This is going to be a tough post to answer (perhaps) since everyone
has different wine preferences/buying habits/etc.

My wife and I have our favourite commercial wines: a Mondavi
Johanesburg Riesling (~$11 Canadian) for white and an Australian Wolf
Blass Pinot Noir (~$15 Canadian) for red. I have 4 different kits on
the go right now -- on three of them I went with the premium $100+
kits. Included in that set is a Pinot Noir and a J.Riesling.

The wines have all aged nearly a month now and I did a mass racking
this weekend to get them off the sediment. After this I plan to age
each another 6 months bulk and 2 months bottle minimum.

I, of course, tasted each wine as I racked them. I've got to
say...not really impressive at all. Perhaps equivalent to some cheap
boxed wine.

So I've got to ask: will I be able to have something comparable to
the commercial wines my wife and I enjoy after aging? The whole idea
was for us to save some money by making them ourselves, yet if we have
to endure lower quality wine then there's no real point.

IMO you can never equal a commercial wine, but that may not be all bad.
The kits you purchased if made correctly and aged adequately will
provide you with a very good quality wine, albeit differing in character
from commercial wines. My wife and I prefer many of our home made wines
to the commercial ones, in most cases. Ours are lower in sulphites and
consequently easier on our allergies. Given the many opinions about the
difference in home made and commercial wine it must be an acquired
taste. Please let us know after at least 6 months of aging for whites
and one year for red what is your opinion. In Vino Veritas,
Larry


"Harry Colquhoun" > wrote in message
om

> This is going to be a tough post to answer (perhaps) since everyone
> has different wine preferences/buying habits/etc.
>
> My wife and I have our favourite commercial wines: a Mondavi
> Johanesburg Riesling (~$11 Canadian) for white and an Australian Wolf
> Blass Pinot Noir (~$15 Canadian) for red. I have 4 different kits on
> the go right now -- on three of them I went with the premium $100+
> kits. Included in that set is a Pinot Noir and a J.Riesling.
>
> The wines have all aged nearly a month now and I did a mass racking
> this weekend to get them off the sediment. After this I plan to age
> each another 6 months bulk and 2 months bottle minimum.
>
> I, of course, tasted each wine as I racked them. I've got to
> say...not really impressive at all. Perhaps equivalent to some cheap
> boxed wine.
>
> So I've got to ask: will I be able to have something comparable to
> the commercial wines my wife and I enjoy after aging? The whole idea
> was for us to save some money by making them ourselves, yet if we have
> to endure lower quality wine then there's no real point.


IMO you can never equal a commercial wine, but that may not be all bad.
The kits you purchased if made correctly and aged adequately will
provide you with a very good quality wine, albeit differing in character
from commercial wines. My wife and I prefer many of our home made wines
to the commercial ones, in most cases. Ours are lower in sulphites and
consequently easier on our allergies. Given the many opinions about the
difference in home made and commercial wine it must be an acquired
taste. Please let us know after at least 6 months of aging for whites
and one year for red what is your opinion. In Vino Veritas,
Larry


--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

"Harry Colquhoun" > wrote in message
> The wines have all aged nearly a month now and I did a mass racking
> this weekend to get them off the sediment. After this I plan to age
> each another 6 months bulk and 2 months bottle minimum.
>
> I, of course, tasted each wine as I racked them. I've got to
> say...not really impressive at all. Perhaps equivalent to some cheap
> boxed wine.
>
> So I've got to ask: will I be able to have something comparable to
> the commercial wines my wife and I enjoy after aging? The whole idea
> was for us to save some money by making them ourselves, yet if we have
> to endure lower quality wine then there's no real point.

Why are you comparing a month old wine with a wine that has aged for a
couple of years? Think, man, that is craaaaazy. Would you take a loaf of
bread from the oven half way through the baking process and eat it and
determine it is not as good as the bakery stuff? .

Six months is not long enough either, at least not for reds. Some whites
may be OK. You have to have patience and build inventory. Kits I made a
year ago are just starting to reach the smoothness you'd expect from a
decent wine. I'm still drinking some 1999 and 2000 kits and enjoying them.
Ed

http://pages.cthome.net/edhome

I make both kit wines and "fruit"/"country wines.

