Hi,

I'm new to wine making and I was wondering if folks could recommend a
sanitization product. I mainly need to keep fermentation vessels, a siphon,
and bottles free from spoiling microorganisms. I am making mostly small
batches a gallon or so at a time, using pasteurized juice (so I don't need
to kill off microbes in the must).

There are a number of products on the market and I'm not sure which to use.
Some of them advertise as "no rinse". Does that mean some other products
require a rinse? In that case what do you rinse with? Tap water? If that
were true why bother sanitizing at all?

Also I bought some stoppers with holes for airlocks but the stoppers smell
strongly of rubber and I don't want that smell to go into the wine. Could
that happen? Did I buy the wrong thing?


Thanks,

David

David wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm new to wine making and I was wondering if folks could recommend a
> sanitization product. I mainly need to keep fermentation vessels, a siphon,
> and bottles free from spoiling microorganisms. I am making mostly small
> batches a gallon or so at a time, using pasteurized juice (so I don't need
> to kill off microbes in the must).
>
> There are a number of products on the market and I'm not sure which to use.
> Some of them advertise as "no rinse". Does that mean some other products
> require a rinse? In that case what do you rinse with? Tap water? If that
> were true why bother sanitizing at all?
>
> Also I bought some stoppers with holes for airlocks but the stoppers smell
> strongly of rubber and I don't want that smell to go into the wine. Could
> that happen? Did I buy the wrong thing?

I use 50g powdered KMS(potssium metabisulphite) in 4 litres of boiling
water for sanitizing everything. You can rinse with ditilled water
afterwards if you desire.

The most common sanitizer is sodium metabiosulfite or potassium
metabiosulfite. Sodium meta is cheaper and a great sanitizer. It should
not be used in the wine. For that use the Potassium meta, so it is a good
idea to have both. The instructions for mixing a sanitizing solution is
given on the package when you get it. You should mix in some citric acid
when you make the solution. This will enhance the action and I think it
makes it keep longer. A solution should be good for several months and then
needs to be used fresh. When you clean your carboys and are going to store
them, pour a few tablespoons in each and seal it with plastic wrap. It will
be sanitized when you need it 6 months or a year later.

If your rubber bungs smell of rubber, soak them in the solution for a few
days and they will probably loose the smell. They should not be in contact
with the wine anyway but I agree that you should get rid of the smell before
use.

Ray

"David" > wrote in message
...
> Hi,
>
> I'm new to wine making and I was wondering if folks could recommend a
> sanitization product. I mainly need to keep fermentation vessels, a
> siphon,
> and bottles free from spoiling microorganisms. I am making mostly small
> batches a gallon or so at a time, using pasteurized juice (so I don't need
> to kill off microbes in the must).
>
> There are a number of products on the market and I'm not sure which to
> use.
> Some of them advertise as "no rinse". Does that mean some other products
> require a rinse? In that case what do you rinse with? Tap water? If that
> were true why bother sanitizing at all?
>
> Also I bought some stoppers with holes for airlocks but the stoppers smell
> strongly of rubber and I don't want that smell to go into the wine. Could
> that happen? Did I buy the wrong thing?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> David
>
>
>

"David" > wrote in message
...
> Hi,
>
> In that case what do you rinse with? Tap water? If that
> were true why bother sanitizing at all?
>

There seems to be a popular misconception that tap water is not
"sanitary". Unless you are getting your water untreated from a well
in the middle of a cow pasture or something, it's sanitary enough for
all ordinary purposes. The advantage of "no-rinse" sanitizers is
convenience.

If you don't believe me, mix some tapwater with a small amount of malt
extract that's been separate boiled in some water (to sanitize
anything in the extract, not the water). Bottle it and wait for it to
spoil. You will be waiting a long time I think. I actually tried
this once. After two weeks nothing had happened.

In my experience, the primary source of microbial contamination is
inadequate physical cleaning. A drop of must or wort is left inside
some piece of equipment and grows something, which later gets
transferred to your wine or beer. Sanitizers are no substitute for
elbow grease.

--arne

> There seems to be a popular misconception that tap water is not
> "sanitary". Unless you are getting your water untreated from a well
> in the middle of a cow pasture or something, it's sanitary enough for
> all ordinary purposes. The advantage of "no-rinse" sanitizers is
> convenience.
>
> If you don't believe me, mix some tapwater with a small amount of malt
> extract that's been separate boiled in some water (to sanitize
> anything in the extract, not the water). Bottle it and wait for it to
> spoil. You will be waiting a long time I think. I actually tried
> this once. After two weeks nothing had happened.
>
> In my experience, the primary source of microbial contamination is
> inadequate physical cleaning. A drop of must or wort is left inside
> some piece of equipment and grows something, which later gets
> transferred to your wine or beer. Sanitizers are no substitute for
> elbow grease.
>
> --arne
>
>

Here, here, Arne.

I use brushes and soda ash to wash and plenty of tap water to rinse.
Having already tested the wine for SO2 I put the amount of potasium
metabisulphite needed into the freshly rinsed container and rack. It's
simple and it works.

