Why not also post the counter argument? You're not deceitful are you?


Counter Point by Mark Dong

While I agree that most Chinese and Korean pseudo Japanese restaurants
aren't as good as Japanese restaurants your arguments are kind of
condescending to Korean and Chinese people. You get so angry that they
seem to be "stealing" Japanese culture and ideas but didn't the
Japanese "borrow" many things from the Koreans and almost all Sino
Asian countries have appropriated some form of language, food items,
grammar, clothing, martial arts, etc. from the Chinese. I mean isn't
the Japanese Kanji Chinese? What would happen if Chinese people were
angry that Japanese stole their calligraphy and say they are angry
that they are trying to pass it off as Japanese? Hell, The Italians
stole noodles from China! But all these countries did trade and
exchanged and borrowed ideas and customs from another.

I think your argument is that these people shouldn't portray
themselves as Japanese to sell food when they are not. But when you
say "real" Japanese food I get confused as to the definitions. What is
"real" Japanese food anyway? What's real Chinese food? Is it only real
if a Japanese person prepares it instead of a Chinese or Korean
person? Is there a Uniform way of making sushi in all Japanese
restaurants? I think the way you used the terms "They" is pretty
racist even though you don't mean it or don't mean it that harshly.

I've been to a lot of Japanese owned restaurants that are really bad
and you are right I have been to a lot of Chinese and Korean ones that
were goddamn awful. Since you live in New York you know that a lot of
the Japanese restaurants on St. Marks Place are owned by Japanese and
a lot of them aren't that good. There is one restaurant that is called
"ZEN" one of the words that you say a Japanese person would not use,
but I know the owner is Japanese. As well as a convenience store that
is owned by a Japanese person called "FUJI" on Sullivan Street and I
do believe there is a restaurant called "Tokyo" but I don't know what
the ethnicity of the owner is but it does look like it is owned by
Japanese according to the rest of your requirements.

I also do not know of your definitions for Exploitation but since you
work in advertising it's kind of hypocritical for you to get on your
high horse when many advertising firms use overtly racist stereotyping
to sell ideas. I remember when the movie MULAN from Disney came out
and they had a special sesame seed sauce for McDonald's chicken
nuggets and the advert actually used the words "it's Chinamite!" to
sell the ethnicity and exoticism of a chicken nugget dipping sauce.
Imagine if they said "It's Blacktacular!" or "it's Jewlicious!"

Also I don't understand the qualifications for real Japanese food.
What if the restaurant is owned by Japanese but since I'm sure Chinese
workers are cheaper some are hired and prepare the dishes? There is a
Japanese styled restaurant that is mediocre on Centre street that is
owned by a Chinese person and even though the food isn't as great as
the best Japanese restaurant the decor isn't half bad and they have
none of those cheap exploitive gimmicks in your White Paper.

I think what you are mad at is that there is a lot of bad Japanese
takeout/restaurants but the same could be said of Chinese and Korean
places. I say the main problem is basically quality. But in this day
and age, people forget their identities. People eat in the olive
garden which isn't really Italian but is a stereotype of an Italian
kitchen and it isn't half bad. I mean there is the outback steakhouse
which promises "Australian" food, whatever that means. I mean Burger
king - Hamburgers are German aren't they? McDonalds? Supposed to be
Irish right? Is pizza hut supposed to be Sicilian? Taco Bell? 'Nuff
said.

I mean all these restaurants are just machines of the American psyche
and diet. Americans like to define food as people and I guess your
argument is that if people make bad Japanese food then it sheds bad
light on Japanese people. But I'd like to add that most of these
Chinese/Korean places are priced pretty cheap and that wasn't on your
list of how to differentiate a Japanese restaurant. It's basically
fast food, you know. Real Japanese just like Real Chinese and Real
Korean food that is exquisitely prepared in authentic environments are
always notoriously expensive. I mean Yama's prices are okay but the
wait for a table is expensive in itself.

The thing is, even bad Japanese food owned by Japanese people is
expensive. That's why I don't like to try new Japanese places owned by
Japanese until someone recommends me. I once had to pay a dollar for
some soy sauce packets. With Chinese/Korean places you know the food
will be edible but it won't make a dent in your wallet. Besides
Japanese food there is an even bigger explosion of Mexican themed
takeout/restaurants that are owned by Chinese people. You would assume
since Mexicans are the cheapest labor force in the states you would
see them working in a Mexican restaurant but no, almost all Chinese. I
see all these Chinese/Korean Japanese restaurants like little teriyaki
boys franchises. I don't think Teriyaki boy is Japanese at all but
it's portrayed to be. Does anyone think when biting into a taco bell
burrito that it's authentic Mexican food. I hope I wasn't
disrespecting Mexican culture when I bought that quesadilla and put
mild picante sauce on it.

