I like having an excuse to dig a big hole in my yard every couple of
years, so now that I have started making wine and running into
competition for space in our small house, I need a cellar to store
bottles and carboys and such.

In thinking how best to retain the georgia red clay walls, which don't
need much, I considered a honeycomb of 4"Diam x 12"L pvc pipes. Could I
store my bottled wine in the cells? Would humidity in these cells be
problematic? Does anyone know a source for terra cotta drainage pipe to
use instead?

Thanks for your opinions.

"Randall MacInnes" > wrote in message
.. .
> I like having an excuse to dig a big hole in my yard every couple of
> years

Freud had something to say about people like you... ;-)

> In thinking how best to retain the georgia red clay walls, which don't
> need much, I considered a honeycomb of 4"Diam x 12"L pvc pipes. Could I
> store my bottled wine in the cells? Would humidity in these cells be
> problematic? Does anyone know a source for terra cotta drainage pipe to
> use instead?

The soil here in the Willamette Valley, OR is almost identical red clay (or
so I hear, I've never seen yours, but ours is red, solid, and deep).
Anyway, the moisture penetration is poor, so you may not need to worry about
humidy. The clay is so solid I've dug it out and thrown coffee cups on a
wheel with it, using a bit of ball clay to add plasticity.

I keep my wine in a wooden cabinet attached to a wall of the foundation
under our house in a half-basement. It keeps fine and varies maybe 20F in
temp at most from winter to summer, from 40F to 60F.

--arne

Huh?

Pittsburgh is one big lump of clay and we have water infiltration
issues galore, it has to go somewhere. Most of our foundations are 8
to 12 inch cement block with waterproofing on the outside and french
drains on both the inside and outside in new construction. We usually
fill the ouside perimeter with either gravel or crushed limestone to
get the water away from the walls, we backfill to about 1 foot from
the surface. I would never enter a hole over 6 feet deep without
really well built walls, when they collapse it's a really bad day.

High humidity can cause mold to grow on the outside of a real cork but
it just looks bad, it's not an issue if it's a good cork. That's why
they used to use lead capsules, it would cover the cork and it did not
corrode since the lead was coated too.
Joe

Joe Sallustio wrote:

> Huh?
>
> Pittsburgh is one big lump of clay and we have water infiltration
> issues galore, it has to go somewhere. Most of our foundations are 8
> to 12 inch cement block with waterproofing on the outside and french
> drains on both the inside and outside in new construction. We usually
> fill the ouside perimeter with either gravel or crushed limestone to
> get the water away from the walls, we backfill to about 1 foot from
> the surface. I would never enter a hole over 6 feet deep without
> really well built walls, when they collapse it's a really bad day.
>
> High humidity can cause mold to grow on the outside of a real cork but
> it just looks bad, it's not an issue if it's a good cork. That's why
> they used to use lead capsules, it would cover the cork and it did not
> corrode since the lead was coated too.
> Joe

This is why I wax my bottled wine necks. If the wax is at the right
temperature when applied, it can be peeled off easily and recycled.

Opps. Forgot about that one, it looks good too.

Joe

Could you go into some detail regarding waxing instead of capsules?
Type of wax, temperatures, etc.

I ask because I live in Thailand and wine making supplies are scarce
here, as well as being expensive and perhaps waxing would save a bit.


On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 13:44:06 -0400, "Paul E. Lehmann"
> wrote:

>Joe Sallustio wrote:
>
>> Huh?
>>
>> Pittsburgh is one big lump of clay and we have water infiltration
>> issues galore, it has to go somewhere. Most of our foundations are 8
- snipped -
>> Joe
>
>This is why I wax my bottled wine necks. If the wax is at the right
>temperature when applied, it can be peeled off easily and recycled.

Cheers,

Anon
(Bangkok, Thailand)

Anon wrote:

>
> Could you go into some detail regarding waxing instead of capsules?
> Type of wax, temperatures, etc.
>
> I ask because I live in Thailand and wine making supplies are scarce
> here, as well as being expensive and perhaps waxing would save a bit.

I played with this idea a bit, it'd be nice to press signet into the
wax, but all I did was melt some parrafin wax, add some crayons for
colour, and dripped it onto the top of the bottle, it looked kind of
nice.

--
Charles Horslin
Kitchener/St.Catharines, ON

Charles H wrote:
> Anon wrote:
>
>
>>Could you go into some detail regarding waxing instead of capsules?
>>Type of wax, temperatures, etc.
>>
>>I ask because I live in Thailand and wine making supplies are scarce
>>here, as well as being expensive and perhaps waxing would save a bit.
>
>
> I played with this idea a bit, it'd be nice to press signet into the
> wax, but all I did was melt some parrafin wax, add some crayons for
> colour, and dripped it onto the top of the bottle, it looked kind of
> nice.
>

You can order a high quality wax seal at Jason Townsend (a repro company
catering to re-enactors) for about $12.50+shipping. It comes with 2
sticks of sealing wax, but parafin and crayola gives you a wider pallete.

