My apologies in advance for the length of this post. I just don't
think there is any way to get it down to 25 words or less.

I have been making kits (couple of dozen, mostly BK/Winexpert) for
several years now. I've made a few batches from locally-grown hybrid
wine grapes, but as I live in Minnesota, there aren't very many
varieties that will survive here, and few places that sell them to
amateurs like me. I've even bought grapes from Brehm Vineyards (very
nice, very pricey). I've done a few fruit wines (cranberry, apple,
mead). But mostly I've been making kits.

A lot of other folks have commented that white wine kits can rival
most of what is available from commercial sources, but that red kits
just don't seem to develop the same bouquet and depth of flavor as
commercial (fermented on the skins) wines. I haven't noticed the
"cooked" flavor that some folks seem to find in kit wines, but I agree
that the red kits (4-week, 6-week, super premium, you name it) all
seem to come out tasting pretty similar, and just don't seem to
develop much bouquet or depth.

There are a few kits out there that include a small amount of actual
grapes with the kit. I made the Cellar Craft Rosso Fortissimo kit a
couple of years ago (the first such I've run across) and it was a nice
enough kit, but again just not much character to it (after 1-2 years
of bottle aging).

I am taking the plunge again this year and ordering several pails of
red grapes from Brehm (Cab. Sauvignon, Cab. Franc and Merlot). In
order to get the most out of that rather substantial investment, my
first thought was to do a second run with the Brehm skins, after
draining off the first run juice. I've done that before, and it makes
a nice (but fairly light) red wine. After thinking about it more,
however, I am inclined to try adding those skins/seeds to a kit wine,
as a way to give the kit more body and character.

In searching the newsgroup archives, I ran across comments several
years ago from Ed Goist about having good results from adding wine
grapes to kits (but without any details). I found lots of posts
complaining about various kits, and lots of folks advocating making
the 6-gallon kits to 5 gallons, adding raisins, bananas, elderberries,
etc. But almost nothing about adding wine grapes (from Brehm or other
sources).

My latest scheme is to buy two fairly good "6-week" kits (say, the
Winexpert Selection Cabernet Sauvignon) from the same batch, mix them
up to standard strength, and split them into four 3-gallon batches.
Keep one plain as a "control", and add to each of the others the
skins/seeds from one Brehm pail. One of those will be Cab. Sauvignon,
which should be no problem, and the other two (if they have much
impact at all) should produce a Meritage-type of blend. I'm doing
3-gallon batches, as I think that larger containers are less
susceptible to stray factors that could affect the end-product, and
(more importantly) if I like the results, I want to have more than
just 4 or 5 bottles of it.

So, at long last, the punch line. Has anyone else tried this approach
to "pump-up" a red kit, and (if so) with what general results? In
your (personal and biased) opinion is this a reasonable alternative to
making a second-run wine by adding water, sugar and acid? Does it
yield better results than other techniques for "improving" kits?

I would be happy to post my (subjective) results in due course.

Sorry again for the length. I look forward to lots of informative
responses. :-)


Doug

Doug,

I've been adding pressed grape skins to my red kits for the past 2
years with good results. There is an obvious difference between kits
made with and without the skins, with the ones made with the skins
being my favorite. The tannins are more pronounced, the wines are
more unique (if you use different skins), it adds flavor dimensions,
it will keep longer and the color seems to be a bit stronger. You
won't need to add yeast as there are plenty of yeast cells on the
skins/pomace.

The downside is that the wine takes much longer to be drinkable and
there is more work involved in the process...a small price to pay for
better wine.

You can also freeze the skins/pomace in suitable freezer storage bags.
I have used skins that were in the freezer for a year...and the yeast
cells were still viable. Remember to remove most of the air in the
bag...this seems to limit freezer burn.

