Well, I added two Campden tablets to a batch of wine along with sugar
and sorbate and the result was a fine cloudyness. I hope someone can
give me a simple plan for getting this cloudyness to go away. If you
want the whole saga before you offer any help you may have, you can
read on.

I made a batch of rose hip wine, basically following the recipie from
Jack Keller's website. After it fermented dry, I fined it, first with
bentonite, then with KC Superclear (that's the Kieselsol/Chitosan
co-fining packets at the wine supply store). It was sparkling clear --
the second fining really removed the last of the fluffy floating
bentonite. After a couple months of bulk ageing, I racked again, and
ended up with a gallon and a half. I added a weighed amount of sugar,
and half a tsp of sobate (I don't have a gram scale, so the tsp has to
be close enough). The wine was still clear. I crushed 2 campden
tablets in 1/4 cup of the wine until they were finely crushed, no
chunks of any kind. It was cloudy in the cup, but I didn't let that
worry me, I was sure it would all dissolve in the full volume. I was
wrong, the whole batch is now cloudy, and it doesn't appear to be
settling at all.

This has come up on this board before, I found with a Google search
(hehttp://groups-beta.google.com/group/...7dc1d15a4f7813)
That posting said that the only hope is another Bentonite fining.
Which is pretty depressing because I have already fined with bentonite,
and don't want to deal with fluffy lees again. If anyone had the same
problem and can suggest another fining agent, I'd like to try it
instead. If anyone has managed to drop this cloudyness some other way
-- maybe the binders won't drop at 55 F, the temperature of my cellar,
and would drop at a colder temperature or a warmer one?

The only thought I have is that you added sugar and sorbate at the same
time. Sorbate is a stabilizer and I could be wrong but if you add the sugar
and sorbate at the same time then the wine would not have time to stabilize.
The cloudiness could be due to the yeast eating the sugar you just added. I
have never had a campden tablet make my wine cloudy.

Thanks,

David


> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Well, I added two Campden tablets to a batch of wine along with sugar
> and sorbate and the result was a fine cloudyness. I hope someone can
> give me a simple plan for getting this cloudyness to go away. If you
> want the whole saga before you offer any help you may have, you can
> read on.
>
> I made a batch of rose hip wine, basically following the recipie from
> Jack Keller's website. After it fermented dry, I fined it, first with
> bentonite, then with KC Superclear (that's the Kieselsol/Chitosan
> co-fining packets at the wine supply store). It was sparkling clear --
> the second fining really removed the last of the fluffy floating
> bentonite. After a couple months of bulk ageing, I racked again, and
> ended up with a gallon and a half. I added a weighed amount of sugar,
> and half a tsp of sobate (I don't have a gram scale, so the tsp has to
> be close enough). The wine was still clear. I crushed 2 campden
> tablets in 1/4 cup of the wine until they were finely crushed, no
> chunks of any kind. It was cloudy in the cup, but I didn't let that
> worry me, I was sure it would all dissolve in the full volume. I was
> wrong, the whole batch is now cloudy, and it doesn't appear to be
> settling at all.
>
> This has come up on this board before, I found with a Google search
>
(hehttp://groups-beta.google.com/group/...g/browse_threa
d/thread/c6419ae6716981cc/d27dc1d15a4f7813?q=campden+cloudy&_done=%2Fgroup%2
Frec.crafts.winemaking%2Fsearch%3Fgroup%3Drec.craf ts.winemaking%26q%3Dcampde
n+cloudy%26qt_g%3D1%26searchnow%3DSearch+this+grou p%26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Se
arch&&d#d27dc1d15a4f7813)
> That posting said that the only hope is another Bentonite fining.
> Which is pretty depressing because I have already fined with bentonite,
> and don't want to deal with fluffy lees again. If anyone had the same
> problem and can suggest another fining agent, I'd like to try it
> instead. If anyone has managed to drop this cloudyness some other way
> -- maybe the binders won't drop at 55 F, the temperature of my cellar,
> and would drop at a colder temperature or a warmer one?
>

I have had that cloudiness happen a few times... With Apple, Rosehip
and Crabapple wines (there was at least one other one but I forget).
I started with a brilliantly clear wine, added Campden and watch it
turn the color and opaqueness of skim milk. I let it sit for almost a
year with little result... I finally filtered each batch and bottled
it.

