Hi:

I'm having my wine cellar built now and the insulation contractor has
used 'FSK' foil-backed insulation in all stud bays. On the
interior-facing walls, the foil is on the outside of the studs with
foil tape ensuring that there's a seal. On the exterior facing wall,
they put the FSK foil into the stud bay and then placed fiberglass
batts into the bay. The FSK in the exterior facing wall is loose and
not contiguous from bay to bay. I've read that 6 mil poly vapor barrier
should be left loose in the bays running contigouously along the length
of the wall, with the batts placed in the stud bays after the vapor
barrier.

Should the insulation contractor remove the FSK on the exterior-facing
walls and put up a 6 mil vapor barrier? If so, thould the poly replace
the FSK foil, or be used in addition to the FSK?

Thanks,

Ken

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hi:
>
> I'm having my wine cellar built now and the insulation contractor has
> used 'FSK' foil-backed insulation in all stud bays. On the
> Should the insulation contractor remove the FSK on the exterior-facing
> walls and put up a 6 mil vapor barrier? If so, thould the poly replace
> the FSK foil, or be used in addition to the FSK?

Why do you want a vapor barrier?

> wrote in message
oups.com...

Good reference...

http://wineracks.vigilantinc.com/win...conditions.asp

I'm not sure I am following you at all. Wine cellar or not, the vapor
barrier goes to the living space side in PA and it should not be loose,
it has to seal for the most part.

You want to keep moisture out of the insulation and it usually gets
there from the living space, the heated side. I don't like fiberglass
insulation in a cellar here, I used high density Styrofoam board
instead. If it gets wet it won't rot. If this contractor has a good
reason to do this, I just don't follow it. Maybe they are trying to
channel moisture from the outside wall to the floor, but you have to
get rid of it too. I'm in Pittsburgh, we just assume any basement wall
will leak eventually, everything cracks at some point. We do interior
and exterior french drains now because of that.

Joe
wrote:
> Hi:
>
> I'm having my wine cellar built now and the insulation contractor has
> used 'FSK' foil-backed insulation in all stud bays. On the
> interior-facing walls, the foil is on the outside of the studs with
> foil tape ensuring that there's a seal. On the exterior facing wall,
> they put the FSK foil into the stud bay and then placed fiberglass
> batts into the bay. The FSK in the exterior facing wall is loose and
> not contiguous from bay to bay. I've read that 6 mil poly vapor barrier
> should be left loose in the bays running contigouously along the length
> of the wall, with the batts placed in the stud bays after the vapor
> barrier.
>
> Should the insulation contractor remove the FSK on the exterior-facing
> walls and put up a 6 mil vapor barrier? If so, thould the poly replace
> the FSK foil, or be used in addition to the FSK?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ken

Joe Sallustio wrote:
> I'm not sure I am following you at all. Wine cellar or not, the vapor
> barrier goes to the living space side in PA and it should not be loose,
> it has to seal for the most part.
>

The vapor barrier goes to the 'warm' side, which is the exterior wall.
The vapor barrier needs to be contiguous across the wall, without
staples/perforations soas not to allow condensation thru into the
insulation. By 'loose', I mean that the vapor barrier is draped into
the stud bays to make a seal across the wall, not cut and lined in each
individual bay. The contractor has placed the FSK foil in the
individual stud bays, which would seem to create gaps at the edges to
allow penetration of moisture.

The contractor says they've done many like this in the past and that
the FSK is a superior material to 6 mil poly. I'm willing to accept it
if I can get confirmation that it's an acceptable/superior substitute
method. But everything I've found on the Web indicates that the 6 mil
poly is the only route... which is what gives me concern with the
current implementation.

