Hi, I wonder if anyone here can help.

I started 2 5 gallon batches of elderberry / blackberry / forest
fruits following my normal recipe, but this time I have some American
Oak staves (the bag recommends 2 staves per 5 gallon batch but had no
other instructions). I put them in the primaries and it's sitting
overnight now to let the campden powder and pectic enzyme do their
thing before I balance the must and pitch.

I was just looking around the internet and realised that several
people say to add the staves post-fermentation and I started to
wonder:

Will I greatly affect the character and performance of the oak having
added it pre-fermentation instead of post?

In terms of spoilage, might there be a problem with the staves poking
up out of the must significantly (in the primary)?

I would be happy to take the staves out, wash, sanitise and dry them,
adding them post-ferment if there are likely to be issues, though I
suspect now that they are in, they are better staying in than being
messed with.

Can anyone offer me guidance on these questions please?

Many thanks!

jim c wrote:

> Hi, I wonder if anyone here can help.
>
> I started 2 5 gallon batches of elderberry / blackberry / forest
> fruits following my normal recipe, but this time I have some American
> Oak staves (the bag recommends 2 staves per 5 gallon batch but had no
> other instructions). I put them in the primaries and it's sitting
> overnight now to let the campden powder and pectic enzyme do their
> thing before I balance the must and pitch.
>
> I was just looking around the internet and realised that several
> people say to add the staves post-fermentation and I started to
> wonder:
>
> Will I greatly affect the character and performance of the oak having
> added it pre-fermentation instead of post?

No. You probably will not impart that much oak flavor unless you use them
post fermentation also though.
>
> In terms of spoilage, might there be a problem with the staves poking
> up out of the must significantly (in the primary)?

No.

>
> I would be happy to take the staves out, wash, sanitise and dry them,
> adding them post-ferment if there are likely to be issues, though I
> suspect now that they are in, they are better staying in than being
> messed with.

Relax, me thinks you worry too much.

>
> Can anyone offer me guidance on these questions please?
>
> Many thanks!

On Jan 29, 2:11*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
wrote:
> jim c wrote:
> > Hi, I wonder if anyone here can help.
>
> > I started 2 5 gallon batches of elderberry / blackberry / forest
> > fruits following my normal recipe, but this time I have some American
> > Oak staves (the bag recommends 2 staves per 5 gallon batch but had no
> > other instructions). *I put them in the primaries and it's sitting
> > overnight now to let the campden powder and pectic enzyme do their
> > thing before I balance the must and pitch.
>
> > I was just looking around the internet and realised that several
> > people say to add the staves post-fermentation and I started to
> > wonder:
>
> > Will I greatly affect the character and performance of the oak having
> > added it pre-fermentation instead of post?
>
> No. *You probably will not impart that much oak flavor unless you use them
> post fermentation also though.
>
>
>
> > In terms of spoilage, might there be a problem with the staves poking
> > up out of the must significantly (in the primary)?
>
> No.
>
>
>
> > I would be happy to take the staves out, wash, sanitise and dry them,
> > adding them post-ferment if there are likely to be issues, though I
> > suspect now that they are in, they are better staying in than being
> > messed with.
>
> Relax, me thinks you worry too much.
>
>
>
> > Can anyone offer me guidance on these questions please?
>
> > Many thanks!

Thanks Paul.

I do plan to keep them in post-fermentation also. I presume there is
no problem with that?