To answer your post as briefly as possible.
1. I think that you will find that the white kit wines when aged in bulk and
bottle as you propose will give you wine which is very comparable to its
equivalent commercial product --- even better when you compare with
equivalent costing! I am drinking now some 2 year old Sauvignon Blanc which
is very good.
2. With Red kit wines you do need to bulk age for as long as you can -- a
year is preferable and then bottle age for at least 2 months. However if you
do a google search on the subject of red kit wines you will see that even
the most expensive kit reds have a distinctly difference taste to the
equivalent commercially produce red wine. I, and many others on here, called
it a "cooked fruit" taste and is as result of the heat treatment that the
grapes/juice go through to extract the colour of the skins etc for red wine
kits. Having said that I have a good cellar ( small larder racked up to hold
200 bottles) of very nice reds all made from the best kits ( IMHO) that is
available in UK ( Brew King Selection, Selection International, Selection
Ltd Edition and Selection Estate series ) . On the North American continent
you have a wider selection of premium wine kits available. I still think
that, suitably aged, you will enjoy the red wines -- but aging is essential.
Drinking these wines at the 28 day point is asking for disappointment. You
will find, in the better ( and more costly) kits they recommend further
aging at the end of the fermenting and clearing processes.
I would say that a bottle of my Malbec/Shiraz from a Limited Edition of 2002
which cost me say-- £2.50/bottle - labelled and shrink-wrap capped --
compares very well to a commercial bottle costing say £5 to £8.

This subject has been discussed over and over on this group and it really is
worth doing a google search. You will find masses of information, stacks of
opinions, and pages of questions and answers on the subject!


--
Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire, England
Remove "PSANTISPAM" from my address line to reply.
All outgoing mail is scanned by Norton
Anti Virus for your protection too!
"Harry Colquhoun" > wrote in message
om...
> This is going to be a tough post to answer (perhaps) since everyone

<snip><snip>.

> So I've got to ask: will I be able to have something comparable to
> the commercial wines my wife and I enjoy after aging? The whole idea
> was for us to save some money by making them ourselves, yet if we have
> to endure lower quality wine then there's no real point.

> So I've got to ask: will I be able to have something comparable to
> the commercial wines my wife and I enjoy after aging? The whole idea
> was for us to save some money by making them ourselves, yet if we have
> to endure lower quality wine then there's no real point.

I'm not sure that your reds will (but they will come close)
but I would think your whites definitely will. Taste your
wine every two weeks and let the group know what you think
after 3 months and again after 6 months and a year.

Besides the use of high end kits, techniques in making the
kits and aging are important as well. Each step in the process
leads minutely to a better quality produict. After that you
can also move up to fresh juice and/or pressing the grapes
yourself.

I initially got into this to save some money but have found
that the making of the wine is as interesting as the tasting.

Don

If you are trying to reproduce a particular commercial wine, you probably
never will. If you by 3 or 4 commercial J. Riesling's from different
locations or even different years, all at $11 each, they will not taste the
same. Some you will like better than others. You will like some better
than others. I suspect the J.Riesling you make will come out very good once
it is aged properly. I personally like mine aged 3-6 mo's as I like it
young. My taste. The nice thing about making your own is you can craft it
to your taste. You might save money making your own. You might not. It is
a hobby. Have fun and that will be part of the enjoyment. And if you do
not enjoy making and serving it, no offense meant, but you would be better
off buying commercial wine.

