I have a question about clarifying wine. I have only made wines from
kits until now. With kits you use a fining agent such as chitosin,
isinglass, bentonite, or gelatin. But as I read recipes on the web no
one makes such comments about these agents in their recipes. Is it
better to let the wine clear on it's own over a few months racking
every month? Or does it not matter and using a fining agent after the
wine is stable is ok?. I currently have 5 batches going right now.

6 gallon Chianti Kit
3 Gallon Pumpkin
1 Gallon Apple Concentrate with added sugar.
1 Gallon Welch's Concentrate with added sugar.
1 Gallon Fresh Apple Cider with added sugar.

All of which have a specific gravity of around 1090 give or take a
little.

The apple concentrate I have added gelatin for fining and is the only
one I have that I have added any fining agent. The Chianti comes with
a isinglass or chitosin I cant remember.

What is the best way to clear the above wines and retain the most
flavor?


Thanks,

David

David,
I've never made a kit wine; all I make is wine from fruit juice, fruit,
veggies, flowers, and herbs. I don't use a fining agent unless the wine
does not clear on its own. Usually time and racking the wine off the lees
does the trick for me. That means waiting (and letting the wine bulk age)
about 7 months, and racking 2-4 times during that time period depending on
how much lees fall out. My understanding of kit wines is that it is a
specific recipe to get a good wine in a certain period of time. Certainly,
I could probably rush my batches, and some may think I do even at 7 months
(others give their wines longer aging), but it is a comfortable time period
for me and the wine seems to clear just fine. That's not to say, I have not
had to use a fining agent though. When I had a wine which wasn't clearing I
had to learn all the different ways to help it to clear - you already
know...so you're ahead of the game in my book.
Darlene
Wisconsin
"David" > wrote in message
om...
>I have a question about clarifying wine. I have only made wines from
> kits until now. With kits you use a fining agent such as chitosin,
> isinglass, bentonite, or gelatin. But as I read recipes on the web no
> one makes such comments about these agents in their recipes. Is it
> better to let the wine clear on it's own over a few months racking
> every month? Or does it not matter and using a fining agent after the
> wine is stable is ok?. I currently have 5 batches going right now.
>
> 6 gallon Chianti Kit
> 3 Gallon Pumpkin
> 1 Gallon Apple Concentrate with added sugar.
> 1 Gallon Welch's Concentrate with added sugar.
> 1 Gallon Fresh Apple Cider with added sugar.
>
> All of which have a specific gravity of around 1090 give or take a
> little.
>
> The apple concentrate I have added gelatin for fining and is the only
> one I have that I have added any fining agent. The Chianti comes with
> a isinglass or chitosin I cant remember.
>
> What is the best way to clear the above wines and retain the most
> flavor?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> David

Darlene is right. I have much the same experience. Most of my wines clear
on there own in 6 to 12 months. Kit wines would probably do the same but
they do not understand that time frame. But there are wines that are meant
to be drunk very young and those you may want to force clear so you can get
them in bottle sooner. Also, I believe it is Lum that advocates clearing
agents as actually improving taste. Maybe he will respond.

In the cases where you need to clear your wine, what do you need to use?
That depends on what is causing it to have a problem. Is it a pectin haze
or is it something else? There is no one thing that will clear everything.
When you have a problem, the trick is to not panic. Do a little research,
determine what is causing the problem, and it can be fixed. But don't worry
about it until you have a problem. Wine making should not be a hobby that
increases anxiety.

Ray

"Dar V" > wrote in message
...
> David,
> I've never made a kit wine; all I make is wine from fruit juice, fruit,
> veggies, flowers, and herbs. I don't use a fining agent unless the wine
> does not clear on its own. Usually time and racking the wine off the lees
> does the trick for me. That means waiting (and letting the wine bulk age)
> about 7 months, and racking 2-4 times during that time period depending on
> how much lees fall out. My understanding of kit wines is that it is a
> specific recipe to get a good wine in a certain period of time.
> Certainly, I could probably rush my batches, and some may think I do even
> at 7 months (others give their wines longer aging), but it is a
> comfortable time period for me and the wine seems to clear just fine.
> That's not to say, I have not had to use a fining agent though. When I
> had a wine which wasn't clearing I had to learn all the different ways to
> help it to clear - you already know...so you're ahead of the game in my
> book.
> Darlene
> Wisconsin
> "David" > wrote in message
> om...
>>I have a question about clarifying wine. I have only made wines from
>> kits until now. With kits you use a fining agent such as chitosin,
>> isinglass, bentonite, or gelatin. But as I read recipes on the web no
>> one makes such comments about these agents in their recipes. Is it
>> better to let the wine clear on it's own over a few months racking
>> every month? Or does it not matter and using a fining agent after the
>> wine is stable is ok?. I currently have 5 batches going right now.
>>
>> 6 gallon Chianti Kit
>> 3 Gallon Pumpkin
>> 1 Gallon Apple Concentrate with added sugar.
>> 1 Gallon Welch's Concentrate with added sugar.
>> 1 Gallon Fresh Apple Cider with added sugar.
>>
>> All of which have a specific gravity of around 1090 give or take a
>> little.
>>
>> The apple concentrate I have added gelatin for fining and is the only
>> one I have that I have added any fining agent. The Chianti comes with
>> a isinglass or chitosin I cant remember.
>>
>> What is the best way to clear the above wines and retain the most
>> flavor?
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> David
>
>