Jim

jim c wrote:

> On Jan 29, 2:11Â*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> wrote:
>> jim c wrote:
>> > Hi, I wonder if anyone here can help.
>>
>> > I started 2 5 gallon batches of elderberry / blackberry / forest
>> > fruits following my normal recipe, but this time I have some American
>> > Oak staves (the bag recommends 2 staves per 5 gallon batch but had no
>> > other instructions). Â*I put them in the primaries and it's sitting
>> > overnight now to let the campden powder and pectic enzyme do their
>> > thing before I balance the must and pitch.
>>
>> > I was just looking around the internet and realised that several
>> > people say to add the staves post-fermentation and I started to
>> > wonder:
>>
>> > Will I greatly affect the character and performance of the oak having
>> > added it pre-fermentation instead of post?
>>
>> No. Â*You probably will not impart that much oak flavor unless you use
>> them post fermentation also though.
>>
>>
>>
>> > In terms of spoilage, might there be a problem with the staves poking
>> > up out of the must significantly (in the primary)?
>>
>> No.
>>
>>
>>
>> > I would be happy to take the staves out, wash, sanitise and dry them,
>> > adding them post-ferment if there are likely to be issues, though I
>> > suspect now that they are in, they are better staying in than being
>> > messed with.
>>
>> Relax, me thinks you worry too much.
>>
>>
>>
>> > Can anyone offer me guidance on these questions please?
>>
>> > Many thanks!
>
> Thanks Paul.
>
> I do plan to keep them in post-fermentation also. I presume there is
> no problem with that?
>
> Jim
Not that I am aware of. Others opinions may vary. But as long as you do
not have a condition in which the wet staves were allowed air contact that
allowed breeding of undesireables, I would think it would be ok.

On Jan 29, 4:16*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
wrote:
> jim c wrote:
> > On Jan 29, 2:11*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> > wrote:
> >> jim c wrote:
> >> > Hi, I wonder if anyone here can help.
>
> >> > I started 2 5 gallon batches of elderberry / blackberry / forest
> >> > fruits following my normal recipe, but this time I have some American
> >> > Oak staves (the bag recommends 2 staves per 5 gallon batch but had no
> >> > other instructions). *I put them in the primaries and it's sitting
> >> > overnight now to let the campden powder and pectic enzyme do their
> >> > thing before I balance the must and pitch.
>
> >> > I was just looking around the internet and realised that several
> >> > people say to add the staves post-fermentation and I started to
> >> > wonder:
>
> >> > Will I greatly affect the character and performance of the oak having
> >> > added it pre-fermentation instead of post?
>
> >> No. *You probably will not impart that much oak flavor unless you use
> >> them post fermentation also though.
>
> >> > In terms of spoilage, might there be a problem with the staves poking
> >> > up out of the must significantly (in the primary)?
>
> >> No.
>
> >> > I would be happy to take the staves out, wash, sanitise and dry them,
> >> > adding them post-ferment if there are likely to be issues, though I
> >> > suspect now that they are in, they are better staying in than being
> >> > messed with.
>
> >> Relax, me thinks you worry too much.
>
> >> > Can anyone offer me guidance on these questions please?
>
> >> > Many thanks!
>
> > Thanks Paul.
>
> > I do plan to keep them in post-fermentation also. *I presume there is
> > no problem with that?
>
> > Jim
>
> Not that I am aware of. *Others opinions may vary. *But as long as you do
> not have a condition in which the wet staves were allowed air contact that
> allowed breeding of undesireables, I would think it would be ok.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I would just keep them wet. Next time maybe consider beans, they may
be easier to manage in a smaller volume ferment.

