I just made some merlot from grapes and I am disappointed in the color
intensity. During the rigorous primary fermentation I detected an h2s odor
and therefore pressed a little early SG 1.010. The finished wine is 0.995.
The wine has gone through MLF and cold stabilization.
Was the little hiccup during primary enough to prevent full color extraction
or should I have done more?
Joe

It has everything to do with the time the wine was in contact with the
skins - how long was that? My guess is that becaues of the rigorous
fermentation, you may have not gotten enough extraction. Depending on
what you were trying to do, the 1.01 SG may even be longer than normal,
which is why I ask about the time.

Also, what temperature were you fermenting at?

Rob


Pino wrote:
> I just made some merlot from grapes and I am disappointed in the
color
> intensity. During the rigorous primary fermentation I detected an
h2s odor
> and therefore pressed a little early SG 1.010. The finished wine is
0.995.
> The wine has gone through MLF and cold stabilization.
> Was the little hiccup during primary enough to prevent full color
extraction
> or should I have done more?
> Joe

I think it fermented too quickly, and you ended up with too little time
with skin contact. For instance, I took almost 2 weeks with a slow
fermentation on pinot this year, and it is a little light (as a pinot
should be), and a zinfandel done last year which fermented in about 10
days resulted in a wine that is obviously zinfandel-colored, but not as
deep as I like.

I am aware of folks who use "pectic enzyme", which breaks down cell
walls and kinda speeds up the skin extraction process, though from what
I've tasted you get extra flavors, both good and bad, so it doesn't
always work out. I've also heard of 2-3 week ferments, and cold soaks,
where the grapes are soaked either pre- or post-fermentation on the
skins for contact times of up to a month to extract out as much color
and flavor as possible. This has to be done *very* carefully, so as
not to allow oxidation or the growth of unwanted beasties in the wine,
so you've been warned.

The good news is that, since you stopped the H2S, you still have
something drinkable! While it may not end up that great, heavy dinner
wine you wanted, you might just have a great summer sipping wine when
Chardonnay just doesn't seem the right answer.

One other word of advice, from my own experience - I actually bottled
earlier this year a kit-Merlot that seemed to be under-extracted. Be
very careful with oak, if you were thinking about using it. Mine's now
a hint of grape stuck in a 2x4. You've likely got delicate flavors as
well as delicate colors.
Good Luck, and tell us how it turns out eventually.

Rob

Pino wrote:

> I just made some merlot from grapes and I am disappointed in the color
> intensity. During the rigorous primary fermentation I detected an h2s odor
> and therefore pressed a little early SG 1.010.

What sort of cap management where you doing?

--
Charles Horslin
Kitchener and/or St.Catharines, ON

Rob

I am confused I thought a hot vigorous fermentation would get the most color
and flavor.

Am I understanding that a cooler longer fermentation would result in more
color extraction?

Joe

"Rob" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>I think it fermented too quickly, and you ended up with too little time
> with skin contact. For instance, I took almost 2 weeks with a slow
> fermentation on pinot this year, and it is a little light (as a pinot
> should be), and a zinfandel done last year which fermented in about 10
> days resulted in a wine that is obviously zinfandel-colored, but not as
> deep as I like.
>
> I am aware of folks who use "pectic enzyme", which breaks down cell
> walls and kinda speeds up the skin extraction process, though from what
> I've tasted you get extra flavors, both good and bad, so it doesn't
> always work out. I've also heard of 2-3 week ferments, and cold soaks,
> where the grapes are soaked either pre- or post-fermentation on the
> skins for contact times of up to a month to extract out as much color
> and flavor as possible. This has to be done *very* carefully, so as
> not to allow oxidation or the growth of unwanted beasties in the wine,
> so you've been warned.
>
> The good news is that, since you stopped the H2S, you still have
> something drinkable! While it may not end up that great, heavy dinner
> wine you wanted, you might just have a great summer sipping wine when
> Chardonnay just doesn't seem the right answer.
>
> One other word of advice, from my own experience - I actually bottled
> earlier this year a kit-Merlot that seemed to be under-extracted. Be
> very careful with oak, if you were thinking about using it. Mine's now
> a hint of grape stuck in a 2x4. You've likely got delicate flavors as
> well as delicate colors.
> Good Luck, and tell us how it turns out eventually.
>
> Rob
>

Not exactly. Colour is mostly extracted over the first 7-10 days of
skin contact, and the fermentation temperature does matter - the higher
the more intense the colour (of course, not too high to keep the yeast
alive). After this time the colour intensity can actually go down a
bit. In contrast, the longer the skin contact, the more tannins are
extracted.

