Okay... Tom S., if you're out there... I'm the fellow with the
Chardonnay juice that had foam pour out of the demijohn the other night. If
you'll remember, I was trying to adjust the pH to a proper reading for
Enoferm Alpha ML bacteria.

My wine is approaching final fermentation. SG is 1.012 and I'm confused
by my pH/TA readings. After adjusting the pH the other night, pH was at
3.22 with TA at start of fermentation at .95. Now, the pH is at 3.46 with
TA still at .95. Now, I'm sure the pH was rising the other night because
the TA was increasing due to fermentation, so I must have knocked the TA
down enough so it eventually rose back to the current .95 reading. But now
the pH is also rising to amounts that concern me.

Two questions:

1) What is the acceptable pH range for ML fermentation using Enoferm
Alpha? I thought it was between 3.2 and 3.4. If it spikes to 3.5 or 3.6,
will I run into problems? If so, what would you do?

2) What is the acceptable SG range to pitch the ML bacteria? I remember
you said you would do it at the beginning of fermentation. I'm following
the manufacturer's recommendation to do it after fermentation. Would a SG
of 1.00 be acceptable for pitching the bacteria?

If so, I'm racking the juice and lees on Friday night to two carboys
that allow me to top-off.

Thanks for the help, folks!

-Paul

"Paul S. Remington" > wrote in message
...
> Okay... Tom S., if you're out there... I'm the fellow with the
> Chardonnay juice that had foam pour out of the demijohn the other night.
If
> you'll remember, I was trying to adjust the pH to a proper reading for
> Enoferm Alpha ML bacteria.
>
> My wine is approaching final fermentation. SG is 1.012 and I'm
confused
> by my pH/TA readings. After adjusting the pH the other night, pH was at
> 3.22 with TA at start of fermentation at .95. Now, the pH is at 3.46 with
> TA still at .95. Now, I'm sure the pH was rising the other night because
> the TA was increasing due to fermentation, so I must have knocked the TA
> down enough so it eventually rose back to the current .95 reading. But
now
> the pH is also rising to amounts that concern me.
>
> Two questions:
>
> 1) What is the acceptable pH range for ML fermentation using Enoferm
> Alpha? I thought it was between 3.2 and 3.4. If it spikes to 3.5 or 3.6,
> will I run into problems?

ML goes easier at higher pH and/or temperatures. Judging by the rise in pH
you've observed, I'd guess that you already have ML going spontaneously.

> 2) What is the acceptable SG range to pitch the ML bacteria? I
remember
> you said you would do it at the beginning of fermentation. I'm following
> the manufacturer's recommendation to do it after fermentation. Would a SG
> of 1.00 be acceptable for pitching the bacteria?

Yes, but that may not be necessary. BTW, have you followed the thread re
degassing samples prior to TA measurements? One other point is that you may
need to chill the excess bitartrates out of the wine to get accurate
readings on TA.

Tom S

Wow... 1) I want the Enoferm ML bacteria to be the predominant bacteria.
If ML is starting prior to my pitching the bacteria, can I still pitch the
Enoferm Alpha? Will it take?

2) TA and degassing the wine... yeah... I always boil my sample
prior to testing it. Cold stabilization is a good point, especially with
the potassium I added. But, won't that just jump my pH further? Should I
be so concerned about these pH levels?

Thanks Tom,

-Paul

"Tom S" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Paul S. Remington" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Okay... Tom S., if you're out there... I'm the fellow with the
> > Chardonnay juice that had foam pour out of the demijohn the other night.
> If
> > you'll remember, I was trying to adjust the pH to a proper reading for
> > Enoferm Alpha ML bacteria.
> >
> > My wine is approaching final fermentation. SG is 1.012 and I'm
> confused
> > by my pH/TA readings. After adjusting the pH the other night, pH was at
> > 3.22 with TA at start of fermentation at .95. Now, the pH is at 3.46
with
> > TA still at .95. Now, I'm sure the pH was rising the other night
because
> > the TA was increasing due to fermentation, so I must have knocked the TA
> > down enough so it eventually rose back to the current .95 reading. But
> now
> > the pH is also rising to amounts that concern me.
> >
> > Two questions:
> >
> > 1) What is the acceptable pH range for ML fermentation using Enoferm
> > Alpha? I thought it was between 3.2 and 3.4. If it spikes to 3.5 or
3.6,
> > will I run into problems?
>
> ML goes easier at higher pH and/or temperatures. Judging by the rise in
pH
> you've observed, I'd guess that you already have ML going spontaneously.
>
> > 2) What is the acceptable SG range to pitch the ML bacteria? I
> remember
> > you said you would do it at the beginning of fermentation. I'm
following
> > the manufacturer's recommendation to do it after fermentation. Would a
SG
> > of 1.00 be acceptable for pitching the bacteria?
>
> Yes, but that may not be necessary. BTW, have you followed the thread re
> degassing samples prior to TA measurements? One other point is that you
may
> need to chill the excess bitartrates out of the wine to get accurate
> readings on TA.
>
> Tom S
>
>

