Hey guys! I'm a longtime brewer, but new winemaker (other than meads). I
currently have a saignée of cabernet sauvingnon and cabernet franc (about
4/5 of the former, 1/5 of the latter) that is hopelessly stuck.

Started off with 5 Campden tablets and the appropriate amount of Fermax for
the 5 gallons, let it rest 24 hours, then pitched a couple packets of
rehydrated Lalvin D47. Started fermenting like gangbusters...went from 20°
Brix to 6° in a matter of 4 or 5 days, then stuck. Didn't move in Brix or
bubbles in the airlock for a few days. So, I added a bit of yeast
energizer...nada. Added more yeast nutrient...nada. Added another packet of
D47...nada. So, did a starter of Premier Cuvée, which was roaring when
pitched. Fermentation seemed to restart but again stuck at 6° Brix (I added
about a quarter of a cup of sugar to the 700cc starter). Any thoughts? Temps
have been anywhere from 66°-72°F.

--
ACEY

"Jonathan Acey Albert" > wrote in message
...
> Hey guys! I'm a longtime brewer, but new winemaker (other than meads). I
> currently have a saignée of cabernet sauvingnon and cabernet franc (about
> 4/5 of the former, 1/5 of the latter) that is hopelessly stuck.
>
> Started off with 5 Campden tablets and the appropriate amount of Fermax
for
> the 5 gallons, let it rest 24 hours, then pitched a couple packets of
> rehydrated Lalvin D47. Started fermenting like gangbusters...went from 20°
> Brix to 6° in a matter of 4 or 5 days, then stuck. Didn't move in Brix or
> bubbles in the airlock for a few days. So, I added a bit of yeast
> energizer...nada. Added more yeast nutrient...nada. Added another packet
of
> D47...nada. So, did a starter of Premier Cuvée, which was roaring when
> pitched. Fermentation seemed to restart but again stuck at 6° Brix (I
added
> about a quarter of a cup of sugar to the 700cc starter). Any thoughts?
Temps
> have been anywhere from 66°-72°F.
>
> --
> ACEY

Jonathan,
Does your stuck fermentation have a "hot" aftertaste?
lum

I was told by my supplier that once the alcohol level reaches a point,
it kills the yeast, so mabee this is your problem. He told me to use
champagne yeast as it is most resillient to alcohol. Been using it
with sucess in higher octane wines (14-16%). Good luck.

"PA-ter" > wrote:
> I was told by my supplier that once the alcohol level reaches a point,
> it kills the yeast, so mabee this is your problem. He told me to use
> champagne yeast as it is most resillient to alcohol. Been using it
> with sucess in higher octane wines (14-16%). Good luck.

Your supplier is correct, however the yeast Mr. Albert mentions (Lavlin D47)
is alcohol tolerant to about 14%. The starting Brix of 20º he mentioned
would only yield about 11.4 % alcohol --- if fermented to dryness. But,
since it stuck at 6º Brix, there is currently less than 8% alcohol in the
wine! The stated must temperature is also within acceptable range for this
yeast. Thus, there must be another reason for the stuck fermentation. It
can't be lack of nutrients, since he added some. Unless he added to much
nitrogen? Perhaps the pH or TA is outside of the acceptable range?

I'm very curious as to what Lum is alluding when he asked, "Does your stuck
fermentation have a "hot" aftertaste?"

>
> Jonathan,
> Does your stuck fermentation have a "hot" aftertaste?
> lum

What are you thinking Lum?

Don

> Thus, there must be another reason for the stuck fermentation. It
> can't be lack of nutrients, since he added some. Unless he added to much
> nitrogen? Perhaps the pH or TA is outside of the acceptable range?

Good thought, since I don't test for either pH or TA. Since the only pH
measurement I could do quickly today was to grab a MultiStix urinalysis
dipstick from the hospital today...doesn't really help, since the lowest pH
it will measure in urine is 5.0 (D'Oh!). Well, at least that's proof that my
wine is not ****.

Interestingly, the test showed negative to trace glucose, but the SG
correlates with my Brix measurement. Nitrites were negative. Blood positive
(huh...it's a Saignée, but that's ridiculous!).

Will try to pick up an acid measurement kit tomorrow.

--
ACEY

> Does your stuck fermentation have a "hot" aftertaste?

Not entirely sure what, specifically, you're speaking of, but no. No hot
aftertaste....just tastes like sweet wine. There is definitely alcohol, but
not what I'd expect.

--
ACEY

"PA-ter" > wrote in message
m...
> I was told by my supplier that once the alcohol level reaches a point,
> it kills the yeast, so mabee this is your problem. He told me to use
> champagne yeast as it is most resillient to alcohol.

As others have said, D47 should easily be tolerant to the 8% alcohol by vol.
in the wine now. Even so, the Red Star Premier Cuvée is actually an
excellent champagne yeast (better than Pasteur Champagne, to my knowledge),
and very tolerant to sulfites to boot.