Opps. Forgot about that one, it looks good too.

Joe

Could you go into some detail regarding waxing instead of capsules?
Type of wax, temperatures, etc.

I ask because I live in Thailand and wine making supplies are scarce
here, as well as being expensive and perhaps waxing would save a bit.


On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 13:44:06 -0400, "Paul E. Lehmann"
> wrote:

>Joe Sallustio wrote:
>
>> Huh?
>>
>> Pittsburgh is one big lump of clay and we have water infiltration
>> issues galore, it has to go somewhere. Most of our foundations are 8
- snipped -
>> Joe
>
>This is why I wax my bottled wine necks. If the wax is at the right
>temperature when applied, it can be peeled off easily and recycled.

Cheers,

Anon
(Bangkok, Thailand)

Joe Sallustio wrote:
> Huh?
>
> Pittsburgh is one big lump of clay and we have water infiltration
> issues galore, it has to go somewhere. Most of our foundations are 8
> to 12 inch cement block with waterproofing on the outside and french
> drains on both the inside and outside in new construction. We usually
> fill the ouside perimeter with either gravel or crushed limestone to
> get the water away from the walls, we backfill to about 1 foot from
> the surface. I would never enter a hole over 6 feet deep without
> really well built walls, when they collapse it's a really bad day.
>
> High humidity can cause mold to grow on the outside of a real cork but
> it just looks bad, it's not an issue if it's a good cork. That's why
> they used to use lead capsules, it would cover the cork and it did not
> corrode since the lead was coated too.
> Joe
>

I guess our clay must be different from yours. I know of multiple
100yo+ bare clay root cellars 6-8' deep that are yet to cave in. The
oldest of these was forgotten in the 1910's when the new house was built
over it and rediscovered in 1984 when my father fell through the floor
above this 8' cubed pit. Had he not caught a solid beam with his arms,
he'd have broken a leg or worse. I remember having to walk out across
the floor to my dad with a rope, since I weighed 60lbs and his brother
weighed 290lbs. When the floor was replaced, a trap door was
reinstalled and a new insulated roof was put over the pit. My great
uncle still uses that root cellar for potatoes and the like. Maybe
cave-ins are just a matter of time in all these cases, but I find it
doubtful.

Of course, drainage is mucho important to keeping all those cellars open
(as is keeping the cellar small and built underneath a much larger
structure with its own drains as well) but I didn't think r.c.w was the
appropriate venue for the subject.

Thanks for the tips on avoiding moldy corks. I'd rather just keep my
humidity in the ccrrect range, but if that becomes impossible, I will
look to wax sealing.

Must be. It happens all the time up here, maybe we more get more water
quicker. We shore up anything deeper than waist deep as a general rule
in construction up here. This was in our paper on the 5th:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05095/483075.stm

The wax works well. I looked in a couple references to see what the RH
range should be but didn't see anything specific, the only one that
talked about humidity said a musty smell is an issue as it may get
through a cork to the wine.

Joe


>
> I guess our clay must be different from yours. I know of multiple
> 100yo+ bare clay root cellars 6-8' deep that are yet to cave in.
>
> Thanks for the tips on avoiding moldy corks. I'd rather just keep my

> humidity in the ccrrect range, but if that becomes impossible, I will

> look to wax sealing.

Joe Sallustio wrote:
> Must be. It happens all the time up here, maybe we more get more water
> quicker. We shore up anything deeper than waist deep as a general rule
> in construction up here. This was in our paper on the 5th:
>
> http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05095/483075.stm

My prayers are with these working men as they recover. That must be a
dreadful situation in which to find one's self.

I am no geologist, but as I understand it, the exact structure of clay
is extremely important to its porousness and other related
characteristics. And I suppose I should also point out that I do not
know that these cellars were not all lined with wooden shoring
originally, but they have been in use, in most cases for at least two
generations, without any shoring at all. But as I pointed out, each and
every one is also less than 100sq ft and dug underneath a house 5-10
times that area.

And further, I appreciate you acceptng disagreement like a gentleman and
not a buffoon. I hope you will understand that one never knows how
anyone will respond to differences on USENET and so hesitation sets in
before hitting the send button.

If I were perfect I would get paid a lot more at work. ) The older
you get the more your realize how little you can learn in the time we
are here.

I was responsible for worker safety during a construction project,
that's the only reason I knew anything about collapses. OSHA has a
rule that requires shoring a ditch at anything over 5 feet as I recall.
If the hole is very wide a collapse won't bury the occupant
completely, so there is some judgement applied there too; we don't
shore up a foundation hole as a rule. I just didn't want you to get
hurt, sorry if it came off testy.

