Hello All,

I just got finished my first batch of mulberry wine and I must say I was
pleasantly surprised with both its flavor and potency. It built up my ego
enough to go ahead and try to make another batch of wine.

I try to make wine with whatever I have available on the property. Being
in Florida in the spring time the orange trees produced quite a bit of
fruit. In particular I used Valencia oranges.

Below is the recipe I used along with questions about primary
fermentation.

Recipe:

The juice of 25 medium sized Valencia oranges
The zest of 5 Valencia oranges
1 1/2 gallons of water
4 lbs of sugar
2 packets of Montrachet red start yeast
2 tsp of yeast nutrient(Fermax)

Process:

1. I juiced all 25 oranges which gave me 1 gallon of juice

2. I double filtered the pulp out of the juice leaving me with about 7/8th
of a gallon of juice

3. I set this aside in a pitcher and then zested 5 orange peels being
careful to only get the orange part of the zest.

4. I mixed the zest with the water and slowly mixed 2 lbs of sugar while
bringing the mixture to a slow boil.

5. Once it boiled I lowered the heat and let it simmer for 25 minutes

6. When this mixture reached room temperature, I mixed in the orange juice
that I set aside. I measured the SG it came out to be 1.060.

NOTE: This is where I deviated from the recipe a bit. The original recipe
called for using a yeast starter of 2 packets of yeast mixed with water, and
sugar spread onto a piece of toast to get things started. I felt this was a
bit gross and thought I would try another type of yeast starter.

7. I took 1/2 cup of water at 100 degs F and rehydrated 2 packets of
montrochet yeast for 30 minutes.

8. Once things seem hydrated a half hour later I added a pinch of yeast
nutrient and two tsp of sugar.

9. I waited and watched the starter bloom into life.

10. About an hour and a half later I noticed that the activity was dying
down so I added 1oz of must.

11. A half hour later I noticed that the starter had bloomed to life again.

12. I also noticed that I had forgot to add the yeast nutrient to the pot of
must so I added 2tsp of yeast nutrient.

13. I went to bed and 6 hours later when I woke I added the yeast starter to
the must and went to work.

14. I came home 10 hours later and stirred the mixture, and noticed not must
of a yeasty smell but alot of fizzing when I stirred the mixture.

QUESTIONS:

1. Is there a problem with my primary fermentation?

2. Should I just wait a day or two and see?

3. Is it possible that an SG of 1.060 is too high for the yeast?

4. Can I restart a possible stuck fermentation by slowly acclimating the
yeast culture to the strong sugary must?

Any help or suggestions would be great.
Thanks
Mike T.

"Michael Thompson" > wrote in message . com>...
>
> QUESTIONS:
>
> 1. Is there a problem with my primary fermentation?

Doesn't sound like it. The fizzing sounds like CO2 being produced.
>
> 2. Should I just wait a day or two and see?

It could finish by then. Take a hydrometer reading to see how it's
doing.

>
> 3. Is it possible that an SG of 1.060 is too high for the yeast?

I don't think so. That's only about 8% ABV. Shouldn't be a problem.
>
> 4. Can I restart a possible stuck fermentation by slowly acclimating the
> yeast culture to the strong sugary must?

You could, but it doesn't sound like you have to.
>
> Any help or suggestions would be great.

First, you really only need one packet of yeast. Especially for only
2.5 - 3 gallons of must. Glad you skipped the toast part, but that
should probably tell you something about the recipe in general.

Dry yeast should be rehydrated in plain water for about 15 minutes for
optimum cell count. After that, the yeast starts depleting it's stored
energy supply and it's time to give it some food. I usually just pitch
the rehydrated yeast on top of the must but will feed it sugar and
yeast nutrient if the must isn't ready yet.

There really is no reason to make a yeast starter 6 hours before
you're going to pitch unless you're piching to a larg volume of must
and need to let the yeast grow first. In that case, 6 hours isn't long
enough.

Personally, I don't see any reason to boil anything, but that's just
me.

The potential alcohol is a but pretty low. Is there a reason the
recipe called for 4 pounds of sugar but you only used 2? I think using
the other 2 (or 1.5) would bring your alcohol into better range and
help preserve the wine.


Andy

"Michael Thompson" > wrote in message
om...

<snip>..................

> QUESTIONS:
>
> 3. Is it possible that an SG of 1.060 is too high for the yeast?
>
> Mike T.
>

<snip>.............

No. In fact this is much too low !! In order for a wine to keep
without refridgeration, the end alcohol should be at _least_9%ABV.
1.060 will only produce ~7.8%ABV. Suggest you bring the SG up
to about 1.075 at least. This will give you about 9.9%ABV and
allow a little lee way in case you add something later that might
dilute the wine (like sweetener).

