I read in Wine Maker mag, in an archived article, that if you practice
good sanitation and cleaning the addition of the potassium sorbate
that came with my Brew King kit is unnecessary. If this is the
concensus of everyone here, I'd like to do that. What does everyone
think about leaving out the kits potassium sorbate? Thanks in
advance.

Thats true for any wine that is finished dry. If your wine has an "F" pack
(thats Brew Kings juice) that's added after fermentation you MUST use the
sorbate. The only other way to sweeten a wine and not use sorbate is to
sterile filter to .045 microns to ensure no viable yeast is around to start
munching on the sugar you just dumped in!

Tom
"Kevin" > wrote in message
m...
> I read in Wine Maker mag, in an archived article, that if you practice
> good sanitation and cleaning the addition of the potassium sorbate
> that came with my Brew King kit is unnecessary. If this is the
> concensus of everyone here, I'd like to do that. What does everyone
> think about leaving out the kits potassium sorbate? Thanks in
> advance.

I just started a Brew King Vieux Chateau Du Roi and have heard you can leave
out the potassium sorbate. What would be the advantages or disadvantages of
leaving it out?


"Kevin" > wrote in message
m...
> I read in Wine Maker mag, in an archived article, that if you practice
> good sanitation and cleaning the addition of the potassium sorbate
> that came with my Brew King kit is unnecessary. If this is the
> concensus of everyone here, I'd like to do that. What does everyone
> think about leaving out the kits potassium sorbate? Thanks in
> advance.

Also, Anyone know what the Vieux Chateau Du Roi is? I am told it is a
blend of red wines, but Brew King will not tell me what and how much.


"BooBoo" > wrote in message
news:AbGRb.3394$QJ3.1064@fed1read04...
> I just started a Brew King Vieux Chateau Du Roi and have heard you can
leave
> out the potassium sorbate. What would be the advantages or disadvantages
of
> leaving it out?
>
>
> "Kevin" > wrote in message
> m...
> > I read in Wine Maker mag, in an archived article, that if you practice
> > good sanitation and cleaning the addition of the potassium sorbate
> > that came with my Brew King kit is unnecessary. If this is the
> > concensus of everyone here, I'd like to do that. What does everyone
> > think about leaving out the kits potassium sorbate? Thanks in
> > advance.
>
>

Potassium sorbate isn't necessary if you ferment your wine to dryness.
The advantage of leaving it out is you don't have to add any other chemicals
to your wine. Potassium sorbate supposedly adds a bit of a flavour change
to your wine....
But you use it only if you're making a sweeter or semi-sweet wine.
If you have a brew king with an F-pack, you need to add the potassium
sorbate to prevent it from fermenting in the bottle.
It's not fun cleaning up wine spooge from the floor!

Rick

"BooBoo" > wrote in message
news:AbGRb.3394$QJ3.1064@fed1read04...
> I just started a Brew King Vieux Chateau Du Roi and have heard you can
leave
> out the potassium sorbate. What would be the advantages or disadvantages
of
> leaving it out?
>
>
> "Kevin" > wrote in message
> m...
> > I read in Wine Maker mag, in an archived article, that if you practice
> > good sanitation and cleaning the addition of the potassium sorbate
> > that came with my Brew King kit is unnecessary. If this is the
> > concensus of everyone here, I'd like to do that. What does everyone
> > think about leaving out the kits potassium sorbate? Thanks in
> > advance.
>
>

"Tom" > wrote in message >...
> Thats true for any wine that is finished dry. If your wine has an "F" pack
> (thats Brew Kings juice) that's added after fermentation you MUST use the
> sorbate. The only other way to sweeten a wine and not use sorbate is to
> sterile filter to .045 microns to ensure no viable yeast is around to start
> munching on the sugar you just dumped in!
>
> Tom
> "Kevin" > wrote in message
> m...
> > I read in Wine Maker mag, in an archived article, that if you practice
> > good sanitation and cleaning the addition of the potassium sorbate
> > that came with my Brew King kit is unnecessary. If this is the
> > concensus of everyone here, I'd like to do that. What does everyone
> > think about leaving out the kits potassium sorbate? Thanks in
> > advance.

Sounds good. I brewed a Reisling, no F pack. What's the diff between
sorbate and sulfite? Doesn't the sulfite kill yeast? What's the
purpose of the two?

On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 20:43:25 -0700, "BooBoo" > wrote:

>Also, Anyone know what the Vieux Chateau Du Roi is? I am told it is a
>blend of red wines, but Brew King will not tell me what and how much.
>
Ah yes, good old proprietary info.