I really love your website but I don't agree with your whole "Chinese
people love red and most of THEM are cheap and exploitative and "the
printing characteristics can tell you who is culturally behind It".
The tone of your piece sounds like "Chinese/Korean people are tacky
and vulgar" and "Japanese have style and wouldn't be so crass" and
that's why I take umbrage.

I'm Vietnamese and I can also definitely tell if it's a Chinese or
Japanese owned restaurant. But you forgot the most important clue. The
prepareres usually speak to each other in Japanese or Chinese. I think
Chinese/Korean people are only following the American Business model.
Today it's Japanese, tomorrow It's Indian (very Hot right now). But
you have to give all us true gourmets credit that we can spot them and
you know what? I still eat at taco bell even though it ain't Mexican.

I should also delved more into "are the Chinese trying to pose as
Japanese?" question. Because I don't think they are. As I wrote before
they have opened a lot of Mexican takeout/restaurants and they clearly
are not trying to pose as Mexicans. It's just that Japanese food is in
vogue and it's simple supply and demand.

And there is another issue I need to address which in my mind is the
bigger problem: Chinoiserie and Japonism. The whole wonton font is
really a western interpretation of Eastern culture. For some reason,
the west likes to change eastern customs and integrate them into their
own. If you ever order food in a Chinese restaurant and they put water
chestnuts in it, it's not for eastern tastes but for western
aesthetics. And some forms of sweet and sour pork have been totally
modified (butchered) for the western (mid-western, bible belt,
gun-toting?) diet. I think it's done to sell so called exotic foreign
foods to the mainstream.

I remember I once went to a Japanese restaurant with my friend and his
younger brother who were Caucasians from the Midwest and his younger
brother said non-jokingly "YOU eat Raw fish?" I laughed my ass off at
his authentic ignorance. A person in Kansas will probably go to a
Japanese restaurant in Kansas and probably ask for egg rolls. And,
he'd probably get one. It's mascot atmospheres that scare me the most.
The themed restaurants are the devil incarnate. Chuck E. cheese must
be stopped cause you never know when they'll open a Charlie Chan's.

In New York I noticed a lot of Japanese restaurants experimenting with
new dishes. Like the dish called dynamite. I think it's absolutely
disgusting but a lot of my Asian friends love the stuff. But getting
back to the point, what happens if a western taste is acquired for
dynamite? Does that dish become some sort of link towards assimilation
of a culture or if it does not is it a question of genetics that I
read somewhere where Asians have different tastes (sweet, sour,
bitter) than other people so that when they introduce certain staples
of their diet into western society that they must customize them to
western tastes but at a loss of quality and distinctness.

Even though I'm ragging on the west for trivializing a culture's food
the East is also guilty and at times worse. When I was in Hong Kong
some of the fast food chains served macaroni and cheese with eggs for
breakfast, which is totally weird when you see the other things on the
menus. I am pretty sure in Japan there are western themed restaurants
with cowboys as waiters and a romanticized atmosphere of bull riding
and living on the ranch. I also know that there are Nazi themed
restaurants in Taiwan and Tokyo where the waiters are dressed like the
SS! Is it sarcastic art or is it ignorance? Either way, I hear they
are doing very well. In Thailand they have waiters dressed as
SPIDERMAN who would serve you and have now moved on to being Neo from
the matrix. So I guess culture assassination isn't just a western
thing. It's universal.
Sep-24-03 9:41P

(Chucky) wrote in news:3d05a32e.0403051533.4d958711
@posting.google.com:

> "it's Chinamite!"

this jumped out at me and made me laugh. I dont recall that ad campaign...

but HOW SILLY. I am amazed at some of the things that men in suits in
boardrooms give a green light to.

especially when it comes to giving me a raise.

but I digress...

--
http://www.ambientzone.net

In article >, Chucky
> wrote:

> Why not also post the counter argument? You're not deceitful are you?

Okay then; now we've heard both sides of whatever argument it may have
been and can move on--undeceitful like--with our lives.

--
"A Dictionary of Japanese Food, Ingredients & Culture" by Richard Hosking
(Tuttle, '97). All anybody needs to know about plumbing the depths of Japanese
food; a cuisine far more vast than sushi.

"The Sake Handbook" by John Gaunter (Tuttle, '02). The be-all and end-all
intro and reference to sake.