"Ray Calvert" > wrote in message
. com...
> Darlene is right. I have much the same experience. Most of my wines
clear
> on there own in 6 to 12 months. Kit wines would probably do the same but
> they do not understand that time frame. But there are wines that are
meant
> to be drunk very young and those you may want to force clear so you can
get
> them in bottle sooner. Also, I believe it is Lum that advocates clearing
> agents as actually improving taste. Maybe he will respond.
>
> In the cases where you need to clear your wine, what do you need to use?
> That depends on what is causing it to have a problem. Is it a pectin haze
> or is it something else? There is no one thing that will clear
everything.
> When you have a problem, the trick is to not panic. Do a little research,
> determine what is causing the problem, and it can be fixed. But don't
worry
> about it until you have a problem. Wine making should not be a hobby that
> increases anxiety.
>
> Ray

Hi Ray,

Fining materials are used to remove one or more unwanted attributes from
wine, so clarity is only one of many reasons for fining a wine. A wine
might
be fined with carbon to remove unwanted color, or with Sparkolloid to remove
a haze, or with casein to remove bitterness, or with a protein material
(gelatin, egg white, casein, etc.) to remove excessive astringency, etc.
Sometimes two or more fining materials are needed to remove a single wine
defect. At other times, a single fining agent can eliminate multiple wine
problems. For example, a murky, blush wine having excessive color might be
fined with Bentonite. The single Bentonite application might (1) remove
excessive protein and make the wine "hot" stable. It might also (2) improve
the clarity of the murky wine and (3) it might remove a small amount of the
excess color.

Wine has been made for thousands of years, and over that time many different
substances (like blood, horses hoofs, etc.) have been used as wine fining
materials. Some fining materials require special application techniques,
and each material produces a different characteristic in the wine. So,
fining wine can be a complicated issue.

Lum
Del Mar, California, USA

Darlene is right. I have much the same experience. Most of my wines clear
on there own in 6 to 12 months. Kit wines would probably do the same but
they do not understand that time frame. But there are wines that are meant
to be drunk very young and those you may want to force clear so you can get
them in bottle sooner. Also, I believe it is Lum that advocates clearing
agents as actually improving taste. Maybe he will respond.

In the cases where you need to clear your wine, what do you need to use?
That depends on what is causing it to have a problem. Is it a pectin haze
or is it something else? There is no one thing that will clear everything.
When you have a problem, the trick is to not panic. Do a little research,
determine what is causing the problem, and it can be fixed. But don't worry
about it until you have a problem. Wine making should not be a hobby that
increases anxiety.

Ray

"Dar V" > wrote in message
...
> David,
> I've never made a kit wine; all I make is wine from fruit juice, fruit,
> veggies, flowers, and herbs. I don't use a fining agent unless the wine
> does not clear on its own. Usually time and racking the wine off the lees
> does the trick for me. That means waiting (and letting the wine bulk age)
> about 7 months, and racking 2-4 times during that time period depending on
> how much lees fall out. My understanding of kit wines is that it is a
> specific recipe to get a good wine in a certain period of time.
> Certainly, I could probably rush my batches, and some may think I do even
> at 7 months (others give their wines longer aging), but it is a
> comfortable time period for me and the wine seems to clear just fine.
> That's not to say, I have not had to use a fining agent though. When I
> had a wine which wasn't clearing I had to learn all the different ways to
> help it to clear - you already know...so you're ahead of the game in my
> book.
> Darlene
> Wisconsin
> "David" > wrote in message
> om...
>>I have a question about clarifying wine. I have only made wines from
>> kits until now. With kits you use a fining agent such as chitosin,
>> isinglass, bentonite, or gelatin. But as I read recipes on the web no
>> one makes such comments about these agents in their recipes. Is it
>> better to let the wine clear on it's own over a few months racking
>> every month? Or does it not matter and using a fining agent after the
>> wine is stable is ok?. I currently have 5 batches going right now.
>>
>> 6 gallon Chianti Kit
>> 3 Gallon Pumpkin
>> 1 Gallon Apple Concentrate with added sugar.
>> 1 Gallon Welch's Concentrate with added sugar.
>> 1 Gallon Fresh Apple Cider with added sugar.
>>
>> All of which have a specific gravity of around 1090 give or take a
>> little.
>>
>> The apple concentrate I have added gelatin for fining and is the only
>> one I have that I have added any fining agent. The Chianti comes with
>> a isinglass or chitosin I cant remember.
>>
>> What is the best way to clear the above wines and retain the most
>> flavor?
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> David
>
>

David -
As mentioned by other posters, most folks who make wine from grapes
or fruit (not kits) probably use fining agents only on wine that
hasn't cleared on its own after some reasonable length of time
(probably 6 months or more). Most fresh grape wines or "country"
wines (from other fruits) will take a year or more of aging before
they are really drinkable, so the wine usually has plenty of time to
settle out and clear on its own.

However, not all fining agents are alike. Different things are
effective against different root causes. Simple example - if you've
made wine from something with a lot of natural pectin (apples, for
example) this may cause the wine to remain just a bit hazy. For this,
you would add some pectic enzyme. If the cause is something other
than pectin, though, adding pectic enzyme won't help. (It won't hurt
either - it just won't make any difference.)