"Paul S. Remington" > wrote in message
...
> Wow... 1) I want the Enoferm ML bacteria to be the predominant
bacteria.
> If ML is starting prior to my pitching the bacteria, can I still pitch the
> Enoferm Alpha? Will it take?

Yes, but it may not end up the dominant strain in the fermentation. This
highlights the importance of good clarification of the juice after pressing.
The cleaner your juice is prior to fermentation the lower the populations of
things you don't want in there.

> 2) TA and degassing the wine... yeah... I always boil my sample
> prior to testing it. Cold stabilization is a good point, especially with
> the potassium I added. But, won't that just jump my pH further? Should I
> be so concerned about these pH levels?

Yes and no. The excess potassium will eventually chill out of solution,
taking with it a titrable proton per molecule and thereby reducing the TA.
This _may_ affect the pH somewhat, but even if the pH rises a little it'll
still be within acceptable limits. You're doing ML so you wanted soft and
buttery anyway, right?

Tom S

"Tom S" > wrote in message m>...
> "Paul S. Remington" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Wow... 1) I want the Enoferm ML bacteria to be the predominant
> bacteria.
> > If ML is starting prior to my pitching the bacteria, can I still pitch the
> > Enoferm Alpha? Will it take?
>
> Yes, but it may not end up the dominant strain in the fermentation. This
> highlights the importance of good clarification of the juice after pressing.
> The cleaner your juice is prior to fermentation the lower the populations of
> things you don't want in there.

When I purchased the juice from the vineyard, it was stored in a
large steel tank in a very cold room (~40f?). The juice had been
there for a number of days. Another wine maker was ahead of me
purchasing a carboy of Chardonnay. When the woman was filling his
carboy he looked at it with a furrowed brow and said, "My God... how
long has that juice been sitting?" The lady said she didn't know.

The juice that flowed into the carboy was clear... not cloudy.
The winemaker was surprised because he didn't expect to see it so
clear. After my 12 gallons were in the demijohn, it wasn't crystal
clear like a finished wine, but I could see through one side to the
other. After letting it sit for the evening, I saw nothing settled to
the bottom of the vessel. It took over a day at room temperature to
rise to 65f.

Is this considered "clean" or "clarified" juice? Because of that
winemaker's comments, I intended to take a chance and do sur
lie/batonnage on the lees that's thrown during primary. I'm assuming
this is "fine" lees and not "gross" lees, as we discussed a few weeks
back?

Based on this description, will this be a benefit towards the
Enoferm Alpha being able to become the dominant strain? If I pitch
more than the recommended amount, will that help in this process?

> > 2) TA and degassing the wine... yeah... I always boil my sample
> > prior to testing it. Cold stabilization is a good point, especially with
> > the potassium I added. But, won't that just jump my pH further? Should I
> > be so concerned about these pH levels?
>
> Yes and no. The excess potassium will eventually chill out of solution,
> taking with it a titrable proton per molecule and thereby reducing the TA.
> This _may_ affect the pH somewhat, but even if the pH rises a little it'll
> still be within acceptable limits. You're doing ML so you wanted soft and
> buttery anyway, right?

...and oaky - ABSOLUTELY!!! That's my favorite type of
Chardonnay!

The wine was verified at a lab this morning as having a pH of
3.45, averaged between two separate meters. If it stays within the
3.4 and 3.6 range, that would be super! It should be about SG 1.00
this evening. I intend to pitch the nutrients and bacteria tonight,
then rack to two separate carboys that'll remove the excessive
headspace. I'll stir the lees twice a week until ML is complete. At
that time I'll add a dose of meta, cold stabilize, then bung it and
stir once a month. Leave it on its lees and 10oz of oak for six
months before fining with Isinglass AND Bentonite CONCURRENTLY (IS
THIS SAFE?), then bottle.

Does this plan sound okay to you? Any suggestions, please share.