Frank

Hi

What do you do when racking into the secondary fermentation vessels?


How does one clean/sanitize the siphon?

Thanks,

David

"Frank Mirigliano" > wrote in message
...
>

....

>
> I use brushes and soda ash to wash and plenty of tap water to rinse.
> Having already tested the wine for SO2 I put the amount of potasium
> metabisulphite needed into the freshly rinsed container and rack. It's
> simple and it works.
>
> Frank

"David" > wrote in message
...
> Hi
>
> What do you do when racking into the secondary fermentation vessels?
>
>
> How does one clean/sanitize the siphon?
>
> Thanks,
>
> David

David,
Wash the siphon with clean water as soon as you finish racking. Then hang
the siphon up so it will drain completely and dry out.
--
Lum
Del Mar, California, USA

"David" > wrote in message
...
> Hi
>
> What do you do when racking into the secondary fermentation vessels?
>
>
> How does one clean/sanitize the siphon?
>
> Thanks,
>
> David

David,
Wash the siphon with clean water as soon as you finish racking. Then hang
the siphon up so it will drain completely and dry out.
--
Lum
Del Mar, California, USA

I am somewhat new to this newsgroup also...but have been reading it for some
time now. I have been making wine for a few years now and have NEVER
sanitized with anything other than tap water and anti-bacterial handsoap. I
have never had a problem. I have never had a batch of wine go bad from my
sterilizing practices. In order to have bacteria or fungus grow on your
equipment it must have something to "feed" upon so as long as you wash and
rinse thoroughly (tap water is fine), you won't ever have a problem...I
speak from experience. You need to be cognizant of the potential for
contamination, but there is no need to be paranoid. Sanitizers and
sterilizers do serve a vital purpose in winemaking, and are even necessary
at times, but let's remember that the ancient Sumerians were able to make
wine without them several thousand years ago...you can too.
-Dan
"Frank Mirigliano" > wrote in message
...
>
>> There seems to be a popular misconception that tap water is not
>> "sanitary". Unless you are getting your water untreated from a well in
>> the middle of a cow pasture or something, it's sanitary enough for all
>> ordinary purposes. The advantage of "no-rinse" sanitizers is
>> convenience.
>>
>> If you don't believe me, mix some tapwater with a small amount of malt
>> extract that's been separate boiled in some water (to sanitize anything
>> in the extract, not the water). Bottle it and wait for it to spoil. You
>> will be waiting a long time I think. I actually tried this once. After
>> two weeks nothing had happened.
>>
>> In my experience, the primary source of microbial contamination is
>> inadequate physical cleaning. A drop of must or wort is left inside some
>> piece of equipment and grows something, which later gets transferred to
>> your wine or beer. Sanitizers are no substitute for elbow grease.
>>
>> --arne
>>
>>
>
> Here, here, Arne.
>
> I use brushes and soda ash to wash and plenty of tap water to rinse.
> Having already tested the wine for SO2 I put the amount of potasium
> metabisulphite needed into the freshly rinsed container and rack. It's
> simple and it works.
>
> Frank

"Dan and Alicia Quagliana" > wrote in message
...
Sanitizers and
> sterilizers do serve a vital purpose in winemaking, and are even necessary
> at times, but let's remember that the ancient Sumerians were able to make
> wine without them several thousand years ago...you can too.

And in a past life, you had some of this Sumerian wine and can comment
knowledgeably on its quality?

Shall we emulate their medical practices for health care, too?

Sorry, referencing the practices of ancients is rarely a strong defense of
anything.

Brian

You bring up a good point that I do not have any knowledge of the quality of
ancient Sumerian wines; however, I *am* qualified to comment on the quality
of my own wines. As I said, I have never had any wine spoil using my
techniques. And since you brought up 'medical practices', our doctor told
us that baby bottles can be completely sterilized in the dishwasher instead
of the age old practice of soaking them in boiling water on the stovetop.
What this means to everyone is that there are many ways to make sure that
your winemaking equipment is free from "nasties". If you feel that you need
a $6000 autoclave to do your sterilizing, I'm sure that you can find one on
e-bay. If you only feel comfortable using bleach or commercial sanitizers,
then by all means use them. If you feel comfortable boiling your equipment,
that will work too. I have consistently and successfully just used plain
old soap and water without any problems. Cleanliness is critical,
obviously, but I was merely making the point that there is no reason to go
overboard if it isn't needed. This thread started with a simple question
about cleanliness and everyone with an opinion has added their 2 cents.
Personally, I don't like being put down simply because my approach is
different from someone else's.

"Brian Lundeen" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dan and Alicia Quagliana" > wrote in message
> ...
> Sanitizers and
>> sterilizers do serve a vital purpose in winemaking, and are even
>> necessary
>> at times, but let's remember that the ancient Sumerians were able to make
>> wine without them several thousand years ago...you can too.
>
> And in a past life, you had some of this Sumerian wine and can comment
> knowledgeably on its quality?
>
> Shall we emulate their medical practices for health care, too?
>
> Sorry, referencing the practices of ancients is rarely a strong defense of
> anything.
>
> Brian
>
>

"Brian Lundeen" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dan and Alicia Quagliana" > wrote in message
> ...
> Sanitizers and
> > sterilizers do serve a vital purpose in winemaking, and are even
necessary
> > at times, but let's remember that the ancient Sumerians were able to
make
> > wine without them several thousand years ago...you can too.
>
> And in a past life, you had some of this Sumerian wine and can comment
> knowledgeably on its quality?
>
> Shall we emulate their medical practices for health care, too?
>
> Sorry, referencing the practices of ancients is rarely a strong defense of
> anything.

