Alright, I've got the first batch of Champagne bottled for several
months now. I pulled out a bottle to test how it was going- and was a
bit disappointed. Nose, taste- all was good (a bit sweeter than I was
shooting for but acceptable) except for one tiny thing: Not enough
bubbles.

There was barely any pressure on the bottle and a freshly poured glass
wouldn't even foam- although there was a bit 'tingly' sensation saying
dissolved CO2 was present, it isn't enough by far to make a good
sparkler.

SO, since I had already fed this as much yeast as possible (see
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.c...2c1c2292eff66c
) I don't want to pour the bottles out and try again.

I'm sure it's been done before but I'd like to know personal
experiences with adding solid CO2 to bottles after disgorgement. 1.8g
of solid CO2 works out to be 1L of CO2 at STP. If I wanted 9 atm of
pressure in the bottle (and thats insane) that would be 6.75 L of CO2,
or about 12g of solid CO2.

Now I'm not opposed to making hand grenades.... and I could test them
in small batches. I just want to be safe...

Suggestions?

Initial disclaimer: I have never intentionally produced a sparkling wine.
That being said, if you've got any residual yeast in there, have you
considered adding une petite dossage of priming sugar to a couple of bottles
(as homebrewers do.) Re-cork & wait 2 weeks and see what happens. If you're
using heavyweight glass with proper corkage & basketing, then bottle bombs
may be avoidable. This may be a safer, cheaper option. Then again, see
the 1st line... HTH regards, bob

> wrote in message
...
> Alright, I've got the first batch of Champagne bottled for several
> months now. I pulled out a bottle to test how it was going- and was a
> bit disappointed. Nose, taste- all was good (a bit sweeter than I was
> shooting for but acceptable) except for one tiny thing: Not enough
> bubbles.
>
> There was barely any pressure on the bottle and a freshly poured glass
> wouldn't even foam- although there was a bit 'tingly' sensation saying
> dissolved CO2 was present, it isn't enough by far to make a good
> sparkler.
>
> SO, since I had already fed this as much yeast as possible (see
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.c...2c1c2292eff66c
> ) I don't want to pour the bottles out and try again.
>
> I'm sure it's been done before but I'd like to know personal
> experiences with adding solid CO2 to bottles after disgorgement. 1.8g
> of solid CO2 works out to be 1L of CO2 at STP. If I wanted 9 atm of
> pressure in the bottle (and thats insane) that would be 6.75 L of CO2,
> or about 12g of solid CO2.
>
> Now I'm not opposed to making hand grenades.... and I could test them
> in small batches. I just want to be safe...
>
> Suggestions?

On Jan 20, 2:14 pm, wrote:
> Alright, I've got the first batch of Champagne bottled for several
> months now. I pulled out a bottle to test how it was going- and was a
> bit disappointed. Nose, taste- all was good (a bit sweeter than I was
> shooting for but acceptable) except for one tiny thing: Not enough
> bubbles.
>
> There was barely any pressure on the bottle and a freshly poured glass
> wouldn't even foam- although there was a bit 'tingly' sensation saying
> dissolved CO2 was present, it isn't enough by far to make a good
> sparkler.
>
> SO, since I had already fed this as much yeast as possible (seehttp://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.winemaking/browse_thread/th...
> ) I don't want to pour the bottles out and try again.
>
> I'm sure it's been done before but I'd like to know personal
> experiences with adding solid CO2 to bottles after disgorgement. 1.8g
> of solid CO2 works out to be 1L of CO2 at STP. If I wanted 9 atm of
> pressure in the bottle (and thats insane) that would be 6.75 L of CO2,
> or about 12g of solid CO2.
>
> Now I'm not opposed to making hand grenades.... and I could test them
> in small batches. I just want to be safe...
>
> Suggestions?

I don't think that is the right way to go, if you do 90 PSIG is max,
60 is safer.

Champagne yeast isn't for secondary, sprinkling the EC1118 was
probably an issue too. I think you filtered out the nutrients when
you sterile filtered, you may want to make a new starter with EC1118
at at least 1 gram per gallon and a nutrient load near max for
whatever you use. If you mix up a cup and inject it into the opened
bottles you could airlock one to ensure activity. It will start in a
day or it won't...

The possible problem with the dry ice is twofold. The bottle probably
won't crack but it's thick and thick glass hates temperature
variations across the thickness. The main one is you won't get any
creaminess from dead yeast with a quick carbonation.