VCR is the Canadian kit companies name for the French Chateauneuf du
Pape, which is itself a blend of ?????

Here is a quote from
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/foodm...013323,00.html

"None of these regions takes things quite as far as
Chteauneuf-du-Pape, where no fewer than 13 varieties are permitted in
a single red wine".

I wonder how many varieties are in the typical VCR kit.

Steve

I happen to agree with the author of the referenced article -- in so
far as the opinion that our North American producers could probably
produce better results with blends as opposed to producing mainly
single-varietal wines. The challenge is probably in the marketing,
where the majority of target consumers might regard a blend with
suspicion, as though it was done to cover up flaws or shortcomings.

I believe I've read in a few places that the Chateauneuf du Pape wines
are often primarily Grenache, Syrah, and Mourvedre. I believe the
quoted article may be wrong though -- a book I have says that *only*
thirteen varieties are allowed to be grown in that appellation, so I
think the Guardian author should have said "as many as 13" instead of
"no fewer than 13". I'm fairly certain that most Ch.du Pape wines
don't have that many. Most of the others listed in my book are far
lesser known varieties (Cinsault, Muscardin, Counoise, Clairette,
Bourboulenc) so one could imagine that Brew King doesn't have any of
these in its blend. And they can pretty much include whatever they
want, since the VCdR is a CdP "style" and by no means adhering to the
same blending criteria let alone grape must sourced from the CdP
appellation. I would guess that they're getting Grenache and Syrah
from the central CA valley, as both are quite readily available and
inexpensive. Not Mourvedre though, and perhaps instead they're using
something like Ruby Cab (as I did this year in my own "Rhone style"
blend), Petite Sirah, or some other variety that's darker and more
tannic.

FWIW, the Vintner's Reserver VCdR kit that I did ("overstrength" at
19l and fermented with Red Star Pasteur Red yeast) turned out to be a
*very* enjoyable wine. I intended it only as a "quick drinker" to
hold us over while our premium kits aged, but I think it turned out
better than the Luna Rossa and the North Coast Pinot Noir (albeit the
latter is a completely different style so any comparisons are somewhat
sketchy). I highly recommend using Pasteur Red with a VCdR kit, as it
seems to give really nice floral notes that complement that style --
especially if you intend to drink much of it earlier than 18 months.

Cheers,
Richard

Steve Waller > wrote in message >. ..
> On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 20:43:25 -0700, "BooBoo" > wrote:
>
> >Also, Anyone know what the Vieux Chateau Du Roi is? I am told it is a
> >blend of red wines, but Brew King will not tell me what and how much.
> >
> Ah yes, good old proprietary info.
>
> VCR is the Canadian kit companies name for the French Chateauneuf du
> Pape, which is itself a blend of ?????
>
> Here is a quote from
> http://observer.guardian.co.uk/foodm...013323,00.html
>
> "None of these regions takes things quite as far as
> Chteauneuf-du-Pape, where no fewer than 13 varieties are permitted in
> a single red wine".
>
> I wonder how many varieties are in the typical VCR kit.
>
> Steve

My kit does not have a F-pack and is fermented to dryness. Why does the kit
have potassium sorbate and why do they want me to use it? It tells me to
add the potassium sorbate, potassium metabisulphate and chitosan after the
fermentation is done. What about the other ingredients?



"Rick Vanderwal" > wrote in message
...
> Potassium sorbate isn't necessary if you ferment your wine to dryness.
> The advantage of leaving it out is you don't have to add any other
chemicals
> to your wine. Potassium sorbate supposedly adds a bit of a flavour change
> to your wine....
> But you use it only if you're making a sweeter or semi-sweet wine.
> If you have a brew king with an F-pack, you need to add the potassium
> sorbate to prevent it from fermenting in the bottle.
> It's not fun cleaning up wine spooge from the floor!
>
> Rick
>
> "BooBoo" > wrote in message
> news:AbGRb.3394$QJ3.1064@fed1read04...
> > I just started a Brew King Vieux Chateau Du Roi and have heard you can
> leave
> > out the potassium sorbate. What would be the advantages or
disadvantages
> of
> > leaving it out?
> >
> >
> > "Kevin" > wrote in message
> > m...
> > > I read in Wine Maker mag, in an archived article, that if you practice
> > > good sanitation and cleaning the addition of the potassium sorbate
> > > that came with my Brew King kit is unnecessary. If this is the
> > > concensus of everyone here, I'd like to do that. What does everyone
> > > think about leaving out the kits potassium sorbate? Thanks in
> > > advance.
> >
> >
>
>

The metabisulphate is an anti-oxidant at this stage, without it your wine
will have a very short shelf life. With fruit (ie non kits)sulphates are
used to "stun" wild yeasts prior to introducing the wine yeasts to the must.
So SO2 (the elemental name) really has two purposes. Also some use it in a
weaker solution as a sanatizing agent as well.