Ray

"Harry Colquhoun" > wrote in message
om...
> This is going to be a tough post to answer (perhaps) since everyone
> has different wine preferences/buying habits/etc.
>
> My wife and I have our favourite commercial wines: a Mondavi
> Johanesburg Riesling (~$11 Canadian) for white and an Australian Wolf
> Blass Pinot Noir (~$15 Canadian) for red. I have 4 different kits on
> the go right now -- on three of them I went with the premium $100+
> kits. Included in that set is a Pinot Noir and a J.Riesling.
>
> The wines have all aged nearly a month now and I did a mass racking
> this weekend to get them off the sediment. After this I plan to age
> each another 6 months bulk and 2 months bottle minimum.
>
> I, of course, tasted each wine as I racked them. I've got to
> say...not really impressive at all. Perhaps equivalent to some cheap
> boxed wine.
>
> So I've got to ask: will I be able to have something comparable to
> the commercial wines my wife and I enjoy after aging? The whole idea
> was for us to save some money by making them ourselves, yet if we have
> to endure lower quality wine then there's no real point.

Harry,

I was in your shoes a few months ago. I started my first batch in
november. I asked the same thing a month later, it just tasted like
red alcoholic water! I was very anxious to bottle it so I bottled it
last month. I open a bottle about every two weeks and let me tell you,
I can taste the difference each time. It taste more and more like...
wine!

An uncle of mine always bulk age his wine for about two years. And his
wine is as goood as a ($15 canadian) wine. I now have 3 kits bulk
ageing, and just hope I will be able to let it age enough.

One thing to remember, kits are always thinner than commercial wines,
so never add too much water when topping. Try always topping with some
other wine. That is another reason why I was anxious to bottle my
first batch.

Willie

(Harry Colquhoun) wrote in message >
> My wife and I have our favourite commercial wines: a Mondavi
> Johanesburg Riesling (~$11 Canadian) for white and an Australian Wolf
> Blass Pinot Noir (~$15 Canadian) for red. I have 4 different kits on
> the go right now -- on three of them I went with the premium $100+
> kits. Included in that set is a Pinot Noir and a J.Riesling.
>
> The wines have all aged nearly a month now and I did a mass racking
> this weekend to get them off the sediment. After this I plan to age
> each another 6 months bulk and 2 months bottle minimum.
>
> I, of course, tasted each wine as I racked them. I've got to
> say...not really impressive at all. Perhaps equivalent to some cheap
> boxed wine.
>
> So I've got to ask: will I be able to have something comparable to
> the commercial wines my wife and I enjoy after aging? The whole idea
> was for us to save some money by making them ourselves, yet if we have
> to endure lower quality wine then there's no real point.

Harry,

I agree very much with the comments in the response from Trevor (aka
Pinky). Like him I've made many kits and some fruit wines, but I've
also made wines from fresh grapes for the past 3 years. I think he
hits the nail on the head pretty squarely. Aging makes a world of
difference in kit reds. I would, however, add a few more details from
my own observations:

As to the "cooked" aspect of red kit wines, I've found them to be
somewhat more apparent in the Brew King kits I've done than in the few
other kits I've done. A little over a year ago I started an AdVintage
Celebrations Australian Shiraz, an RJSpagnols Cru Select Platinum
Australian Shiraz, and a Cellar Craft WA State Merlot. All of these
seem far less "cooked" than the many BK kits I've done -- almost to
the point where I don't really notice it. However, they all still
lack a freshness in their tannins and more importantly lack a lot in
their bouquet compared to virtually any red wine made from fresh
grapes (including commercial wines). Also, it seems to me that some
of these other kits are likely less "manufactured" than the BK kits --
their overall flavour profile of the Celebrations and Cru Select are
not quite as balanced as a typical BK kit, but they also come off as
being more fresh and unprocessed and so I quite prefer them. The best
kit I've done, by far, was the Cellar Craft WA State Merlot (with the
"crushed grape pack") -- if you're still in doubt you might want to
try that one before giving up on kit reds.

I also believe that Pinot Noir kits, in general, are especially poor
at representing the Pinot Noir flavour/aroma profile. I'm not sure
why this is, but I've sampled a few and at best they can barely give
you a glimpse of what even a mediocre Pinot Noir is supposed to be
like. After living in Oregon betwen 2000 and 2002, Pinot Noir has
become our favorite variety and we're quite sad that not only do the
kits offer nothing promising, but it is also extremely difficult to
get even half-decent Pinot Noir grapes here in Calgary. I'm hoping
that some time in the next 2-3 years I'll find a way to get my hands
on some decent Pinot Noir grapes from BC/OR/CA.

