Hi Folks

I am thinking of buying the 135 gallon fermenter from www.morebeer.com. Does
anyone have any idea how I would degass this volume? I don't think my whizz
stick will do it !

Paul

Try a vacuum pump. You can buy a small diagphram pump at a hardware store,
and hook up a line to the feremented batch. Many on-premise wineries do it
to avoid having to wait sever weeks for the wine to go flat. If you
subscribe to WineMaker magazine, check out, Pump Up Your Winemaking (Feb,
2004). There's an article in there that describes how to degas your wine,
etc.

NOTE: make sure your wine had been filtered, or fined, or is free of
sediment before dagassing with a vacuum pump. You'll end up with a cloudy
mess that'll stay in there for weeks or months.

Even so, other than letting it go still on its own for a year or two, that's
your alternative.

Jeff


"Dr Paul Dowrick" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Folks
>
> I am thinking of buying the 135 gallon fermenter from www.morebeer.com.
Does
> anyone have any idea how I would degass this volume? I don't think my
whizz
> stick will do it !
>
> Paul

Jeff Chorniak wrote:
> Try a vacuum pump.


Careful! On a thinwall tank you may well collapse the sidewall. They're
designed to resist outward pressure, not inward. Think of the strength
of a 2 liter soda bottle against bursting vs. how easy it is to deform
it with your fingers. No experience to go by, just some basic engineering.

--


Mike MTM, Cokesbury, New Jersey, USA

"Dr Paul Dowrick" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Folks
>
> I am thinking of buying the 135 gallon fermenter from www.morebeer.com.
Does
> anyone have any idea how I would degass this volume? I don't think my
whizz
> stick will do it !
>
> Paul

Hi Paul,
I have never heard the term "degassing" used in a commercial winery (in this
context). Wineries use pumps to rack from tank to tank. Pumps produce a
negative pressure on the suction line, and the negative pressure
automatically removes dissolved carbon dioxide from the wine. You probably
will use a pump to handle 135 gallon lots, so you may not have a "degassing"
problem.
Good luck,
Lum
Del Mar, California, USA

135 gallons is a lot of weight already on the inside wall, pushing outwards.
We're naturally assuming that the wall is thick enough to withstand the
pressure of that weight from within. Therefore, we're also assuming the
amount of low pressure on the upper air surface (created by the gentle pump)
is minimal (just enough to draw trapped gasses to the surface and suck them
out: it only takes a -1 lb/sq in. less than ambient over a period of several
hours to do the trick), while the actual weight of 135 gallons of fluid
keeps the outward pressure on the wall to prevent collapse (implosion).

Even so, Lum's posting below probably has a point if you're already using a
transfer pump. If you're racking or transferring with gravity (as some
wineries do), then a pump may still be an alternative option, in the way Lum
mentioned.

Whatever pump you choose, it will be a good idea to research the physics of
it all (and maybe experiment with a tank of water first).

Jeff




"MikeMTM" > wrote in message
s.com...
> Jeff Chorniak wrote:
> > Try a vacuum pump.
>
>
> Careful! On a thinwall tank you may well collapse the sidewall. They're
> designed to resist outward pressure, not inward. Think of the strength
> of a 2 liter soda bottle against bursting vs. how easy it is to deform
> it with your fingers. No experience to go by, just some basic engineering.
>
> --
>
>
> Mike MTM, Cokesbury, New Jersey, USA
>
>
>

"Dr Paul Dowrick" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Folks
>
> I am thinking of buying the 135 gallon fermenter from www.morebeer.com.
Does
> anyone have any idea how I would degass this volume? I don't think my
whizz
> stick will do it !

If you barrel age the wine, that problem will disappear. BTW, I wouldn't
even _think_ of applying vacuum to a tank. It'd collapse for sure.

Tom S

Jeff Chorniak ) wrote:
>135 gallons is a lot of weight already on the inside wall, pushing outwards.
>We're naturally assuming that the wall is thick enough to withstand the
>pressure of that weight from within. Therefore, we're also assuming the
>amount of low pressure on the upper air surface (created by the gentle pump)
>is minimal (just enough to draw trapped gasses to the surface and suck them
>out: it only takes a -1 lb/sq in. less than ambient over a period of several
>hours to do the trick), while the actual weight of 135 gallons of fluid
>keeps the outward pressure on the wall to prevent collapse (implosion).

>Even so, Lum's posting below probably has a point if you're already using a
>transfer pump. If you're racking or transferring with gravity (as some
>wineries do), then a pump may still be an alternative option, in the way Lum
>mentioned.

>Whatever pump you choose, it will be a good idea to research the physics of
>it all (and maybe experiment with a tank of water first).