Chitosan is one of many possible clairifying agents used to help clear
wines. Also not needed if you have patience.

Bentonite used to clarify wine and as a protein stabilizer for white wines,
not needed at all for reds.

As to why BK and other kit makers include stuff you don't need... I call
it the FedEx syndrome. "I want it NOW!" They do this so that you could
have something drinkable in 30 days. I suggest for your first few kits you
follow the directions to the letter, they do know what they are doing.
Spend a lot of time on this group, read and ask any questions you would
like. Visit Jacks site and Lums too http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/
http://home.att.net/~lumeisenman/contents.html you will find some good
stuff there!

Then when you get adventurous make some changes, the biggest one you can
make is time......... Let some of that wine age, try in in 6 months, 1 year
2 years and you'll see some distinct improvements.

Have fun!

Tom
"BooBoo" > wrote in message
news:t2QRb.5691$QJ3.1902@fed1read04...
> My kit does not have a F-pack and is fermented to dryness. Why does the
kit
> have potassium sorbate and why do they want me to use it? It tells me to
> add the potassium sorbate, potassium metabisulphate and chitosan after the
> fermentation is done. What about the other ingredients?
>
>
>
> "Rick Vanderwal" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Potassium sorbate isn't necessary if you ferment your wine to dryness.
> > The advantage of leaving it out is you don't have to add any other
> chemicals
> > to your wine. Potassium sorbate supposedly adds a bit of a flavour
change
> > to your wine....
> > But you use it only if you're making a sweeter or semi-sweet wine.
> > If you have a brew king with an F-pack, you need to add the potassium
> > sorbate to prevent it from fermenting in the bottle.
> > It's not fun cleaning up wine spooge from the floor!
> >
> > Rick
> >
> > "BooBoo" > wrote in message
> > news:AbGRb.3394$QJ3.1064@fed1read04...
> > > I just started a Brew King Vieux Chateau Du Roi and have heard you can
> > leave
> > > out the potassium sorbate. What would be the advantages or
> disadvantages
> > of
> > > leaving it out?
> > >
> > >
> > > "Kevin" > wrote in message
> > > m...
> > > > I read in Wine Maker mag, in an archived article, that if you
practice
> > > > good sanitation and cleaning the addition of the potassium sorbate
> > > > that came with my Brew King kit is unnecessary. If this is the
> > > > concensus of everyone here, I'd like to do that. What does everyone
> > > > think about leaving out the kits potassium sorbate? Thanks in
> > > > advance.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

"Kevin" > wrote in message
m...
> I read in Wine Maker mag, in an archived article, that if you practice
> good sanitation and cleaning the addition of the potassium sorbate
> that came with my Brew King kit is unnecessary. If this is the
> concensus of everyone here, I'd like to do that. What does everyone
> think about leaving out the kits potassium sorbate? Thanks in
> advance.

That doesn't make sense. Potassium sorbate is used to prevent renewed
fermentation (it actually stops yeast growth, but that's just being picky)
in wines with residual sugar, so I don't see what that has to do with
sanitation. Are you sure they didn't say you could leave out the potassium
metabisulfite? That would make more sense to me. People with sulfite
allergies can and do make wine with no SO2 in the wine, but they must be
scrupulous about their cleaning and sanitizing regimen.

Brian

> Chitosan is one of many possible clairifying agents used to help clear
> wines. Also not needed if you have patience.
>
> Bentonite used to clarify wine and as a protein stabilizer for white
wines,
> not needed at all for reds.

I use both bentonite and chitosan in my wine kits and they turn out great.
If I use patients and let them clear on their own without using these, how
much better will they be?

"Brian Lundeen" > wrote in message >...
> "Kevin" > wrote in message
> m...
> > I read in Wine Maker mag, in an archived article, that if you practice
> > good sanitation and cleaning the addition of the potassium sorbate
> > that came with my Brew King kit is unnecessary. If this is the
> > concensus of everyone here, I'd like to do that. What does everyone
> > think about leaving out the kits potassium sorbate? Thanks in
> > advance.
>
> That doesn't make sense. Potassium sorbate is used to prevent renewed
> fermentation (it actually stops yeast growth, but that's just being picky)
> in wines with residual sugar, so I don't see what that has to do with
> sanitation. Are you sure they didn't say you could leave out the potassium
> metabisulfite? That would make more sense to me. People with sulfite
> allergies can and do make wine with no SO2 in the wine, but they must be
> scrupulous about their cleaning and sanitizing regimen.
>
> Brian


Brian: here's the paragraph.