Then I guess we should give up on breathing, eating and sex too. What a
dolt.

>
> Brian
>
>

"Brian Lundeen" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dan and Alicia Quagliana" > wrote in message
> ...
> Sanitizers and
> > sterilizers do serve a vital purpose in winemaking, and are even
necessary
> > at times, but let's remember that the ancient Sumerians were able to
make
> > wine without them several thousand years ago...you can too.
>
> And in a past life, you had some of this Sumerian wine and can comment
> knowledgeably on its quality?
>
> Shall we emulate their medical practices for health care, too?
>
> Sorry, referencing the practices of ancients is rarely a strong defense of
> anything.

Then I guess we should give up on breathing, eating and sex too. What a
dolt.

>
> Brian
>
>

"Dan and Alicia Quagliana" > wrote in message
...
Sanitizers and
> sterilizers do serve a vital purpose in winemaking, and are even necessary
> at times, but let's remember that the ancient Sumerians were able to make
> wine without them several thousand years ago...you can too.

And in a past life, you had some of this Sumerian wine and can comment
knowledgeably on its quality?

Shall we emulate their medical practices for health care, too?

Sorry, referencing the practices of ancients is rarely a strong defense of
anything.

Brian

Really well said Arne.

I used to work on sterilizers and the first rule of sterilization is
clean the heck out of whatever you want to sterilize. You cannot
sterilize an instrument with debris on it. A local hospital just got
some people incredibly sick due to improper cleaning of instruments, I
think at least 1 died.

Sanitizing follows the same logic. If it does not look or smell clean,
it's not. I clean with dishwashing detergent but prefer Alconox when I
get around to buying it. It doesn't have any of those ridiculous
scents most detergent makers now feel compelled to add.

I follow that with a spritz of 1/2 teaspoon potassium meta and 1
teaspoon citric per quart of tapwater in a spray bottle. That works
out to an acidic 1% solution of sulfite (approximately). I use that up
in a few months or so, depending on time of year. I've never had
issues following this process.

Joe

> There seems to be a popular misconception that tap water is not
> "sanitary". Unless you are getting your water untreated from a well
> in the middle of a cow pasture or something, it's sanitary enough for
> all ordinary purposes. The advantage of "no-rinse" sanitizers is
> convenience.
>
> If you don't believe me, mix some tapwater with a small amount of malt
> extract that's been separate boiled in some water (to sanitize
> anything in the extract, not the water). Bottle it and wait for it to
> spoil. You will be waiting a long time I think. I actually tried
> this once. After two weeks nothing had happened.
>
> In my experience, the primary source of microbial contamination is
> inadequate physical cleaning. A drop of must or wort is left inside
> some piece of equipment and grows something, which later gets
> transferred to your wine or beer. Sanitizers are no substitute for
> elbow grease.
>
> --arne
>
>

Here, here, Arne.

I use brushes and soda ash to wash and plenty of tap water to rinse.
Having already tested the wine for SO2 I put the amount of potasium
metabisulphite needed into the freshly rinsed container and rack. It's
simple and it works.

Frank

David wrote "There are a number of products on the market and I'm not sure
which to use.
Some of them advertise as "no rinse". Does that mean some other products
require a rinse? In that case what do you rinse with? Tap water? If that
were true why bother sanitizing at all?"

The no-rinse sanitizer I'm most familiar with is Iodophor. I have, and you
can use this product to sanitize (actually sterilize I believe would be the
proper term) bottles and equipment without rinsing and it will not affect
the flavor of beer or wine. I would caution to not let residues of Iodophor
solution dry on bottle walls as it can form a thin film that remains after
you add beer or wine.

If you use Chlorox you must rinse at least three times with water (use
previously boiled tap water if you're worried about it). Trust me, I
learned the hard way that Chlorox residue can add really bad flavors and can
kill residule yeast if you are trying to naturally carbonate beer. Probably
would affect champagne yeast the same way.

Most winemakers us sulfite as a sanitizer. Others have given good advise on
sodium and/or potassium metabisulfite use. No need to rinse these from your
containers or bottles as you will have added some sulfite to your wine.

Finally, it has been said many times on this forum that no pathogenic
microorganisms can live in wine. Some winemakers, myself included, just
make sure that the equipment and bottles are very clean before use.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

"David" > wrote in message
...
> Hi,
>
> I'm new to wine making and I was wondering if folks could recommend a
> sanitization product.