I wrote and called a couple of manufacturers of Campden Tablets and
they had no idea of what happened and why.

I have made the very same wines several times and used Campden without
problems. I don't know what causes a particular wine to go opaque, so
I stopped using Campden.

Later,
A.J. Rawls
Anchorage, Alaska, USA


On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 19:59:05 GMT, "David J." >
wrote:

>The only thought I have is that you added sugar and sorbate at the same
>time. Sorbate is a stabilizer and I could be wrong but if you add the sugar
>and sorbate at the same time then the wine would not have time to stabilize.
>The cloudiness could be due to the yeast eating the sugar you just added. I
>have never had a campden tablet make my wine cloudy.
>
>Thanks,
>
>David
>
>
> wrote in message
roups.com...
>> Well, I added two Campden tablets to a batch of wine along with sugar
>> and sorbate and the result was a fine cloudyness. I hope someone can
>> give me a simple plan for getting this cloudyness to go away. If you
>> want the whole saga before you offer any help you may have, you can
>> read on.
>>
>> I made a batch of rose hip wine, basically following the recipie from
>> Jack Keller's website. After it fermented dry, I fined it, first with
>> bentonite, then with KC Superclear (that's the Kieselsol/Chitosan
>> co-fining packets at the wine supply store). It was sparkling clear --
>> the second fining really removed the last of the fluffy floating
>> bentonite. After a couple months of bulk ageing, I racked again, and
>> ended up with a gallon and a half. I added a weighed amount of sugar,
>> and half a tsp of sobate (I don't have a gram scale, so the tsp has to
>> be close enough). The wine was still clear. I crushed 2 campden
>> tablets in 1/4 cup of the wine until they were finely crushed, no
>> chunks of any kind. It was cloudy in the cup, but I didn't let that
>> worry me, I was sure it would all dissolve in the full volume. I was
>> wrong, the whole batch is now cloudy, and it doesn't appear to be
>> settling at all.
>>
>> This has come up on this board before, I found with a Google search
>>
>(hehttp://groups-beta.google.com/group/...g/browse_threa
>d/thread/c6419ae6716981cc/d27dc1d15a4f7813?q=campden+cloudy&_done=%2Fgroup%2
>Frec.crafts.winemaking%2Fsearch%3Fgroup%3Drec.cra fts.winemaking%26q%3Dcampde
>n+cloudy%26qt_g%3D1%26searchnow%3DSearch+this+gro up%26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Se
>arch&&d#d27dc1d15a4f7813)
>> That posting said that the only hope is another Bentonite fining.
>> Which is pretty depressing because I have already fined with bentonite,
>> and don't want to deal with fluffy lees again. If anyone had the same
>> problem and can suggest another fining agent, I'd like to try it
>> instead. If anyone has managed to drop this cloudyness some other way
>> -- maybe the binders won't drop at 55 F, the temperature of my cellar,
>> and would drop at a colder temperature or a warmer one?
>>
>

A. J. Rawls wrote:
> I have had that cloudiness happen a few times... With Apple, Rosehip
> and Crabapple wines (there was at least one other one but I forget).
> I started with a brilliantly clear wine, added Campden and watch it
> turn the color and opaqueness of skim milk. I let it sit for almost
a
> year with little result... I finally filtered each batch and bottled
> it.
Thanks, I searched google groups and found your original post, it was
about strawberry wine, almost a year ago to date. That's what's
depressing, if I had searched before, I could have sweetened, sorbated,
THEN fined. In fact, I did search for rose hip wine recipies, but just
find this particular problem.