>Jeff

I've seen collapsed tanks in wineries where the winemaker forgot to
open the tank before pumping out of it. I wouldn't try to de-gas
that way.

In some instances I have had to de-gas large volumes of wine, in
particular rieslings which were not fermented completely dry, and so
were kept at 35F or so from the time they reached the residual sugar
I wanted, normally in October or November until February or March
when I bottled them. If the wines have too much residual CO2,
they're really hard to bottle, so the way we de-gassed them was to
open the top of the tank, run a hose from the bottom valve to the
pump (with a rubber impeller moving the wine), and then another
hose in the top of the tank and back into the wine. We'd then pump
the wine until the impeller no longer drove CO2 out of solution.


Dave
************************************************** **************************
Dave Breeden

I stand corrected.

Degassing from large stainless steel must be different from degassing from
small glass. We used to degass between 2 and 10 carboys at a time, on a
single pump over an 8 hour period to completely flatten the wine. In the
four years I worked at this place there was never even a hint of implosion.
I'm not there now, but they're still doing it that way with a 100 percent
success rate.

I'm not a physisist, and those with experience with higher volumes in steel
must be the wiser.

Personally, I've always been in favor of time and bulk ageing (as already
mentioned), in oak, or whatever. It's gentler on the wine anyways.

Even so, if you bottle with a simple enolmatic bottler which works on a
vacuum principle to draw the wine from the carboy, there is a certain level
of degassing taking place even as your bottle is being filled. But if the
wine is terribly gassy at bottling time, I don't think the Enolmatic will do
a thorough job.

In the long run, probably the best way to degas wine is the way everyone's
been doing it for hundreds of years. Just let it sit there for months and
drink beer while you'r waiting.

Jeff


"David C Breeden" > wrote in message
...
> Jeff Chorniak ) wrote:
> >135 gallons is a lot of weight already on the inside wall, pushing
outwards.
> >We're naturally assuming that the wall is thick enough to withstand the
> >pressure of that weight from within. Therefore, we're also assuming the
> >amount of low pressure on the upper air surface (created by the gentle
pump)
> >is minimal (just enough to draw trapped gasses to the surface and suck
them
> >out: it only takes a -1 lb/sq in. less than ambient over a period of
several
> >hours to do the trick), while the actual weight of 135 gallons of fluid
> >keeps the outward pressure on the wall to prevent collapse (implosion).
>
> >Even so, Lum's posting below probably has a point if you're already using
a
> >transfer pump. If you're racking or transferring with gravity (as some
> >wineries do), then a pump may still be an alternative option, in the way
Lum
> >mentioned.
>
> >Whatever pump you choose, it will be a good idea to research the physics
of
> >it all (and maybe experiment with a tank of water first).
>
> >Jeff
>
> I've seen collapsed tanks in wineries where the winemaker forgot to
> open the tank before pumping out of it. I wouldn't try to de-gas
> that way.
>
> In some instances I have had to de-gas large volumes of wine, in
> particular rieslings which were not fermented completely dry, and so
> were kept at 35F or so from the time they reached the residual sugar
> I wanted, normally in October or November until February or March
> when I bottled them. If the wines have too much residual CO2,
> they're really hard to bottle, so the way we de-gassed them was to
> open the top of the tank, run a hose from the bottom valve to the
> pump (with a rubber impeller moving the wine), and then another
> hose in the top of the tank and back into the wine. We'd then pump
> the wine until the impeller no longer drove CO2 out of solution.
>
>
> Dave
>
************************************************** **************************
> Dave Breeden

"Jeff Chorniak" > wrote in message
able.rogers.com...
>
> Even so, if you bottle with a simple enolmatic bottler which works on a
> vacuum principle to draw the wine from the carboy, there is a certain
level
> of degassing taking place even as your bottle is being filled. But if the
> wine is terribly gassy at bottling time, I don't think the Enolmatic will
do
> a thorough job.
>
No, but I use my Enolmatic for degassing by bypassing the bottling arm and
using the pump to evacuate the headspace. A half hour seems plenty to remove
a substantial portion of dissolved CO2, even in a cold fermented white.

Brian

Jeff Chorniak ) wrote:
>I stand corrected.

>Degassing from large stainless steel must be different from degassing from
>small glass. We used to degass between 2 and 10 carboys at a time, on a
>single pump over an 8 hour period to completely flatten the wine. In the
>four years I worked at this place there was never even a hint of implosion.
>I'm not there now, but they're still doing it that way with a 100 percent
>success rate.

>I'm not a physisist, and those with experience with higher volumes in steel
>must be the wiser.