Glad to, it's called Star San. It's used by brewers and has far better
sanitation properties than sulfites. It is an acid based sanitizer that
keeps for months in solution. It is a completely odorless, tasteless, no
rinse sanitizer that needs only a 2 minute contact time. Best of all, you
won't find yourself gasping for clean air when you open the container of
solution. Mix the concentrate up with distilled or RO water for best storage
ability. If your local shop doesn't carry it, there's always the internet.

Brian

David wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm new to wine making and I was wondering if folks could recommend a
> sanitization product. I mainly need to keep fermentation vessels, a
siphon,
> and bottles free from spoiling microorganisms. I am making mostly
small
> batches a gallon or so at a time, using pasteurized juice (so I don't
need
> to kill off microbes in the must).

Could somebody enlighten me about using pasteurized juice? I'm guessing
that a must that as been boilled will not evolved in a wine identical
to one that was not. Is there any benefit to this? Any drawbacks?

>
> There are a number of products on the market and I'm not sure which
to use.
> Some of them advertise as "no rinse". Does that mean some other
products
> require a rinse? In that case what do you rinse with? Tap water? If
that
> were true why bother sanitizing at all?

Sanitizing doesn't mean sterilizing. If your tap water is good enough
for you to drink, it's good enough to rince a fermenting vessel.

Winemaking involves reactions between unrinced fruits that were exposed
to all that you can find in a field + some form of treatment (chemical
or not) and living micro-organism. Care in handling all material and
good hygiene should be used at all time to avoid undesired organisms
spoilling the wine but no need to go overboard.

I used a bleach base product to clean my equipement that had been
sitting in a barn unused for a few years. I rinced with plenty of tap
water via a garden hose and did a I final rince using a potassium
metasulfite solution. I added sodium metasulfite to the must prior to
inoculating the yeast and after racking from the secondary fermentation
vessel. As I'm writting, the wine is aging nicely without showing any
signs of spoillage (thanks to those who advise me on how to bring the
brix down).

>
> Also I bought some stoppers with holes for airlocks but the stoppers
smell
> strongly of rubber and I don't want that smell to go into the wine.
Could
> that happen? Did I buy the wrong thing?

I would not worry about this. You can leave them in a potassium
metasulfite solution a day or two if you wish.

>
>
> Thanks,
>
> David

Best of luck,

Stefan Mazur

I use dish soap and water to clean everything right after use, then
sanitize with star-san. I used to use bleach, but found out later it
could pit stainless steel and other materials, so switched to iodophor,
but I like the star-san because it can be re-used for quite awhile (as
long as pH remains below 3).

Because of the way chlorine can combine with something in cork to cause
a type of corkiness, I believe most professional winemakers are keeping
bleach completely away from the winery if they're using real cork.

On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:04:51 -0500, "David" > wrote:

>Hi,
>
>I'm new to wine making and I was wondering if folks could recommend a
>sanitization product. I mainly need to keep fermentation vessels, a siphon,
>and bottles free from spoiling microorganisms. I am making mostly small
>batches a gallon or so at a time, using pasteurized juice (so I don't need
>to kill off microbes in the must).
>
>There are a number of products on the market and I'm not sure which to use.
>Some of them advertise as "no rinse". Does that mean some other products
>require a rinse? In that case what do you rinse with? Tap water? If that
>were true why bother sanitizing at all?
>
>Also I bought some stoppers with holes for airlocks but the stoppers smell
>strongly of rubber and I don't want that smell to go into the wine. Could
>that happen? Did I buy the wrong thing?
>
>
>Thanks,
>
>David
>
>

WOW! This seems to be a conroversial subject, but I'll go out on a
limb:

IMHO potasium (or sodium) metabisulphite is a poor surface sanitizer.
It works great in must due to the acidity. Also, I use the same
equipment for brewing beer and it is inadvisable to get potasium (or
sodium) metabisulphite anywhere near beer.

Generally speaking, if everything is cleaned thoroughly then
sanitizing is probably not truly necessary for winemaking. However,
to be on the safe side sanitizing is not bad insurance.

Like many others, I like Star-San. It is effective and safe for just
about all materials. I also like iodophor for pretty much the same
reasons, though it requires a longer period of contact and it can
discolor plastic. I do use chlorine because it is so inexpensive.
But chlorine will pit stainless steel, so I only use it on glass and
plastic. Even at recommended dilutions, I do not consider any of the
above to be "no-rinse" -- especially for beer. I rinse with either
boiled water or a solution of "One-Step".

Generally I use chlorine for everything but stainless, I use iodophor
for stainless, and I rinse with One-Step. I came up with these
procedures after consulting a microbiologist and these procedures have
served me well.