As discussed on Jack Keller's excellent web site
(http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/finishin.asp), most fining agents
have either a positive or negative charge; you want to use a fining
agent whose charge is opposite of the stuff that is causing your
problem. White wines can suffer from haze caused by protein
particles. Since protein particles tend to be positively charged, use
a negatively charged fining agent (bentonite for example) to bind with
them, and help them to settle out. On the other hand, adding a
positively charged fining agent (such as gelatin) wouldn't help at
all.

Red wines tend to have a lot of tannin (negatively charged). Since
anything with a positive charge has probably already bound with some
tannin and settled out of a red wine, any remaining problem stuff is
probably also negatively charged. With whites, tannin levels are low,
so the problem source could be either positive or negative. (I
usually assume positive for the first pass.)

If I don't really know what is causing the problem (most of the
time!), I usually just try something based on whether the wine is red
or white.

Borrowing from Jack's site (again), the list would include:

Whites: bentonite, Kieselsol, tannin, yeast

Reds: Isinglass, Chitosan, Sparkolloid, gelatin, albumin, casein

In your case, I'm not sure the apple concentrate would need anything
special. The apple cider might well contain a fair amount of pectin,
so I'd add some pectic enzyme (pectinase) during fermentation or as
soon as you can. (No rush, but no reason to wait.) I wouldn't add
gelatin to either of them. If/when the apple batches failed to clear
(give them at least 4 to 6 months), I'd try bentonite first.

For the Chianti, you should just follow the directions with the kit.
(And enjoy - the inexpensive Chianti kits I make get consistently
positive reviews from family and friends.) For the others, I'd
consider them all white wines (broadly speaking) and try one fining
agent at a time (if necessary).

Happy fermenting -

Doug


> I have a question about clarifying wine. I have only made wines from
> kits until now. With kits you use a fining agent such as chitosin,
> isinglass, bentonite, or gelatin. But as I read recipes on the web no
> one makes such comments about these agents in their recipes. Is it
> better to let the wine clear on it's own over a few months racking
> every month? Or does it not matter and using a fining agent after the
> wine is stable is ok?. I currently have 5 batches going right now.
>
> 6 gallon Chianti Kit
> 3 Gallon Pumpkin
> 1 Gallon Apple Concentrate with added sugar.
> 1 Gallon Welch's Concentrate with added sugar.
> 1 Gallon Fresh Apple Cider with added sugar.
>
> All of which have a specific gravity of around 1090 give or take a
> little.
>
> The apple concentrate I have added gelatin for fining and is the only
> one I have that I have added any fining agent. The Chianti comes with
> a isinglass or chitosin I cant remember.
>
> What is the best way to clear the above wines and retain the most
> flavor?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> David

Thanks for all the info. So in essence it doesn't really matter if I use a
fining agent or not if I plan on aging the wine for more than 6 months or
so. Unless of course the wine doesn't clear in it's own.

Thanks,

David


"Doug" > wrote in message
m...
> David -
> As mentioned by other posters, most folks who make wine from grapes
> or fruit (not kits) probably use fining agents only on wine that
> hasn't cleared on its own after some reasonable length of time
> (probably 6 months or more). Most fresh grape wines or "country"
> wines (from other fruits) will take a year or more of aging before
> they are really drinkable, so the wine usually has plenty of time to
> settle out and clear on its own.
>
> However, not all fining agents are alike. Different things are
> effective against different root causes. Simple example - if you've
> made wine from something with a lot of natural pectin (apples, for
> example) this may cause the wine to remain just a bit hazy. For this,
> you would add some pectic enzyme. If the cause is something other
> than pectin, though, adding pectic enzyme won't help. (It won't hurt
> either - it just won't make any difference.)
>
>
> As discussed on Jack Keller's excellent web site
> (http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/finishin.asp), most fining agents
> have either a positive or negative charge; you want to use a fining
> agent whose charge is opposite of the stuff that is causing your
> problem. White wines can suffer from haze caused by protein
> particles. Since protein particles tend to be positively charged, use
> a negatively charged fining agent (bentonite for example) to bind with
> them, and help them to settle out. On the other hand, adding a
> positively charged fining agent (such as gelatin) wouldn't help at
> all.
>
> Red wines tend to have a lot of tannin (negatively charged). Since
> anything with a positive charge has probably already bound with some
> tannin and settled out of a red wine, any remaining problem stuff is
> probably also negatively charged. With whites, tannin levels are low,
> so the problem source could be either positive or negative. (I
> usually assume positive for the first pass.)
>
> If I don't really know what is causing the problem (most of the
> time!), I usually just try something based on whether the wine is red
> or white.
>
> Borrowing from Jack's site (again), the list would include:
>
> Whites: bentonite, Kieselsol, tannin, yeast
>
> Reds: Isinglass, Chitosan, Sparkolloid, gelatin, albumin, casein
>
> In your case, I'm not sure the apple concentrate would need anything
> special. The apple cider might well contain a fair amount of pectin,
> so I'd add some pectic enzyme (pectinase) during fermentation or as
> soon as you can. (No rush, but no reason to wait.) I wouldn't add
> gelatin to either of them. If/when the apple batches failed to clear
> (give them at least 4 to 6 months), I'd try bentonite first.
>
> For the Chianti, you should just follow the directions with the kit.
> (And enjoy - the inexpensive Chianti kits I make get consistently
> positive reviews from family and friends.) For the others, I'd
> consider them all white wines (broadly speaking) and try one fining
> agent at a time (if necessary).
>
> Happy fermenting -
>
> Doug
>
>
> > I have a question about clarifying wine. I have only made wines from
> > kits until now. With kits you use a fining agent such as chitosin,
> > isinglass, bentonite, or gelatin. But as I read recipes on the web no
> > one makes such comments about these agents in their recipes. Is it
> > better to let the wine clear on it's own over a few months racking
> > every month? Or does it not matter and using a fining agent after the
> > wine is stable is ok?. I currently have 5 batches going right now.
> >
> > 6 gallon Chianti Kit
> > 3 Gallon Pumpkin
> > 1 Gallon Apple Concentrate with added sugar.
> > 1 Gallon Welch's Concentrate with added sugar.
> > 1 Gallon Fresh Apple Cider with added sugar.
> >
> > All of which have a specific gravity of around 1090 give or take a
> > little.
> >
> > The apple concentrate I have added gelatin for fining and is the only
> > one I have that I have added any fining agent. The Chianti comes with
> > a isinglass or chitosin I cant remember.
> >
> > What is the best way to clear the above wines and retain the most
> > flavor?
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > David