I tried warming the wine up to 65 F to maybe dissolve something, that
didn't help. I have it in the fridge now to help it settle, when I
get the chance I'll put it outside at night when the temp is about 32 F
-- I don't want it to freeze and shatter the glass. If I have to fine
again, I'll use the KC again. I don't want to deal with bentonite
lees.

Dang. What is this cloudyness? Could it all be binder from the
Campden? Is it some residual secret protein from rose hips (and in
your case, apple and strawberry) that sat calmly in solution through
bentonite and kieselsol and chitosan, which reacted badly to
metabisulfite? Or some bizarre acid reaction between excess unusual
fruit acids (all Vitamin C rich fruits here), metabisuphate, sorbate
and sugar? I guess we'll never know. Ah well, there's next year's crop
of rose hips for me to play with -- they're free, afterall.

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> A. J. Rawls wrote:
> > I have had that cloudiness happen a few times... With Apple, Rosehip
> > and Crabapple wines (there was at least one other one but I forget).
> > I started with a brilliantly clear wine, added Campden and watch it
> > turn the color and opaqueness of skim milk. I let it sit for almost
> a
> > year with little result... I finally filtered each batch and bottled
> > it.
> Thanks, I searched google groups and found your original post, it was
> about strawberry wine, almost a year ago to date. That's what's
> depressing, if I had searched before, I could have sweetened, sorbated,
> THEN fined. In fact, I did search for rose hip wine recipies, but just
> find this particular problem.
>
> I tried warming the wine up to 65 F to maybe dissolve something, that
> didn't help. I have it in the fridge now to help it settle, when I
> get the chance I'll put it outside at night when the temp is about 32 F
> -- I don't want it to freeze and shatter the glass. If I have to fine
> again, I'll use the KC again. I don't want to deal with bentonite
> lees.
>
> Dang. What is this cloudyness? Could it all be binder from the
> Campden? Is it some residual secret protein from rose hips (and in
> your case, apple and strawberry) that sat calmly in solution through
> bentonite and kieselsol and chitosan, which reacted badly to
> metabisulfite? Or some bizarre acid reaction between excess unusual
> fruit acids (all Vitamin C rich fruits here), metabisuphate, sorbate
> and sugar? I guess we'll never know. Ah well, there's next year's crop
> of rose hips for me to play with -- they're free, afterall.

I have experienced similar hazes after using Campden tables. I have never
experienced hazes when using potassium metabisulfite, so I suspect the
binder in Campden tablets causes the problem.
Lum
Del Mar, California, USA

> wrote in message
> Dang. What is this cloudyness? Could it all be binder from the
> Campden?

What binder is listed on the label of your tablets?

"J F" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> > wrote in message
> > Dang. What is this cloudyness? Could it all be binder from the
> > Campden?
>
> What binder is listed on the label of your tablets?
>
Mine don't list the binder but it appears to be some sort of wax. It's
light, white and soft. It leaves a neat little ring around the top of the
carboy when I rack.

Bob wrote:
> "J F" > wrote in message
> .. .
> >
> > > wrote in message
> > > Dang. What is this cloudyness? Could it all be binder from the
> > > Campden?
> >
> > What binder is listed on the label of your tablets?
> >
> Mine don't list the binder but it appears to be some sort of wax.
It's
> light, white and soft. It leaves a neat little ring around the top of
the
> carboy when I rack.

Exactly. I asked the group once before what the binder in Campden
tablets was, and people came up with proplyene glycol or sodium
benzoate. At any rate, there are only traces of these binders in each
tablet. Not likely enough for 2 tablets to cloud a gallon and a half.
Besides, why did it happen now, after sugar and sorbate, and not
before, when I added the tablets after every other racking?

Maybe some fruit wines contain high levels of something simple (like an
obscure nonfermentable sugar, or some strange acid) that doesn't like
to stay dissolved in sorbate plus campden. Ah well, moot point at this
point really, it SEEMS to be slowly settling out. A couple of months,
and we'll see if I have to fine again.