Truitt Smith

On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:08:39 -0900, wrote:

>On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:04:51 -0500, "David" > wrote:
>
>>Hi,
>>
>>I'm new to wine making and I was wondering if folks could recommend a
>>sanitization product. I mainly need to keep fermentation vessels, a siphon,
>>and bottles free from spoiling microorganisms. I am making mostly small
>>batches a gallon or so at a time, using pasteurized juice (so I don't need
>>to kill off microbes in the must).
>>
>>There are a number of products on the market and I'm not sure which to use.
>>Some of them advertise as "no rinse". Does that mean some other products
>>require a rinse? In that case what do you rinse with? Tap water? If that
>>were true why bother sanitizing at all?
>>
>>Also I bought some stoppers with holes for airlocks but the stoppers smell
>>strongly of rubber and I don't want that smell to go into the wine. Could
>>that happen? Did I buy the wrong thing?
>>
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>David
>>
>>
>
>WOW! This seems to be a conroversial subject, but I'll go out on a
>limb:
>
>IMHO potasium (or sodium) metabisulphite is a poor surface sanitizer.
>It works great in must due to the acidity. Also, I use the same
>equipment for brewing beer and it is inadvisable to get potasium (or
>sodium) metabisulphite anywhere near beer.
>
>Generally speaking, if everything is cleaned thoroughly then
>sanitizing is probably not truly necessary for winemaking. However,
>to be on the safe side sanitizing is not bad insurance.
>
>Like many others, I like Star-San. It is effective and safe for just
>about all materials. I also like iodophor for pretty much the same
>reasons, though it requires a longer period of contact and it can
>discolor plastic. I do use chlorine because it is so inexpensive.
>But chlorine will pit stainless steel, so I only use it on glass and
>plastic. Even at recommended dilutions, I do not consider any of the
>above to be "no-rinse" -- especially for beer. I rinse with either
>boiled water or a solution of "One-Step".
>
>Generally I use chlorine for everything but stainless, I use iodophor
>for stainless, and I rinse with One-Step. I came up with these
>procedures after consulting a microbiologist and these procedures have
>served me well.
>
>Truitt Smith

Like you I make both beer and wine and I basically use the same
procedures for both. I keep two buckets of solution ready for use.
One is Iodophor and the other is PDW (Profesional Brewers Wash.
I belive that this is chlorine based).
When I have enough emptied bottles they go into the PDW and then get
rinsed off with tap water, allowed to dry and stored for future use.
This removes labels from wine bottles and deposits from beer bottles.
When ready to bottle, I go through the same procedure, excepting using
Iodophor in placec ofPBW).
Both solutions are also used where relevant on all the other
equipment. On primary fermenters mechanical means ( brushes ) are also
necessary.
As a rinsing agent, tap water from a a municipal supply will remove
the chlorine and iodine down to negligable levels and is safe. It will
not however sanitize,
I like PBW as it is stable. When it gets dirty I have other uses.
Before I throw it out, I use it to clean bird feeders or other
similar items .
Cheers BoB G.

> wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:04:51 -0500, "David" > wrote:
>
>
> Like many others, I like Star-San. It is effective and safe for just
> about all materials. I also like iodophor for pretty much the same
> reasons, though it requires a longer period of contact and it can
> discolor plastic. I do use chlorine because it is so inexpensive.
> But chlorine will pit stainless steel, so I only use it on glass and
> plastic. Even at recommended dilutions, I do not consider any of the
> above to be "no-rinse" -- especially for beer. I rinse with either
> boiled water or a solution of "One-Step".
>

Chlorine must be rinsed, but it has been demonstrated over and over that in
the recommended concentrations, neither Iodophor nor Star San require
rinsing. Iodophor should be very well drained, but Star San, you can leave
some foam behind. It is completely undetectable. Or is it that
dodecylbenzenesulphonic acid has too many syllables for you to consider it
safe to ingest? ;-)

Brian

>
>
> WOW! This seems to be a conroversial subject, but I'll go out on a
> limb:

You can say that again.

>
> IMHO potasium (or sodium) metabisulphite is a poor surface sanitizer.

Not according to a chemist and a biologist I've talked to. In the
concentrations we use to as a sanitizing agent, Pot. Meta is very
effective. It also has other valuable properties like neutralizing
chlorine which is the bane of wine and beer makers. Plus you don't
really have to worry about residue because it is widely added to wine
anyway. IMHO, the only true no rinse, although Idophor and Star San are
probably pretty safe too.

> It works great in must due to the acidity.

Just acidify your solution with a little tartaric or citric acid. I
don't bother because at 12.5 g Pot. Meta to a liter of water I've never
had anything grow in it. I even store my carboys bunged with solution
in there and have never had anything grow in them.

> Also, I use the same
> equipment for brewing beer and it is inadvisable to get potasium (or
> sodium) metabisulphite anywhere near beer.

That's just not true. I use Pot. Meta in my brewing water to neutralize
chlorine and chloromines. It's been reported that some commercial UK
brews add it for product stability and some people are starting to add
it to their mash.

>
> I also like iodophor for pretty much the same
> reasons, though it requires a longer period of contact and it can
> discolor plastic.

It can also neutralize the SO2 many wine makers add to the wine so if
used as no rinse you may have to add more Pot. Meta to compensate.

>I do use chlorine because it is so inexpensive.
> But chlorine will pit stainless steel, so I only use it on glass and
> plastic.

Chlorine bleach has so many bad properties and so much potential
downside, I completely eliminated it in the brewery/winery. It may be
cheap but no sanitizer I see commonly used is really that expensive.
It's a small price to pay for piece of mind.