Joe

On Jan 30, 2:12*am, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
> On Jan 29, 4:16*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > jim c wrote:
> > > On Jan 29, 2:11*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> > > wrote:
> > >> jim c wrote:
> > >> > Hi, I wonder if anyone here can help.
>
> > >> > I started 2 5 gallon batches of elderberry / blackberry / forest
> > >> > fruits following my normal recipe, but this time I have some American
> > >> > Oak staves (the bag recommends 2 staves per 5 gallon batch but had no
> > >> > other instructions). *I put them in the primaries and it's sitting
> > >> > overnight now to let the campden powder and pectic enzyme do their
> > >> > thing before I balance the must and pitch.
>
> > >> > I was just looking around the internet and realised that several
> > >> > people say to add the staves post-fermentation and I started to
> > >> > wonder:
>
> > >> > Will I greatly affect the character and performance of the oak having
> > >> > added it pre-fermentation instead of post?
>
> > >> No. *You probably will not impart that much oak flavor unless you use
> > >> them post fermentation also though.
>
> > >> > In terms of spoilage, might there be a problem with the staves poking
> > >> > up out of the must significantly (in the primary)?
>
> > >> No.
>
> > >> > I would be happy to take the staves out, wash, sanitise and dry them,
> > >> > adding them post-ferment if there are likely to be issues, though I
> > >> > suspect now that they are in, they are better staying in than being
> > >> > messed with.
>
> > >> Relax, me thinks you worry too much.
>
> > >> > Can anyone offer me guidance on these questions please?
>
> > >> > Many thanks!
>
> > > Thanks Paul.
>
> > > I do plan to keep them in post-fermentation also. *I presume there is
> > > no problem with that?
>
> > > Jim
>
> > Not that I am aware of. *Others opinions may vary. *But as long as you do
> > not have a condition in which the wet staves were allowed air contact that
> > allowed breeding of undesireables, I would think it would be ok.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I would just keep them wet. *Next time maybe consider beans, they may
> be easier to manage in a smaller volume ferment.
>
> Joe

Agreed, thanks Joe. I'm hoping the staves fit in my better bottles,
it will be tight, but I think they will. I have a variety of imported
American, french and Hungarian cubes, flakes and chippings to
experiment with over the next year or so. These will be far more
convenient once I have another few straining bags in stock!

Thanks Paul too for the advice.

Jim

jim c wrote:

> On Jan 30, 2:12Â*am, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
>> On Jan 29, 4:16Â*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > jim c wrote:
>> > > On Jan 29, 2:11Â*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
>> > > wrote:
>> > >> jim c wrote:
>> > >> > Hi, I wonder if anyone here can help.
>>
>> > >> > I started 2 5 gallon batches of elderberry / blackberry / forest
>> > >> > fruits following my normal recipe, but this time I have some
>> > >> > American Oak staves (the bag recommends 2 staves per 5 gallon
>> > >> > batch but had no other instructions). Â*I put them in the primaries
>> > >> > and it's sitting overnight now to let the campden powder and
>> > >> > pectic enzyme do their thing before I balance the must and pitch.
>>
>> > >> > I was just looking around the internet and realised that several
>> > >> > people say to add the staves post-fermentation and I started to
>> > >> > wonder:
>>
>> > >> > Will I greatly affect the character and performance of the oak
>> > >> > having added it pre-fermentation instead of post?
>>
>> > >> No. Â*You probably will not impart that much oak flavor unless you
>> > >> use them post fermentation also though.
>>
>> > >> > In terms of spoilage, might there be a problem with the staves
>> > >> > poking up out of the must significantly (in the primary)?
>>
>> > >> No.
>>
>> > >> > I would be happy to take the staves out, wash, sanitise and dry
>> > >> > them, adding them post-ferment if there are likely to be issues,
>> > >> > though I suspect now that they are in, they are better staying in
>> > >> > than being messed with.
>>
>> > >> Relax, me thinks you worry too much.
>>
>> > >> > Can anyone offer me guidance on these questions please?
>>
>> > >> > Many thanks!
>>
>> > > Thanks Paul.
>>
>> > > I do plan to keep them in post-fermentation also. Â*I presume there is
>> > > no problem with that?
>>
>> > > Jim
>>
>> > Not that I am aware of. Â*Others opinions may vary. Â*But as long as you
>> > do not have a condition in which the wet staves were allowed air
>> > contact that allowed breeding of undesireables, I would think it would
>> > be ok.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> > - Show quoted text -
>>
>> I would just keep them wet. Â*Next time maybe consider beans, they may
>> be easier to manage in a smaller volume ferment.
>>
>> Joe
>
> Agreed, thanks Joe. I'm hoping the staves fit in my better bottles,
> it will be tight, but I think they will. I have a variety of imported
> American, french and Hungarian cubes, flakes and chippings to
> experiment with over the next year or so. These will be far more
> convenient once I have another few straining bags in stock!
>
> Thanks Paul too for the advice.
>
> Jim

One thing you could try is what I do with my old barrels.