Hi,
I've noticed the same thing with some of my wines, but it doesn't happen
with all, only with a few. I use campden tablets all the time. Usually, the
wines clear; if they don't I usually fine them (but then I don't do this a
lot either). Just be patient.
Darlene
Wisconsin

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Bob wrote:
>> "J F" > wrote in message
>> .. .
>> >
>> > > wrote in message
>> > > Dang. What is this cloudyness? Could it all be binder from the
>> > > Campden?
>> >
>> > What binder is listed on the label of your tablets?
>> >
>> Mine don't list the binder but it appears to be some sort of wax.
> It's
>> light, white and soft. It leaves a neat little ring around the top of
> the
>> carboy when I rack.
>
> Exactly. I asked the group once before what the binder in Campden
> tablets was, and people came up with proplyene glycol or sodium
> benzoate. At any rate, there are only traces of these binders in each
> tablet. Not likely enough for 2 tablets to cloud a gallon and a half.
> Besides, why did it happen now, after sugar and sorbate, and not
> before, when I added the tablets after every other racking?
>
> Maybe some fruit wines contain high levels of something simple (like an
> obscure nonfermentable sugar, or some strange acid) that doesn't like
> to stay dissolved in sorbate plus campden. Ah well, moot point at this
> point really, it SEEMS to be slowly settling out. A couple of months,
> and we'll see if I have to fine again.
>

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Bob wrote:
> > "J F" > wrote in message
> > .. .
> > >
> > > > wrote in message
> > > > Dang. What is this cloudyness? Could it all be binder from the
> > > > Campden?
> > >
> > > What binder is listed on the label of your tablets?
> > >
> > Mine don't list the binder but it appears to be some sort of wax.
> It's
> > light, white and soft. It leaves a neat little ring around the top of
> the
> > carboy when I rack.
>
> Exactly. I asked the group once before what the binder in Campden
> tablets was, and people came up with proplyene glycol or sodium
> benzoate. At any rate, there are only traces of these binders in each
> tablet. Not likely enough for 2 tablets to cloud a gallon and a half.
> Besides, why did it happen now, after sugar and sorbate, and not
> before, when I added the tablets after every other racking?
>
> Maybe some fruit wines contain high levels of something simple (like an
> obscure nonfermentable sugar, or some strange acid) that doesn't like
> to stay dissolved in sorbate plus campden. Ah well, moot point at this
> point really, it SEEMS to be slowly settling out. A couple of months,
> and we'll see if I have to fine again.
>
What does anyone think about it being PECTIN??????

On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 10:55:14 -0500, "Bob" > wrote:

>
> wrote in message
roups.com...
>>
>> Bob wrote:
>> > "J F" > wrote in message
>> > .. .
>> > >
>> > > > wrote in message
>> > > > Dang. What is this cloudyness? Could it all be binder from the
>> > > > Campden?
>> > >
>> > > What binder is listed on the label of your tablets?
>> > >
>> > Mine don't list the binder but it appears to be some sort of wax.
>> It's
>> > light, white and soft. It leaves a neat little ring around the top of
>> the
>> > carboy when I rack.
>>
>> Exactly. I asked the group once before what the binder in Campden
>> tablets was, and people came up with proplyene glycol or sodium
>> benzoate. At any rate, there are only traces of these binders in each
>> tablet. Not likely enough for 2 tablets to cloud a gallon and a half.
>> Besides, why did it happen now, after sugar and sorbate, and not
>> before, when I added the tablets after every other racking?
>>
>> Maybe some fruit wines contain high levels of something simple (like an
>> obscure nonfermentable sugar, or some strange acid) that doesn't like
>> to stay dissolved in sorbate plus campden. Ah well, moot point at this
>> point really, it SEEMS to be slowly settling out. A couple of months,
>> and we'll see if I have to fine again.
>>
> What does anyone think about it being PECTIN??????
>

I don't think it's pectin.. It filters out easily and stays gone.