Andy

On 1 Apr 2005 10:05:55 -0800, "JEP62" > wrote:

>
> >
>>
>> WOW! This seems to be a conroversial subject, but I'll go out on a
>> limb:
>
>You can say that again.
>
>>
>> IMHO potasium (or sodium) metabisulphite is a poor surface sanitizer.
>
>Not according to a chemist and a biologist I've talked to. In the
>concentrations we use to as a sanitizing agent, Pot. Meta is very
>effective. It also has other valuable properties like neutralizing
>chlorine which is the bane of wine and beer makers. Plus you don't
>really have to worry about residue because it is widely added to wine
>anyway. IMHO, the only true no rinse, although Idophor and Star San are
>probably pretty safe too.
>
>> It works great in must due to the acidity.
>
>Just acidify your solution with a little tartaric or citric acid. I
>don't bother because at 12.5 g Pot. Meta to a liter of water I've never
>had anything grow in it. I even store my carboys bunged with solution
>in there and have never had anything grow in them.
>
>> Also, I use the same
>> equipment for brewing beer and it is inadvisable to get potasium (or
>> sodium) metabisulphite anywhere near beer.
>
>That's just not true. I use Pot. Meta in my brewing water to neutralize
>chlorine and chloromines. It's been reported that some commercial UK
>brews add it for product stability and some people are starting to add
>it to their mash.
>
>>
>> I also like iodophor for pretty much the same
>> reasons, though it requires a longer period of contact and it can
>> discolor plastic.
>
>It can also neutralize the SO2 many wine makers add to the wine so if
>used as no rinse you may have to add more Pot. Meta to compensate.
>
>>I do use chlorine because it is so inexpensive.
>> But chlorine will pit stainless steel, so I only use it on glass and
>> plastic.
>
>Chlorine bleach has so many bad properties and so much potential
>downside, I completely eliminated it in the brewery/winery. It may be
>cheap but no sanitizer I see commonly used is really that expensive.
>It's a small price to pay for piece of mind.
>
>
>Andy


As I said, controversial.

Granted it is an old text, but according to Greg Noonan's "Brewing
Lager Beer" metabisuphite is "antifermentive, not bactericidal."

Noonan also refered to sodium hypochlorite (bleach) as "a very
effective sterilant." and stated that at a dilution of .2 percent it
requires no rinsing.

However, your point that meta will neutralize chlorine and chloromines
is well taken.

Cheers,
Truitt

Not to be argumentative but I simply do not buy the 'sterilant'
comment, especially when applied to bleach. It's a sanitzer, a
cleaner. Sterility is difficult to acheive and almost impossible to
maintain over any length of time. It's also not necessary in wine or
beer making unless you are culturing yeast slants in beer making as far
as I am concerned.

A 10% solution of common 5% household bleach is a great sanitizer but I
rarely use it in wine or beer making. If I had vinegar in a carboy and
had decided to reuse it for wine, I would use bleach. I often get used
bottles back that I preclean with that 10% solution also. (I have no
idea why someone would not rinse a bottle prior to returning it, but it
happens more often than not...)

I do agree Noonan is an expert beermaker, I have that book too and use
it often. I just think the word 'sterile' is often misused in wine and
beer making circles.

Joe

Not to be argumentative but I simply do not buy the 'sterilant'
comment, especially when applied to bleach. It's a sanitzer, a
cleaner. Sterility is difficult to acheive and almost impossible to
maintain over any length of time. It's also not necessary in wine or
beer making unless you are culturing yeast slants in beer making as far
as I am concerned.

A 10% solution of common 5% household bleach is a great sanitizer but I
rarely use it in wine or beer making. If I had vinegar in a carboy and
had decided to reuse it for wine, I would use bleach. I often get used
bottles back that I preclean with that 10% solution also. (I have no
idea why someone would not rinse a bottle prior to returning it, but it
happens more often than not...)

I do agree Noonan is an expert beermaker, I have that book too and use
it often. I just think the word 'sterile' is often misused in wine and
beer making circles.

Joe

On 1 Apr 2005 10:05:55 -0800, "JEP62" > wrote:

>
> >
>>
>> WOW! This seems to be a conroversial subject, but I'll go out on a
>> limb:
>
>You can say that again.
>
>>
>> IMHO potasium (or sodium) metabisulphite is a poor surface sanitizer.
>
>Not according to a chemist and a biologist I've talked to. In the
>concentrations we use to as a sanitizing agent, Pot. Meta is very
>effective. It also has other valuable properties like neutralizing
>chlorine which is the bane of wine and beer makers. Plus you don't
>really have to worry about residue because it is widely added to wine
>anyway. IMHO, the only true no rinse, although Idophor and Star San are
>probably pretty safe too.
>
>> It works great in must due to the acidity.
>
>Just acidify your solution with a little tartaric or citric acid. I
>don't bother because at 12.5 g Pot. Meta to a liter of water I've never
>had anything grow in it. I even store my carboys bunged with solution
>in there and have never had anything grow in them.
>
>> Also, I use the same
>> equipment for brewing beer and it is inadvisable to get potasium (or
>> sodium) metabisulphite anywhere near beer.
>
>That's just not true. I use Pot. Meta in my brewing water to neutralize
>chlorine and chloromines. It's been reported that some commercial UK
>brews add it for product stability and some people are starting to add
>it to their mash.
>
>>
>> I also like iodophor for pretty much the same
>> reasons, though it requires a longer period of contact and it can
>> discolor plastic.
>
>It can also neutralize the SO2 many wine makers add to the wine so if
>used as no rinse you may have to add more Pot. Meta to compensate.
>
>>I do use chlorine because it is so inexpensive.
>> But chlorine will pit stainless steel, so I only use it on glass and
>> plastic.
>
>Chlorine bleach has so many bad properties and so much potential
>downside, I completely eliminated it in the brewery/winery. It may be
>cheap but no sanitizer I see commonly used is really that expensive.
>It's a small price to pay for piece of mind.
>
>
>Andy