Good luck,
David
Denver, CO USA

(Doug) wrote in message om>...
> My apologies in advance for the length of this post. I just don't
> think there is any way to get it down to 25 words or less.
>
> I have been making kits (couple of dozen, mostly BK/Winexpert) for
> several years now. I've made a few batches from locally-grown hybrid
> wine grapes, but as I live in Minnesota, there aren't very many
> varieties that will survive here, and few places that sell them to
> amateurs like me. I've even bought grapes from Brehm Vineyards (very
> nice, very pricey). I've done a few fruit wines (cranberry, apple,
> mead). But mostly I've been making kits.
>
> A lot of other folks have commented that white wine kits can rival
> most of what is available from commercial sources, but that red kits
> just don't seem to develop the same bouquet and depth of flavor as
> commercial (fermented on the skins) wines. I haven't noticed the
> "cooked" flavor that some folks seem to find in kit wines, but I agree
> that the red kits (4-week, 6-week, super premium, you name it) all
> seem to come out tasting pretty similar, and just don't seem to
> develop much bouquet or depth.
>
> There are a few kits out there that include a small amount of actual
> grapes with the kit. I made the Cellar Craft Rosso Fortissimo kit a
> couple of years ago (the first such I've run across) and it was a nice
> enough kit, but again just not much character to it (after 1-2 years
> of bottle aging).
>
> I am taking the plunge again this year and ordering several pails of
> red grapes from Brehm (Cab. Sauvignon, Cab. Franc and Merlot). In
> order to get the most out of that rather substantial investment, my
> first thought was to do a second run with the Brehm skins, after
> draining off the first run juice. I've done that before, and it makes
> a nice (but fairly light) red wine. After thinking about it more,
> however, I am inclined to try adding those skins/seeds to a kit wine,
> as a way to give the kit more body and character.
>
> In searching the newsgroup archives, I ran across comments several
> years ago from Ed Goist about having good results from adding wine
> grapes to kits (but without any details). I found lots of posts
> complaining about various kits, and lots of folks advocating making
> the 6-gallon kits to 5 gallons, adding raisins, bananas, elderberries,
> etc. But almost nothing about adding wine grapes (from Brehm or other
> sources).
>
> My latest scheme is to buy two fairly good "6-week" kits (say, the
> Winexpert Selection Cabernet Sauvignon) from the same batch, mix them
> up to standard strength, and split them into four 3-gallon batches.
> Keep one plain as a "control", and add to each of the others the
> skins/seeds from one Brehm pail. One of those will be Cab. Sauvignon,
> which should be no problem, and the other two (if they have much
> impact at all) should produce a Meritage-type of blend. I'm doing
> 3-gallon batches, as I think that larger containers are less
> susceptible to stray factors that could affect the end-product, and
> (more importantly) if I like the results, I want to have more than
> just 4 or 5 bottles of it.
>
> So, at long last, the punch line. Has anyone else tried this approach
> to "pump-up" a red kit, and (if so) with what general results? In
> your (personal and biased) opinion is this a reasonable alternative to
> making a second-run wine by adding water, sugar and acid? Does it
> yield better results than other techniques for "improving" kits?
>
> I would be happy to post my (subjective) results in due course.
>
> Sorry again for the length. I look forward to lots of informative
> responses. :-)
>
>
> Doug

Doug,

I've been adding pressed grape skins to my red kits for the past 2
years with good results. There is an obvious difference between kits
made with and without the skins, with the ones made with the skins
being my favorite. The tannins are more pronounced, the wines are
more unique (if you use different skins), it adds flavor dimensions,
it will keep longer and the color seems to be a bit stronger. You
won't need to add yeast as there are plenty of yeast cells on the
skins/pomace.

The downside is that the wine takes much longer to be drinkable and
there is more work involved in the process...a small price to pay for
better wine.

You can also freeze the skins/pomace in suitable freezer storage bags.
I have used skins that were in the freezer for a year...and the yeast
cells were still viable. Remember to remove most of the air in the
bag...this seems to limit freezer burn.