This seems to be an atypical usenet group, we are rather civilized
compared to some.

Joe

Joe Sallustio wrote:
> Must be. It happens all the time up here, maybe we more get more water
> quicker. We shore up anything deeper than waist deep as a general rule
> in construction up here. This was in our paper on the 5th:
>
> http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05095/483075.stm

My prayers are with these working men as they recover. That must be a
dreadful situation in which to find one's self.

I am no geologist, but as I understand it, the exact structure of clay
is extremely important to its porousness and other related
characteristics. And I suppose I should also point out that I do not
know that these cellars were not all lined with wooden shoring
originally, but they have been in use, in most cases for at least two
generations, without any shoring at all. But as I pointed out, each and
every one is also less than 100sq ft and dug underneath a house 5-10
times that area.

And further, I appreciate you acceptng disagreement like a gentleman and
not a buffoon. I hope you will understand that one never knows how
anyone will respond to differences on USENET and so hesitation sets in
before hitting the send button.

Joe Sallustio wrote:

> Huh?
>
> Pittsburgh is one big lump of clay and we have water infiltration
> issues galore, it has to go somewhere. Most of our foundations are 8
> to 12 inch cement block with waterproofing on the outside and french
> drains on both the inside and outside in new construction. We usually
> fill the ouside perimeter with either gravel or crushed limestone to
> get the water away from the walls, we backfill to about 1 foot from
> the surface. I would never enter a hole over 6 feet deep without
> really well built walls, when they collapse it's a really bad day.
>
> High humidity can cause mold to grow on the outside of a real cork but
> it just looks bad, it's not an issue if it's a good cork. That's why
> they used to use lead capsules, it would cover the cork and it did not
> corrode since the lead was coated too.
> Joe

This is why I wax my bottled wine necks. If the wax is at the right
temperature when applied, it can be peeled off easily and recycled.

Joe Sallustio wrote:
> Huh?
>
> Pittsburgh is one big lump of clay and we have water infiltration
> issues galore, it has to go somewhere. Most of our foundations are 8
> to 12 inch cement block with waterproofing on the outside and french
> drains on both the inside and outside in new construction. We usually
> fill the ouside perimeter with either gravel or crushed limestone to
> get the water away from the walls, we backfill to about 1 foot from
> the surface. I would never enter a hole over 6 feet deep without
> really well built walls, when they collapse it's a really bad day.
>
> High humidity can cause mold to grow on the outside of a real cork but
> it just looks bad, it's not an issue if it's a good cork. That's why
> they used to use lead capsules, it would cover the cork and it did not
> corrode since the lead was coated too.
> Joe
>

I guess our clay must be different from yours. I know of multiple
100yo+ bare clay root cellars 6-8' deep that are yet to cave in. The
oldest of these was forgotten in the 1910's when the new house was built
over it and rediscovered in 1984 when my father fell through the floor
above this 8' cubed pit. Had he not caught a solid beam with his arms,
he'd have broken a leg or worse. I remember having to walk out across
the floor to my dad with a rope, since I weighed 60lbs and his brother
weighed 290lbs. When the floor was replaced, a trap door was
reinstalled and a new insulated roof was put over the pit. My great
uncle still uses that root cellar for potatoes and the like. Maybe
cave-ins are just a matter of time in all these cases, but I find it
doubtful.

Of course, drainage is mucho important to keeping all those cellars open
(as is keeping the cellar small and built underneath a much larger
structure with its own drains as well) but I didn't think r.c.w was the
appropriate venue for the subject.

Thanks for the tips on avoiding moldy corks. I'd rather just keep my
humidity in the ccrrect range, but if that becomes impossible, I will
look to wax sealing.

"Randall MacInnes" > wrote in message
.. .
> I like having an excuse to dig a big hole in my yard every couple of
> years

Freud had something to say about people like you... ;-)

> In thinking how best to retain the georgia red clay walls, which don't
> need much, I considered a honeycomb of 4"Diam x 12"L pvc pipes. Could I
> store my bottled wine in the cells? Would humidity in these cells be
> problematic? Does anyone know a source for terra cotta drainage pipe to
> use instead?

The soil here in the Willamette Valley, OR is almost identical red clay (or
so I hear, I've never seen yours, but ours is red, solid, and deep).
Anyway, the moisture penetration is poor, so you may not need to worry about
humidy. The clay is so solid I've dug it out and thrown coffee cups on a
wheel with it, using a bit of ball clay to add plasticity.

I keep my wine in a wooden cabinet attached to a wall of the foundation
under our house in a half-basement. It keeps fine and varies maybe 20F in
temp at most from winter to summer, from 40F to 60F.

--arne