my wine, as i mentioned before, is in the garage as we speak. i was planning on
leaving it out here for a few days then bringing it in, and before bottling
which will be in late jan or in feb, degas it then fine it. but from what i
have heard,,everybody else seems to add the betonite BEFORE coldstabilizing
it?!?!? so, am i doing this backwards or does it not matter too much.
currently we are in the 30's here where i live, by mid week we will be in the
teens and 20s so my bottles will be coming in very soon, dopnt know id i got
rid of any tartaric acid or not so perhaps this whole thing was a waste of time
....any thoughts out there? thansk bunch

"MOhar871" > wrote in message
...
> my wine, as i mentioned before, is in the garage as we speak. i was
planning on
> leaving it out here for a few days then bringing it in, and before
bottling
> which will be in late jan or in feb, degas it then fine it. but from what
i
> have heard,,everybody else seems to add the betonite BEFORE
coldstabilizing
> it?!?!? so, am i doing this backwards or does it not matter too much.
> currently we are in the 30's here where i live, by mid week we will be in
the
> teens and 20s so my bottles will be coming in very soon, dopnt know id i
got
> rid of any tartaric acid or not so perhaps this whole thing was a waste of
time
> ...any thoughts out there? thansk bunch

Here are some thoughts.

Sometimes a new wine will have several defects, and it will be obvious to
the winemaker that multiple fining treatments will be needed. In general,
fining operations are done in the following sequence. (1) Treat any hydrogen
sulfide problems with copper sulfate as soon as fermentation is done. (2)
Cold stabilize the wine to remove potassium bitartrate. Chilling also helps
clean up the wine, and it reduces the microbe population. (3) Use protein
materials (gelatin, casein, Isinglass, egg whites, etc.) to fine the wine
for astringency, clarity or color problems. (4) Fine with bentonite to
remove excess protein and make white and blush wines hot stabile. The
bentonite fining will help remove any left over protein material, and it may
also improve wine clarity. But, small wineries often depart from the
sequence given above to reduce handling. They fine their white and blush
wines with bentonite and then immediately cold stabilize the wine. During
cold stabilization, the soft bentonite lees are compacted by the tartrate
crystals, and the compacted lees make racking much easier.

I don't fine reds unless they need it, although Bentonite fining of
whites to strip out troublesome protein is a good idea. Cold
stabilization is also a good idea, but you need to keep the wine cold
for at least three weeks. Put a thermometer next to the carboy and
watch it. Air temp will drop (or rise) many hours before the wine
temp changes, but do not let a wine drop below 25 degrees F. or it
will freeze and be a disaster (airlock will push out, wine will
overflow, and then the carboy will probably break).

If you can't control the temp, bring it inside when the temp drops
below 25. However, you can build a "cold box" for sub-25 degree
weather. All you need is a cardboard box tall enough for the carboy
with airlock and a couple of inches clearance all around. Run an
extension cord into it with a 7-watt night-light (no stronger!). Turn
on the light, being careful to make sure it does not touch the
cardboard box. Close up the box and the wine will not freeze even if
the temp drops to zero.

Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page
http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/

Lum,
Are you saying that you would fine out the bitterness in whites
immediately without letting age try to do it?? Isn't most young wine
somewhat astringent anyway? You don't let the wine bulk age first
before you start fining? Do you always cold stabilize right after
fermentation and what about MLF, do you let that finish if you making
a chardonnay, for example?

On another note, if I was making a fruity wine would the sequence be
fermentation, sulfite to stop MLF, fine then cold stablize?