One more question...

Let's say I just want my carboy back for another batch. Is there any
negative to adding the fining agent to speed up the clarification and just
aging the wine in bottles? Or is it much better to bulk age and clear
naturally? The kits tell me to age as soon as it is clear. Carboys are
pretty cheap, I wouldn't want to sacrifice my fine for a 10 dollar carboy.
But if there is no difference bottles are much easier to stick away.

Thanks,

David


"news-server.triad.rr.com" > wrote in message
m...
> Thanks for all the info. So in essence it doesn't really matter if I use
a
> fining agent or not if I plan on aging the wine for more than 6 months or
> so. Unless of course the wine doesn't clear in it's own.
>
> Thanks,
>
> David
>
>
> "Doug" > wrote in message
> m...
> > David -
> > As mentioned by other posters, most folks who make wine from grapes
> > or fruit (not kits) probably use fining agents only on wine that
> > hasn't cleared on its own after some reasonable length of time
> > (probably 6 months or more). Most fresh grape wines or "country"
> > wines (from other fruits) will take a year or more of aging before
> > they are really drinkable, so the wine usually has plenty of time to
> > settle out and clear on its own.
> >
> > However, not all fining agents are alike. Different things are
> > effective against different root causes. Simple example - if you've
> > made wine from something with a lot of natural pectin (apples, for
> > example) this may cause the wine to remain just a bit hazy. For this,
> > you would add some pectic enzyme. If the cause is something other
> > than pectin, though, adding pectic enzyme won't help. (It won't hurt
> > either - it just won't make any difference.)
> >
> >
> > As discussed on Jack Keller's excellent web site
> > (http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/finishin.asp), most fining agents
> > have either a positive or negative charge; you want to use a fining
> > agent whose charge is opposite of the stuff that is causing your
> > problem. White wines can suffer from haze caused by protein
> > particles. Since protein particles tend to be positively charged, use
> > a negatively charged fining agent (bentonite for example) to bind with
> > them, and help them to settle out. On the other hand, adding a
> > positively charged fining agent (such as gelatin) wouldn't help at
> > all.
> >
> > Red wines tend to have a lot of tannin (negatively charged). Since
> > anything with a positive charge has probably already bound with some
> > tannin and settled out of a red wine, any remaining problem stuff is
> > probably also negatively charged. With whites, tannin levels are low,
> > so the problem source could be either positive or negative. (I
> > usually assume positive for the first pass.)
> >
> > If I don't really know what is causing the problem (most of the
> > time!), I usually just try something based on whether the wine is red
> > or white.
> >
> > Borrowing from Jack's site (again), the list would include:
> >
> > Whites: bentonite, Kieselsol, tannin, yeast
> >
> > Reds: Isinglass, Chitosan, Sparkolloid, gelatin, albumin, casein
> >
> > In your case, I'm not sure the apple concentrate would need anything
> > special. The apple cider might well contain a fair amount of pectin,
> > so I'd add some pectic enzyme (pectinase) during fermentation or as
> > soon as you can. (No rush, but no reason to wait.) I wouldn't add
> > gelatin to either of them. If/when the apple batches failed to clear
> > (give them at least 4 to 6 months), I'd try bentonite first.
> >
> > For the Chianti, you should just follow the directions with the kit.
> > (And enjoy - the inexpensive Chianti kits I make get consistently
> > positive reviews from family and friends.) For the others, I'd
> > consider them all white wines (broadly speaking) and try one fining
> > agent at a time (if necessary).
> >
> > Happy fermenting -
> >
> > Doug
> >
> >
> > > I have a question about clarifying wine. I have only made wines from
> > > kits until now. With kits you use a fining agent such as chitosin,
> > > isinglass, bentonite, or gelatin. But as I read recipes on the web no
> > > one makes such comments about these agents in their recipes. Is it
> > > better to let the wine clear on it's own over a few months racking
> > > every month? Or does it not matter and using a fining agent after the
> > > wine is stable is ok?. I currently have 5 batches going right now.
> > >
> > > 6 gallon Chianti Kit
> > > 3 Gallon Pumpkin
> > > 1 Gallon Apple Concentrate with added sugar.
> > > 1 Gallon Welch's Concentrate with added sugar.
> > > 1 Gallon Fresh Apple Cider with added sugar.
> > >
> > > All of which have a specific gravity of around 1090 give or take a
> > > little.
> > >
> > > The apple concentrate I have added gelatin for fining and is the only
> > > one I have that I have added any fining agent. The Chianti comes with
> > > a isinglass or chitosin I cant remember.
> > >
> > > What is the best way to clear the above wines and retain the most
> > > flavor?
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > David
>
>

"news-server.triad.rr.com" > wrote in message
m...
> Thanks for all the info. So in essence it doesn't really matter if I use
> a
> fining agent or not if I plan on aging the wine for more than 6 months or
> so. Unless of course the wine doesn't clear in it's own.