Use oak spirals from barrel mill
http://thebarrelmill.com/

Screw a stainless eye screw into the bottom of a solid bung that fits our
better bottle and attach the oak spiral to the eye screw with stainless
steel wire. You can monitor the oakiness and remove the spiral when
satisfied. IMHO it is easier than adding chips to a straining bag and then
trying to remove the bag and chips.

On Jan 30, 5:05*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
wrote:
> jim c wrote:
> > On Jan 30, 2:12*am, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
> >> On Jan 29, 4:16*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> >> wrote:
>
> >> > jim c wrote:
> >> > > On Jan 29, 2:11*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> >> > > wrote:
> >> > >> jim c wrote:
> >> > >> > Hi, I wonder if anyone here can help.
>
> >> > >> > I started 2 5 gallon batches of elderberry / blackberry / forest
> >> > >> > fruits following my normal recipe, but this time I have some
> >> > >> > American Oak staves (the bag recommends 2 staves per 5 gallon
> >> > >> > batch but had no other instructions). *I put them in the primaries
> >> > >> > and it's sitting overnight now to let the campden powder and
> >> > >> > pectic enzyme do their thing before I balance the must and pitch.
>
> >> > >> > I was just looking around the internet and realised that several
> >> > >> > people say to add the staves post-fermentation and I started to
> >> > >> > wonder:
>
> >> > >> > Will I greatly affect the character and performance of the oak
> >> > >> > having added it pre-fermentation instead of post?
>
> >> > >> No. *You probably will not impart that much oak flavor unless you
> >> > >> use them post fermentation also though.
>
> >> > >> > In terms of spoilage, might there be a problem with the staves
> >> > >> > poking up out of the must significantly (in the primary)?
>
> >> > >> No.
>
> >> > >> > I would be happy to take the staves out, wash, sanitise and dry
> >> > >> > them, adding them post-ferment if there are likely to be issues,
> >> > >> > though I suspect now that they are in, they are better staying in
> >> > >> > than being messed with.
>
> >> > >> Relax, me thinks you worry too much.
>
> >> > >> > Can anyone offer me guidance on these questions please?
>
> >> > >> > Many thanks!
>
> >> > > Thanks Paul.
>
> >> > > I do plan to keep them in post-fermentation also. *I presume there is
> >> > > no problem with that?
>
> >> > > Jim
>
> >> > Not that I am aware of. *Others opinions may vary. *But as long as you
> >> > do not have a condition in which the wet staves were allowed air
> >> > contact that allowed breeding of undesireables, I would think it would
> >> > be ok.- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> > - Show quoted text -
>
> >> I would just keep them wet. *Next time maybe consider beans, they may
> >> be easier to manage in a smaller volume ferment.
>
> >> Joe
>
> > Agreed, thanks Joe. *I'm hoping the staves fit in my better bottles,
> > it will be tight, but I think they will. *I have a variety of imported
> > American, french and Hungarian cubes, flakes and chippings to
> > experiment with over the next year or so. *These will be far more
> > convenient once I have another few straining bags in stock!
>
> > Thanks Paul too for the advice.
>
> > Jim
>
> One thing you could try is what I do with my old barrels.
>
> Use oak spirals from barrel millhttp://thebarrelmill.com/
>
> Screw a stainless eye screw into the bottom of a solid bung that fits our
> better bottle and attach the oak spiral to the eye screw with stainless
> steel wire. *You can monitor the oakiness and remove the spiral when
> satisfied. *IMHO it is easier than adding chips to a straining bag and then
> trying to remove the bag and chips.