Thanks, Tom, for the help. If it comes out good, I'll ship ya' a
bottle! :-)

-Paul

> Thanks, Tom, for the help. If it comes out good, I'll ship ya' a
>bottle! :-)

If everyone who Tom helped shipped him a bottle, he'd be overrun with wine.

Lee

Paul,
I would certainly consider your juice as "cold settled" or as you stated
clarified. Cant help you with the ML cultures- I put them in and make sure
they finish and that's about it. If I dont put them in sometimes they still
go, and so far to no ill effects.
John Dixon


"Paul S. Remington" > wrote in message
om...
> "Tom S" > wrote in message
m>...
> > "Paul S. Remington" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Wow... 1) I want the Enoferm ML bacteria to be the predominant
> > bacteria.
> > > If ML is starting prior to my pitching the bacteria, can I still pitch
the
> > > Enoferm Alpha? Will it take?
> >
> > Yes, but it may not end up the dominant strain in the fermentation.
This
> > highlights the importance of good clarification of the juice after
pressing.
> > The cleaner your juice is prior to fermentation the lower the
populations of
> > things you don't want in there.
>
> When I purchased the juice from the vineyard, it was stored in a
> large steel tank in a very cold room (~40f?). The juice had been
> there for a number of days. Another wine maker was ahead of me
> purchasing a carboy of Chardonnay. When the woman was filling his
> carboy he looked at it with a furrowed brow and said, "My God... how
> long has that juice been sitting?" The lady said she didn't know.
>
> The juice that flowed into the carboy was clear... not cloudy.
> The winemaker was surprised because he didn't expect to see it so
> clear. After my 12 gallons were in the demijohn, it wasn't crystal
> clear like a finished wine, but I could see through one side to the
> other. After letting it sit for the evening, I saw nothing settled to
> the bottom of the vessel. It took over a day at room temperature to
> rise to 65f.
>
> Is this considered "clean" or "clarified" juice? Because of that
> winemaker's comments, I intended to take a chance and do sur
> lie/batonnage on the lees that's thrown during primary. I'm assuming
> this is "fine" lees and not "gross" lees, as we discussed a few weeks
> back?
>
> Based on this description, will this be a benefit towards the
> Enoferm Alpha being able to become the dominant strain? If I pitch
> more than the recommended amount, will that help in this process?
>
> > > 2) TA and degassing the wine... yeah... I always boil my
sample
> > > prior to testing it. Cold stabilization is a good point, especially
with
> > > the potassium I added. But, won't that just jump my pH further?
Should I
> > > be so concerned about these pH levels?
> >
> > Yes and no. The excess potassium will eventually chill out of solution,
> > taking with it a titrable proton per molecule and thereby reducing the
TA.
> > This _may_ affect the pH somewhat, but even if the pH rises a little
it'll
> > still be within acceptable limits. You're doing ML so you wanted soft
and
> > buttery anyway, right?
>
> ...and oaky - ABSOLUTELY!!! That's my favorite type of
> Chardonnay!
>
> The wine was verified at a lab this morning as having a pH of
> 3.45, averaged between two separate meters. If it stays within the
> 3.4 and 3.6 range, that would be super! It should be about SG 1.00
> this evening. I intend to pitch the nutrients and bacteria tonight,
> then rack to two separate carboys that'll remove the excessive
> headspace. I'll stir the lees twice a week until ML is complete. At
> that time I'll add a dose of meta, cold stabilize, then bung it and
> stir once a month. Leave it on its lees and 10oz of oak for six
> months before fining with Isinglass AND Bentonite CONCURRENTLY (IS
> THIS SAFE?), then bottle.
>
> Does this plan sound okay to you? Any suggestions, please share.
>
> Thanks, Tom, for the help. If it comes out good, I'll ship ya' a
> bottle! :-)
>
> -Paul

"Paul S. Remington" > wrote in message
om...
> When I purchased the juice from the vineyard, it was stored in a
> large steel tank in a very cold room (~40f?). The juice had been
> there for a number of days. Another wine maker was ahead of me
> purchasing a carboy of Chardonnay. When the woman was filling his
> carboy he looked at it with a furrowed brow and said, "My God... how
> long has that juice been sitting?" The lady said she didn't know.
>
> The juice that flowed into the carboy was clear... not cloudy.
> The winemaker was surprised because he didn't expect to see it so
> clear. After my 12 gallons were in the demijohn, it wasn't crystal
> clear like a finished wine, but I could see through one side to the
> other. After letting it sit for the evening, I saw nothing settled to
> the bottom of the vessel. It took over a day at room temperature to
> rise to 65f.
>
> Is this considered "clean" or "clarified" juice?