Thanks,

Ken


> You want to keep moisture out of the insulation and it usually gets
> there from the living space, the heated side. I don't like fiberglass
> insulation in a cellar here, I used high density Styrofoam board
> instead. If it gets wet it won't rot. If this contractor has a good
> reason to do this, I just don't follow it. Maybe they are trying to
> channel moisture from the outside wall to the floor, but you have to
> get rid of it too. I'm in Pittsburgh, we just assume any basement wall
> will leak eventually, everything cracks at some point. We do interior
> and exterior french drains now because of that.
>
> Joe
> wrote:
> > Hi:
> >
> > I'm having my wine cellar built now and the insulation contractor has
> > used 'FSK' foil-backed insulation in all stud bays. On the
> > interior-facing walls, the foil is on the outside of the studs with
> > foil tape ensuring that there's a seal. On the exterior facing wall,
> > they put the FSK foil into the stud bay and then placed fiberglass
> > batts into the bay. The FSK in the exterior facing wall is loose and
> > not contiguous from bay to bay. I've read that 6 mil poly vapor barrier
> > should be left loose in the bays running contigouously along the length
> > of the wall, with the batts placed in the stud bays after the vapor
> > barrier.
> >
> > Should the insulation contractor remove the FSK on the exterior-facing
> > walls and put up a 6 mil vapor barrier? If so, thould the poly replace
> > the FSK foil, or be used in addition to the FSK?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Ken

I think I follow you now. Does this mean they are putting up the wall
and 'pushing' the insulation into the bay; foil face first? If so, the
stud is still exposed so I think you are right; i wouldn't care for
that.

In Pittsburgh the living space is the warm side, so we do it the
opposite, which makes this work better. You push the insulation into
the cavity and staple the foil face to both studs, then do the next
one, stapling it in an overlap. I can't see them doing that unless
they push the wall up after building it on the floor which is certainly
do-able.

I'm an electronics guy- not a contractor though. That said, I built my
own addition from the ground up and all of it was inspected.

Joe

.. The contractor has placed the FSK foil in the
> individual stud bays, which would seem to create gaps at the edges to
> allow penetration of moisture.
>
> The contractor says they've done many like this in the past and that
> the FSK is a superior material to 6 mil poly. I'm willing to accept it
> if I can get confirmation that it's an acceptable/superior substitute
> method. But everything I've found on the Web indicates that the 6 mil
> poly is the only route... which is what gives me concern with the
> current implementation.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ken
>
>
> > You want to keep moisture out of the insulation and it usually gets
> > there from the living space, the heated side. I don't like fiberglass
> > insulation in a cellar here, I used high density Styrofoam board
> > instead. If it gets wet it won't rot. If this contractor has a good
> > reason to do this, I just don't follow it. Maybe they are trying to
> > channel moisture from the outside wall to the floor, but you have to
> > get rid of it too. I'm in Pittsburgh, we just assume any basement wall
> > will leak eventually, everything cracks at some point. We do interior
> > and exterior french drains now because of that.
> >
> > Joe
> > wrote:
> > > Hi:
> > >
> > > I'm having my wine cellar built now and the insulation contractor has
> > > used 'FSK' foil-backed insulation in all stud bays. On the
> > > interior-facing walls, the foil is on the outside of the studs with
> > > foil tape ensuring that there's a seal. On the exterior facing wall,
> > > they put the FSK foil into the stud bay and then placed fiberglass
> > > batts into the bay. The FSK in the exterior facing wall is loose and
> > > not contiguous from bay to bay. I've read that 6 mil poly vapor barrier
> > > should be left loose in the bays running contigouously along the length
> > > of the wall, with the batts placed in the stud bays after the vapor
> > > barrier.
> > >
> > > Should the insulation contractor remove the FSK on the exterior-facing
> > > walls and put up a 6 mil vapor barrier? If so, thould the poly replace
> > > the FSK foil, or be used in addition to the FSK?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Ken

Hey:

It sounds ok to me if I'm reading you right.

If the studs are completely encased in vapor barriers applied on both
the interior and exterior wall I would think they'd rot right before
your eyes.

However,it sounds like both vapor barriers ( insulation foil and fsk?)
are applied from the inside of the structure. The studs are not
covered on the exterior side with a vapor barrier and free to breath.
Right? That's good.

We use Tyvek here on the outside of the wall which is a more or less
one way vapor barrier, allows the wall to shed moisture, tries not to
let it back in.

Not sure if fsk is one-way vapor barrier or non permiable, but if the
studs are not covered up on the exterior, I'm not sure it matters.
Not a contractor so take it with a grain o' salt.