AFAIK, the purposes of cold soak is to get good colour before tannin
extraction. It is used mainly for fruity reds that are meant to be
drunk quite young. The extended maceration (skin contact after ferment)
is used to give the extracted tannins time to polymerize - this soften
them and makes the wine more approachable, but some fruit is usually
lost in this process.

The book that you had in mind is probably Iverson's Home Winemaking
Step by Step.

I know of winemakers who do both on the same wine. I am not sure
whether that makes sense.

Pp

Rob wrote:
> If I'm wrong about this, I'm sure others will correct me (they have
> before! :-) ), but I base my comments mostly on talking with various
> professional winemakers, and a little on my own experience.
>
> Their comments were that color and flavor extraction for red-colored
> wines was more about time the must had skin contact (fermented or not
> fermented), as opposed to speed of fermentation or temperature of
> fermentation. Like I said, I am aware of winemakers who cold soak
> (pre-ferment) thier red wine musts with the skins for days or weeks
> before finally warming the must to an acceptable fermentation
> temperature, then finally perform the fermentation still on the skins
> (28 days for one particular Russian River Pinot, if you can believe
> it). I've also heard of fermenting must with skins, then instead of
> racking as the fermentation ends, introducing a continuous blanket of
> inert gas over the must to allow the skins to soak longer in the
young
> wine before pressing (I think this technique is actually taught in
one
> of the basic home winemaking books you can get at any decent store,
but
> which one it is at the moment escapes me). All this to extend the
time
> the skins are in contact with the must/wine. 6 days is short,
> especially for a wine that is thought to be a very dark-colored wine.
> Rob

Thanks, Pp, and now that you mention it, the purpose of the cold soak
was to get color/flavor with a minimum of tannins. However, I have
heard that the extended maceration is for better extraction of
components from the skins that are solvented more easily by alcohol
than water. I don't know what they are, just what I heard, but I'd
have expected color-enhancing molecules to be in that group. Finally,
Iverson's is one of the books I have, so that's likely the correct
answer for that.

I have never seen the 7-10 day color extraction reference, though - do
you have a source for that? I do have a wine-making friend who makes a
pinot-blush by taking off some of the juice after 3-4 days of soaking
and fermenting it separately, allowing the remaining must to absorb the
final color/flavor extraction from the skins, resulting in what he
considers a much darker and more flavorful wine. The color differences
between those wines would lead me to believe 7-10 days is a little
short for all the color extraction. Nonetheless, if that time period
is true, then Pino's 6 days is still on the short side, and the lack of
color would be expected.
Thanks for the education, Pp, and hope this helps, Pino.

Rob

"pp" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Not exactly. Colour is mostly extracted over the first 7-10 days of
> skin contact, and the fermentation temperature does matter - the higher
> the more intense the colour (of course, not too high to keep the yeast
> alive). After this time the colour intensity can actually go down a
> bit.

That's due to the redistribution/reabsorbtion of the pigments into the
pomace (solids).

> AFAIK, the purposes of cold soak is to get good colour before tannin
> extraction. It is used mainly for fruity reds that are meant to be
> drunk quite young. The extended maceration (skin contact after ferment)
> is used to give the extracted tannins time to polymerize - this soften
> them and makes the wine more approachable, but some fruit is usually
> lost in this process.

At first I thought you meant reduced yield of wine from the grapes - but I
now realize that you were referring to loss of fruitiness. I'm not so sure
I agree completely. I'd say it's more a trade of _bright_ fruitiness for
_depth_ of fruit.

> The book that you had in mind is probably Iverson's Home Winemaking
> Step by Step.

A book worth reading. I believe he's recently revised it.

> I know of winemakers who do both on the same wine. I am not sure
> whether that makes sense.

It _does_ make sense. The pre-fermentation cold soak gives the must a head
start on color extraction; the post fermentation maceration (which BTW
tends to cause a _decrease_ in color) facilitates polymerization of small,
harsh tannins into large, soft tannins. IOW, the objectives of the pre and
post soak are different and not mutually exclusive.