TIA,

Bob

"Lum" > wrote in message >...
> "MOhar871" > wrote in message
> ...
> > my wine, as i mentioned before, is in the garage as we speak. i was
> planning on
> > leaving it out here for a few days then bringing it in, and before
> bottling
> > which will be in late jan or in feb, degas it then fine it. but from what
> i
> > have heard,,everybody else seems to add the betonite BEFORE
> coldstabilizing
> > it?!?!? so, am i doing this backwards or does it not matter too much.
> > currently we are in the 30's here where i live, by mid week we will be in
> the
> > teens and 20s so my bottles will be coming in very soon, dopnt know id i
> got
> > rid of any tartaric acid or not so perhaps this whole thing was a waste of
> time
> > ...any thoughts out there? thansk bunch
>
> Here are some thoughts.
>
> Sometimes a new wine will have several defects, and it will be obvious to
> the winemaker that multiple fining treatments will be needed. In general,
> fining operations are done in the following sequence. (1) Treat any hydrogen
> sulfide problems with copper sulfate as soon as fermentation is done. (2)
> Cold stabilize the wine to remove potassium bitartrate. Chilling also helps
> clean up the wine, and it reduces the microbe population. (3) Use protein
> materials (gelatin, casein, Isinglass, egg whites, etc.) to fine the wine
> for astringency, clarity or color problems. (4) Fine with bentonite to
> remove excess protein and make white and blush wines hot stabile. The
> bentonite fining will help remove any left over protein material, and it may
> also improve wine clarity. But, small wineries often depart from the
> sequence given above to reduce handling. They fine their white and blush
> wines with bentonite and then immediately cold stabilize the wine. During
> cold stabilization, the soft bentonite lees are compacted by the tartrate
> crystals, and the compacted lees make racking much easier.

"bob" > wrote in message
om...
> Lum,
> Are you saying that you would fine out the bitterness in whites
> immediately without letting age try to do it?? Isn't most young wine
> somewhat astringent anyway? You don't let the wine bulk age first
> before you start fining?

Hi Bob,
I didn't mean to imply _when_ fining should be done. My intent was to list
the preferred order of fining operations when multiple fining treatments are
needed. For example.... bentonite is used to remove excess protein.
Gelatin is protein. So fining with bentonite and _then_ fining with gelatin
makes little sense.

> Do you always cold stabilize right after
> fermentation and what about MLF, do you let that finish if you making
> a chardonnay, for example?

Yes. Treating for hydrogen sulfide should be done as soon as possible, but
most of the other fining treatments are best done late in the winemaking
process. Sorry about the confusion.

> On another note, if I was making a fruity wine would the sequence be
> fermentation, sulfite to stop MLF, fine then cold stablize?

If I were making a "fruity" Chardonnay, I would (1) ferment to dryness, (2)
add SO2, (3) do nothing except stir the lees and maintain SO2 for ~90 days
(many people prefer to rack off the yeast lees much earlier but I think the
improved mouth feel and the lighter color are more important than the small
loss in fruit), (4) fine with bentonite and immediately start cold
stabilization, (5) rack off the Bentonite lees, (6) bottle using a tight pad
filter after a few weeks.

Please note that "cold stabilization" is really only applicable to wines
containing large amounts of tartaric acid (wines made from grapes).

Regards,
lum

> > "Lum" > wrote in message
>...
> > "MOhar871" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > my wine, as i mentioned before, is in the garage as we speak. i was
> > planning on
> > > leaving it out here for a few days then bringing it in, and before
> > bottling
> > > which will be in late jan or in feb, degas it then fine it. but from
what
> > i
> > > have heard,,everybody else seems to add the betonite BEFORE
> > coldstabilizing
> > > it?!?!? so, am i doing this backwards or does it not matter too much.
> > > currently we are in the 30's here where i live, by mid week we will be
in
> > the
> > > teens and 20s so my bottles will be coming in very soon, dopnt know id
i
> > got
> > > rid of any tartaric acid or not so perhaps this whole thing was a
waste of
> > time
> > > ...any thoughts out there? thansk bunch
> >
> > Here are some thoughts.
> >
> > Sometimes a new wine will have several defects, and it will be obvious
to
> > the winemaker that multiple fining treatments will be needed. In
general,
> > fining operations are done in the following sequence. (1) Treat any
hydrogen
> > sulfide problems with copper sulfate as soon as fermentation is done.
(2)
> > Cold stabilize the wine to remove potassium bitartrate. Chilling also
helps
> > clean up the wine, and it reduces the microbe population. (3) Use
protein
> > materials (gelatin, casein, Isinglass, egg whites, etc.) to fine the
wine
> > for astringency, clarity or color problems. (4) Fine with bentonite to
> > remove excess protein and make white and blush wines hot stabile. The
> > bentonite fining will help remove any left over protein material, and it
may
> > also improve wine clarity. But, small wineries often depart from the
> > sequence given above to reduce handling. They fine their white and
blush
> > wines with bentonite and then immediately cold stabilize the wine.
During
> > cold stabilization, the soft bentonite lees are compacted by the
tartrate
> > crystals, and the compacted lees make racking much easier.