Good luck,
David
Denver, CO USA

(Doug) wrote in message om>...
> My apologies in advance for the length of this post. I just don't
> think there is any way to get it down to 25 words or less.
>
> I have been making kits (couple of dozen, mostly BK/Winexpert) for
> several years now. I've made a few batches from locally-grown hybrid
> wine grapes, but as I live in Minnesota, there aren't very many
> varieties that will survive here, and few places that sell them to
> amateurs like me. I've even bought grapes from Brehm Vineyards (very
> nice, very pricey). I've done a few fruit wines (cranberry, apple,
> mead). But mostly I've been making kits.
>
> A lot of other folks have commented that white wine kits can rival
> most of what is available from commercial sources, but that red kits
> just don't seem to develop the same bouquet and depth of flavor as
> commercial (fermented on the skins) wines. I haven't noticed the
> "cooked" flavor that some folks seem to find in kit wines, but I agree
> that the red kits (4-week, 6-week, super premium, you name it) all
> seem to come out tasting pretty similar, and just don't seem to
> develop much bouquet or depth.
>
> There are a few kits out there that include a small amount of actual
> grapes with the kit. I made the Cellar Craft Rosso Fortissimo kit a
> couple of years ago (the first such I've run across) and it was a nice
> enough kit, but again just not much character to it (after 1-2 years
> of bottle aging).
>
> I am taking the plunge again this year and ordering several pails of
> red grapes from Brehm (Cab. Sauvignon, Cab. Franc and Merlot). In
> order to get the most out of that rather substantial investment, my
> first thought was to do a second run with the Brehm skins, after
> draining off the first run juice. I've done that before, and it makes
> a nice (but fairly light) red wine. After thinking about it more,
> however, I am inclined to try adding those skins/seeds to a kit wine,
> as a way to give the kit more body and character.
>
> In searching the newsgroup archives, I ran across comments several
> years ago from Ed Goist about having good results from adding wine
> grapes to kits (but without any details). I found lots of posts
> complaining about various kits, and lots of folks advocating making
> the 6-gallon kits to 5 gallons, adding raisins, bananas, elderberries,
> etc. But almost nothing about adding wine grapes (from Brehm or other
> sources).
>
> My latest scheme is to buy two fairly good "6-week" kits (say, the
> Winexpert Selection Cabernet Sauvignon) from the same batch, mix them
> up to standard strength, and split them into four 3-gallon batches.
> Keep one plain as a "control", and add to each of the others the
> skins/seeds from one Brehm pail. One of those will be Cab. Sauvignon,
> which should be no problem, and the other two (if they have much
> impact at all) should produce a Meritage-type of blend. I'm doing
> 3-gallon batches, as I think that larger containers are less
> susceptible to stray factors that could affect the end-product, and
> (more importantly) if I like the results, I want to have more than
> just 4 or 5 bottles of it.
>
> So, at long last, the punch line. Has anyone else tried this approach
> to "pump-up" a red kit, and (if so) with what general results? In
> your (personal and biased) opinion is this a reasonable alternative to
> making a second-run wine by adding water, sugar and acid? Does it
> yield better results than other techniques for "improving" kits?
>
> I would be happy to post my (subjective) results in due course.
>
> Sorry again for the length. I look forward to lots of informative
> responses. :-)
>
>
> Doug

Doug,

I've been adding pressed grape skins to my red kits for the past 2
years with good results. There is an obvious difference between kits
made with and without the skins, with the ones made with the skins
being my favorite. The tannins are more pronounced, the wines are
more unique (if you use different skins), it adds flavor dimensions,
it will keep longer and the color seems to be a bit stronger. You
won't need to add yeast as there are plenty of yeast cells on the
skins/pomace.

The downside is that the wine takes much longer to be drinkable and
there is more work involved in the process...a small price to pay for
better wine.

You can also freeze the skins/pomace in suitable freezer storage bags.
I have used skins that were in the freezer for a year...and the yeast
cells were still viable. Remember to remove most of the air in the
bag...this seems to limit freezer burn.

Good luck,
David
Denver, CO USA

(Doug) wrote in message om>...
> My apologies in advance for the length of this post. I just don't
> think there is any way to get it down to 25 words or less.
>
> I have been making kits (couple of dozen, mostly BK/Winexpert) for
> several years now. I've made a few batches from locally-grown hybrid
> wine grapes, but as I live in Minnesota, there aren't very many
> varieties that will survive here, and few places that sell them to
> amateurs like me. I've even bought grapes from Brehm Vineyards (very
> nice, very pricey). I've done a few fruit wines (cranberry, apple,
> mead). But mostly I've been making kits.
>
> A lot of other folks have commented that white wine kits can rival
> most of what is available from commercial sources, but that red kits
> just don't seem to develop the same bouquet and depth of flavor as
> commercial (fermented on the skins) wines. I haven't noticed the
> "cooked" flavor that some folks seem to find in kit wines, but I agree
> that the red kits (4-week, 6-week, super premium, you name it) all
> seem to come out tasting pretty similar, and just don't seem to
> develop much bouquet or depth.
>
> There are a few kits out there that include a small amount of actual
> grapes with the kit. I made the Cellar Craft Rosso Fortissimo kit a
> couple of years ago (the first such I've run across) and it was a nice
> enough kit, but again just not much character to it (after 1-2 years
> of bottle aging).
>
> I am taking the plunge again this year and ordering several pails of
> red grapes from Brehm (Cab. Sauvignon, Cab. Franc and Merlot). In
> order to get the most out of that rather substantial investment, my
> first thought was to do a second run with the Brehm skins, after
> draining off the first run juice. I've done that before, and it makes
> a nice (but fairly light) red wine. After thinking about it more,
> however, I am inclined to try adding those skins/seeds to a kit wine,
> as a way to give the kit more body and character.
>
> In searching the newsgroup archives, I ran across comments several
> years ago from Ed Goist about having good results from adding wine
> grapes to kits (but without any details). I found lots of posts
> complaining about various kits, and lots of folks advocating making
> the 6-gallon kits to 5 gallons, adding raisins, bananas, elderberries,
> etc. But almost nothing about adding wine grapes (from Brehm or other
> sources).
>
> My latest scheme is to buy two fairly good "6-week" kits (say, the
> Winexpert Selection Cabernet Sauvignon) from the same batch, mix them
> up to standard strength, and split them into four 3-gallon batches.
> Keep one plain as a "control", and add to each of the others the
> skins/seeds from one Brehm pail. One of those will be Cab. Sauvignon,
> which should be no problem, and the other two (if they have much
> impact at all) should produce a Meritage-type of blend. I'm doing
> 3-gallon batches, as I think that larger containers are less
> susceptible to stray factors that could affect the end-product, and
> (more importantly) if I like the results, I want to have more than
> just 4 or 5 bottles of it.
>
> So, at long last, the punch line. Has anyone else tried this approach
> to "pump-up" a red kit, and (if so) with what general results? In
> your (personal and biased) opinion is this a reasonable alternative to
> making a second-run wine by adding water, sugar and acid? Does it
> yield better results than other techniques for "improving" kits?
>
> I would be happy to post my (subjective) results in due course.
>
> Sorry again for the length. I look forward to lots of informative
> responses. :-)
>
>
> Doug