Tom S

"pp" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Not exactly. Colour is mostly extracted over the first 7-10 days of
> skin contact, and the fermentation temperature does matter - the higher
> the more intense the colour (of course, not too high to keep the yeast
> alive). After this time the colour intensity can actually go down a
> bit.

That's due to the redistribution/reabsorbtion of the pigments into the
pomace (solids).

> AFAIK, the purposes of cold soak is to get good colour before tannin
> extraction. It is used mainly for fruity reds that are meant to be
> drunk quite young. The extended maceration (skin contact after ferment)
> is used to give the extracted tannins time to polymerize - this soften
> them and makes the wine more approachable, but some fruit is usually
> lost in this process.

At first I thought you meant reduced yield of wine from the grapes - but I
now realize that you were referring to loss of fruitiness. I'm not so sure
I agree completely. I'd say it's more a trade of _bright_ fruitiness for
_depth_ of fruit.

> The book that you had in mind is probably Iverson's Home Winemaking
> Step by Step.

A book worth reading. I believe he's recently revised it.

> I know of winemakers who do both on the same wine. I am not sure
> whether that makes sense.

It _does_ make sense. The pre-fermentation cold soak gives the must a head
start on color extraction; the post fermentation maceration (which BTW
tends to cause a _decrease_ in color) facilitates polymerization of small,
harsh tannins into large, soft tannins. IOW, the objectives of the pre and
post soak are different and not mutually exclusive.

Tom S

"Rob" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I do have a wine-making friend who makes a
> pinot-blush by taking off some of the juice after 3-4 days of soaking
> and fermenting it separately, allowing the remaining must to absorb the
> final color/flavor extraction from the skins, resulting in what he
> considers a much darker and more flavorful wine.

They do that in France too. It's called saignier (sp?). Literally, it
means "bleeding". It amounts to drawing off part of the "plasma" of the
must, thereby raising the "red cell count" of the remainder.

Any winery that makes vin gris de _whatever_ is likely doing that - to the
benefit of their red wines.

Tom S

Tom S wrote:
> > I know of winemakers who do both on the same wine. I am not sure
> > whether that makes sense.
>
> It _does_ make sense. The pre-fermentation cold soak gives the must
a head
> start on color extraction; the post fermentation maceration (which
BTW
> tends to cause a _decrease_ in color) facilitates polymerization of
small,
> harsh tannins into large, soft tannins. IOW, the objectives of the
pre and
> post soak are different and not mutually exclusive.
>
> Tom S

That still doesn't quite make sense to me. Namely, it seems to me that
the extended maceration should automatically take care of the colour
extraction, so doing a cold soak before extended maceration seems
superflous. What am I missing?

Thx,

Pp

"pp" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Tom S wrote:
> > > I know of winemakers who do both on the same wine. I am not sure
> > > whether that makes sense.
> >
> > It _does_ make sense. The pre-fermentation cold soak gives the must
> a head
> > start on color extraction; the post fermentation maceration (which
> BTW
> > tends to cause a _decrease_ in color) facilitates polymerization of
> small,
> > harsh tannins into large, soft tannins. IOW, the objectives of the
> pre and
> > post soak are different and not mutually exclusive.
> >
> > Tom S
>
> That still doesn't quite make sense to me. Namely, it seems to me that
> the extended maceration should automatically take care of the colour
> extraction, so doing a cold soak before extended maceration seems
> superflous. What am I missing?
>
> Thx,
>
> Pp

Perhaps you are assuming that more color is extracted by the extended
maceration. That is not the case. Practically all the color is extracted
the first 8 or 10 days of fermentation. After ten days or so of skin
contact, the color of the liquid begins to _decrease_.
More info here http://home.att.net/~lumeisenman/chapt12.html
--
Lum
Del Mar, California, USA

"pp" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Tom S wrote:
> > > I know of winemakers who do both on the same wine. I am not sure
> > > whether that makes sense.
> >
> > It _does_ make sense. The pre-fermentation cold soak gives the must
> a head
> > start on color extraction; the post fermentation maceration (which
> BTW
> > tends to cause a _decrease_ in color) facilitates polymerization of
> small,
> > harsh tannins into large, soft tannins. IOW, the objectives of the
> pre and
> > post soak are different and not mutually exclusive.
> >
> > Tom S
>
> That still doesn't quite make sense to me. Namely, it seems to me that
> the extended maceration should automatically take care of the colour
> extraction, so doing a cold soak before extended maceration seems
> superflous. What am I missing?
>
> Thx,
>
> Pp

