, don't you,
> homo Ron? In fact, you are thoroughly UNQUALIFIED to
> understand any studies that may have implicated high
> soy intake in the occurrence of some forms of senility.
> It's possible the studies were flawed, but it's also
> possible they were not, and YOU are not qualified to
> tell the difference.

Indeed. Let's not question the "experts". Experts aren't human. Experts
don't make mistakes. Experts don't have agendas, motivations and biases.

Ron wrote:
> In article et>,
> Rudy Canoza > wrote:
>
> > homo felcher Ron wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >>Soy products are probably safe enough as part of a balanced diet,
but
> > >>like any other food, should not be consumed to excess.
> > >
> > >
> > > Coincidence and cause.
> >
> > You really like your little buzzphrases, don't you,
> > homo Ron? In fact, you are thoroughly UNQUALIFIED to
> > understand any studies that may have implicated high
> > soy intake in the occurrence of some forms of senility.
> > It's possible the studies were flawed, but it's also
> > possible they were not, and YOU are not qualified to
> > tell the difference.
>
> Indeed. [snip juvenile sarcasm]

You don't have any basis for questioning the experts, homo felcher Ron.
You simply belch your little buzzphrase. The fact, little homo
felcher Ron, is that you don't have any idea if a statistically
significant relationship between soy and dementia, possibly pointing to
a causal relationship, has been found or not. You, some kind of
science-ignorant poet, simply sit on the sideline and belch on cue,
"coincidence and cause".

You don't know what the **** you're talking about, you pathetic little
simpering homo.

In article .com>,
"Rudy Canoza" > wrote:

> Ron wrote:
> > In article et>,
> > Rudy Canoza > wrote:
> >
> > > homo felcher Ron wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >>Soy products are probably safe enough as part of a balanced diet,
> but
> > > >>like any other food, should not be consumed to excess.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Coincidence and cause.
> > >
> > > You really like your little buzzphrases, don't you,
> > > homo Ron? In fact, you are thoroughly UNQUALIFIED to
> > > understand any studies that may have implicated high
> > > soy intake in the occurrence of some forms of senility.
> > > It's possible the studies were flawed, but it's also
> > > possible they were not, and YOU are not qualified to
> > > tell the difference.
> >
> > Indeed. [snip juvenile sarcasm]
>
> You don't have any basis for questioning the experts, homo felcher Ron.
> You simply belch your little buzzphrase. The fact, little homo
> felcher Ron, is that you don't have any idea if a statistically
> significant relationship between soy and dementia, possibly pointing to
> a causal relationship, has been found or not. You, some kind of
> science-ignorant poet, simply sit on the sideline and belch on cue,
> "coincidence and cause".
>
> You don't know what the **** you're talking about, you pathetic little
> simpering homo.

No critical though there. As I suggested earlier, Rudy, believing
everything you read merely makes you a sucker. Ah, the spoon-fed masses.

In article .com>, "Rudy Canoza" > wrote:
(snip)
>You don't have any basis for questioning the experts, homo felcher Ron.

Rule number 1. Always question the experts. How else will you ever learn
anything ?


Bruce


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to
think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone´s fault.
If it was Us, what did that make Me ? After all, I´m one of Us. I must be.
I´ve certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No-one ever thinks
of themselves as one of Them. We´re always one of Us. It´s Them that do
the bad things. <=> Terry Pratchett. Jingo.

Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
(if there were any)

Ron wrote:
> In article .com>,
> "Rudy Canoza" > wrote:
>
> > pathetic homo felcher Ron wrote:
> > > In article et>,
> > > Rudy Canoza > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > Coincidence and cause.
> > > >
> > > > You really like your little buzzphrases, don't you,
> > > > homo Ron? In fact, you are thoroughly UNQUALIFIED to
> > > > understand any studies that may have implicated high
> > > > soy intake in the occurrence of some forms of senility.
> > > > It's possible the studies were flawed, but it's also
> > > > possible they were not, and YOU are not qualified to
> > > > tell the difference.
> > >
> > > Indeed. [snip juvenile sarcasm]
> >
> > You don't have any basis for questioning the experts, homo felcher
Ron.
> > You simply belch your little buzzphrase. The fact, little homo
> > felcher Ron, is that you don't have any idea if a statistically
> > significant relationship between soy and dementia, possibly
pointing to
> > a causal relationship, has been found or not. You, some kind of
> > science-ignorant poet, simply sit on the sideline and belch on cue,
> > "coincidence and cause".
> >
> > You don't know what the **** you're talking about, you pathetic
little
> > simpering homo.
>
> As I suggested earlier, Rudy, believing everything you read

Strawman. I never said I believe everything I read, little pathetic
ignorant homo Ron, nor do you have any rational basis for believing I
do.

> Ah, the spoon-fed masses.

Ah, the delusional solipsist who thinks he is the source of all
knowledge.

"Ron" > wrote

> No critical though there. As I suggested earlier, Rudy, believing
> everything you read merely makes you a sucker.

You didn't establish he does anything like that.

> Ah, the spoon-fed masses.

Disbelieving everything you read is better than believing everything you
read based on what logic exactly?

"Bruce Sinclair" > wrote in
message news
> In article .com>, "Rudy
> Canoza" > wrote:
> (snip)
>>You don't have any basis for questioning the experts, homo felcher Ron.
>
> Rule number 1. Always question the experts. How else will you ever learn
> anything ?

Pay attention Bruce.

Huw <hedydd@[nospam]> writes
>
>"Oz" > wrote in message
...
>>>I always suspected that CJD jumped from humans to cattle through the
>>>mechanism of a modern Sweeny Todd who happened to work in a livestock
>>>feed plant. Instead of ending up in sausage, his victims ended up in
>>>livestock feed.
>>
>> Indeed, something I considered some while ago.
>>
>> Given the high exposure and low pathogenicity in humans this is not a
>> viable hypothesis.
>>
>
>Unless modern Mr Todd has a high output production line. Look how long
>Shipman got away with it. Of course he didn't have a meat packing plant. But
>if he did?

Eh? What's that got to do with it?

CJD is horrendously infective in humans, bse is not.
Ergo its very unlikely that bse originated in humans,
or domestic cattle come to that.

--
Oz

"Ron" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Jim Webster" > wrote:
>
> > "Ron" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > In article t>,
> > > Larry Caldwell > wrote:
> > >
> > > > In article >,
> > > > (Oz) says...
> > > >
> > > > > Only Fermented Soy Products Are Safe To summarize, traditional
> > > > > fermented soy products such as miso, natto and tempeh, which are
> > > > > usually made with organically grown soybeans, have a long history
of
> > > > > use that is generally beneficial when combined with other elements
of
> > > > > the Oriental diet including rice, sea foods, fish broth, organ
meats
> > > > > and fermented vegetables. The value of precipitated soybean
products
> > > > > is problematical, especially when they form the major source of
> > > > > protein in the diet. Modern soy products including soy milks and
> > > > > artificial meat and dairy products made from soy protein isolate
and
> > > > > textured vegetable protein are new to the diet and pose a number
of
> > > > > serious problems.
> > > >
> > > > In Japan, in areas where tofu and similar soy products form the
majority
> > > > of the diet, soy products have been implicated in premature
senility.
> > > >
> > > > Soy products are probably safe enough as part of a balanced diet,
but
> > > > like any other food, should not be consumed to excess.
> > >
> > > Coincidence and cause.
> >
> > Invoke the precautionary principle. I suggest that we keep on feeding
soya
> > to animals as part of an animal testing programme to see if it is
actually
> > safe for humans to eat
>
> Yes, the rule of the paranoid. Animal studies are flawed.

hint

irony does not involve ferrous metals

Jim Webster