If it has already started to ferment, just add 6 ounces of sugar *per
US gallon* to make this adjustment. HTH

Fred, I would agree with you but there are a number of kits on the market
now that make wine in the 6-7% range. I have made several of them and they
have no trouble keeping unrefrigerated for at least a year. None have
survived beyond that.

Mike, if you are going to raise the alcohol level, and Fred's comments are
all good, I would draw off some of the existing wine and just add the proper
amount of sugar to it, stirring until dissolved, and then add it back rather
than adding water that would dilute the fruit.

My grandparents had 8 huge mulberry trees, 14-18 in. in diameter whose limbs
all grew together. Us kids would climb from tree to tree eating the mellow
fruit. I wish I had access to them now. ;o(

Ray

"frederick ploegman" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Michael Thompson" > wrote in message
> om...
>
> <snip>..................
>
> > QUESTIONS:
> >
> > 3. Is it possible that an SG of 1.060 is too high for the yeast?
> >
> > Mike T.
> >
>
> <snip>.............
>
> No. In fact this is much too low !! In order for a wine to keep
> without refridgeration, the end alcohol should be at _least_9%ABV.
> 1.060 will only produce ~7.8%ABV. Suggest you bring the SG up
> to about 1.075 at least. This will give you about 9.9%ABV and
> allow a little lee way in case you add something later that might
> dilute the wine (like sweetener).
>
> If it has already started to ferment, just add 6 ounces of sugar *per
> US gallon* to make this adjustment. HTH
>
>

Thank you all for your suggestions. I'm glad to see that a group like this
can come together and queue great ideas for making great wine.

I'll attempt to reply to everyone's coments and questions in this one post
so please bear with me.

>? Please check out Jack's homemade
>.wine site. He goes through how to deal with a stuck ferment, plus a lot
of
>other helpful info. http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/index.asp

Darlene, I oringally got the idea of dealing with a stuck fermentation from
Jack's site. In fact it was his site and personal advice that got me through
my first batch of wine (The mulberry wine). Looks as if his website is a
popular resource.

>Glad you skipped the toast part, but that
>should probably tell you something about the recipe in general.

Andy, The recipe was an old one, some of them dating back several hundred
years. I obtained it in a book about wine and fokelore. The book was
actually printed sometime in the early 60's. I read up on it a bit and then
looked at a similar recipe on Jack Keller's site to make sure the basic
ingredients were the same and they seemed to be minus the toast of course.
IMHO the only toast that should be associeted with wine is one with a glass
in the air

>The potential alcohol is a but pretty low. Is there a reason the
>recipe called for 4 pounds of sugar but you only used 2?

Once again I refer back to Jack's wonderful site. In my original mulberry
wine recipe I added half the sugar during primary fermentation. Let the
yeast chew on that the entire primary period of four days. Before I racked
into the secondary I added the remaining sugar. I plan to do the same thing
with the orange wine.

I'm certainly no expert on the matter but in my mind's eye I pictured the
yeast eating up as much sugar as it could in the primary period, so I
figured I would save the second half of the sugar for the fermentation that
makes alcohol. Also with being new to all this I read somewhere that its
possible for yeast to get stuck when the sugar levels are too high. Not
knowing what this level was for the strain of yeast I was using I tasted the
must and decided it too sweet for me to bear and figured the yeast would
feel the same way.

>If it has already started to ferment, just add 6 ounces of sugar *per
>US gallon* to make this adjustment. HTH

Frederick, As stated above I plan to add the remaining sugar at racking to
the secondary. As for the fermentation being stuck. Well I must admit my
alarmism was a bit premature. When I came home from work tonight the mixture
was fizzing heavily and there was a distinct yeastie smell much stronger
then before. So I think everything is working fine.

My primary concern with things being "off" so to speak, was that I seen no
heavy layer on top of the fermenting must. Pondering this after a good
nite's sleep I relized that there would very likely not be one seeing as I
filtered the must so well.

I was used to thinking in terms of fermentation of heavy fruit pulp like in
the mulberry wine.

>My grandparents had 8 huge mulberry trees, 14-18 in. in diameter whose
limbs
>all grew together. Us kids would climb from tree to tree eating the mellow
>fruit. I wish I had access to them now. ;o(

Ray, you certainly bring back memories from my own childhood. Where I grew
up in New Jersey our house was built on an area that used to be an orchard
for various types of fruits. One of them being mulberries. We had many trees
on our little 1/4 acre lot and like you I can remember climbing those trees
being filled with birds and sharing the fruit with them. Many a Bobwhite and
Robin would often join me in a little mid-day snack.