Thanks again for the info, I will have to do similar with the staves
in my secondary. Saying that I think they are just tall enough to
poke out above the top of the wine in the airspace in the neck of the
BB

On Jan 31, 4:55*am, jim c > wrote:
> On Jan 30, 5:05*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > jim c wrote:
> > > On Jan 30, 2:12*am, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
> > >> On Jan 29, 4:16*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> > >> wrote:
>
> > >> > jim c wrote:
> > >> > > On Jan 29, 2:11*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> > >> > > wrote:
> > >> > >> jim c wrote:
> > >> > >> > Hi, I wonder if anyone here can help.
>
> > >> > >> > I started 2 5 gallon batches of elderberry / blackberry / forest
> > >> > >> > fruits following my normal recipe, but this time I have some
> > >> > >> > American Oak staves (the bag recommends 2 staves per 5 gallon
> > >> > >> > batch but had no other instructions). *I put them in the primaries
> > >> > >> > and it's sitting overnight now to let the campden powder and
> > >> > >> > pectic enzyme do their thing before I balance the must and pitch.
>
> > >> > >> > I was just looking around the internet and realised that several
> > >> > >> > people say to add the staves post-fermentation and I started to
> > >> > >> > wonder:
>
> > >> > >> > Will I greatly affect the character and performance of the oak
> > >> > >> > having added it pre-fermentation instead of post?
>
> > >> > >> No. *You probably will not impart that much oak flavor unless you
> > >> > >> use them post fermentation also though.
>
> > >> > >> > In terms of spoilage, might there be a problem with the staves
> > >> > >> > poking up out of the must significantly (in the primary)?
>
> > >> > >> No.
>
> > >> > >> > I would be happy to take the staves out, wash, sanitise and dry
> > >> > >> > them, adding them post-ferment if there are likely to be issues,
> > >> > >> > though I suspect now that they are in, they are better staying in
> > >> > >> > than being messed with.
>
> > >> > >> Relax, me thinks you worry too much.
>
> > >> > >> > Can anyone offer me guidance on these questions please?
>
> > >> > >> > Many thanks!
>
> > >> > > Thanks Paul.
>
> > >> > > I do plan to keep them in post-fermentation also. *I presume there is
> > >> > > no problem with that?
>
> > >> > > Jim
>
> > >> > Not that I am aware of. *Others opinions may vary. *But as long as you
> > >> > do not have a condition in which the wet staves were allowed air
> > >> > contact that allowed breeding of undesireables, I would think it would
> > >> > be ok.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > >> > - Show quoted text -
>
> > >> I would just keep them wet. *Next time maybe consider beans, they may
> > >> be easier to manage in a smaller volume ferment.
>
> > >> Joe
>
> > > Agreed, thanks Joe. *I'm hoping the staves fit in my better bottles,
> > > it will be tight, but I think they will. *I have a variety of imported
> > > American, french and Hungarian cubes, flakes and chippings to
> > > experiment with over the next year or so. *These will be far more
> > > convenient once I have another few straining bags in stock!
>
> > > Thanks Paul too for the advice.
>
> > > Jim
>
> > One thing you could try is what I do with my old barrels.
>
> > Use oak spirals from barrel millhttp://thebarrelmill.com/
>
> > Screw a stainless eye screw into the bottom of a solid bung that fits our
> > better bottle and attach the oak spiral to the eye screw with stainless
> > steel wire. *You can monitor the oakiness and remove the spiral when
> > satisfied. *IMHO it is easier than adding chips to a straining bag and then
> > trying to remove the bag and chips.
>
> Thanks again *for the info, I will have to do similar with the staves
> in my secondary. *Saying that I think they are just tall enough to
> poke out above the top of the wine in the airspace in the neck of the
> BB - Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I'm less meticulous with chips or beans, I just dump them in. When I
rack I just dump them into a funnel, rinse and return. I doubt they
do anything afte 2 weeks other than take up space but I don't see a
downside to keeping them in.

Joe

Joe