Ultimately your preference is probably going to be determined by your
budget. I believe it's possible to produce kit reds that are
generally more enjoyable than the average of the cheapest commercial
reds (which will still be more expensive). But if you can afford to
spend at least $15-16 (CDN) and up for your everyday wine, and are
careful to choose ones that are decent values, then you're not likely
to produce anything from a kit that will compare. You would have to
start making wine from your own premium grapes, and that could begin
to get nearly as expensive (i.e. with Brehm Vineyards grapes) and
involves a lot more work and risk.

Cheers,
Richard

(Harry Colquhoun) wrote in message . com>...
> This is going to be a tough post to answer (perhaps) since everyone
> has different wine preferences/buying habits/etc.
>
> My wife and I have our favourite commercial wines: a Mondavi
> Johanesburg Riesling (~$11 Canadian) for white and an Australian Wolf
> Blass Pinot Noir (~$15 Canadian) for red. I have 4 different kits on
> the go right now -- on three of them I went with the premium $100+
> kits. Included in that set is a Pinot Noir and a J.Riesling.
>
> The wines have all aged nearly a month now and I did a mass racking
> this weekend to get them off the sediment. After this I plan to age
> each another 6 months bulk and 2 months bottle minimum.
>
> I, of course, tasted each wine as I racked them. I've got to
> say...not really impressive at all. Perhaps equivalent to some cheap
> boxed wine.
>
> So I've got to ask: will I be able to have something comparable to
> the commercial wines my wife and I enjoy after aging? The whole idea
> was for us to save some money by making them ourselves, yet if we have
> to endure lower quality wine then there's no real point.

Richard,

I enjoyed reading your response. Read through it twice in fact. I'd
like to venture into making wine from fresh grapes. I too live in
Calgary - in the land where the only thriving varietal is rhubarb. Do
you know of a supplier locally or do you buy from vineyards and have
them ship to you? I have a few more questions. I'd enjoy connecting
with you either directly: jimu @ shaw.ca or via the NG.

Cheers, Jim



Harry,

If I didn't believe I could make wines as well as good commercial
product I wouldn't go to the trouble. I've tasted one or two homemade
wines (from grapes) that outshine any commercial wine I've ever had,
both in taste and bouquet. Quality to begin with (either grapes or
unconcentrated juice), good technique, the little extra TLC, and aging
all factor into the final product. Homemade wines benefit from less
handling and often better storage than commercial wines which gives us
an edge. Unless you buy expensive wines, wine stores retail their
wares in environments friendly to people (ie lighting and
temperature), but not so friendly to wines. On numerous occassions
I've been disappointed in commerical wines.

Cheers, Jim

First of all, apologies for the title. For some reason that seemed to
be perfect english to me yesterday.

Thanks for the responses so far. If I have to wait a year or two for
my reds then so be it. At the same time, I was asking the question
because, if, at the end of those two years of bulk aging, I go to
drink my first bottle only to find that the wine is the equivalent to
some el-cheapo boxed wine I'm going to be pretty upset.

While I'm enjoying the hobby so far, I'd also like to have something
of value at the end of the process. It's great to hear that my whites
may approach commercial wines, and if need be, I'll just make whites.

Cheers,
Harry

> While I'm enjoying the hobby so far, I'd also like to have something
> of value at the end of the process. It's great to hear that my whites
> may approach commercial wines, and if need be, I'll just make whites.

Harry,
Sample your wines every two weeks or every month and tell us
your impressions, we always like to read about wine and others
will be interested because the they will have the same questions.
Do it in a log format if you want, with the newest news at the
top. Post it every month or so, electrons are free.

Also, make another white or two in a few months because in three
you whites will be pretty good and you'll start drinking them
a bit faster than you think. End result, you'll run out and have
no aged wine.

Remember you can always advance beyond kits to trying grapes,
especially if you live close to a growing area, and you can
try your hand at fruit wines - where do you go to buy a cherry
mead or a blueberry wine? Read through some of these:

http://homepage.mac.com/gregcook/Wine/mywines.html

Don