That's a gross oversimplification. Fining isn't done only to achieve
clarity; it's best use is to improve the _flavor_, and sometimes the aroma,
of wine.

Tom S

One more question...

Let's say I just want my carboy back for another batch. Is there any
negative to adding the fining agent to speed up the clarification and just
aging the wine in bottles? Or is it much better to bulk age and clear
naturally? The kits tell me to age as soon as it is clear. Carboys are
pretty cheap, I wouldn't want to sacrifice my fine for a 10 dollar carboy.
But if there is no difference bottles are much easier to stick away.

Thanks,

David


"news-server.triad.rr.com" > wrote in message
m...
> Thanks for all the info. So in essence it doesn't really matter if I use
a
> fining agent or not if I plan on aging the wine for more than 6 months or
> so. Unless of course the wine doesn't clear in it's own.
>
> Thanks,
>
> David
>
>
> "Doug" > wrote in message
> m...
> > David -
> > As mentioned by other posters, most folks who make wine from grapes
> > or fruit (not kits) probably use fining agents only on wine that
> > hasn't cleared on its own after some reasonable length of time
> > (probably 6 months or more). Most fresh grape wines or "country"
> > wines (from other fruits) will take a year or more of aging before
> > they are really drinkable, so the wine usually has plenty of time to
> > settle out and clear on its own.
> >
> > However, not all fining agents are alike. Different things are
> > effective against different root causes. Simple example - if you've
> > made wine from something with a lot of natural pectin (apples, for
> > example) this may cause the wine to remain just a bit hazy. For this,
> > you would add some pectic enzyme. If the cause is something other
> > than pectin, though, adding pectic enzyme won't help. (It won't hurt
> > either - it just won't make any difference.)
> >
> >
> > As discussed on Jack Keller's excellent web site
> > (http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/finishin.asp), most fining agents
> > have either a positive or negative charge; you want to use a fining
> > agent whose charge is opposite of the stuff that is causing your
> > problem. White wines can suffer from haze caused by protein
> > particles. Since protein particles tend to be positively charged, use
> > a negatively charged fining agent (bentonite for example) to bind with
> > them, and help them to settle out. On the other hand, adding a
> > positively charged fining agent (such as gelatin) wouldn't help at
> > all.
> >
> > Red wines tend to have a lot of tannin (negatively charged). Since
> > anything with a positive charge has probably already bound with some
> > tannin and settled out of a red wine, any remaining problem stuff is
> > probably also negatively charged. With whites, tannin levels are low,
> > so the problem source could be either positive or negative. (I
> > usually assume positive for the first pass.)
> >
> > If I don't really know what is causing the problem (most of the
> > time!), I usually just try something based on whether the wine is red
> > or white.
> >
> > Borrowing from Jack's site (again), the list would include:
> >
> > Whites: bentonite, Kieselsol, tannin, yeast
> >
> > Reds: Isinglass, Chitosan, Sparkolloid, gelatin, albumin, casein
> >
> > In your case, I'm not sure the apple concentrate would need anything
> > special. The apple cider might well contain a fair amount of pectin,
> > so I'd add some pectic enzyme (pectinase) during fermentation or as
> > soon as you can. (No rush, but no reason to wait.) I wouldn't add
> > gelatin to either of them. If/when the apple batches failed to clear
> > (give them at least 4 to 6 months), I'd try bentonite first.
> >
> > For the Chianti, you should just follow the directions with the kit.
> > (And enjoy - the inexpensive Chianti kits I make get consistently
> > positive reviews from family and friends.) For the others, I'd
> > consider them all white wines (broadly speaking) and try one fining
> > agent at a time (if necessary).
> >
> > Happy fermenting -
> >
> > Doug
> >
> >
> > > I have a question about clarifying wine. I have only made wines from
> > > kits until now. With kits you use a fining agent such as chitosin,
> > > isinglass, bentonite, or gelatin. But as I read recipes on the web no
> > > one makes such comments about these agents in their recipes. Is it
> > > better to let the wine clear on it's own over a few months racking
> > > every month? Or does it not matter and using a fining agent after the
> > > wine is stable is ok?. I currently have 5 batches going right now.
> > >
> > > 6 gallon Chianti Kit
> > > 3 Gallon Pumpkin
> > > 1 Gallon Apple Concentrate with added sugar.
> > > 1 Gallon Welch's Concentrate with added sugar.
> > > 1 Gallon Fresh Apple Cider with added sugar.
> > >
> > > All of which have a specific gravity of around 1090 give or take a
> > > little.
> > >
> > > The apple concentrate I have added gelatin for fining and is the only
> > > one I have that I have added any fining agent. The Chianti comes with
> > > a isinglass or chitosin I cant remember.
> > >
> > > What is the best way to clear the above wines and retain the most
> > > flavor?
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > David
>
>

One more question...

