Yesterday I drove 1 1/2 hours to get juice, but came home empty when I read
the following numbers:

Isabella Blackberry: TA .98, pH 3.2

Diamond: TA .85, pH 3.0

I am asking if I was overly-cautious, and if I should consider going back to
pick up this juice. Will cold-stabilization make this drinkable?

Thanks all,
Ken

I would not be concerned with those values, especially the Diamond. I
am making Diamond now. My TA and pH were reported to be 0.92% an 3.0
but when I measured they were 0.79% and 2.75 pH. (This was from
Walkers in Forestville NY; keep in mind they keep this cold so the
values they state may be a bit higher than what you end up with.) I use
Lalvin 71B since consumes some malic acid naturally.

Both are often made sweet so higher acid is not an issue. If you are
considering making them dry you may have to either ameliorate or
deacidify. I can't imagine the Diamond dry; it's not foxy like Concord
but it's not a vinifera either. It's a great grape nontheless; I blend
it into Central Valley grapes that lack character at times.

I have no experience with blackberry; I can tell you it's dominant acid
is citric and 1 to 1.5% TA is considered normal. Cold stabilization
only affects tartaric, I can't say it would do anything for this but it
may not be necessary. Sugar covers a multitude of sins...

Joe


Ken Anderson wrote:
> Yesterday I drove 1 1/2 hours to get juice, but came home empty when I read
> the following numbers:
>
> Isabella Blackberry: TA .98, pH 3.2
>
> Diamond: TA .85, pH 3.0
>
> I am asking if I was overly-cautious, and if I should consider going back to
> pick up this juice. Will cold-stabilization make this drinkable?
>
> Thanks all,
> Ken

Thanks Joe. This juice is indeed from Walker's. Their website speaks
glowingly of the Diamond and Isabella Blackberry wines. I'm mostly an
all-grain brewer, but am going to dabble in winemaking again this year. I've
purchased Wyeast Chablis and Pasteur Red already, so I'd better find some
juice for it!
Ken

"Joe Sallustio" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I would not be concerned with those values, especially the Diamond. I
> am making Diamond now. My TA and pH were reported to be 0.92% an 3.0
> but when I measured they were 0.79% and 2.75 pH. (This was from
> Walkers in Forestville NY; keep in mind they keep this cold so the
> values they state may be a bit higher than what you end up with.) I use
> Lalvin 71B since consumes some malic acid naturally.
>
> Both are often made sweet so higher acid is not an issue. If you are
> considering making them dry you may have to either ameliorate or
> deacidify. I can't imagine the Diamond dry; it's not foxy like Concord
> but it's not a vinifera either. It's a great grape nontheless; I blend
> it into Central Valley grapes that lack character at times.
>
> I have no experience with blackberry; I can tell you it's dominant acid
> is citric and 1 to 1.5% TA is considered normal. Cold stabilization
> only affects tartaric, I can't say it would do anything for this but it
> may not be necessary. Sugar covers a multitude of sins...
>
> Joe
>
>
> Ken Anderson wrote:
> > Yesterday I drove 1 1/2 hours to get juice, but came home empty when I
read
> > the following numbers:
> >
> > Isabella Blackberry: TA .98, pH 3.2
> >
> > Diamond: TA .85, pH 3.0
> >
> > I am asking if I was overly-cautious, and if I should consider going back
to
> > pick up this juice. Will cold-stabilization make this drinkable?
> >
> > Thanks all,
> > Ken
>

Ken,
They keep the juice very cold at Walkers, those values they print on
the wall tend to drop. (At least the grape wines, the berry seems in
the ballpark already.)

The Diamond makes a great sweet wine, I make it often. If you want to
try something dry you may want to consider the Traminette too.

I dabble in beermaking; I will try whole grain soon.

Joe

`I believe the dominant acid found in blackberries is malic. I took a
quick look at blackberries in J. J. Berry, First Steps in Winemaking
and also go to Jack Keller's web site and look at
http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/acid.asp. According to this 20 to 30
percent of the malic acid is removed during fermentation. Aubrey

`I believe the dominant acid found in blackberries is malic. I took a
quick look at blackberries in J. J. Berry, First Steps in Winemaking
and also go to Jack Keller's web site and look at
http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/acid.asp. According to this 20 to 30
percent of the malic acid is removed during fermentation. Aubrey

> Isabella Blackberry: TA .98, pH 3.2
> I am asking if I was overly-cautious, and if I should consider going back to
> pick up this juice. Will cold-stabilization make this drinkable?

TA's around 10 g/l (1%) are typical for blackberries, as Joe notes.
Blackberries are also typically malic acid dominant (though this does
depend on variety, climate etc). Cold stabilisation won't do much for
this kind of wine. You will have to use other strategies if you're
intending to make a drier wine (e.g., chemical deacification, MLF,
malic-eating yeast, dilution/ameleoration etc).


> Jack Keller's web site and look at http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/acid.asp.
> According to this 20 to 30 percent of the malic acid is removed during fermentation
Jack's site: "One way to do this [reduce malic] is to subject it [the
must] to fermentation, as 20-30% of the harvested malic is respired
during fermentation."

This sentance is very misleading as a it appears in Jack's text - and
in many/most cases would be plain wrong. The reduction of malic acid
during fermentation is highly dependent on multiple conditions (e.g.
presence of MLB, presence of Lactobacillus, yeast strain, etc). It is
common to see TAs *rise*, not decreae, during fermentation in
low/non-tartaric musts (such as blackberry).

Ben

Improved Winemaking
http://members.tripod.com/~BRotter/

I got the citric reference from a Penn State Winemaking book, it's not
the only mistake it has in it if malic is dominant. I use Lalvin 71B
yeasts on higher acid musts because it has a tendency to consume malic
per the Lallemand website. Maybe that is what Jack was getting at.

Here is the link:

http://www.lallemandwine.us/products/yeast_strains.php

Joe