Take Care,
Steve noobie
Oregon





On 22 Aug 2006 04:25:37 -0700, wrote:


>
>> You want to keep moisture out of the insulation and it usually gets
>> there from the living space, the heated side. I don't like fiberglass
>> insulation in a cellar here, I used high density Styrofoam board
>> instead. If it gets wet it won't rot. If this contractor has a good
>> reason to do this, I just don't follow it. Maybe they are trying to
>> channel moisture from the outside wall to the floor, but you have to
>> get rid of it too. I'm in Pittsburgh, we just assume any basement wall
>> will leak eventually, everything cracks at some point. We do interior
>> and exterior french drains now because of that.
>>
>> Joe
>> wrote:
>> > Hi:
>> >
>> > I'm having my wine cellar built now and the insulation contractor has
>> > used 'FSK' foil-backed insulation in all stud bays. On the
>> > interior-facing walls, the foil is on the outside of the studs with
>> > foil tape ensuring that there's a seal. On the exterior facing wall,
>> > they put the FSK foil into the stud bay and then placed fiberglass
>> > batts into the bay. The FSK in the exterior facing wall is loose and
>> > not contiguous from bay to bay. I've read that 6 mil poly vapor barrier
>> > should be left loose in the bays running contigouously along the length
>> > of the wall, with the batts placed in the stud bays after the vapor
>> > barrier.
>> >
>> > Should the insulation contractor remove the FSK on the exterior-facing
>> > walls and put up a 6 mil vapor barrier? If so, thould the poly replace
>> > the FSK foil, or be used in addition to the FSK?
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > Ken

> Not sure if fsk is one-way vapor barrier or non permiable, but if the
> studs are not covered up on the exterior, I'm not sure it matters.


Steve,
FSK is Foil Scrim Kraft. It's that stuck on vapor barrier they use on
fiberglass insulation. At least I think that's what it is, I'm not a
contractor either...

I agree it has to breath, we get a lot of moisture here too.

Joe

Steve:

Thanks for the reply. The exterior basement wall that I'm concerned
about has 2x6 studs sheathed with OSB and I'd have to bet that there's
Tyvek wrap between the OSB and fiber cement siding.

Your reply gives me concern in that everything I've read online at
sites for wine racking & cellar construction indicate that the wall
needs a contiguous vapor barrier of 6 mil poly. If I can't wrap the
studs from the exterior, what I've read directs me to loosely drape the
stud bays with the 6 mil and then place the fiberglass batting in the
bays. Wondering if the combination of Tyvek on one side and 6 mil poly
on the other could result in the rot condition you mention?

I'm not sure what to do about this...

Ken


spud wrote:
> Hey:
>
> It sounds ok to me if I'm reading you right.
>
> If the studs are completely encased in vapor barriers applied on both
> the interior and exterior wall I would think they'd rot right before
> your eyes.
>
> However,it sounds like both vapor barriers ( insulation foil and fsk?)
> are applied from the inside of the structure. The studs are not
> covered on the exterior side with a vapor barrier and free to breath.
> Right? That's good.
>
> We use Tyvek here on the outside of the wall which is a more or less
> one way vapor barrier, allows the wall to shed moisture, tries not to
> let it back in.
>
> Not sure if fsk is one-way vapor barrier or non permiable, but if the
> studs are not covered up on the exterior, I'm not sure it matters.
> Not a contractor so take it with a grain o' salt.
>
>
> Take Care,
> Steve noobie
> Oregon
>
>
>
>
>
> On 22 Aug 2006 04:25:37 -0700, wrote:
>
>
> >
> >> You want to keep moisture out of the insulation and it usually gets
> >> there from the living space, the heated side. I don't like fiberglass
> >> insulation in a cellar here, I used high density Styrofoam board
> >> instead. If it gets wet it won't rot. If this contractor has a good
> >> reason to do this, I just don't follow it. Maybe they are trying to
> >> channel moisture from the outside wall to the floor, but you have to
> >> get rid of it too. I'm in Pittsburgh, we just assume any basement wall
> >> will leak eventually, everything cracks at some point. We do interior
> >> and exterior french drains now because of that.
> >>
> >> Joe
> >> wrote:
> >> > Hi:
> >> >
> >> > I'm having my wine cellar built now and the insulation contractor has
> >> > used 'FSK' foil-backed insulation in all stud bays. On the
> >> > interior-facing walls, the foil is on the outside of the studs with
> >> > foil tape ensuring that there's a seal. On the exterior facing wall,
> >> > they put the FSK foil into the stud bay and then placed fiberglass
> >> > batts into the bay. The FSK in the exterior facing wall is loose and
> >> > not contiguous from bay to bay. I've read that 6 mil poly vapor barrier
> >> > should be left loose in the bays running contigouously along the length
> >> > of the wall, with the batts placed in the stud bays after the vapor
> >> > barrier.
> >> >
> >> > Should the insulation contractor remove the FSK on the exterior-facing
> >> > walls and put up a 6 mil vapor barrier? If so, thould the poly replace
> >> > the FSK foil, or be used in addition to the FSK?
> >> >
> >> > Thanks,
> >> >
> >> > Ken