I didn't think of pectin either. A pectin haze is usually a reason why your
wine won't clear to begin with, and won't clear on its own. Usually the
campden haze clears up on its own. I'm not sure why it happens; I use
campden tablets all the time (sometimes it happens, sometimes not). I keep
pretty good notes on any batch I make, and I've never noticed a pattern of
campden haze with any particular fruit, veggie, or frozen concentrate. I
rarely use anything to clear a wine either, most clear on their own. Hope
this helps. Hang in there.
Darlene
Wisconsin

"Bob" > wrote in message
...
>
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>>
>> Bob wrote:
>> > "J F" > wrote in message
>> > .. .
>> > >
>> > > > wrote in message
>> > > > Dang. What is this cloudyness? Could it all be binder from the
>> > > > Campden?
>> > >
>> > > What binder is listed on the label of your tablets?
>> > >
>> > Mine don't list the binder but it appears to be some sort of wax.
>> It's
>> > light, white and soft. It leaves a neat little ring around the top of
>> the
>> > carboy when I rack.
>>
>> Exactly. I asked the group once before what the binder in Campden
>> tablets was, and people came up with proplyene glycol or sodium
>> benzoate. At any rate, there are only traces of these binders in each
>> tablet. Not likely enough for 2 tablets to cloud a gallon and a half.
>> Besides, why did it happen now, after sugar and sorbate, and not
>> before, when I added the tablets after every other racking?
>>
>> Maybe some fruit wines contain high levels of something simple (like an
>> obscure nonfermentable sugar, or some strange acid) that doesn't like
>> to stay dissolved in sorbate plus campden. Ah well, moot point at this
>> point really, it SEEMS to be slowly settling out. A couple of months,
>> and we'll see if I have to fine again.
>>
> What does anyone think about it being PECTIN??????
>
>

"Dar V" > wrote in message
...
> I didn't think of pectin either. A pectin haze is usually a reason why
your
> wine won't clear to begin with, and won't clear on its own. Usually the
> campden haze clears up on its own. I'm not sure why it happens; I use
> campden tablets all the time (sometimes it happens, sometimes not). I keep
> pretty good notes on any batch I make, and I've never noticed a pattern of
> campden haze with any particular fruit, veggie, or frozen concentrate. I
> rarely use anything to clear a wine either, most clear on their own. Hope
> this helps. Hang in there.
> Darlene
> Wisconsin
>
I'm with Darlene; I haven't used anything to make the sediment fall out
in years. My main ingredient is patience....
"Time is on my side..." -The Rolling Stones-
Bob
--
"We are assassins, we are not evil,
we act with reason, and heart...
your heart."- Gary Numan- "I, Assassin"


> "Bob" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > > wrote in message
> > oups.com...
> >>
> >> Bob wrote:
> >> > "J F" > wrote in message
> >> > .. .
> >> > >
> >> > > > wrote in message
> >> > > > Dang. What is this cloudyness? Could it all be binder from the
> >> > > > Campden?
> >> > >
> >> > > What binder is listed on the label of your tablets?
> >> > >
> >> > Mine don't list the binder but it appears to be some sort of wax.
> >> It's
> >> > light, white and soft. It leaves a neat little ring around the top of
> >> the
> >> > carboy when I rack.
> >>
> >> Exactly. I asked the group once before what the binder in Campden
> >> tablets was, and people came up with proplyene glycol or sodium
> >> benzoate. At any rate, there are only traces of these binders in each
> >> tablet. Not likely enough for 2 tablets to cloud a gallon and a half.
> >> Besides, why did it happen now, after sugar and sorbate, and not
> >> before, when I added the tablets after every other racking?
> >>
> >> Maybe some fruit wines contain high levels of something simple (like an
> >> obscure nonfermentable sugar, or some strange acid) that doesn't like
> >> to stay dissolved in sorbate plus campden. Ah well, moot point at this
> >> point really, it SEEMS to be slowly settling out. A couple of months,
> >> and we'll see if I have to fine again.
> >>
> > What does anyone think about it being PECTIN??????
> >
> >
>
>