<snip>

I'm not acutally sure that degassing in the way that you suggest,
by sucking on the headspace above the wine, would implode a tank. It
might be okay. What DOES implode atank is leaving the top vents all
sealed, and starting to suck wine from the bottom of the tank.
Someone with more knowledge of the physical world than I can probably
explain it better, but pulling all that liquid out creates a
tremendous vacumm, more than, I think, you could create by just
sucking on the headspace.

Bad to find out the hard way, though.

--
Dave
************************************************** **************************
Dave Breeden

Brian,

Could you describe in more detail how you do this? I have an Enolmatic and
love bottling with it, and have struggled with my last two batches of white
wine that I cold fermented to get them to degas adequately - it would be
great to use my Enolmatic to do it.

Thanks,

Ed

"Brian Lundeen" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jeff Chorniak" > wrote in message
> able.rogers.com...
> >
> > Even so, if you bottle with a simple enolmatic bottler which works on a
> > vacuum principle to draw the wine from the carboy, there is a certain
> level
> > of degassing taking place even as your bottle is being filled. But if
the
> > wine is terribly gassy at bottling time, I don't think the Enolmatic
will
> do
> > a thorough job.
> >
> No, but I use my Enolmatic for degassing by bypassing the bottling arm and
> using the pump to evacuate the headspace. A half hour seems plenty to
remove
> a substantial portion of dissolved CO2, even in a cold fermented white.
>
> Brian
>
>

"David C Breeden" > wrote in message
...
> I'm not acutally sure that degassing in the way that you suggest,
> by sucking on the headspace above the wine, would implode a tank. It
> might be okay. What DOES implode atank is leaving the top vents all
> sealed, and starting to suck wine from the bottom of the tank.
> Someone with more knowledge of the physical world than I can probably
> explain it better, but pulling all that liquid out creates a
> tremendous vacumm, more than, I think, you could create by just
> sucking on the headspace.

The vacuum you can create in the headspace doesn't depend on where the
sucking out takes place. The maximum vacuum depends on the vapor pressure
of the wine, which is ~20mm of Mercury. Subtract that from 760mm, which is
atmospheric pressure and that's the maximum pressure on the _outside_ of the
tank. That's just short of 15 pounds per square inch. Over the area of the
top of the tank that can amount to a substantial force. If the tank is 3
feet in diameter e.g., that amounts to a maximum force of 7½ _TONS_!

> Bad to find out the hard way, though.

You've got _that_ right!

Tom S

i would assume then, that you simply run a longer tube from the resevoir to
the bung (bypassing the arm, as you say)?, or do you run a tube directly
from the pump intake?

(I'm guessing you still use the resevoir as a buffer, right?)

Jeff

"Ed Marks" > wrote in message
...
> Brian,
>
> Could you describe in more detail how you do this? I have an Enolmatic
and
> love bottling with it, and have struggled with my last two batches of
white
> wine that I cold fermented to get them to degas adequately - it would be
> great to use my Enolmatic to do it.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ed
>
> "Brian Lundeen" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Jeff Chorniak" > wrote in message
> > able.rogers.com...
> > >
> > > Even so, if you bottle with a simple enolmatic bottler which works on
a
> > > vacuum principle to draw the wine from the carboy, there is a certain
> > level
> > > of degassing taking place even as your bottle is being filled. But if
> the
> > > wine is terribly gassy at bottling time, I don't think the Enolmatic
> will
> > do
> > > a thorough job.
> > >
> > No, but I use my Enolmatic for degassing by bypassing the bottling arm
and
> > using the pump to evacuate the headspace. A half hour seems plenty to
> remove
> > a substantial portion of dissolved CO2, even in a cold fermented white.
> >
> > Brian
> >
> >
>
>

"Lum" > wrote in message
news
> Hi Paul,
> I have never heard the term "degassing" used in a commercial winery (in
this
> context). Wineries use pumps to rack from tank to tank. Pumps produce a
Lum,

We do however correct CO2 levels, and the usual way to reduce them is to
sparge with a low volume of nitrogen. This does cause some flavour
stripping (but I'd think that a vacuum does worse).