Ken:

Sounds all right.

No, Tyvek is permiable, more or less one way. Even with the siding,
OSB and Tyvek, the wall can dry out from the outside. The objective of
Tyvek is to let water vapor out but not in. You're good.

Re-reading your original post, the outside facing fsk is not
continous, but 'draped' in the bays. The studs have opporutunity to
breath. Ok here.

The interior facing fsk is sealed, or taped up along the studs,
between bats to be a continous vapor barrier for the room vs. your
question of using 6mil poly draped in the bays prior to installing the
insulation. Either technique serves the same goal, to keep outside
water vapor from entering the living space.

I think your cool Ken. I would not press for the 6mil and let it go
with the fsk as is.

2 things. You want the wall to be able to dry out sometime so the
studding must have acess to the outside. You're good here. And, you
want to keep any outside water vapor from entering your living space.
You're good here too.

Does that make sense?

steve noobie
Oregon





On 24 Aug 2006 02:03:53 -0700, wrote:

>Steve:
>
>Thanks for the reply. The exterior basement wall that I'm concerned
>about has 2x6 studs sheathed with OSB and I'd have to bet that there's
>Tyvek wrap between the OSB and fiber cement siding.
>
>Your reply gives me concern in that everything I've read online at
>sites for wine racking & cellar construction indicate that the wall
>needs a contiguous vapor barrier of 6 mil poly. If I can't wrap the
>studs from the exterior, what I've read directs me to loosely drape the
>stud bays with the 6 mil and then place the fiberglass batting in the
>bays. Wondering if the combination of Tyvek on one side and 6 mil poly
>on the other could result in the rot condition you mention?
>
>I'm not sure what to do about this...
>
>Ken
>
>
>spud wrote:
>> Hey:
>>
>> It sounds ok to me if I'm reading you right.
>>
>> If the studs are completely encased in vapor barriers applied on both
>> the interior and exterior wall I would think they'd rot right before
>> your eyes.
>>
>> However,it sounds like both vapor barriers ( insulation foil and fsk?)
>> are applied from the inside of the structure. The studs are not
>> covered on the exterior side with a vapor barrier and free to breath.
>> Right? That's good.
>>
>> We use Tyvek here on the outside of the wall which is a more or less
>> one way vapor barrier, allows the wall to shed moisture, tries not to
>> let it back in.
>>
>> Not sure if fsk is one-way vapor barrier or non permiable, but if the
>> studs are not covered up on the exterior, I'm not sure it matters.
>> Not a contractor so take it with a grain o' salt.
>>
>>
>> Take Care,
>> Steve noobie
>> Oregon
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 22 Aug 2006 04:25:37 -0700, wrote:
>>
>>
>> >
>> >> You want to keep moisture out of the insulation and it usually gets
>> >> there from the living space, the heated side. I don't like fiberglass
>> >> insulation in a cellar here, I used high density Styrofoam board
>> >> instead. If it gets wet it won't rot. If this contractor has a good
>> >> reason to do this, I just don't follow it. Maybe they are trying to
>> >> channel moisture from the outside wall to the floor, but you have to
>> >> get rid of it too. I'm in Pittsburgh, we just assume any basement wall
>> >> will leak eventually, everything cracks at some point. We do interior
>> >> and exterior french drains now because of that.
>> >>
>> >> Joe
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > Hi:
>> >> >
>> >> > I'm having my wine cellar built now and the insulation contractor has
>> >> > used 'FSK' foil-backed insulation in all stud bays. On the
>> >> > interior-facing walls, the foil is on the outside of the studs with
>> >> > foil tape ensuring that there's a seal. On the exterior facing wall,
>> >> > they put the FSK foil into the stud bay and then placed fiberglass
>> >> > batts into the bay. The FSK in the exterior facing wall is loose and
>> >> > not contiguous from bay to bay. I've read that 6 mil poly vapor barrier
>> >> > should be left loose in the bays running contigouously along the length
>> >> > of the wall, with the batts placed in the stud bays after the vapor
>> >> > barrier.
>> >> >
>> >> > Should the insulation contractor remove the FSK on the exterior-facing
>> >> > walls and put up a 6 mil vapor barrier? If so, thould the poly replace
>> >> > the FSK foil, or be used in addition to the FSK?
>> >> >
>> >> > Thanks,
>> >> >
>> >> > Ken