I had a mead like yours but wines always seem to go fine for me. I
use Seyval for the base and want a long time on the yeast, I like old
sparklers, not the tart young ones.
Joe

Solid CO2 is much too dangerous. Don't do it !!

The following is pure SWAG, so take it with a grain of salt.

I read this and the google link, and no where do you mention
the acid or alcohol levels in the base wine that you used. I
think maybe the alcohol was too high in the base wine to
start with. Yeasts die when they hit their maximum alcohol
tolerance.

To make sparklers, you gotta start with a still dry wine that is
low(er) in both acid and alcohol than you would normally
have in a dry table wine. Low(er) acid because the second
ferment adds carbonic and you want the end product to be
balanced not "sharp". Low(er) alcohol because the second
ferment makes not only CO2 but also more alcohol !! If
_total_ alcohol reaches the max tolerence of the second
yeast before it can produce the necessary amount of
carbonization, it will die too soon and leave you with duds.

If my SWAG is correct, about all you can do now is to
buy a "Seltzer" bottle that uses CO2 cartridges and
carbonate each bottle as you open it. HTH

Frederick




> wrote in message
...
> Alright, I've got the first batch of Champagne bottled for several
> months now. I pulled out a bottle to test how it was going- and was a
> bit disappointed. Nose, taste- all was good (a bit sweeter than I was
> shooting for but acceptable) except for one tiny thing: Not enough
> bubbles.
>
> There was barely any pressure on the bottle and a freshly poured glass
> wouldn't even foam- although there was a bit 'tingly' sensation saying
> dissolved CO2 was present, it isn't enough by far to make a good
> sparkler.
>
> SO, since I had already fed this as much yeast as possible (see
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.c...2c1c2292eff66c
> ) I don't want to pour the bottles out and try again.
>
> I'm sure it's been done before but I'd like to know personal
> experiences with adding solid CO2 to bottles after disgorgement. 1.8g
> of solid CO2 works out to be 1L of CO2 at STP. If I wanted 9 atm of
> pressure in the bottle (and thats insane) that would be 6.75 L of CO2,
> or about 12g of solid CO2.
>
> Now I'm not opposed to making hand grenades.... and I could test them
> in small batches. I just want to be safe...
>
> Suggestions?

On Jan 22, 9:35*am, "frederick ploegman" >
wrote:
> Solid CO2 is much too dangerous. *Don't do it !!
>
> The following is pure SWAG, so take it with a grain of salt.
>
> I read this and the google link, and no where do you mention
> the acid or alcohol levels in the base wine that you used. *I
> think maybe the alcohol was too high in the base wine to
> start with. *Yeasts die when they hit their maximum alcohol
> tolerance.
>
> To make sparklers, you gotta start with a still dry wine that is
> low(er) in both acid and alcohol than you would normally
> have in a dry table wine. *Low(er) acid because the second
> ferment adds carbonic and you want the end product to be
> balanced not "sharp". *Low(er) alcohol because the second
> ferment makes not only CO2 but also more alcohol !! *If
> _total_ alcohol reaches the max tolerence of the second
> yeast before it can produce the necessary amount of
> carbonization, it will die too soon and leave you with duds.
>
> If my SWAG is correct, about all you can do now is to
> buy a "Seltzer" bottle that uses CO2 cartridges and
> carbonate each bottle as you open it. *HTH
>
> * * * * Frederick
>
> > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> > Alright, I've got the first batch of Champagne bottled for several
> > months now. *I pulled out a bottle to test how it was going- and was a
> > bit disappointed. *Nose, taste- all was good (a bit sweeter than I was
> > shooting for *but acceptable) except for one tiny thing: Not enough
> > bubbles.
>
> > There was barely any pressure on the bottle and a freshly poured glass
> > wouldn't even foam- although there was a bit 'tingly' sensation saying
> > dissolved CO2 was present, it isn't enough by far to make a good
> > sparkler.
>
> > SO, since I had already fed this as much yeast as possible (see
> >http://groups.google.com/group/rec.c...owse_thread/th...
> > ) I don't want to pour the bottles out and try again.
>
> > I'm sure it's been done before but I'd like to know personal
> > experiences with adding solid CO2 to bottles after disgorgement. *1.8g
> > of solid CO2 works out to be 1L of CO2 at STP. *If I wanted 9 atm of
> > pressure in the bottle (and thats insane) that would be 6.75 L of CO2,
> > or about 12g of solid CO2.
>
> > Now I'm not opposed to making hand grenades.... and I could test them
> > in small batches. *I just want to be safe...
>
> > Suggestions?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Good point on the alcohol, it should be 10 to 11% to start and be
dry. I go with higher, not lower acids though, I aim for 8g/l at
bottling. I leave mine on the sediment for years, usually at least
3. Temperature could also be an issue; it needs to be stress free for
the secondary. At least 70F is what I'm thinking, 75 would be better.