Perhaps you are assuming that more color is extracted by the extended
maceration. That is not the case. Practically all the color is extracted
the first 8 or 10 days of fermentation. After ten days or so of skin
contact, the color of the liquid begins to _decrease_.
More info here http://home.att.net/~lumeisenman/chapt12.html
--
Lum
Del Mar, California, USA

Lum wrote:
>
> Perhaps you are assuming that more color is extracted by the extended
> maceration. That is not the case. Practically all the color is
extracted
> the first 8 or 10 days of fermentation. After ten days or so of skin
> contact, the color of the liquid begins to _decrease_.
> More info here http://home.att.net/~lumeisenman/chapt12.html
> --
> Lum
> Del Mar, California, USA

No, I understand that colour behaves this way and that extended
maceration is not about colour but about tannins. What I don't
understand is why people do a cold soak _and_ extended maceration on
the same wine. The maceration will take longer than 8-10 days, so it
should give all colour extraction by itself, and the cold soak then
seems superfluous to me.

I also wonder if more colour would be lost in the end because the cold
soak increases the number of days of skin contact?

The only possible reason I can think of to do both on the same wine is
that the wine could maybe fermented at lower temperatures if the colour
was largely already extracted by the cold soak. But that seems pretty
isoteric.

Thx,

Pp

The best explanation I've ever heard is that cold soaking allows the
opportunity
to fix some of the color as long as a enological tannin is added. A large
amt. of
anthocyanins can be exracted during a cold soak but little tannin is
extracted. For
anthocyanin-tannin complexes to form, tannin must be supplied as an additive
(I think
I heard that oak tannins work better than grape tannins for this purpose).
Some
oxygen is also needed for this reaction to proceed. Early fixing of
anthocyaninis results
in a more stable wine color.

CHEERS!!

Aaron

"pp" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Lum wrote:
>>
>> Perhaps you are assuming that more color is extracted by the extended
>> maceration. That is not the case. Practically all the color is
> extracted
>> the first 8 or 10 days of fermentation. After ten days or so of skin
>> contact, the color of the liquid begins to _decrease_.
>> More info here http://home.att.net/~lumeisenman/chapt12.html
>> --
>> Lum
>> Del Mar, California, USA
>
> No, I understand that colour behaves this way and that extended
> maceration is not about colour but about tannins. What I don't
> understand is why people do a cold soak _and_ extended maceration on
> the same wine. The maceration will take longer than 8-10 days, so it
> should give all colour extraction by itself, and the cold soak then
> seems superfluous to me.
>
> I also wonder if more colour would be lost in the end because the cold
> soak increases the number of days of skin contact?
>
> The only possible reason I can think of to do both on the same wine is
> that the wine could maybe fermented at lower temperatures if the colour
> was largely already extracted by the cold soak. But that seems pretty
> isoteric.
>
> Thx,
>
> Pp
>

"pp" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Lum wrote:
> >
> > Perhaps you are assuming that more color is extracted by the extended
> > maceration. That is not the case. Practically all the color is
> extracted
> > the first 8 or 10 days of fermentation. After ten days or so of skin
> > contact, the color of the liquid begins to _decrease_.
> > More info here http://home.att.net/~lumeisenman/chapt12.html
> > --
> > Lum
> > Del Mar, California, USA
>
> No, I understand that colour behaves this way and that extended
> maceration is not about colour but about tannins. What I don't
> understand is why people do a cold soak _and_ extended maceration on
> the same wine. The maceration will take longer than 8-10 days, so it
> should give all colour extraction by itself, and the cold soak then
> seems superfluous to me.
>
> I also wonder if more colour would be lost in the end because the cold
> soak increases the number of days of skin contact?
>
> The only possible reason I can think of to do both on the same wine is
> that the wine could maybe fermented at lower temperatures if the colour
> was largely already extracted by the cold soak. But that seems pretty
> isoteric.
>
> Thx,
>
> Pp

Sorry, I misunderstood your first post.
Cold soaking is done on reds with poor color such as Pinot Noir. Extended
maceration is done on big, tough reds such as Cabernet Sauvignon. You have
a good point. Using both techniques on the same wine seems strange.
Do many winemakers use both procedures on the same wine?
Lum
Del Mar, California, USA