Thanks, Steve. I had the contractor come back and replace the FSK in
the exterior-facing wall with the 6 mil poly, so I should be good to
go. Thanks much for your advice, much appreciated.

Best,

Ken

spud wrote:
> Ken:
>
> Sounds all right.
>
> No, Tyvek is permiable, more or less one way. Even with the siding,
> OSB and Tyvek, the wall can dry out from the outside. The objective of
> Tyvek is to let water vapor out but not in. You're good.
>
> Re-reading your original post, the outside facing fsk is not
> continous, but 'draped' in the bays. The studs have opporutunity to
> breath. Ok here.
>
> The interior facing fsk is sealed, or taped up along the studs,
> between bats to be a continous vapor barrier for the room vs. your
> question of using 6mil poly draped in the bays prior to installing the
> insulation. Either technique serves the same goal, to keep outside
> water vapor from entering the living space.
>
> I think your cool Ken. I would not press for the 6mil and let it go
> with the fsk as is.
>
> 2 things. You want the wall to be able to dry out sometime so the
> studding must have acess to the outside. You're good here. And, you
> want to keep any outside water vapor from entering your living space.
> You're good here too.
>
> Does that make sense?
>
> steve noobie
> Oregon
>
>
>
>
>
> On 24 Aug 2006 02:03:53 -0700, wrote:
>
> >Steve:
> >
> >Thanks for the reply. The exterior basement wall that I'm concerned
> >about has 2x6 studs sheathed with OSB and I'd have to bet that there's
> >Tyvek wrap between the OSB and fiber cement siding.
> >
> >Your reply gives me concern in that everything I've read online at
> >sites for wine racking & cellar construction indicate that the wall
> >needs a contiguous vapor barrier of 6 mil poly. If I can't wrap the
> >studs from the exterior, what I've read directs me to loosely drape the
> >stud bays with the 6 mil and then place the fiberglass batting in the
> >bays. Wondering if the combination of Tyvek on one side and 6 mil poly
> >on the other could result in the rot condition you mention?
> >
> >I'm not sure what to do about this...
> >
> >Ken
> >
> >
> >spud wrote:
> >> Hey:
> >>
> >> It sounds ok to me if I'm reading you right.
> >>
> >> If the studs are completely encased in vapor barriers applied on both
> >> the interior and exterior wall I would think they'd rot right before
> >> your eyes.
> >>
> >> However,it sounds like both vapor barriers ( insulation foil and fsk?)
> >> are applied from the inside of the structure. The studs are not
> >> covered on the exterior side with a vapor barrier and free to breath.
> >> Right? That's good.
> >>
> >> We use Tyvek here on the outside of the wall which is a more or less
> >> one way vapor barrier, allows the wall to shed moisture, tries not to
> >> let it back in.
> >>
> >> Not sure if fsk is one-way vapor barrier or non permiable, but if the
> >> studs are not covered up on the exterior, I'm not sure it matters.
> >> Not a contractor so take it with a grain o' salt.
> >>
> >>
> >> Take Care,
> >> Steve noobie
> >> Oregon
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 22 Aug 2006 04:25:37 -0700, wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> >
> >> >> You want to keep moisture out of the insulation and it usually gets
> >> >> there from the living space, the heated side. I don't like fiberglass
> >> >> insulation in a cellar here, I used high density Styrofoam board
> >> >> instead. If it gets wet it won't rot. If this contractor has a good
> >> >> reason to do this, I just don't follow it. Maybe they are trying to
> >> >> channel moisture from the outside wall to the floor, but you have to
> >> >> get rid of it too. I'm in Pittsburgh, we just assume any basement wall
> >> >> will leak eventually, everything cracks at some point. We do interior
> >> >> and exterior french drains now because of that.
> >> >>
> >> >> Joe
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> > Hi:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I'm having my wine cellar built now and the insulation contractor has
> >> >> > used 'FSK' foil-backed insulation in all stud bays. On the
> >> >> > interior-facing walls, the foil is on the outside of the studs with
> >> >> > foil tape ensuring that there's a seal. On the exterior facing wall,
> >> >> > they put the FSK foil into the stud bay and then placed fiberglass
> >> >> > batts into the bay. The FSK in the exterior facing wall is loose and
> >> >> > not contiguous from bay to bay. I've read that 6 mil poly vapor barrier
> >> >> > should be left loose in the bays running contigouously along the length
> >> >> > of the wall, with the batts placed in the stud bays after the vapor
> >> >> > barrier.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Should the insulation contractor remove the FSK on the exterior-facing
> >> >> > walls and put up a 6 mil vapor barrier? If so, thould the poly replace
> >> >> > the FSK foil, or be used in addition to the FSK?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Thanks,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Ken