Joe

On Jan 22, 8:03*am, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
> On Jan 22, 9:35*am, "frederick ploegman" >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Solid CO2 is much too dangerous. *Don't do it !!
>
> > The following is pure SWAG, so take it with a grain of salt.
>
> > I read this and the google link, and no where do you mention
> > the acid or alcohol levels in the base wine that you used. *I
> > think maybe the alcohol was too high in the base wine to
> > start with. *Yeasts die when they hit their maximum alcohol
> > tolerance.
>
> > To make sparklers, you gotta start with a still dry wine that is
> > low(er) in both acid and alcohol than you would normally
> > have in a dry table wine. *Low(er) acid because the second
> > ferment adds carbonic and you want the end product to be
> > balanced not "sharp". *Low(er) alcohol because the second
> > ferment makes not only CO2 but also more alcohol !! *If
> > _total_ alcohol reaches the max tolerence of the second
> > yeast before it can produce the necessary amount of
> > carbonization, it will die too soon and leave you with duds.
>
> > If my SWAG is correct, about all you can do now is to
> > buy a "Seltzer" bottle that uses CO2 cartridges and
> > carbonate each bottle as you open it. *HTH
>
> > * * * * Frederick
>
> > > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > > Alright, I've got the first batch of Champagne bottled for several
> > > months now. *I pulled out a bottle to test how it was going- and was a
> > > bit disappointed. *Nose, taste- all was good (a bit sweeter than I was
> > > shooting for *but acceptable) except for one tiny thing: Not enough
> > > bubbles.
>
> > > There was barely any pressure on the bottle and a freshly poured glass
> > > wouldn't even foam- although there was a bit 'tingly' sensation saying
> > > dissolved CO2 was present, it isn't enough by far to make a good
> > > sparkler.
>
> > > SO, since I had already fed this as much yeast as possible (see
> > >http://groups.google.com/group/rec.c...owse_thread/th....
> > > ) I don't want to pour the bottles out and try again.
>
> > > I'm sure it's been done before but I'd like to know personal
> > > experiences with adding solid CO2 to bottles after disgorgement. *1.8g
> > > of solid CO2 works out to be 1L of CO2 at STP. *If I wanted 9 atm of
> > > pressure in the bottle (and thats insane) that would be 6.75 L of CO2,
> > > or about 12g of solid CO2.
>
> > > Now I'm not opposed to making hand grenades.... and I could test them
> > > in small batches. *I just want to be safe...
>
> > > Suggestions?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Good point on the alcohol, it should be 10 to 11% to start and be
> dry. *I go with higher, not lower acids though, I aim for 8g/l at
> bottling. *I leave mine on the sediment for years, usually at least
> 3. *Temperature could also be an issue; it needs to be stress free for
> the secondary. *At least 70F is what I'm thinking, 75 would be better.
>
> Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

If we go with Champagne as the source process, the temperature for the
secondary ferment is ideally cooler than that, basically a cellar
temperature (55 or so?). This is believed to result in better "bubble
characteristics" than warmer temps.

I posted this link before but here it is again - a great overall info
on the whole process:

