I'm one day into my first batch-- a Selection Cabernet. I obviously
want to age longer than what the instructions say. Unfortunately, I
followed the instructions completely from the get go. I later noticed
that Keller and others recommend taking a gal of must, refrigerating
and adding after "vigorous" fermentation stops. I've already added
the yeast and I didn't remove any must prior. I assume adding that
gal of must at the end of vigorous fermentation acts to somewhat
reignite the fermentation process. Is there something I can do to
correct this?

Also, I want to go from primary fermenter (bucket), to 6 gal carbouy,
to 5 gal carbouy, to bottles. Hence, I want to ferment in the primary
fermenter (bucket) for about a month before moving to the 6 gal
carbouy. Note: My primary fermenter has a small bung and an airlock.
Is there any problem with doing this as opposed to housing in the
primary (bucket) until vigorous fermentation is over and immediately
racking to a carbouy (as I understand that's typically about a week)?

"Jack" > wrote in message
om...
> I'm one day into my first batch-- a Selection Cabernet. I obviously
> want to age longer than what the instructions say. Unfortunately, I
> followed the instructions completely from the get go. I later noticed
> that Keller and others recommend taking a gal of must, refrigerating
> and adding after "vigorous" fermentation stops. I've already added
> the yeast and I didn't remove any must prior. I assume adding that
> gal of must at the end of vigorous fermentation acts to somewhat
> reignite the fermentation process. Is there something I can do to
> correct this?

If you insist, you could take a gallon out now and refrigerate it for later
addition. The yeast won't go far in the 'fridge.

> Also, I want to go from primary fermenter (bucket), to 6 gal carboy,
> to 5 gal carboy, to bottles. Hence, I want to ferment in the primary
> fermenter (bucket) for about a month before moving to the 6 gal
> carboy. Note: My primary fermenter has a small bung and an airlock.
> Is there any problem with doing this as opposed to housing in the
> primary (bucket) until vigorous fermentation is over and immediately
> racking to a carboy (as I understand that's typically about a week)?

Yes. Once the fermentation dies down the risk of getting something
undesirable growing in that bucket is very high. Those buckets aren't
airtight enough - at least the ones I've seen aren't. The airlock is pretty
much wasted on them because the gas finds an easier path around the edges,
under the lid.

IOW, transfer to the 6 gallon jug when the activity has mostly died down and
attach an airlock. Be sure to stir the must vigorously before the transfer
to release most of the gas or you may end up with red foam all over the
floor and yourself as the dissolved CO2 tries to come out of solution all at
once!

Tom S

>> If you insist, you could take a gallon out now and refrigerate it
for later
addition. The yeast won't go far in the 'fridge.<<

I realized that I don't even have an airtight container to put in (I'm
going to order some 1 gal jugs). It would have to be a pitcher or
something like that. Also, oak chips have also already been added and
the must is fermenting quite a bit. I took a quick, rough hydrometer
reading tonight and s.g. was down to about 1.075. Would there be any
benefit to adding sugar or even grape juice when the vigorous
fermentation subsides, since I don't have the separated must to add
back?

I suggest you let this batch ferment as is... You can never go wrong
following manufacturer's directions. I would not add anything to my
first kit if I were you. Selection kits are usually full bodied and
really don't need additional sugar (to increase alcohol level) or
additional grape juice..

On 16 Feb 2004 20:51:27 -0800, (Jack) wrote:

>>> If you insist, you could take a gallon out now and refrigerate it
>for later
>addition. The yeast won't go far in the 'fridge.<<
>
>I realized that I don't even have an airtight container to put in (I'm
>going to order some 1 gal jugs). It would have to be a pitcher or
>something like that. Also, oak chips have also already been added and
>the must is fermenting quite a bit. I took a quick, rough hydrometer
>reading tonight and s.g. was down to about 1.075. Would there be any
>benefit to adding sugar or even grape juice when the vigorous
>fermentation subsides, since I don't have the separated must to add
>back?

> I'm one day into my first batch-- a Selection Cabernet. I obviously
> want to age longer than what the instructions say. Unfortunately, I
> followed the instructions completely from the get go. I later noticed
> that Keller and others recommend taking a gal of must, refrigerating
> and adding after "vigorous" fermentation stops. I've already added
> the yeast and I didn't remove any must prior. I assume adding that
> gal of must at the end of vigorous fermentation acts to somewhat
> reignite the fermentation process. Is there something I can do to
> correct this?