Ken,
Is this wall above ground? If the exterior is OSB I'm assuming it is.
I'm not sure how this wall will breath with a vapor barrier on the
outside and foiled faced insulation on the inside unless there is an
area in between that I dont follow. What area of the country are you
in?

Joe
wrote:
> Thanks, Steve. I had the contractor come back and replace the FSK in
> the exterior-facing wall with the 6 mil poly, so I should be good to
> go. Thanks much for your advice, much appreciated.
>
> Best,
>

Hi Joe:

I think it's draped and stapled inside the bay, installed from the
living space. So the studs aren't covered on the exterior facing
edge.

steve noobie
Oregon


On 25 Aug 2006 13:55:38 -0700, "Joe Sallustio" >
wrote:

>Ken,
>Is this wall above ground? If the exterior is OSB I'm assuming it is.
>I'm not sure how this wall will breath with a vapor barrier on the
>outside and foiled faced insulation on the inside unless there is an
>area in between that I dont follow. What area of the country are you
>in?
>
>Joe
wrote:
>> Thanks, Steve. I had the contractor come back and replace the FSK in
>> the exterior-facing wall with the 6 mil poly, so I should be good to
>> go. Thanks much for your advice, much appreciated.
>>
>> Best,
>>

Thanks Steve, I just didn't follow it correctly. Sounds good and it's
cheap insurance.

Joe


spud wrote:
> Hi Joe:
>
> I think it's draped and stapled inside the bay, installed from the
> living space. So the studs aren't covered on the exterior facing
> edge.
>
> steve noobie
> Oregon
>
>
> On 25 Aug 2006 13:55:38 -0700, "Joe Sallustio" >
> wrote:
>
> >Ken,
> >Is this wall above ground? If the exterior is OSB I'm assuming it is.
> >I'm not sure how this wall will breath with a vapor barrier on the
> >outside and foiled faced insulation on the inside unless there is an
> >area in between that I dont follow. What area of the country are you
> >in?
> >
> >Joe
> wrote:
> >> Thanks, Steve. I had the contractor come back and replace the FSK in
> >> the exterior-facing wall with the 6 mil poly, so I should be good to
> >> go. Thanks much for your advice, much appreciated.
> >>
> >> Best,
> >>