Chucky wrote:

> I also know that there are Nazi themed
> restaurants in Taiwan and Tokyo where the waiters are dressed like the
> SS!

If you know this as fact, please let me know where this joint is in Tokyo,
'cos I want to check it out when I'm there next!


*slug*

This counter point isn't too good.
Everything that the original point made, while it may not have been
100% absolutely accurate, was generally true.


"Chucky" > wrote in message
om...
> Why not also post the counter argument? You're not deceitful are you?
>
>
> Counter Point by Mark Dong
>
> While I agree that most Chinese and Korean pseudo Japanese restaurants
> aren't as good as Japanese restaurants your arguments are kind of
> condescending to Korean and Chinese people. You get so angry that they
> seem to be "stealing" Japanese culture and ideas but didn't the
> Japanese "borrow" many things from the Koreans and almost all Sino
> Asian countries have appropriated some form of language, food items,
> grammar, clothing, martial arts, etc. from the Chinese. I mean isn't
> the Japanese Kanji Chinese? What would happen if Chinese people were
> angry that Japanese stole their calligraphy and say they are angry
> that they are trying to pass it off as Japanese? Hell, The Italians
> stole noodles from China! But all these countries did trade and
> exchanged and borrowed ideas and customs from another.
>
> I think your argument is that these people shouldn't portray
> themselves as Japanese to sell food when they are not. But when you
> say "real" Japanese food I get confused as to the definitions. What is
> "real" Japanese food anyway? What's real Chinese food? Is it only real
> if a Japanese person prepares it instead of a Chinese or Korean
> person? Is there a Uniform way of making sushi in all Japanese
> restaurants? I think the way you used the terms "They" is pretty
> racist even though you don't mean it or don't mean it that harshly.
>
> I've been to a lot of Japanese owned restaurants that are really bad
> and you are right I have been to a lot of Chinese and Korean ones that
> were goddamn awful. Since you live in New York you know that a lot of
> the Japanese restaurants on St. Marks Place are owned by Japanese and
> a lot of them aren't that good. There is one restaurant that is called
> "ZEN" one of the words that you say a Japanese person would not use,
> but I know the owner is Japanese. As well as a convenience store that
> is owned by a Japanese person called "FUJI" on Sullivan Street and I
> do believe there is a restaurant called "Tokyo" but I don't know what
> the ethnicity of the owner is but it does look like it is owned by
> Japanese according to the rest of your requirements.
>
> I also do not know of your definitions for Exploitation but since you
> work in advertising it's kind of hypocritical for you to get on your
> high horse when many advertising firms use overtly racist stereotyping
> to sell ideas. I remember when the movie MULAN from Disney came out
> and they had a special sesame seed sauce for McDonald's chicken
> nuggets and the advert actually used the words "it's Chinamite!" to
> sell the ethnicity and exoticism of a chicken nugget dipping sauce.
> Imagine if they said "It's Blacktacular!" or "it's Jewlicious!"
>
> Also I don't understand the qualifications for real Japanese food.
> What if the restaurant is owned by Japanese but since I'm sure Chinese
> workers are cheaper some are hired and prepare the dishes? There is a
> Japanese styled restaurant that is mediocre on Centre street that is
> owned by a Chinese person and even though the food isn't as great as
> the best Japanese restaurant the decor isn't half bad and they have
> none of those cheap exploitive gimmicks in your White Paper.
>
> I think what you are mad at is that there is a lot of bad Japanese
> takeout/restaurants but the same could be said of Chinese and Korean
> places. I say the main problem is basically quality. But in this day
> and age, people forget their identities. People eat in the olive
> garden which isn't really Italian but is a stereotype of an Italian
> kitchen and it isn't half bad. I mean there is the outback steakhouse
> which promises "Australian" food, whatever that means. I mean Burger
> king - Hamburgers are German aren't they? McDonalds? Supposed to be
> Irish right? Is pizza hut supposed to be Sicilian? Taco Bell? 'Nuff
> said.
>
> I mean all these restaurants are just machines of the American psyche
> and diet. Americans like to define food as people and I guess your
> argument is that if people make bad Japanese food then it sheds bad
> light on Japanese people. But I'd like to add that most of these
> Chinese/Korean places are priced pretty cheap and that wasn't on your
> list of how to differentiate a Japanese restaurant. It's basically
> fast food, you know. Real Japanese just like Real Chinese and Real
> Korean food that is exquisitely prepared in authentic environments are
> always notoriously expensive. I mean Yama's prices are okay but the