Let's say I just want my carboy back for another batch. Is there any
negative to adding the fining agent to speed up the clarification and just
aging the wine in bottles? Or is it much better to bulk age and clear
naturally? The kits tell me to age as soon as it is clear. Carboys are
pretty cheap, I wouldn't want to sacrifice my fine for a 10 dollar carboy.
But if there is no difference bottles are much easier to stick away.

Thanks,

David


"news-server.triad.rr.com" > wrote in message
m...
> Thanks for all the info. So in essence it doesn't really matter if I use
a
> fining agent or not if I plan on aging the wine for more than 6 months or
> so. Unless of course the wine doesn't clear in it's own.
>
> Thanks,
>
> David
>
>
> "Doug" > wrote in message
> m...
> > David -
> > As mentioned by other posters, most folks who make wine from grapes
> > or fruit (not kits) probably use fining agents only on wine that
> > hasn't cleared on its own after some reasonable length of time
> > (probably 6 months or more). Most fresh grape wines or "country"
> > wines (from other fruits) will take a year or more of aging before
> > they are really drinkable, so the wine usually has plenty of time to
> > settle out and clear on its own.
> >
> > However, not all fining agents are alike. Different things are
> > effective against different root causes. Simple example - if you've
> > made wine from something with a lot of natural pectin (apples, for
> > example) this may cause the wine to remain just a bit hazy. For this,
> > you would add some pectic enzyme. If the cause is something other
> > than pectin, though, adding pectic enzyme won't help. (It won't hurt
> > either - it just won't make any difference.)
> >
> >
> > As discussed on Jack Keller's excellent web site
> > (http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/finishin.asp), most fining agents
> > have either a positive or negative charge; you want to use a fining
> > agent whose charge is opposite of the stuff that is causing your
> > problem. White wines can suffer from haze caused by protein
> > particles. Since protein particles tend to be positively charged, use
> > a negatively charged fining agent (bentonite for example) to bind with
> > them, and help them to settle out. On the other hand, adding a
> > positively charged fining agent (such as gelatin) wouldn't help at
> > all.
> >
> > Red wines tend to have a lot of tannin (negatively charged). Since
> > anything with a positive charge has probably already bound with some
> > tannin and settled out of a red wine, any remaining problem stuff is
> > probably also negatively charged. With whites, tannin levels are low,
> > so the problem source could be either positive or negative. (I
> > usually assume positive for the first pass.)
> >
> > If I don't really know what is causing the problem (most of the
> > time!), I usually just try something based on whether the wine is red
> > or white.
> >
> > Borrowing from Jack's site (again), the list would include:
> >
> > Whites: bentonite, Kieselsol, tannin, yeast
> >
> > Reds: Isinglass, Chitosan, Sparkolloid, gelatin, albumin, casein
> >
> > In your case, I'm not sure the apple concentrate would need anything
> > special. The apple cider might well contain a fair amount of pectin,
> > so I'd add some pectic enzyme (pectinase) during fermentation or as
> > soon as you can. (No rush, but no reason to wait.) I wouldn't add
> > gelatin to either of them. If/when the apple batches failed to clear
> > (give them at least 4 to 6 months), I'd try bentonite first.
> >
> > For the Chianti, you should just follow the directions with the kit.
> > (And enjoy - the inexpensive Chianti kits I make get consistently
> > positive reviews from family and friends.) For the others, I'd
> > consider them all white wines (broadly speaking) and try one fining
> > agent at a time (if necessary).
> >
> > Happy fermenting -
> >
> > Doug
> >
> >
> > > I have a question about clarifying wine. I have only made wines from
> > > kits until now. With kits you use a fining agent such as chitosin,
> > > isinglass, bentonite, or gelatin. But as I read recipes on the web no
> > > one makes such comments about these agents in their recipes. Is it
> > > better to let the wine clear on it's own over a few months racking
> > > every month? Or does it not matter and using a fining agent after the
> > > wine is stable is ok?. I currently have 5 batches going right now.
> > >
> > > 6 gallon Chianti Kit
> > > 3 Gallon Pumpkin
> > > 1 Gallon Apple Concentrate with added sugar.
> > > 1 Gallon Welch's Concentrate with added sugar.
> > > 1 Gallon Fresh Apple Cider with added sugar.
> > >
> > > All of which have a specific gravity of around 1090 give or take a
> > > little.
> > >
> > > The apple concentrate I have added gelatin for fining and is the only
> > > one I have that I have added any fining agent. The Chianti comes with
> > > a isinglass or chitosin I cant remember.
> > >
> > > What is the best way to clear the above wines and retain the most
> > > flavor?
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > David
>
>

"news-server.triad.rr.com" > wrote in message
m...
> Thanks for all the info. So in essence it doesn't really matter if I use
> a
> fining agent or not if I plan on aging the wine for more than 6 months or
> so. Unless of course the wine doesn't clear in it's own.

That's a gross oversimplification. Fining isn't done only to achieve
clarity; it's best use is to improve the _flavor_, and sometimes the aroma,
of wine.

Tom S

Thanks for all the info. So in essence it doesn't really matter if I use a
fining agent or not if I plan on aging the wine for more than 6 months or
so. Unless of course the wine doesn't clear in it's own.