--
ACEY

"Negodki" > wrote:
> Your supplier is correct, however the yeast Mr. Albert mentions (Lavlin
D47)
> is alcohol tolerant to about 14%.

Hey, stop that "Mr. Albert" stuff! I'm Dr. Albert...seriously, Acey is great
(that Dr. stuff still scares me a bit).

Can too much nitrogen be a problem? How so?

--
ACEY

"Jonathan Acey Albert" > wrote:

> Can too much nitrogen be a problem? How so?

Most yeast nutrients and "energizers" contain a large amount of diammonium
phosphate, which provides nitrogen to the yeast cells. I believe, like
plants, they use it for fuel. It's my understanding that too much nitrogen
can be counterproductive, and kill the yeast. Sort of like "too much"
alcohol (a mythical quantity I've never encountered) being dangerous to your
health.

"Jonathan Acey Albert" > wrote in message
...
> > Does your stuck fermentation have a "hot" aftertaste?
>
> Not entirely sure what, specifically, you're speaking of, but no. No hot
> aftertaste....just tastes like sweet wine. There is definitely alcohol,
but
> not what I'd expect.
>
> --
> ACEY

Hi Acey,

Acetic acid is toxic to all strains of Saccharomyces (wine) yeast.
Fermentation slows when the acetic acid content exceeds about 0.1 percent,
and when the acetic acid exceeds 0.2 to 0.3 percent, few viable yeast cells
can be found.

Low acid, high pH grapes are common in warm growing regions. Controlling
native bacteria with sulfur dioxide is difficult when the pH of the juice is
high, and a large population of Lactobacillus bacteria sometimes develops
during the primary sugar fermentation. The bacteria convert grape sugars
directly into acetic acid, and the acetic acid content of the fermentation
becomes excessive. Under these conditions, little or no ethyl acetate is
produced, and without ethyl acetate, the winemaker is often unaware of the
problem. The lactic bacteria can quickly raise the acetic acid level of the
juice into the range of 0.1 or more. The yeast is unable to tolerate such
high concentrations of acetic acid and the fermentation sticks. This kind
of stuck fermentation is very difficult to restart because of the excessive
amounts of acetic acid, and the fermentation is often a total loss.

Acetic acid produces a distinctive, "hot" aftertaste. But, your wine tastes
OK, so I don't know what to suggest to help you ferment out that residual
sugar. Sorry.
lum

I'm thinking more like if the starting sugar content gave you a
potential alcohol content of 20%, & the remaining content is 6%, then
you have achieved 14%. If the yeast mentioned is tolerant to 14%, then
the story is told, unless my math is rusty. I use a hydrometer to see
where I'm at before & after & I was always under the impression that
that's how it all worked. I backup the end result with an alcohol
content tester & it always agrees with the hydrometer. If I'm wrong,
please fill me in.

"PA-ter" > wrote in message
om...
> I'm thinking more like if the starting sugar content gave you a
> potential alcohol content of 20%, & the remaining content is 6%, then
> you have achieved 14%. If the yeast mentioned is tolerant to 14%, then
> the story is told, unless my math is rusty. I use a hydrometer to see
> where I'm at before & after & I was always under the impression that
> that's how it all worked. I backup the end result with an alcohol
> content tester & it always agrees with the hydrometer. If I'm wrong,
> please fill me in.

You are confusing "Brix" with "potential alcohol". Brix is the percent of
sugar in the juice. The potential alcohol is estimated to be 0.55 (or .57)
times the Brix of the unfermented juice. Thus a starting Brix of 20º =
11-11.4% potential alcohol, not 20%.

A winemaking "hydrometer" may measure specific gravity, Brix, potential
alcohol, or all three.

What sort of "alcohol tester" do you use? I had a "vinometer" that showed
every dry wine as being 30%. I threw it away.

Little glass device that looks like a thermometer with a straight
funnel at one end & graduated on the stem. About 4" long. Pour your
wine in the big end & let it drip thru the small end, flip it over &
the liquid runs out but enough remains in the tube to indicate the %.
Used mine on a merlot I made from a kit @11% & my apple anywhere from
12 to 16% and as stated above always backs up the hydrometer readings
very close.

> Acetic acid produces a distinctive, "hot" aftertaste. But, your wine
tastes
> OK, so I don't know what to suggest to help you ferment out that residual
> sugar. Sorry.


Lum,

Thanks for the input. There's definitely no vinegary taste or aroma to the
wine right now, but it is possible.

In talking to the vineyard owner, he reports generally apporopriate TA and
pH in his cab. sauvingnon and cab. franc musts. However, this is the first
time he and I have actually made saignées. His stayed on the skins for about
8 hours longer than mine, and is fermenting along very well with no acidity
adjustments.

I'm taking a sample to the hospital lab tomorrow for pH measurement...will
see if we can measure acetic acid (don't think so).

--
ACEY