http://www.ext.vt.edu/pubs/viticultu...7/463-017.html

Pp

On Jan 22, 1:02 pm, pp > wrote:
> On Jan 22, 8:03 am, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jan 22, 9:35 am, "frederick ploegman" >
> > wrote:
>
> > > Solid CO2 is much too dangerous. Don't do it !!
>
> > > The following is pure SWAG, so take it with a grain of salt.
>
> > > I read this and the google link, and no where do you mention
> > > the acid or alcohol levels in the base wine that you used. I
> > > think maybe the alcohol was too high in the base wine to
> > > start with. Yeasts die when they hit their maximum alcohol
> > > tolerance.
>
> > > To make sparklers, you gotta start with a still dry wine that is
> > > low(er) in both acid and alcohol than you would normally
> > > have in a dry table wine. Low(er) acid because the second
> > > ferment adds carbonic and you want the end product to be
> > > balanced not "sharp". Low(er) alcohol because the second
> > > ferment makes not only CO2 but also more alcohol !! If
> > > _total_ alcohol reaches the max tolerence of the second
> > > yeast before it can produce the necessary amount of
> > > carbonization, it will die too soon and leave you with duds.
>
> > > If my SWAG is correct, about all you can do now is to
> > > buy a "Seltzer" bottle that uses CO2 cartridges and
> > > carbonate each bottle as you open it. HTH
>
> > > Frederick
>
> > > > wrote in message
>
> > ...
>
> > > > Alright, I've got the first batch of Champagne bottled for several
> > > > months now. I pulled out a bottle to test how it was going- and was a
> > > > bit disappointed. Nose, taste- all was good (a bit sweeter than I was
> > > > shooting for but acceptable) except for one tiny thing: Not enough
> > > > bubbles.
>
> > > > There was barely any pressure on the bottle and a freshly poured glass
> > > > wouldn't even foam- although there was a bit 'tingly' sensation saying
> > > > dissolved CO2 was present, it isn't enough by far to make a good
> > > > sparkler.
>
> > > > SO, since I had already fed this as much yeast as possible (see
> > > >http://groups.google.com/group/rec.c...owse_thread/th...
> > > > ) I don't want to pour the bottles out and try again.
>
> > > > I'm sure it's been done before but I'd like to know personal
> > > > experiences with adding solid CO2 to bottles after disgorgement. 1.8g
> > > > of solid CO2 works out to be 1L of CO2 at STP. If I wanted 9 atm of
> > > > pressure in the bottle (and thats insane) that would be 6.75 L of CO2,
> > > > or about 12g of solid CO2.
>
> > > > Now I'm not opposed to making hand grenades.... and I could test them
> > > > in small batches. I just want to be safe...
>
> > > > Suggestions?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Good point on the alcohol, it should be 10 to 11% to start and be
> > dry. I go with higher, not lower acids though, I aim for 8g/l at
> > bottling. I leave mine on the sediment for years, usually at least
> > 3. Temperature could also be an issue; it needs to be stress free for
> > the secondary. At least 70F is what I'm thinking, 75 would be better.
>
> > Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> If we go with Champagne as the source process, the temperature for the
> secondary ferment is ideally cooler than that, basically a cellar
> temperature (55 or so?). This is believed to result in better "bubble
> characteristics" than warmer temps.
>
> I posted this link before but here it is again - a great overall info
> on the whole process:
>
> http://www.ext.vt.edu/pubs/viticultu...7/463-017.html
>
> Pp

Thanks Pp-

The wine was seeded back with nutrients after sterile filtration- DAP
was added, nutrient. Yeast was cultured in and then (in addition) was
sprinkled on. What I'm trying to say is there was no shortage of
yeasties to eat up the sugar.

The mouth feel of the wine/champagne is quite nice- it just doesn't
have bubbles. The yeast is present in the bidules in the caps- I've
been shaking every couple of weeks to get the sediment down the cone
into the top. The cellar maintains at 52F to 57F.

I did initially keep the wine at 70F to try and get it started... but
no go... and since I couldn't see any airlock activity I wasn't
certain if it was working or just very slowly. Very slowly seems to
be the resident theme.

I may pull a couple bottles, perhaps a case, for experimenting with.
I traveled too much this year and couldn't make my wine so no attempts
this year. We'll just let it age and see if it improves.

Thanks all.