When I ended up buying a home here in Osteen Florida there were alot of
fruit trees on the land. One of which was this little mulberry tree I
beleive its a Japaniese variety since it grows more like a bush then a tall
tree that you and I are used to seeing.

To get back to the point though. I believe everything is fermenting
correctly. It seems with every batch of wine, I start to learn a little
more. Right now I have a batch finishing up in the fridge that I started
last year made from Welches frozen concentrate. (Again a visit to Jack
Keller's site provided a gold mine for this one). Next to the current batch
of orange wine I have a 1 gallon batch of Mulberry Mead(Morat?) I started a
day before the orange wine. In another month or two I'm going to get another
batch of Mulberry wine going when they all get ripe and then hopefully a
shot at fig wine if the squirles don't get them all first

Thanks Again All, and I hope to read many other fine posts in here in the
future.
Mike T.

Michael,
You can't go wrong with Jack's site. My 2 citrus wines threw a lot of
sediment, but then again I didn't strain. You have a lot of options in
Florida, so good luck. I live in Wisconsin, so the winter months get slow,
but I do freeze fruits and vegeas for use in the winter. I have about 10
(or 11)1 gallon batches going right now - mainly fruit wines and Welch's
grape juice wines with a mix of flower and vegea wines. I too, started with
1 gallon, then two, then...well...I think you get the picture.
Darlene

"Michael Thompson" > wrote in message
. com...
> Thank you all for your suggestions. I'm glad to see that a group like this
> can come together and queue great ideas for making great wine.
>
> I'll attempt to reply to everyone's coments and questions in this one post
> so please bear with me.
>
> >? Please check out Jack's homemade
> >.wine site. He goes through how to deal with a stuck ferment, plus a lot
> of
> >other helpful info. http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/index.asp
>
> Darlene, I oringally got the idea of dealing with a stuck fermentation
from
> Jack's site. In fact it was his site and personal advice that got me
through
> my first batch of wine (The mulberry wine). Looks as if his website is a
> popular resource.
>
> >Glad you skipped the toast part, but that
> >should probably tell you something about the recipe in general.
>
> Andy, The recipe was an old one, some of them dating back several hundred
> years. I obtained it in a book about wine and fokelore. The book was
> actually printed sometime in the early 60's. I read up on it a bit and
then
> looked at a similar recipe on Jack Keller's site to make sure the basic
> ingredients were the same and they seemed to be minus the toast of course.
> IMHO the only toast that should be associeted with wine is one with a
glass
> in the air
>
> >The potential alcohol is a but pretty low. Is there a reason the
> >recipe called for 4 pounds of sugar but you only used 2?
>
> Once again I refer back to Jack's wonderful site. In my original mulberry
> wine recipe I added half the sugar during primary fermentation. Let the
> yeast chew on that the entire primary period of four days. Before I racked
> into the secondary I added the remaining sugar. I plan to do the same
thing
> with the orange wine.
>
> I'm certainly no expert on the matter but in my mind's eye I pictured the
> yeast eating up as much sugar as it could in the primary period, so I
> figured I would save the second half of the sugar for the fermentation
that
> makes alcohol. Also with being new to all this I read somewhere that its
> possible for yeast to get stuck when the sugar levels are too high. Not
> knowing what this level was for the strain of yeast I was using I tasted
the
> must and decided it too sweet for me to bear and figured the yeast would
> feel the same way.
>
> >If it has already started to ferment, just add 6 ounces of sugar *per
> >US gallon* to make this adjustment. HTH
>
> Frederick, As stated above I plan to add the remaining sugar at racking to
> the secondary. As for the fermentation being stuck. Well I must admit my
> alarmism was a bit premature. When I came home from work tonight the
mixture
> was fizzing heavily and there was a distinct yeastie smell much stronger
> then before. So I think everything is working fine.
>
> My primary concern with things being "off" so to speak, was that I seen no
> heavy layer on top of the fermenting must. Pondering this after a good
> nite's sleep I relized that there would very likely not be one seeing as I
> filtered the must so well.
>
> I was used to thinking in terms of fermentation of heavy fruit pulp like
in
> the mulberry wine.
>
> >My grandparents had 8 huge mulberry trees, 14-18 in. in diameter whose
> limbs
> >all grew together. Us kids would climb from tree to tree eating the
mellow
> >fruit. I wish I had access to them now. ;o(
>
> Ray, you certainly bring back memories from my own childhood. Where I grew
> up in New Jersey our house was built on an area that used to be an orchard
> for various types of fruits. One of them being mulberries. We had many
trees
> on our little 1/4 acre lot and like you I can remember climbing those
trees
> being filled with birds and sharing the fruit with them. Many a Bobwhite
and
> Robin would often join me in a little mid-day snack.
>
> When I ended up buying a home here in Osteen Florida there were alot of
> fruit trees on the land. One of which was this little mulberry tree I
> beleive its a Japaniese variety since it grows more like a bush then a
tall
> tree that you and I are used to seeing.
>
> To get back to the point though. I believe everything is fermenting
> correctly. It seems with every batch of wine, I start to learn a little
> more. Right now I have a batch finishing up in the fridge that I started
> last year made from Welches frozen concentrate. (Again a visit to Jack
> Keller's site provided a gold mine for this one). Next to the current
batch
> of orange wine I have a 1 gallon batch of Mulberry Mead(Morat?) I started
a
> day before the orange wine. In another month or two I'm going to get
another
> batch of Mulberry wine going when they all get ripe and then hopefully a
> shot at fig wine if the squirles don't get them all first
>
> Thanks Again All, and I hope to read many other fine posts in here in the
> future.
> Mike T.
>
>
>
>
>