As I said, controversial.

Granted it is an old text, but according to Greg Noonan's "Brewing
Lager Beer" metabisuphite is "antifermentive, not bactericidal."

Noonan also refered to sodium hypochlorite (bleach) as "a very
effective sterilant." and stated that at a dilution of .2 percent it
requires no rinsing.

However, your point that meta will neutralize chlorine and chloromines
is well taken.

Cheers,
Truitt

David wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm new to wine making and I was wondering if folks could recommend a
> sanitization product. I mainly need to keep fermentation vessels, a siphon,
> and bottles free from spoiling microorganisms. I am making mostly small
> batches a gallon or so at a time, using pasteurized juice (so I don't need
> to kill off microbes in the must).
>
> There are a number of products on the market and I'm not sure which to use.
> Some of them advertise as "no rinse". Does that mean some other products
> require a rinse? In that case what do you rinse with? Tap water? If that
> were true why bother sanitizing at all?
>
> Also I bought some stoppers with holes for airlocks but the stoppers smell
> strongly of rubber and I don't want that smell to go into the wine. Could
> that happen? Did I buy the wrong thing?

I use 50g powdered KMS(potssium metabisulphite) in 4 litres of boiling
water for sanitizing everything. You can rinse with ditilled water
afterwards if you desire.

"David" > wrote in message
...
> Hi,
>
> In that case what do you rinse with? Tap water? If that
> were true why bother sanitizing at all?
>

There seems to be a popular misconception that tap water is not
"sanitary". Unless you are getting your water untreated from a well
in the middle of a cow pasture or something, it's sanitary enough for
all ordinary purposes. The advantage of "no-rinse" sanitizers is
convenience.

If you don't believe me, mix some tapwater with a small amount of malt
extract that's been separate boiled in some water (to sanitize
anything in the extract, not the water). Bottle it and wait for it to
spoil. You will be waiting a long time I think. I actually tried
this once. After two weeks nothing had happened.

In my experience, the primary source of microbial contamination is
inadequate physical cleaning. A drop of must or wort is left inside
some piece of equipment and grows something, which later gets
transferred to your wine or beer. Sanitizers are no substitute for
elbow grease.

--arne

David wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm new to wine making and I was wondering if folks could recommend a
> sanitization product. I mainly need to keep fermentation vessels, a siphon,
> and bottles free from spoiling microorganisms. I am making mostly small
> batches a gallon or so at a time, using pasteurized juice (so I don't need
> to kill off microbes in the must).
>
> There are a number of products on the market and I'm not sure which to use.
> Some of them advertise as "no rinse". Does that mean some other products
> require a rinse? In that case what do you rinse with? Tap water? If that
> were true why bother sanitizing at all?
>
> Also I bought some stoppers with holes for airlocks but the stoppers smell
> strongly of rubber and I don't want that smell to go into the wine. Could
> that happen? Did I buy the wrong thing?

I use 50g powdered KMS(potssium metabisulphite) in 4 litres of boiling
water for sanitizing everything. You can rinse with ditilled water
afterwards if you desire.

The most common sanitizer is sodium metabiosulfite or potassium
metabiosulfite. Sodium meta is cheaper and a great sanitizer. It should
not be used in the wine. For that use the Potassium meta, so it is a good
idea to have both. The instructions for mixing a sanitizing solution is
given on the package when you get it. You should mix in some citric acid
when you make the solution. This will enhance the action and I think it
makes it keep longer. A solution should be good for several months and then
needs to be used fresh. When you clean your carboys and are going to store
them, pour a few tablespoons in each and seal it with plastic wrap. It will
be sanitized when you need it 6 months or a year later.

If your rubber bungs smell of rubber, soak them in the solution for a few
days and they will probably loose the smell. They should not be in contact
with the wine anyway but I agree that you should get rid of the smell before
use.