Doug,
It's a good idea. I do that with pailed reds, have for a few years.
This year I added 40 pounds of Merlot grapes to 12 gallons of pailed
Cab Sauv and skins from 40 pounds of Grenache to to 12 gallons of
pailed Syrah.

Ed is from Youngstown, I'm from Pittsburgh. We are pretty close to
one another, we share the same suppliers. Ed grows too, I don't.
Joe




(Doug) wrote in message om>...
> My apologies in advance for the length of this post. I just don't
> think there is any way to get it down to 25 words or less.
>
> I have been making kits (couple of dozen, mostly BK/Winexpert) for
> several years now. I've made a few batches from locally-grown hybrid
> wine grapes, but as I live in Minnesota, there aren't very many
> varieties that will survive here, and few places that sell them to
> amateurs like me. I've even bought grapes from Brehm Vineyards (very
> nice, very pricey). I've done a few fruit wines (cranberry, apple,
> mead). But mostly I've been making kits.
>
> A lot of other folks have commented that white wine kits can rival
> most of what is available from commercial sources, but that red kits
> just don't seem to develop the same bouquet and depth of flavor as
> commercial (fermented on the skins) wines. I haven't noticed the
> "cooked" flavor that some folks seem to find in kit wines, but I agree
> that the red kits (4-week, 6-week, super premium, you name it) all
> seem to come out tasting pretty similar, and just don't seem to
> develop much bouquet or depth.
>
> There are a few kits out there that include a small amount of actual
> grapes with the kit. I made the Cellar Craft Rosso Fortissimo kit a
> couple of years ago (the first such I've run across) and it was a nice
> enough kit, but again just not much character to it (after 1-2 years
> of bottle aging).
>
> I am taking the plunge again this year and ordering several pails of
> red grapes from Brehm (Cab. Sauvignon, Cab. Franc and Merlot). In
> order to get the most out of that rather substantial investment, my
> first thought was to do a second run with the Brehm skins, after
> draining off the first run juice. I've done that before, and it makes
> a nice (but fairly light) red wine. After thinking about it more,
> however, I am inclined to try adding those skins/seeds to a kit wine,
> as a way to give the kit more body and character.
>
> In searching the newsgroup archives, I ran across comments several
> years ago from Ed Goist about having good results from adding wine
> grapes to kits (but without any details). I found lots of posts
> complaining about various kits, and lots of folks advocating making
> the 6-gallon kits to 5 gallons, adding raisins, bananas, elderberries,
> etc. But almost nothing about adding wine grapes (from Brehm or other
> sources).
>
> My latest scheme is to buy two fairly good "6-week" kits (say, the
> Winexpert Selection Cabernet Sauvignon) from the same batch, mix them
> up to standard strength, and split them into four 3-gallon batches.
> Keep one plain as a "control", and add to each of the others the
> skins/seeds from one Brehm pail. One of those will be Cab. Sauvignon,
> which should be no problem, and the other two (if they have much
> impact at all) should produce a Meritage-type of blend. I'm doing
> 3-gallon batches, as I think that larger containers are less
> susceptible to stray factors that could affect the end-product, and
> (more importantly) if I like the results, I want to have more than
> just 4 or 5 bottles of it.
>
> So, at long last, the punch line. Has anyone else tried this approach
> to "pump-up" a red kit, and (if so) with what general results? In
> your (personal and biased) opinion is this a reasonable alternative to
> making a second-run wine by adding water, sugar and acid? Does it
> yield better results than other techniques for "improving" kits?
>
> I would be happy to post my (subjective) results in due course.
>
> Sorry again for the length. I look forward to lots of informative
> responses. :-)
>
>
> Doug