"Michael Thompson" > wrote in message .com>...
> IMHO the only toast that should be associeted with wine is one with a glass
> in the air

Well said.

> I'm certainly no expert on the matter but in my mind's eye I pictured the
> yeast eating up as much sugar as it could in the primary period, so I
> figured I would save the second half of the sugar for the fermentation that
> makes alcohol.

IMHO, this is really a misconception fostered by a lot of winemaking
and brewing books. There really aren't two separate phases of the
fermentation as some state. A lot of books refer to a lag or growth
phase and then an alcohol production phase. In reality, yeast will
start producing alcohol and CO2 almost immediately, unless the sugar
content of the must is very low and there is O2 present. They will
divert some energy towards building cell mass and budding, but that
doesn't mean they forego fermentation.

Yes, alcohol production is low in the beginning, but that's more
because the yeast colony is small and there just aren't many cells
processing the sugar. As the cell count increases, the overall rate of
alcohol production increases and cell growth rates decrease (due to
competition for nutrients/food), but there isn't a magic switch that
turns the cells from growth mode to alcohol production mode.

With typical sugar levels, I don't think you will find a significant
difference in adding all the sugar in the beginning vs. half up front
and half later. Actually, if the initial SG is too low, you could find
the yeast using respiration instead of fermentation, which could lower
the total alcohol produced.

> Also with being new to all this I read somewhere that its
> possible for yeast to get stuck when the sugar levels are too high. Not
> knowing what this level was for the strain of yeast I was using I tasted the
> must and decided it too sweet for me to bear and figured the yeast would
> feel the same way.

Yeast like must sweeter than we do. You shouldn't have to worry with
the sugar levels your using.

Welcome to the hobby, good luck and let us know how it turns out.


Andy

>
> IMHO, this is really a misconception fostered by a lot of winemaking
> and brewing books. There really aren't two separate phases of the
> fermentation as some state. A lot of books refer to a lag or growth
> phase and then an alcohol production phase. In reality, yeast will
> start producing alcohol and CO2 almost immediately, unless the sugar
> content of the must is very low and there is O2 present. They will
> divert some energy towards building cell mass and budding, but that
> doesn't mean they forego fermentation.
>

Everything I have read in books and read posted here indicates
that there are two phases. The first is a reproductive phase where
the yeast is reproducing more than it is producing alcohol. That
phase is an aerobic phase where oxygen is required. The second
phase is anerobic and is the alcohol producing phase.

Don

(Don S) wrote in message . com>...
> >
> > IMHO, this is really a misconception fostered by a lot of winemaking
> > and brewing books. There really aren't two separate phases of the
> > fermentation as some state. A lot of books refer to a lag or growth
> > phase and then an alcohol production phase. In reality, yeast will
> > start producing alcohol and CO2 almost immediately, unless the sugar
> > content of the must is very low and there is O2 present. They will
> > divert some energy towards building cell mass and budding, but that
> > doesn't mean they forego fermentation.
> >
>
> Everything I have read in books and read posted here indicates
> that there are two phases. The first is a reproductive phase where
> the yeast is reproducing more than it is producing alcohol. That
> phase is an aerobic phase where oxygen is required. The second
> phase is anerobic and is the alcohol producing phase.
>
> Don

I did say misconception, didn't I ?

It is well documented by UC Davis and some yeast companies that if the
must/wort has significant sugar (like typical musts/worts), there is
no aerobic respiration by the yeast. They will use O2 to keep the cell
walls healthy, but they will immediately start fermenting, which
doesn't use O2.

Andy