Michael Brill ) wrote:
(David C Breeden) wrote in message >...
>>
>> I think you've got it backwards. People stir Chardonnay aged sur
>> lie because (for one reasons of many) the lees absorb oxygen, even
>> more effectively than SO2 does. And since in France, where the
>> practice is common, SO2 is often not added until after ML finishes
>> naturally in the spring, this batonnage is really important in
>> helping prevent oxidation.
>>
>Let me try this again. I see at least three reasons to stir lees:

>(1) absorb oxygen (i.e., oxygenate) to avoid reductive problems in the
>lees such as H2S
>(2) get greater exposure of the leesy goodness to the wine
>(3) remove oxygen from the wine

>I guess the question is really about how much oxygen is in the wine?
>I was under the impression that there was very little oxygen in the
>wine and therefore stirring up lees in a bunch of oxygen-free wine
>wouldn't do much to oxygenate the lees. But it sounds like this may
>be wrong... that indeed the wine does contain a meaningful amount of
>oxygen that can be absorbed by the lees. Correct?

>...Michael


Dunno. I haven't seen your wines. I think the idea is to remove
any oxygen that might be there, since the wine has no SO2 and is
therefore utterly unprotected against oxygen. The strring is done to
expose the wine to the lees, and as an extra added bonus, the
stirring is an antioxidant.

Dave
************************************************** **************************
Dave Breeden

It is my understanding that after fermentation, the dead yeast cells still
contain active enzymes that quickly scavenge any oxygen that the wine would
pick up from periodic stirring. Excessive stirring, however, can introduce
oxygen to a point beyond the capacity of the available enzymes and can cause
oxidation. I currently have a 6 gallon batch of Viognier aging sur lie but
I am stirring it continuously using a magnetic stirrer so I never have to
open the container. I want to see what happens with this degree of stirring
when the risk of oxidation is removed.

"David C Breeden" > wrote in message
...
> Michael Brill ) wrote:
> (David C Breeden) wrote in message
>...
> >>
> >> I think you've got it backwards. People stir Chardonnay aged sur
> >> lie because (for one reasons of many) the lees absorb oxygen, even
> >> more effectively than SO2 does. And since in France, where the
> >> practice is common, SO2 is often not added until after ML finishes
> >> naturally in the spring, this batonnage is really important in
> >> helping prevent oxidation.
> >>
> >Let me try this again. I see at least three reasons to stir lees:
>
> >(1) absorb oxygen (i.e., oxygenate) to avoid reductive problems in the
> >lees such as H2S
> >(2) get greater exposure of the leesy goodness to the wine
> >(3) remove oxygen from the wine
>
> >I guess the question is really about how much oxygen is in the wine?
> >I was under the impression that there was very little oxygen in the
> >wine and therefore stirring up lees in a bunch of oxygen-free wine
> >wouldn't do much to oxygenate the lees. But it sounds like this may
> >be wrong... that indeed the wine does contain a meaningful amount of
> >oxygen that can be absorbed by the lees. Correct?
>
> >...Michael
>
>
> Dunno. I haven't seen your wines. I think the idea is to remove
> any oxygen that might be there, since the wine has no SO2 and is
> therefore utterly unprotected against oxygen. The strring is done to
> expose the wine to the lees, and as an extra added bonus, the
> stirring is an antioxidant.
>
> Dave
>
************************************************** **************************
> Dave Breeden

Michael Brill wrote:
> I guess the question is really about how much oxygen is in the wine?
> I was under the impression that there was very little oxygen in the
> wine and therefore stirring up lees in a bunch of oxygen-free wine
> wouldn't do much to oxygenate the lees. But it sounds like this may
> be wrong... that indeed the wine does contain a meaningful amount of
> oxygen that can be absorbed by the lees. Correct?

How much oxygen the wine contains will depends on how much oxygen
exposure it's had. Different methods of stirring will obviously
introduce different amounts of O2, and the amount of lees (amongst
other things) will determine how much of that O2 is absorbed. Without
a DO meter you really can't get an accurate figure on any of this.
However, I think it's enough to just use common sense and your sense
of smell to detect what stage the wine is at (i.e. whether it's in a
more reductive or oxidative state).

Aaron Puhala wrote:
> oxidation. I currently have a 6 gallon batch of Viognier aging sur lie but
> I am stirring it continuously using a magnetic stirrer so I never have to
> open the container. I want to see what happens with this degree of stirring
> when the risk of oxidation is removed.

I have done in-vessel stirring (i.e. without any opening of the
vessel) and have found that if you keep it up for long enough the wine
will become reductive. If I were you, I'd keep close tabs on the wine
(taste it relatively regularly) to check where it's at.

Ben

Thanks for the tip. I'll make sure I check and provide a little air if
necessary. How did your in-vessel stirred wines turn out? Did you stir
continuously?

"Ben Rotter" > wrote in message
om...
> Michael Brill wrote:
> > I guess the question is really about how much oxygen is in the wine?
> > I was under the impression that there was very little oxygen in the
> > wine and therefore stirring up lees in a bunch of oxygen-free wine
> > wouldn't do much to oxygenate the lees. But it sounds like this may
> > be wrong... that indeed the wine does contain a meaningful amount of
> > oxygen that can be absorbed by the lees. Correct?
>
> How much oxygen the wine contains will depends on how much oxygen
> exposure it's had. Different methods of stirring will obviously
> introduce different amounts of O2, and the amount of lees (amongst
> other things) will determine how much of that O2 is absorbed. Without
> a DO meter you really can't get an accurate figure on any of this.
> However, I think it's enough to just use common sense and your sense
> of smell to detect what stage the wine is at (i.e. whether it's in a
> more reductive or oxidative state).
>
> Aaron Puhala wrote:
> > oxidation. I currently have a 6 gallon batch of Viognier aging sur lie
but
> > I am stirring it continuously using a magnetic stirrer so I never have
to
> > open the container. I want to see what happens with this degree of
stirring
> > when the risk of oxidation is removed.
>
> I have done in-vessel stirring (i.e. without any opening of the
> vessel) and have found that if you keep it up for long enough the wine
> will become reductive. If I were you, I'd keep close tabs on the wine
> (taste it relatively regularly) to check where it's at.
>
> Ben

"Aaron Puhala" > wrote:
> Thanks for the tip. I'll make sure I check and provide a little air if
> necessary. How did your in-vessel stirred wines turn out? Did you stir
> continuously?

I do periodic stirring (usually once every 2-3 days) using a food
turntable (see http://members.tripod.com/~BRotter/Surlie.htm for a
pic).
Stirring has given the wines more body and complexity and I'm quite
happy with the results (though it is a stylistic choice). I have had
some problems with wines going reductive, but if you monitor and
correct when the problem arises there's no problem.

Ben

"David C Breeden" > wrote in message
...
> The strring is done to
> expose the wine to the lees, and as an extra added bonus, the
> stirring is an antioxidant.

One thing nobody's mentioned is that stirring exposes the wine to the
relatively un-extracted oak at the bottom of the barrel.

Tom S