I was asked to explain how to distinguish
between a phenolic and an ester. I thought
my answer was so weak that I would rather
not repeat it.

I would appreciate reading the answers of
others.

Dick

IMHO esters are fruity and are the result of yeast fermentation. Phenols are
medicinal, bubblegum, plastic or chemical and are the result of fermentation
by other than yeast (Brettonomyces, pediococcus etc.etc.)
Steve
"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
...
>I was asked to explain how to distinguish
> between a phenolic and an ester. I thought
> my answer was so weak that I would rather
> not repeat it.
>
> I would appreciate reading the answers of
> others.
>
> Dick

On May 11, 9:44 am, (Dick Adams) wrote:
> I was asked to explain how to distinguish
> between a phenolic and an ester. I thought

I think when people take a sip of wine or mead and say "phenolic,"
they usually have noticed bitterness or astringency in the taste.
Tannins are a type of phenolic compound and can come from grape skin,
seeds, and oak.

Fruity smells are associated with esters, which can be be present in
the original must or be created during fermentation.

I can't help much if you're interested in the details of the
chemistry, though.

Erroll
http://www.washingtonwinemaker.com/blog/

> I wrote:
>> I was asked to explain how to distinguish
>> between a phenolic and an ester. I thought
>> my answer was so weak that I would rather
>> not repeat it.

Steve Peek replied:
> IMHO esters are fruity and are the result of
> yeast fermentation. Phenols are medicinal,
> bubblegum, plastic or chemical and are the
> result of fermentation by other than yeast
> (Brettonomyces, pediococcus etc.etc.)

First, it is important to note that ignorance is
the constant state of all life forms. So I should
not have been embarrassed by my ignorance.
My answer to the question was:

"As fermentation temperatures decrease fruity
esters increase and as condition fermentation
temperatures increase earthy increase. While
I can not adequately describe earthy esters, I
know the previous sentence is true. The only
description I can conjure up about phenolics is
they are tastes that don't belong there unless
the guidelines say they should be there."

So I probably should have asked "Other than the
cloves, bananas, and vanilla of Hefe-Weizen and
Belgian yeasts, how do you know a phenolic when
you meet one?"

Dick

"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
...
>> I wrote:
> So I probably should have asked "Other than the
> cloves, bananas, and vanilla of Hefe-Weizen and
> Belgian yeasts, how do you know a phenolic when
> you meet one?"
>
> Dick

I have taken it that Esters are fruity flavours produced by:
(a) particular strains of yeast where the particular estery flavour is
desirable such as wheat beers.
(b) where particular strains of yeast produces unacceptable fruity flavours
that are not supposed be present by fermenting at higher temperatures than
is recommended. Fruitiness in lagers for example are generally not
acceptable.

I have taken Phenolics to be tannins, an undesirable sensation of dryness
and astringency that is not acceptable in any beer style. I understand that
chlorine in the brewing water can bond with the phenols in the beer to form
chlorophenols but, I have not experienced this, I think it's a somewhat rare
fault.

Steve W (in Aus)

It is hard to describe a flavor or aroma in words. Fortunately, many
esters and phenols have flavors that strongly resemble foods or
substances that most people are already familiar with. For instance:

ISOAMYL ACETATE is an ester that smells like bananas or pears
ETHYL ACETATE is an ester that smells generally fruity, or in higher
concentrations like nail polish remover (because it is one)
PHENYLETHYL ACETATE is an ester reminiscient of roses or honey

These are common ones in beer, but there are others that generally
tend toward fruity, solventy, or even cheesy/sweaty. In my experience
the esters become much more apparent the warmer the beer gets.

Phenolics also can be related to other substances. Phenolics are a
very broad group of compounds--but I believe that when the word is
used commonly to describe tastes in beer, though, it's usually meant
to refer to phenolic compounds that create spicy or medicinal flavors:

4-VINYL-GUIACOL tastes like cloves or similar spices
4-VINYL-PHENOL can also be spicy
CHLOROPHENOLS taste medicinal (to me almost mouth-numbing)

General flavors in this group are spicy, peppery, smoky, or medicinal.

One way to learn these flavors is by tasting beers known to have
them. Of course fresh German hefeweizens are known for their banana
esters and clove phenols. Some readily available beers that are
estery without being phenolic are Fullers ESB or Youngs Special London
Ale (make sure they are fresh or the esters may be diminished). Beers
that are phenolic without being estery may be harder to come by. Some
witbiers may fit the bill, as will old German Hefeweizens that have
lost their banana esters. To me De Konnick is also pretty phenolic
when found on tap in the US, without lots of esters.

Hope that helps.

Baums

Seems to me that one of the problems here is the dfference is judgement
between beer-makers and wine-makers.

Esters are important to winemakers in that these include fermentation
created compounds that can be desirably fruity - or undesirably fruity.
I have no idea what, if any, role esters play in the tastes and
aromatics of beer.

But with phenols, winemaking and beermaking seem to diverge. Just the
other day I heard a beermaker, in a brew supply store, ranting to a
winemaking customer about how undesirable phenolics were. Beer makers
seem to wish to avoid the dry, astringent characteristics that ar
associated with certain of the phenol compounds. But winemakers need
certain phenolics - many of the armomatics, tannins, and flavanoid
compounds that we desire fall under the broader characterization of
"phenolics".





On 2008-05-11 09:44:38 -0700, (Dick Adams) said:

> I was asked to explain how to distinguish
> between a phenolic and an ester. I thought
> my answer was so weak that I would rather
> not repeat it.
>
> I would appreciate reading the answers of
> others.
>
> Dick

Is it safe to assume that esters have more to do with smell and
phenols have more to do with taste?

Bob

On May 12, 11:44*am, AxisOfBeagles > wrote:
> Seems to me that one of the problems here is the dfference is judgement
> between beer-makers and wine-makers.
>
> Esters are important to winemakers in that these include fermentation
> created compounds that can be desirably fruity - or undesirably fruity.
> I have no idea what, if any, role esters play in the tastes and
> aromatics of beer.
>
> But with phenols, winemaking and beermaking seem to diverge. Just the
> other day I heard a beermaker, in a brew supply store, ranting to a
> winemaking customer about how undesirable phenolics were. Beer makers
> seem to wish to avoid the dry, astringent characteristics that ar
> associated with certain of the phenol compounds. But winemakers need
> certain phenolics - many of the armomatics, tannins, and flavanoid
> compounds that we desire fall under the broader characterization of
> "phenolics".
>
> On 2008-05-11 09:44:38 -0700, (Dick Adams) said:
>
> > I was asked to explain how to distinguish
> > between a phenolic and an ester. *I thought
> > my answer was so weak that I would rather
> > not repeat it.
>
> > I would appreciate reading the answers of
> > others.
>
> > Dick

> wrote:
>Is it safe to assume that esters have more to do with smell and
>phenols have more to do with taste?

No. Both can be evident in aroma and flavor. In fact
I personally tend to notice phenols more readily in the
aroma than in the flavor.
--

Joel Plutchak "Beer doesn't stain, if it's a light pilsner."
$LASTNAME at VERYWARMmail.com - Sheldon Miller