What is the reason behind doing this, do you have a reference?
There may be some benefit to doing it but you don't have to.
Many of us make kits where we haven't done what you outline.

As this is your first kit then as another poster recommended you
could follow the instructions to the letter. If you really
appreciate the wine you make then you will probably be doing
more. In the subsequent kits make one modification per kit, never
biting off more than your comfortable with.

> Also, I want to go from primary fermenter (bucket), to 6 gal carbouy,
> to 5 gal carbouy, to bottles. Hence, I want to ferment in the primary
> fermenter (bucket) for about a month before moving to the 6 gal
> carbouy. Note: My primary fermenter has a small bung and an airlock.
> Is there any problem with doing this as opposed to housing in the
> primary (bucket) until vigorous fermentation is over and immediately
> racking to a carbouy (as I understand that's typically about a week)?

Yes there is a problem - air contact and oxidation while in the
bucket. As someone posted here recently the buckets are not
very air tight and you are considering keeping the must there
way past the end of fermentation (unless you are doing a fairly
cool (<60 F) fermentation). If that is the case and there is
oxygen entering that is not displaced by the CO2 of fermentation,
then you could begin oxidizing the wine.

You can move the wine into a carboy as soon as you notice that
fermentation is slowing. I have stopped using a bucket for my
kits altogether and instead start them right in the carboy with
a slower acting yeast such as Lalvin D-47 or RC-212. It's the
typical kit yeast of EC-1118 that requires a large pail to
contain the explosive initial fermentation.

If you want to start the kit in a carboy you just need to splash
the water and kit into the carboy and mix well afterward. This
will ensure there is enough initial oxygen to cover the yeast's
needs in their reproductive phase.

Don

Jack wrote "I'm one day into my first batch-- a Selection Cabernet. I
later noticed that Keller and others recommend taking a gal of must,
refrigerating and adding after "vigorous" fermentation stops. I've already
added the yeast and I didn't remove any must prior. I assume adding that
gal of must at the end of vigorous fermentation acts to somewhat reignite
the fermentation process."

Jack Keller probably recommends removing a gallon of must from the initial
fermentation to increase the head space in a carboy, thus preventing
loss/escape of must from the carboy during the rapid fermentation phase.
After fermentation slows, and foaming subsides the extra must is added and
fermentation goes to completion.

"Also, I want to go from primary fermenter (bucket)"

You used an open bucket for primary fermentation which I assume was large
enough to contain all of the must plus foam that builds up during the rapid
fermentation. So, there was no reason not to include all of the must.


"Hence, I want to ferment in the primary fermenter (bucket) for about a
month before moving to the 6 gal carbouy"

A month is too long to leave fermenting must in an open bucket. Even though
your bucket fermenter has a lid and air lock it's not air tight enough to
prevent oxidation after the rapid fermentation phase is finished. It will
only take a few days for the rapid fermentation to settle down. Hold a lit
match above the fermenting must. If the match goes out lots of CO2 is still
coming off the must. If the match stays lit you had better rack to a closed
fermenter such as a carboy ASAP.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas

(Jack) wrote in message . com>...
> I'm one day into my first batch-- a Selection Cabernet. I obviously
> want to age longer than what the instructions say. Unfortunately, I
> followed the instructions completely from the get go. I later noticed
> that Keller and others recommend taking a gal of must, refrigerating
> and adding after "vigorous" fermentation stops. I've already added
> the yeast and I didn't remove any must prior. I assume adding that
> gal of must at the end of vigorous fermentation acts to somewhat
> reignite the fermentation process. Is there something I can do to
> correct this?
>
> Also, I want to go from primary fermenter (bucket), to 6 gal carbouy,
> to 5 gal carbouy, to bottles. Hence, I want to ferment in the primary
> fermenter (bucket) for about a month before moving to the 6 gal
> carbouy. Note: My primary fermenter has a small bung and an airlock.
> Is there any problem with doing this as opposed to housing in the
> primary (bucket) until vigorous fermentation is over and immediately
> racking to a carbouy (as I understand that's typically about a week)?