Ray

"David" > wrote in message
...
> Hi,
>
> I'm new to wine making and I was wondering if folks could recommend a
> sanitization product. I mainly need to keep fermentation vessels, a
> siphon,
> and bottles free from spoiling microorganisms. I am making mostly small
> batches a gallon or so at a time, using pasteurized juice (so I don't need
> to kill off microbes in the must).
>
> There are a number of products on the market and I'm not sure which to
> use.
> Some of them advertise as "no rinse". Does that mean some other products
> require a rinse? In that case what do you rinse with? Tap water? If that
> were true why bother sanitizing at all?
>
> Also I bought some stoppers with holes for airlocks but the stoppers smell
> strongly of rubber and I don't want that smell to go into the wine. Could
> that happen? Did I buy the wrong thing?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> David
>
>
>

"David" > wrote in message
...
> Hi,
>
> In that case what do you rinse with? Tap water? If that
> were true why bother sanitizing at all?
>

There seems to be a popular misconception that tap water is not
"sanitary". Unless you are getting your water untreated from a well
in the middle of a cow pasture or something, it's sanitary enough for
all ordinary purposes. The advantage of "no-rinse" sanitizers is
convenience.

If you don't believe me, mix some tapwater with a small amount of malt
extract that's been separate boiled in some water (to sanitize
anything in the extract, not the water). Bottle it and wait for it to
spoil. You will be waiting a long time I think. I actually tried
this once. After two weeks nothing had happened.

In my experience, the primary source of microbial contamination is
inadequate physical cleaning. A drop of must or wort is left inside
some piece of equipment and grows something, which later gets
transferred to your wine or beer. Sanitizers are no substitute for
elbow grease.

--arne

"David" > wrote in message
...
> Hi,
>
> I'm new to wine making and I was wondering if folks could recommend a
> sanitization product.

Glad to, it's called Star San. It's used by brewers and has far better
sanitation properties than sulfites. It is an acid based sanitizer that
keeps for months in solution. It is a completely odorless, tasteless, no
rinse sanitizer that needs only a 2 minute contact time. Best of all, you
won't find yourself gasping for clean air when you open the container of
solution. Mix the concentrate up with distilled or RO water for best storage
ability. If your local shop doesn't carry it, there's always the internet.

Brian

I use dish soap and water to clean everything right after use, then
sanitize with star-san. I used to use bleach, but found out later it
could pit stainless steel and other materials, so switched to iodophor,
but I like the star-san because it can be re-used for quite awhile (as
long as pH remains below 3).

Because of the way chlorine can combine with something in cork to cause
a type of corkiness, I believe most professional winemakers are keeping
bleach completely away from the winery if they're using real cork.

On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:04:51 -0500, "David" > wrote:

>Hi,
>
>I'm new to wine making and I was wondering if folks could recommend a
>sanitization product. I mainly need to keep fermentation vessels, a siphon,
>and bottles free from spoiling microorganisms. I am making mostly small
>batches a gallon or so at a time, using pasteurized juice (so I don't need
>to kill off microbes in the must).
>
>There are a number of products on the market and I'm not sure which to use.
>Some of them advertise as "no rinse". Does that mean some other products
>require a rinse? In that case what do you rinse with? Tap water? If that
>were true why bother sanitizing at all?
>
>Also I bought some stoppers with holes for airlocks but the stoppers smell
>strongly of rubber and I don't want that smell to go into the wine. Could
>that happen? Did I buy the wrong thing?
>
>
>Thanks,
>
>David
>
>

WOW! This seems to be a conroversial subject, but I'll go out on a
limb:

IMHO potasium (or sodium) metabisulphite is a poor surface sanitizer.
It works great in must due to the acidity. Also, I use the same
equipment for brewing beer and it is inadvisable to get potasium (or
sodium) metabisulphite anywhere near beer.

Generally speaking, if everything is cleaned thoroughly then
sanitizing is probably not truly necessary for winemaking. However,
to be on the safe side sanitizing is not bad insurance.

Like many others, I like Star-San. It is effective and safe for just
about all materials. I also like iodophor for pretty much the same
reasons, though it requires a longer period of contact and it can
discolor plastic. I do use chlorine because it is so inexpensive.
But chlorine will pit stainless steel, so I only use it on glass and
plastic. Even at recommended dilutions, I do not consider any of the
above to be "no-rinse" -- especially for beer. I rinse with either
boiled water or a solution of "One-Step".

Generally I use chlorine for everything but stainless, I use iodophor
for stainless, and I rinse with One-Step. I came up with these
procedures after consulting a microbiologist and these procedures have
served me well.

Truitt Smith

"David" > wrote in message
...
> Hi,
>
> In that case what do you rinse with? Tap water? If that
> were true why bother sanitizing at all?
>

There seems to be a popular misconception that tap water is not
"sanitary". Unless you are getting your water untreated from a well
in the middle of a cow pasture or something, it's sanitary enough for
all ordinary purposes. The advantage of "no-rinse" sanitizers is
convenience.

If you don't believe me, mix some tapwater with a small amount of malt
extract that's been separate boiled in some water (to sanitize
anything in the extract, not the water). Bottle it and wait for it to
spoil. You will be waiting a long time I think. I actually tried
this once. After two weeks nothing had happened.

In my experience, the primary source of microbial contamination is
inadequate physical cleaning. A drop of must or wort is left inside
some piece of equipment and grows something, which later gets
transferred to your wine or beer. Sanitizers are no substitute for
elbow grease.

--arne