> wait for a table is expensive in itself.
>
> The thing is, even bad Japanese food owned by Japanese people is
> expensive. That's why I don't like to try new Japanese places owned by
> Japanese until someone recommends me. I once had to pay a dollar for
> some soy sauce packets. With Chinese/Korean places you know the food
> will be edible but it won't make a dent in your wallet. Besides
> Japanese food there is an even bigger explosion of Mexican themed
> takeout/restaurants that are owned by Chinese people. You would assume
> since Mexicans are the cheapest labor force in the states you would
> see them working in a Mexican restaurant but no, almost all Chinese. I
> see all these Chinese/Korean Japanese restaurants like little teriyaki
> boys franchises. I don't think Teriyaki boy is Japanese at all but
> it's portrayed to be. Does anyone think when biting into a taco bell
> burrito that it's authentic Mexican food. I hope I wasn't
> disrespecting Mexican culture when I bought that quesadilla and put
> mild picante sauce on it.
>
> I really love your website but I don't agree with your whole "Chinese
> people love red and most of THEM are cheap and exploitative and "the
> printing characteristics can tell you who is culturally behind It".
> The tone of your piece sounds like "Chinese/Korean people are tacky
> and vulgar" and "Japanese have style and wouldn't be so crass" and
> that's why I take umbrage.
>
> I'm Vietnamese and I can also definitely tell if it's a Chinese or
> Japanese owned restaurant. But you forgot the most important clue. The
> prepareres usually speak to each other in Japanese or Chinese. I think
> Chinese/Korean people are only following the American Business model.
> Today it's Japanese, tomorrow It's Indian (very Hot right now). But
> you have to give all us true gourmets credit that we can spot them and
> you know what? I still eat at taco bell even though it ain't Mexican.
>
> I should also delved more into "are the Chinese trying to pose as
> Japanese?" question. Because I don't think they are. As I wrote before
> they have opened a lot of Mexican takeout/restaurants and they clearly
> are not trying to pose as Mexicans. It's just that Japanese food is in
> vogue and it's simple supply and demand.
>
> And there is another issue I need to address which in my mind is the
> bigger problem: Chinoiserie and Japonism. The whole wonton font is
> really a western interpretation of Eastern culture. For some reason,
> the west likes to change eastern customs and integrate them into their
> own. If you ever order food in a Chinese restaurant and they put water
> chestnuts in it, it's not for eastern tastes but for western
> aesthetics. And some forms of sweet and sour pork have been totally
> modified (butchered) for the western (mid-western, bible belt,
> gun-toting?) diet. I think it's done to sell so called exotic foreign
> foods to the mainstream.
>
> I remember I once went to a Japanese restaurant with my friend and his
> younger brother who were Caucasians from the Midwest and his younger
> brother said non-jokingly "YOU eat Raw fish?" I laughed my ass off at
> his authentic ignorance. A person in Kansas will probably go to a
> Japanese restaurant in Kansas and probably ask for egg rolls. And,
> he'd probably get one. It's mascot atmospheres that scare me the most.
> The themed restaurants are the devil incarnate. Chuck E. cheese must
> be stopped cause you never know when they'll open a Charlie Chan's.
>
> In New York I noticed a lot of Japanese restaurants experimenting with
> new dishes. Like the dish called dynamite. I think it's absolutely
> disgusting but a lot of my Asian friends love the stuff. But getting
> back to the point, what happens if a western taste is acquired for
> dynamite? Does that dish become some sort of link towards assimilation
> of a culture or if it does not is it a question of genetics that I
> read somewhere where Asians have different tastes (sweet, sour,
> bitter) than other people so that when they introduce certain staples
> of their diet into western society that they must customize them to
> western tastes but at a loss of quality and distinctness.
>
> Even though I'm ragging on the west for trivializing a culture's food
> the East is also guilty and at times worse. When I was in Hong Kong
> some of the fast food chains served macaroni and cheese with eggs for
> breakfast, which is totally weird when you see the other things on the
> menus. I am pretty sure in Japan there are western themed restaurants
> with cowboys as waiters and a romanticized atmosphere of bull riding
> and living on the ranch. I also know that there are Nazi themed
> restaurants in Taiwan and Tokyo where the waiters are dressed like the
> SS! Is it sarcastic art or is it ignorance? Either way, I hear they
> are doing very well. In Thailand they have waiters dressed as
> SPIDERMAN who would serve you and have now moved on to being Neo from
> the matrix. So I guess culture assassination isn't just a western
> thing. It's universal.
> Sep-24-03 9:41P