Thanks,

David


"Doug" > wrote in message
m...
> David -
> As mentioned by other posters, most folks who make wine from grapes
> or fruit (not kits) probably use fining agents only on wine that
> hasn't cleared on its own after some reasonable length of time
> (probably 6 months or more). Most fresh grape wines or "country"
> wines (from other fruits) will take a year or more of aging before
> they are really drinkable, so the wine usually has plenty of time to
> settle out and clear on its own.
>
> However, not all fining agents are alike. Different things are
> effective against different root causes. Simple example - if you've
> made wine from something with a lot of natural pectin (apples, for
> example) this may cause the wine to remain just a bit hazy. For this,
> you would add some pectic enzyme. If the cause is something other
> than pectin, though, adding pectic enzyme won't help. (It won't hurt
> either - it just won't make any difference.)
>
>
> As discussed on Jack Keller's excellent web site
> (http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/finishin.asp), most fining agents
> have either a positive or negative charge; you want to use a fining
> agent whose charge is opposite of the stuff that is causing your
> problem. White wines can suffer from haze caused by protein
> particles. Since protein particles tend to be positively charged, use
> a negatively charged fining agent (bentonite for example) to bind with
> them, and help them to settle out. On the other hand, adding a
> positively charged fining agent (such as gelatin) wouldn't help at
> all.
>
> Red wines tend to have a lot of tannin (negatively charged). Since
> anything with a positive charge has probably already bound with some
> tannin and settled out of a red wine, any remaining problem stuff is
> probably also negatively charged. With whites, tannin levels are low,
> so the problem source could be either positive or negative. (I
> usually assume positive for the first pass.)
>
> If I don't really know what is causing the problem (most of the
> time!), I usually just try something based on whether the wine is red
> or white.
>
> Borrowing from Jack's site (again), the list would include:
>
> Whites: bentonite, Kieselsol, tannin, yeast
>
> Reds: Isinglass, Chitosan, Sparkolloid, gelatin, albumin, casein
>
> In your case, I'm not sure the apple concentrate would need anything
> special. The apple cider might well contain a fair amount of pectin,
> so I'd add some pectic enzyme (pectinase) during fermentation or as
> soon as you can. (No rush, but no reason to wait.) I wouldn't add
> gelatin to either of them. If/when the apple batches failed to clear
> (give them at least 4 to 6 months), I'd try bentonite first.
>
> For the Chianti, you should just follow the directions with the kit.
> (And enjoy - the inexpensive Chianti kits I make get consistently
> positive reviews from family and friends.) For the others, I'd
> consider them all white wines (broadly speaking) and try one fining
> agent at a time (if necessary).
>
> Happy fermenting -
>
> Doug
>
>
> > I have a question about clarifying wine. I have only made wines from
> > kits until now. With kits you use a fining agent such as chitosin,
> > isinglass, bentonite, or gelatin. But as I read recipes on the web no
> > one makes such comments about these agents in their recipes. Is it
> > better to let the wine clear on it's own over a few months racking
> > every month? Or does it not matter and using a fining agent after the
> > wine is stable is ok?. I currently have 5 batches going right now.
> >
> > 6 gallon Chianti Kit
> > 3 Gallon Pumpkin
> > 1 Gallon Apple Concentrate with added sugar.
> > 1 Gallon Welch's Concentrate with added sugar.
> > 1 Gallon Fresh Apple Cider with added sugar.
> >
> > All of which have a specific gravity of around 1090 give or take a
> > little.
> >
> > The apple concentrate I have added gelatin for fining and is the only
> > one I have that I have added any fining agent. The Chianti comes with
> > a isinglass or chitosin I cant remember.
> >
> > What is the best way to clear the above wines and retain the most
> > flavor?
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > David

Thanks for all the info. So in essence it doesn't really matter if I use a
fining agent or not if I plan on aging the wine for more than 6 months or
so. Unless of course the wine doesn't clear in it's own.