Cheers,

Andrew

"Andrew L Drumm" > wrote in message
...
> "Lum" > wrote in message
> news
> > Hi Paul,
> > I have never heard the term "degassing" used in a commercial winery (in
> this
> > context). Wineries use pumps to rack from tank to tank. Pumps produce
a
> Lum,
>
> We do however correct CO2 levels, and the usual way to reduce them is to
> sparge with a low volume of nitrogen. This does cause some flavour
> stripping (but I'd think that a vacuum does worse).
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andrew

Andrew,
Thank you for the post.
I do testing for several small, local wineries. By the time a wine has been
racked two or three times and filtered once or twice, the CO2 content is low
and it is seldom an issue.
Are you using CO2 in the headspace?
Some wineries like spritzy white wines. Are you deliberately maintaining
high CO2 levels and then adjusting down to near the tax limit at bottling
time?
Regards,
Lum
Del Mar, California, USA

"Lum" > wrote in message
...
> Andrew,
> Thank you for the post.
> I do testing for several small, local wineries. By the time a wine has
been
> racked two or three times and filtered once or twice, the CO2 content is
low
> and it is seldom an issue.
> Are you using CO2 in the headspace?

Yes, we're maintaining CO2 gas cover on our tanks. I'd like to use argon,
but it's too expensive.
I am more concerned about oxygen pickup than high CO2 levels, therefore I
use the nitrogen method to reduce CO2 prior to bottling.
> Some wineries like spritzy white wines. Are you deliberately maintaining
> high CO2 levels and then adjusting down to near the tax limit at bottling
> time?
Not tax limits, as they don't apply to us in Oz. Instead we have high levels
because of gas cover, and reduce to get the right taste.

"Andrew L Drumm" > wrote in message
...
> "Lum" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Andrew,
> > Thank you for the post.
> > I do testing for several small, local wineries. By the time a wine has
> been
> > racked two or three times and filtered once or twice, the CO2 content is
> low
> > and it is seldom an issue.
> > Are you using CO2 in the headspace?
>
> Yes, we're maintaining CO2 gas cover on our tanks. I'd like to use argon,
> but it's too expensive.
> I am more concerned about oxygen pickup than high CO2 levels, therefore I
> use the nitrogen method to reduce CO2 prior to bottling.
> > Some wineries like spritzy white wines. Are you deliberately
maintaining
> > high CO2 levels and then adjusting down to near the tax limit at
bottling
> > time?
> Not tax limits, as they don't apply to us in Oz. Instead we have high
levels
> because of gas cover, and reduce to get the right taste.
>

Thanks for the reply Andrew. I appreciate the information.

"Jeff Chorniak" > wrote in message
. cable.rogers.com...
> i would assume then, that you simply run a longer tube from the resevoir
to
> the bung (bypassing the arm, as you say)?, or do you run a tube directly
> from the pump intake?
>
> (I'm guessing you still use the resevoir as a buffer, right?)
>
I don't use the reservoir, I just hook up the pump intake directly.

The carboy has a 3 piece airlock (without the "dancing hat") with some
tubing running off the central stem. This interfaces to the smaller diameter
hose that comes off the pump intake that normally connects to the reservoir.
You have to work out a coupler for that, I have a klugy setup that would not
set a good example. ;-)

I give myself lots of headspace because the gas will cause a lot of foaming.
This usually involves drawing off a pint or so and keeping that in reserve
until the degassing is over. I also have an anti-foam compound that helps.
Start the vacuum setting low, there will be a lot of gas coming off in the
initial stages. As it winds down, you can turn the vacuum up.

Towards the end, I feel safe leaving it unattended, but not at the start.

Brian

Thanks Brian - I'll have to give that a try.

Ed

"Brian Lundeen" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jeff Chorniak" > wrote in message
> . cable.rogers.com...
> > i would assume then, that you simply run a longer tube from the resevoir
> to
> > the bung (bypassing the arm, as you say)?, or do you run a tube directly
> > from the pump intake?
> >
> > (I'm guessing you still use the resevoir as a buffer, right?)
> >
> I don't use the reservoir, I just hook up the pump intake directly.
>
> The carboy has a 3 piece airlock (without the "dancing hat") with some
> tubing running off the central stem. This interfaces to the smaller
diameter
> hose that comes off the pump intake that normally connects to the
reservoir.
> You have to work out a coupler for that, I have a klugy setup that would
not
> set a good example. ;-)
>
> I give myself lots of headspace because the gas will cause a lot of
foaming.
> This usually involves drawing off a pint or so and keeping that in reserve
> until the degassing is over. I also have an anti-foam compound that helps.
> Start the vacuum setting low, there will be a lot of gas coming off in the
> initial stages. As it winds down, you can turn the vacuum up.
>
> Towards the end, I feel safe leaving it unattended, but not at the start.
>
> Brian
>
>

I bet youdda had fun working for Capone back in the 20's. I can just
picture that.

--
billb
"I used to wonder how people could possibly listen to the "Grateful
Dead," then I realized, 'hey, they're all stoned," then it all made
sense. Now, Python (Monty) was different, yes, they were on dope
obviously, but they were funny enough that you didn't mind.