On Jan 22, 9:37 pm, wrote:
> On Jan 22, 1:02 pm, pp > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jan 22, 8:03 am, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
>
> > > On Jan 22, 9:35 am, "frederick ploegman" >
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > Solid CO2 is much too dangerous. Don't do it !!
>
> > > > The following is pure SWAG, so take it with a grain of salt.
>
> > > > I read this and the google link, and no where do you mention
> > > > the acid or alcohol levels in the base wine that you used. I
> > > > think maybe the alcohol was too high in the base wine to
> > > > start with. Yeasts die when they hit their maximum alcohol
> > > > tolerance.
>
> > > > To make sparklers, you gotta start with a still dry wine that is
> > > > low(er) in both acid and alcohol than you would normally
> > > > have in a dry table wine. Low(er) acid because the second
> > > > ferment adds carbonic and you want the end product to be
> > > > balanced not "sharp". Low(er) alcohol because the second
> > > > ferment makes not only CO2 but also more alcohol !! If
> > > > _total_ alcohol reaches the max tolerence of the second
> > > > yeast before it can produce the necessary amount of
> > > > carbonization, it will die too soon and leave you with duds.
>
> > > > If my SWAG is correct, about all you can do now is to
> > > > buy a "Seltzer" bottle that uses CO2 cartridges and
> > > > carbonate each bottle as you open it. HTH
>
> > > > Frederick
>
> > > > > wrote in message
>
> > > ...
>
> > > > > Alright, I've got the first batch of Champagne bottled for several
> > > > > months now. I pulled out a bottle to test how it was going- and was a
> > > > > bit disappointed. Nose, taste- all was good (a bit sweeter than I was
> > > > > shooting for but acceptable) except for one tiny thing: Not enough
> > > > > bubbles.
>
> > > > > There was barely any pressure on the bottle and a freshly poured glass
> > > > > wouldn't even foam- although there was a bit 'tingly' sensation saying
> > > > > dissolved CO2 was present, it isn't enough by far to make a good
> > > > > sparkler.
>
> > > > > SO, since I had already fed this as much yeast as possible (see
> > > > >http://groups.google.com/group/rec.c...owse_thread/th...
> > > > > ) I don't want to pour the bottles out and try again.
>
> > > > > I'm sure it's been done before but I'd like to know personal
> > > > > experiences with adding solid CO2 to bottles after disgorgement. 1.8g
> > > > > of solid CO2 works out to be 1L of CO2 at STP. If I wanted 9 atm of
> > > > > pressure in the bottle (and thats insane) that would be 6.75 L of CO2,
> > > > > or about 12g of solid CO2.
>
> > > > > Now I'm not opposed to making hand grenades.... and I could test them
> > > > > in small batches. I just want to be safe...
>
> > > > > Suggestions?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > Good point on the alcohol, it should be 10 to 11% to start and be
> > > dry. I go with higher, not lower acids though, I aim for 8g/l at
> > > bottling. I leave mine on the sediment for years, usually at least
> > > 3. Temperature could also be an issue; it needs to be stress free for
> > > the secondary. At least 70F is what I'm thinking, 75 would be better.
>
> > > Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > If we go with Champagne as the source process, the temperature for the
> > secondary ferment is ideally cooler than that, basically a cellar
> > temperature (55 or so?). This is believed to result in better "bubble
> > characteristics" than warmer temps.
>
> > I posted this link before but here it is again - a great overall info
> > on the whole process:
>
> >http://www.ext.vt.edu/pubs/viticultu...7/463-017.html
>
> > Pp
>
> Thanks Pp-
>
> The wine was seeded back with nutrients after sterile filtration- DAP
> was added, nutrient. Yeast was cultured in and then (in addition) was
> sprinkled on. What I'm trying to say is there was no shortage of
> yeasties to eat up the sugar.
>
> The mouth feel of the wine/champagne is quite nice- it just doesn't
> have bubbles. The yeast is present in the bidules in the caps- I've
> been shaking every couple of weeks to get the sediment down the cone
> into the top. The cellar maintains at 52F to 57F.
>
> I did initially keep the wine at 70F to try and get it started... but
> no go... and since I couldn't see any airlock activity I wasn't
> certain if it was working or just very slowly. Very slowly seems to
> be the resident theme.
>
> I may pull a couple bottles, perhaps a case, for experimenting with.
> I traveled too much this year and couldn't make my wine so no attempts
> this year. We'll just let it age and see if it improves.
>
In my experience if it doesn't start it never will. My cellar varies
from 50 to 70 over a year. I use those higher temps to get it going,
then it goes in the cellar. I think this is a yeast issue. Champagne
yeast is not a good secondary fermenter and the EC1118 never got a
chance as I see it. Why not do a 4 bottle experiment? Grab a 3 liter
jug, hydrate EC1118 normally and add it, wait until you see activity
before re-bottling. I do 6 atmospheres. I don't know what you started
with as a base quantity to check the amount of sugar but from memory
24g/l =6 atmospheres.

Joe