You can't do much better than that.

Because of that
> winemaker's comments, I intended to take a chance and do sur
> lie/batonnage on the lees that's thrown during primary. I'm assuming
> this is "fine" lees and not "gross" lees, as we discussed a few weeks
> back?

Yes, but there will be considerable volume of "fine" lees.

> Based on this description, will this be a benefit towards the
> Enoferm Alpha being able to become the dominant strain? If I pitch
> more than the recommended amount, will that help in this process?

Can't hurt.

> I intend to pitch the nutrients and bacteria tonight,
> then rack to two separate carboys that'll remove the excessive
> headspace. I'll stir the lees twice a week until ML is complete. At
> that time I'll add a dose of meta, cold stabilize, then bung it and
> stir once a month. Leave it on its lees and 10oz of oak for six
> months before fining with Isinglass AND Bentonite CONCURRENTLY (IS
> THIS SAFE?), then bottle.
>
> Does this plan sound okay to you? Any suggestions, please share.

I'd add kieselsohl to that fining regimen and do the cold stabilization
_after_ fining, so that the bitartrate crystals will tend to form on top of
the fining lees and trap/tamp them down.

Tom S

Thanks for the reply, Tom...

"Tom S" > wrote in message
om...
>
> I'd add kieselsohl to that fining regimen and do the cold stabilization
> _after_ fining, so that the bitartrate crystals will tend to form on top
of
> the fining lees and trap/tamp them down.

I'm dealing with an issue of timing. I cold stabilize in a garage,
which is only cold enough to precipitate the potassium through early March.
So, I was thinking of cold stabilizing in December or January so I can take
advantage of the garage, then long term ageing. I thought I read someplace
it's okay to long term age with bitartrate in the carboy... perhaps not with
the finings though? Batonnage with finings is a strange concept.

Perhaps a modification to this regimen would be to let it sit until late
February, then cold stabilize while the garage is ~30f or so. Suggestions?

Couple of more quick questions... I've never used kieselsohl before;
I'll read-up on it. Should I add it to the Bentonite and isinglass finings,
or add the Bentonite with isinglass, rack, then add Kieselsohl and rack? Is
it okay to blend all the fining agents and pitch them at the same time?

Last question (thanks for tolerating all my questions)... I racked
everything to two carboys this evening and everything is going swimmingly.
Paper chromatography shows tartaric and malic acids are high with lactic
barely perceptible, so ML is either just underway or has not begun. Real
_tiny_ bubbles are slowly rising with much larger, faster rising bubbles...
don't know if the smaller bubbles are an indication of ML fermentation.
Regardless, I pitched the Enoferm Alpha with ACTI-ML prior to racking.

My question is... I was left with barely a quart of extra juice. Should
I let this ferment out (ML and remaining sugar), or is it safe to freeze and
use later for topping? Or, should I toss it down the drain? Any
suggestions on what I should do with this little amount? I have it in a 1/2
gallon jug with airlock at present, with 1/4 gallon of airspace! <cringe>

-Paul

"Paul S. Remington" > wrote in message
...
> I was thinking of cold stabilizing in December or January so I can take
> advantage of the garage, then long term aging. I thought I read someplace
> it's okay to long term age with bitartrate in the carboy... perhaps not
with
> the finings though? Batonnage with finings is a strange concept.

Fining is normally done last thing before bottling. How can you know what
fining regimen to use until the wine has completed oaking? Also, part of
the reason for fining is to address the roughness of the wood.

> Couple of more quick questions... I've never used kieselsohl before;
> I'll read-up on it. Should I add it to the Bentonite and isinglass
finings,
> or add the Bentonite with isinglass, rack, then add Kieselsohl and rack?
Is
> it okay to blend all the fining agents and pitch them at the same time?

I've never tried that. I add them sequentially, a few minutes apart.

> My question is... I was left with barely a quart of extra juice.
Should
> I let this ferment out (ML and remaining sugar), or is it safe to freeze
and
> use later for topping? Or, should I toss it down the drain? Any
> suggestions on what I should do with this little amount?

Let it finish fermenting and use it for topping wine. You'll probably need
more than that, as you will want to taste the wine during its development.
You'll also need some for fining trials, but by then you'll be breaking down
a carboy to smaller containers.

Tom S