Doug,
It's a good idea. I do that with pailed reds, have for a few years.
This year I added 40 pounds of Merlot grapes to 12 gallons of pailed
Cab Sauv and skins from 40 pounds of Grenache to to 12 gallons of
pailed Syrah.

Ed is from Youngstown, I'm from Pittsburgh. We are pretty close to
one another, we share the same suppliers. Ed grows too, I don't.
Joe




(Doug) wrote in message om>...
> My apologies in advance for the length of this post. I just don't
> think there is any way to get it down to 25 words or less.
>
> I have been making kits (couple of dozen, mostly BK/Winexpert) for
> several years now. I've made a few batches from locally-grown hybrid
> wine grapes, but as I live in Minnesota, there aren't very many
> varieties that will survive here, and few places that sell them to
> amateurs like me. I've even bought grapes from Brehm Vineyards (very
> nice, very pricey). I've done a few fruit wines (cranberry, apple,
> mead). But mostly I've been making kits.
>
> A lot of other folks have commented that white wine kits can rival
> most of what is available from commercial sources, but that red kits
> just don't seem to develop the same bouquet and depth of flavor as
> commercial (fermented on the skins) wines. I haven't noticed the
> "cooked" flavor that some folks seem to find in kit wines, but I agree
> that the red kits (4-week, 6-week, super premium, you name it) all
> seem to come out tasting pretty similar, and just don't seem to
> develop much bouquet or depth.
>
> There are a few kits out there that include a small amount of actual
> grapes with the kit. I made the Cellar Craft Rosso Fortissimo kit a
> couple of years ago (the first such I've run across) and it was a nice
> enough kit, but again just not much character to it (after 1-2 years
> of bottle aging).
>
> I am taking the plunge again this year and ordering several pails of
> red grapes from Brehm (Cab. Sauvignon, Cab. Franc and Merlot). In
> order to get the most out of that rather substantial investment, my
> first thought was to do a second run with the Brehm skins, after
> draining off the first run juice. I've done that before, and it makes
> a nice (but fairly light) red wine. After thinking about it more,
> however, I am inclined to try adding those skins/seeds to a kit wine,
> as a way to give the kit more body and character.
>
> In searching the newsgroup archives, I ran across comments several
> years ago from Ed Goist about having good results from adding wine
> grapes to kits (but without any details). I found lots of posts
> complaining about various kits, and lots of folks advocating making
> the 6-gallon kits to 5 gallons, adding raisins, bananas, elderberries,
> etc. But almost nothing about adding wine grapes (from Brehm or other
> sources).
>
> My latest scheme is to buy two fairly good "6-week" kits (say, the
> Winexpert Selection Cabernet Sauvignon) from the same batch, mix them
> up to standard strength, and split them into four 3-gallon batches.
> Keep one plain as a "control", and add to each of the others the
> skins/seeds from one Brehm pail. One of those will be Cab. Sauvignon,
> which should be no problem, and the other two (if they have much
> impact at all) should produce a Meritage-type of blend. I'm doing
> 3-gallon batches, as I think that larger containers are less
> susceptible to stray factors that could affect the end-product, and
> (more importantly) if I like the results, I want to have more than
> just 4 or 5 bottles of it.
>
> So, at long last, the punch line. Has anyone else tried this approach
> to "pump-up" a red kit, and (if so) with what general results? In
> your (personal and biased) opinion is this a reasonable alternative to
> making a second-run wine by adding water, sugar and acid? Does it
> yield better results than other techniques for "improving" kits?
>
> I would be happy to post my (subjective) results in due course.
>
> Sorry again for the length. I look forward to lots of informative
> responses. :-)
>
>
> Doug

Thanks for the encouragement. I expect the greater the effect of the
grapes, the longer it will take for the wine to really mature. But it
sure seems like it's worth a try. If I lived closer to someplace like
Pittsburgh, I probably wouldn't feel compelled to try this, but I
haven't had any luck so far, finding a place within 500 miles that
sells real wine grapes. Brehm (though good) is just 'way too
expensive to use for most of my wines.

Doug