Lum,

You weren't confusing at all. I always appreciate anyone taking the
time to answer my questions, especially someone as knowledgable as
yourself. Like so many others on this board , your very generous and I
appreciate it.

Thanks again,

Bob


"Lum" > wrote in message >...
> "bob" > wrote in message
> om...
> > Lum,
> > Are you saying that you would fine out the bitterness in whites
> > immediately without letting age try to do it?? Isn't most young wine
> > somewhat astringent anyway? You don't let the wine bulk age first
> > before you start fining?
>
> Hi Bob,
> I didn't mean to imply _when_ fining should be done. My intent was to list
> the preferred order of fining operations when multiple fining treatments are
> needed. For example.... bentonite is used to remove excess protein.
> Gelatin is protein. So fining with bentonite and _then_ fining with gelatin
> makes little sense.
>
> > Do you always cold stabilize right after
> > fermentation and what about MLF, do you let that finish if you making
> > a chardonnay, for example?
>
> Yes. Treating for hydrogen sulfide should be done as soon as possible, but
> most of the other fining treatments are best done late in the winemaking
> process. Sorry about the confusion.
>
> > On another note, if I was making a fruity wine would the sequence be
> > fermentation, sulfite to stop MLF, fine then cold stablize?
>
> If I were making a "fruity" Chardonnay, I would (1) ferment to dryness, (2)
> add SO2, (3) do nothing except stir the lees and maintain SO2 for ~90 days
> (many people prefer to rack off the yeast lees much earlier but I think the
> improved mouth feel and the lighter color are more important than the small
> loss in fruit), (4) fine with bentonite and immediately start cold
> stabilization, (5) rack off the Bentonite lees, (6) bottle using a tight pad
> filter after a few weeks.
>
> Please note that "cold stabilization" is really only applicable to wines
> containing large amounts of tartaric acid (wines made from grapes).
>
> Regards,
> lum
>
> > > "Lum" > wrote in message
> >...
> > > "MOhar871" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > my wine, as i mentioned before, is in the garage as we speak. i was
> planning on
> > > > leaving it out here for a few days then bringing it in, and before
> bottling
> > > > which will be in late jan or in feb, degas it then fine it. but from
> what
> i
> > > > have heard,,everybody else seems to add the betonite BEFORE
> coldstabilizing
> > > > it?!?!? so, am i doing this backwards or does it not matter too much.
> > > > currently we are in the 30's here where i live, by mid week we will be
> in
> the
> > > > teens and 20s so my bottles will be coming in very soon, dopnt know id
> i
> got
> > > > rid of any tartaric acid or not so perhaps this whole thing was a
> waste of
> time
> > > > ...any thoughts out there? thansk bunch
> > >
> > > Here are some thoughts.
> > >
> > > Sometimes a new wine will have several defects, and it will be obvious
> to
> > > the winemaker that multiple fining treatments will be needed. In
> general,
> > > fining operations are done in the following sequence. (1) Treat any
> hydrogen
> > > sulfide problems with copper sulfate as soon as fermentation is done.
> (2)
> > > Cold stabilize the wine to remove potassium bitartrate. Chilling also
> helps
> > > clean up the wine, and it reduces the microbe population. (3) Use
> protein
> > > materials (gelatin, casein, Isinglass, egg whites, etc.) to fine the
> wine
> > > for astringency, clarity or color problems. (4) Fine with bentonite to
> > > remove excess protein and make white and blush wines hot stabile. The
> > > bentonite fining will help remove any left over protein material, and it
> may
> > > also improve wine clarity. But, small wineries often depart from the
> > > sequence given above to reduce handling. They fine their white and
> blush
> > > wines with bentonite and then immediately cold stabilize the wine.
> During
> > > cold stabilization, the soft bentonite lees are compacted by the
> tartrate
> > > crystals, and the compacted lees make racking much easier.

Thanks for the kind words Bob. They are much appreciated.
lum

"bob" > wrote in message
om...
> Lum,
>
> You weren't confusing at all. I always appreciate anyone taking the
> time to answer my questions, especially someone as knowledgable as
> yourself. Like so many others on this board , your very generous and I
> appreciate it.
>
> Thanks again,
>
> Bob