Relax, you didn't do anything wrong. Rack into glass after the
vigorous fermentation is over (~1 week).

bb

Thanks for all of the info., folks. My only problem with the kit
instructions is that they are geared to the wine being bottled after
28 days. I want to age for at least 3 or 4 months. I don't really
understand what to do differently to make this happen. It might be as
simple as leaving in the carbouy and forgetting about. However, if
there are things I need to do to allow for a longer aging, I want to
do.

I guess the removing of the gallon of must at the beginning was
probably to give foaming room in the carbouy. My instructions say not
to top-up in the 6 gal after first racking from the primary.
According to the instructions, this racking occurs @ around an s.g. of
1.01. The instructions don't say why you shouldn't top-up, just not
to. I can see where there could still be some foaming. Is this the
reason for not initially topping-up in the carbouy? I believe the
directions said to top-up after the s.g. got below 1.00 (going from
memory, don't have the instructions with me). I guess at this point,
fermentation is about done. Would you agree with doing it this way or
should I top-off the carbouy (secondary fermenter) immediately after
racking from the primary?

> Thanks for all of the info., folks. My only problem with the kit
> instructions is that they are geared to the wine being bottled after
> 28 days. I want to age for at least 3 or 4 months. I don't really
> understand what to do differently to make this happen. It might be as
> simple as leaving in the carbouy and forgetting about. However, if
> there are things I need to do to allow for a longer aging, I want to
> do.

Depending on the type of wine you might want to rack off
the fine lees after a couple of weeks. At that point you
want to ensure you are topped up either by adding a similar
wine or racking to a smaller carboy (19l). Then you just
have to leave it alone for a few months and perhaps add some
more potassium meta before bottling.


>
> I guess the removing of the gallon of must at the beginning was
> probably to give foaming room in the carbouy. My instructions say not
> to top-up in the 6 gal after first racking from the primary.
> According to the instructions, this racking occurs @ around an s.g. of
> 1.01. The instructions don't say why you shouldn't top-up, just not
> to. I can see where there could still be some foaming. Is this the
> reason for not initially topping-up in the carbouy? I believe the
> directions said to top-up after the s.g. got below 1.00 (going from
> memory, don't have the instructions with me). I guess at this point,
> fermentation is about done. Would you agree with doing it this way or
> should I top-off the carbouy (secondary fermenter) immediately after
> racking from the primary?

There's no reason to top up if the wine is still fermenting.
The CO2 produced during fermentation will drive out any residual
oxygen and thus oxidation is not a concern. Once fermentation
has stopped then no CO2 and topping up is important.

Don

> There's no reason to top up if the wine is still fermenting.
> The CO2 produced during fermentation will drive out any residual
> oxygen and thus oxidation is not a concern. Once fermentation
> has stopped then no CO2 and topping up is important.

Even when fermentation has stopped you don't need to immediately
top up. No need to worry about that until you've opened the carboy
as fermentation has replaced the O2 with CO2.

Therefore at the end, until you need to open it to say rack it
off the lees, you can just leave the wine sitting in the carboy
for another couple of weeks.

Don

"Don S" > wrote in message
om...
> > There's no reason to top up if the wine is still fermenting.
> > The CO2 produced during fermentation will drive out any residual
> > oxygen and thus oxidation is not a concern. Once fermentation
> > has stopped then no CO2 and topping up is important.
>
> Even when fermentation has stopped you don't need to immediately
> top up. No need to worry about that until you've opened the carboy
> as fermentation has replaced the O2 with CO2.
>
> Therefore at the end, until you need to open it to say rack it
> off the lees, you can just leave the wine sitting in the carboy
> for another couple of weeks.

While in theory that's true, it's on the risky side to do so. Some types of
airlocks will vent in either direction. If it gets cold in the cellar you
may find that the water (or whatever you use) in your airlocks has been
sucked into the carboy - along with an unknown amount of air and possibly
even dead fruit flies. It's really safest to top up containers ASAP, and
sulfite them as soon as fermentation is complete.

Tom S

That's what to do. Just leave it in the Carboy, and forget about it. Don't
worry if each stage takes longer than they say in teh instructions, but once
you have stabilized it, just let it sit for the time you want it to..it that is
3 mos, fine and dandy.

>hanks for all of the info., folks. My only problem with the kit
>instructions is that they are geared to the wine being bottled after
>28 days. I want to age for at least 3 or 4 months. I don't really
>understand what to do differently to make this happen. It might be as
>simple as leaving in the carbouy and forgetting about. ?
>
>