*Sorbate
Most kits contain potassium sorbate. Manufacturers use this
preservative to guarantee the success of their kits in a variety of
sanitary conditions. Sorbate prevents the growth of spoilage
organisms, which could alter the flavor and aroma of the wine as time
passes. As an advanced winemaker, your sanitation should be good
enough to ensure that no spoilage organisms would invade your wine.
So, you have the option of leaving it out. Sorbate has a subtle,
although definite sweetish taste. By leaving the sorbate out of the
kit, we can improve the varietal character and finish.

Anyway, I believe that if I DON'T have to put it in I won't. So to
me, what everyone here says is that if I'm fermenting dry, which this
kit seems to be, I can leave out the sorbate. I plan on doing that
here. I will age it in the carboy for about 90 days until I bottle.

Kevin,
Sorbate is used to prevent yeast from multiplying. In normal amounts it
usually cannot be detected in the taste by most people. In greater amounts I
find it offensive. There has been some misinformation in regards to Sorbate-
mainly that it will "stop" fermentation, when rather it should be said that
it will "inhibit" fermentation. What I mean is that if you have a wine at
say 1. 012 sg and you add the Sorbate hoping to stop the sugar consumption
at 1.012 it will NOT happen. What likely will happen is the colony of yeast
that are alive will finish their lifespan, and not reproduce. That is the
purpose of Sorbate. In a dry wine it is absolutely not necessary. Where it
is often used in kits I believe is to make the kits more "foolproof" so that
if their is a certain amount of sugar remaining in the wine due to an
incomplete fermentation, the Sorbate will be insurance against a mild
refermentation that will at the least throw a sediment in the bottle, and
possibly carbonate or explode bottles. I have no idea what spoilage
organisms that the manufactures are alluding to that Sorbate is supposed to
prevent the growth of. The first half of their explanation sounded like
Potassium Metabisulphite, right up until they mention of the sweetish taste
which definitely is a Sorbate trait. Incidentally- of all the chemicals that
you may choose not to add, I would not skip the Potassium Metabisulphite
additions. HTH
John Dixon
"





> Brian: here's the paragraph.
>
> *Sorbate
> Most kits contain potassium sorbate. Manufacturers use this
> preservative to guarantee the success of their kits in a variety of
> sanitary conditions. Sorbate prevents the growth of spoilage
> organisms, which could alter the flavor and aroma of the wine as time
> passes. As an advanced winemaker, your sanitation should be good
> enough to ensure that no spoilage organisms would invade your wine.
> So, you have the option of leaving it out. Sorbate has a subtle,
> although definite sweetish taste. By leaving the sorbate out of the
> kit, we can improve the varietal character and finish.
>
> Anyway, I believe that if I DON'T have to put it in I won't. So to
> me, what everyone here says is that if I'm fermenting dry, which this
> kit seems to be, I can leave out the sorbate. I plan on doing that
> here. I will age it in the carboy for about 90 days until I bottle.

"Kevin" > wrote in message
om...
[snip]> Sounds good. I brewed a Reisling, no F pack. What's the diff
between
> sorbate and sulfite? Doesn't the sulfite kill yeast? What's the
> purpose of the two?
Sulfite inhibits bacteria such as lactobacter & acetobacter, but only does
this if the levels of free sulfite are appropriate to the pH of the wine. It
really has no effect on the yeast. Sorbate inhibits yeast budding, or
growth, but does nothing to stop bacteria. If you use sorbate and no
sulfite, and if lactobacter starts up, you will have unpleasant flavours
develop. So if you use sorbate, also use sulfite at the appropriate levels.

Steve

> Sorbate is used to prevent yeast from multiplying. In normal amounts it
> usually cannot be detected in the taste by most people. <snip>

I've read that you can become sensitive to the taste once you
know what it is and start being able to detect it at lower
and lower concentrations. Many people do not like that slight
taste that it imparts.

If your finishing your wine dry then you don't need it. Give
your wine an extra week or four after you think fermentation
is done. Don't open it or mess with it to let oxygen in since
you probably have a bit of an air space in it. Walk away and
forget it. Then come back and pick up in the instructions
where you left off but skip the sorbate.

Don