Thanks,

David


"Doug" > wrote in message
m...
> David -
> As mentioned by other posters, most folks who make wine from grapes
> or fruit (not kits) probably use fining agents only on wine that
> hasn't cleared on its own after some reasonable length of time
> (probably 6 months or more). Most fresh grape wines or "country"
> wines (from other fruits) will take a year or more of aging before
> they are really drinkable, so the wine usually has plenty of time to
> settle out and clear on its own.
>
> However, not all fining agents are alike. Different things are
> effective against different root causes. Simple example - if you've
> made wine from something with a lot of natural pectin (apples, for
> example) this may cause the wine to remain just a bit hazy. For this,
> you would add some pectic enzyme. If the cause is something other
> than pectin, though, adding pectic enzyme won't help. (It won't hurt
> either - it just won't make any difference.)
>
>
> As discussed on Jack Keller's excellent web site
> (http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/finishin.asp), most fining agents
> have either a positive or negative charge; you want to use a fining
> agent whose charge is opposite of the stuff that is causing your
> problem. White wines can suffer from haze caused by protein
> particles. Since protein particles tend to be positively charged, use
> a negatively charged fining agent (bentonite for example) to bind with
> them, and help them to settle out. On the other hand, adding a
> positively charged fining agent (such as gelatin) wouldn't help at
> all.
>
> Red wines tend to have a lot of tannin (negatively charged). Since
> anything with a positive charge has probably already bound with some
> tannin and settled out of a red wine, any remaining problem stuff is
> probably also negatively charged. With whites, tannin levels are low,
> so the problem source could be either positive or negative. (I
> usually assume positive for the first pass.)
>
> If I don't really know what is causing the problem (most of the
> time!), I usually just try something based on whether the wine is red
> or white.
>
> Borrowing from Jack's site (again), the list would include:
>
> Whites: bentonite, Kieselsol, tannin, yeast
>
> Reds: Isinglass, Chitosan, Sparkolloid, gelatin, albumin, casein
>
> In your case, I'm not sure the apple concentrate would need anything
> special. The apple cider might well contain a fair amount of pectin,
> so I'd add some pectic enzyme (pectinase) during fermentation or as
> soon as you can. (No rush, but no reason to wait.) I wouldn't add
> gelatin to either of them. If/when the apple batches failed to clear
> (give them at least 4 to 6 months), I'd try bentonite first.
>
> For the Chianti, you should just follow the directions with the kit.
> (And enjoy - the inexpensive Chianti kits I make get consistently
> positive reviews from family and friends.) For the others, I'd
> consider them all white wines (broadly speaking) and try one fining
> agent at a time (if necessary).
>
> Happy fermenting -
>
> Doug
>
>
> > I have a question about clarifying wine. I have only made wines from
> > kits until now. With kits you use a fining agent such as chitosin,
> > isinglass, bentonite, or gelatin. But as I read recipes on the web no
> > one makes such comments about these agents in their recipes. Is it
> > better to let the wine clear on it's own over a few months racking
> > every month? Or does it not matter and using a fining agent after the
> > wine is stable is ok?. I currently have 5 batches going right now.
> >
> > 6 gallon Chianti Kit
> > 3 Gallon Pumpkin
> > 1 Gallon Apple Concentrate with added sugar.
> > 1 Gallon Welch's Concentrate with added sugar.
> > 1 Gallon Fresh Apple Cider with added sugar.
> >
> > All of which have a specific gravity of around 1090 give or take a
> > little.
> >
> > The apple concentrate I have added gelatin for fining and is the only
> > one I have that I have added any fining agent. The Chianti comes with
> > a isinglass or chitosin I cant remember.
> >
> > What is the best way to clear the above wines and retain the most
> > flavor?
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > David

David -
As mentioned by other posters, most folks who make wine from grapes
or fruit (not kits) probably use fining agents only on wine that
hasn't cleared on its own after some reasonable length of time
(probably 6 months or more). Most fresh grape wines or "country"
wines (from other fruits) will take a year or more of aging before
they are really drinkable, so the wine usually has plenty of time to
settle out and clear on its own.

However, not all fining agents are alike. Different things are
effective against different root causes. Simple example - if you've
made wine from something with a lot of natural pectin (apples, for
example) this may cause the wine to remain just a bit hazy. For this,
you would add some pectic enzyme. If the cause is something other
than pectin, though, adding pectic enzyme won't help. (It won't hurt
either - it just won't make any difference.)


As discussed on Jack Keller's excellent web site
(http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/finishin.asp), most fining agents
have either a positive or negative charge; you want to use a fining
agent whose charge is opposite of the stuff that is causing your
problem. White wines can suffer from haze caused by protein
particles. Since protein particles tend to be positively charged, use
a negatively charged fining agent (bentonite for example) to bind with
them, and help them to settle out. On the other hand, adding a
positively charged fining agent (such as gelatin) wouldn't help at
all.

Red wines tend to have a lot of tannin (negatively charged). Since
anything with a positive charge has probably already bound with some
tannin and settled out of a red wine, any remaining problem stuff is
probably also negatively charged. With whites, tannin levels are low,
so the problem source could be either positive or negative. (I
usually assume positive for the first pass.)

If I don't really know what is causing the problem (most of the
time!), I usually just try something based on whether the wine is red
or white.

Borrowing from Jack's site (again), the list would include:

Whites: bentonite, Kieselsol, tannin, yeast

Reds: Isinglass, Chitosan, Sparkolloid, gelatin, albumin, casein

In your case, I'm not sure the apple concentrate would need anything
special. The apple cider might well contain a fair amount of pectin,
so I'd add some pectic enzyme (pectinase) during fermentation or as
soon as you can. (No rush, but no reason to wait.) I wouldn't add
gelatin to either of them. If/when the apple batches failed to clear
(give them at least 4 to 6 months), I'd try bentonite first.

For the Chianti, you should just follow the directions with the kit.
(And enjoy - the inexpensive Chianti kits I make get consistently
positive reviews from family and friends.) For the others, I'd
consider them all white wines (broadly speaking) and try one fining
agent at a time (if necessary).

Happy fermenting -

Doug


> I have a question about clarifying wine. I have only made wines from
> kits until now. With kits you use a fining agent such as chitosin,
> isinglass, bentonite, or gelatin. But as I read recipes on the web no
> one makes such comments about these agents in their recipes. Is it
> better to let the wine clear on it's own over a few months racking
> every month? Or does it not matter and using a fining agent after the
> wine is stable is ok?. I currently have 5 batches going right now.
>
> 6 gallon Chianti Kit
> 3 Gallon Pumpkin
> 1 Gallon Apple Concentrate with added sugar.
> 1 Gallon Welch's Concentrate with added sugar.
> 1 Gallon Fresh Apple Cider with added sugar.
>
> All of which have a specific gravity of around 1090 give or take a
> little.
>
> The apple concentrate I have added gelatin for fining and is the only
> one I have that I have added any fining agent. The Chianti comes with
> a isinglass or chitosin I cant remember.
>
> What is the best way to clear the above wines and retain the most
> flavor?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> David