What have you learned in your wine/mead making? Here are a few things
I've learned so far.

- Don't let the must set on the gross lees too long. H2S will result,
which is a devil to deal with. Fine lees aren't much of a problem.
- If you're aiming for a sweet wine or mead without the need to
backsweeten, make sure to chose a yeast with a low alcohol tolerance.
- Some yeasts are prone to H2S production, especially so if they are
unhappy. Montrachet is one example. I avoid these yeasts AND make sure
to add nutrients in any case.

What are your "lessons learned"?

Greg

On Jan 10, 12:07*pm, wrote:
> What have you learned in your wine/mead making? Here are a few things
> I've learned so far.
>
> - Don't let the must set on the gross lees too long. H2S will result,
> which is a devil to deal with. Fine lees aren't much of a problem.
> - If you're aiming for a sweet wine or mead without the need to
> backsweeten, make sure to chose a yeast with a low alcohol tolerance.
> - Some yeasts are prone to H2S production, especially so if they are
> unhappy. Montrachet is one example. I avoid these yeasts AND make sure
> to add nutrients in any case.
>
> What are your "lessons learned"?
>
> Greg

Again, all of that... In the other post I told you about the
experiment with hot bottling, that should be interesting. If I can do
this with cheap surgical tubing what a great alternative it would be
to using sorbates.

My meads always need fining, usually 2 to 3 times the amount of
bentonite as a typical white.

Sorbate is evil. It never seems to work out well for me. I don't
want to back sweeten because I don't make the sweets for myself,
others like them. I will come up with an alternative on way or
another that I can afford, I don't want to build a sterile filter for
10 gallons a year.


Joe

With respect to stabilization, especially of meads, I've found that
"time" is the best solution. Once a mead or wine has been bulk aging
for months with no signs of life, you can safely bottle without fear
of exploding bottles or making a dry sparkling wine. Still though,
you've piqued my interest with your hot bottling approach and I'm
anxious to hear how it works out for you.

Greg

Joe,

Have you tried sodium benzoate? I gave up on sorbate too, as I didn't
like the taste that was always detectable at necessary levels. The
benzoate is as close to tasteless at 250 ppm as makes no nevermind. I've
used it for a couple of years now on back sweetened whites with no
problems and rave reviews.

Mike McGeough


Joe Sallustio wrote:

>
> Sorbate is evil. It never seems to work out well for me. I don't
> want to back sweeten because I don't make the sweets for myself,
> others like them. I will come up with an alternative on way or
> another that I can afford, I don't want to build a sterile filter for
> 10 gallons a year.
>
>
> Joe

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On Jan 12, 11:25 pm, Mike McGeough > wrote:
> Joe,
>
> Have you tried sodium benzoate? I gave up on sorbate too, as I didn't
> like the taste that was always detectable at necessary levels. The
> benzoate is as close to tasteless at 250 ppm as makes no nevermind. I've
> used it for a couple of years now on back sweetened whites with no
> problems and rave reviews.
>
> Mike McGeough
>
> Joe Sallustio wrote:
>
> > Sorbate is evil. It never seems to work out well for me. I don't
> > want to back sweeten because I don't make the sweets for myself,
> > others like them. I will come up with an alternative on way or
> > another that I can afford, I don't want to build a sterile filter for
> > 10 gallons a year.
>
> > Joe
>
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Oh wow, my ears pricked up like guard dogs when you said that!

Is sodium benzoate 'health risk free' and easy to get hold of? I
never saw this in my Wine makers store here in the UK but that sounds
like an awesome option. I don't know why but I presumed that was a
chemical you'd find it hard to find for domestic use.

Jim

jim wrote:
<snip>
> Is sodium benzoate 'health risk free' and easy to get hold of? I
> never saw this in my Wine makers store here in the UK but that sounds
> like an awesome option. I don't know why but I presumed that was a
> chemical you'd find it hard to find for domestic use.
>
> Jim

No it is not risk free, it has been linked to problems in the UK and the
US with carbonated drinks, under certain conditions it can result in the
production of Benzine (highly carcinogenic),it reacts with ascorbic acid
(vitamin C) over time, so anything that is kept for any length of time
or at high temperature is lightly to pose a risk.
I personally would not use it at all.
Ben.

NB see:
http://www.beveragedaily.com/news/ng...ks-fda-benzene
for some more info.

On Jan 13, 12:27 pm, Ben > wrote:
> jim wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > Is sodium benzoate 'health risk free' and easy to get hold of? I
> > never saw this in my Wine makers store here in the UK but that sounds
> > like an awesome option. I don't know why but I presumed that was a
> > chemical you'd find it hard to find for domestic use.
>
> > Jim
>
> No it is not risk free, it has been linked to problems in the UK and the
> US with carbonated drinks, under certain conditions it can result in the
> production of Benzine (highly carcinogenic),it reacts with ascorbic acid
> (vitamin C) over time, so anything that is kept for any length of time
> or at high temperature is lightly to pose a risk.
> I personally would not use it at all.
> Ben.
>
> NB see:http://www.beveragedaily.com/news/ng...ks-fda-benzene
> for some more info.

Ahhh yes that rings some bells actually. Perhaps that is why I'd
assumed it was only available to industry here in the UK. I believe
Ribena started using it too which makes the stuff unusable for home
brewers, shame.

Luckily I prefer my wines dry or strong so I don't need to use sorbate
by and large, but perhaps it is still the best option available to me
if I need a stabiliser. Thanks for the heads up Ben, much
appreciated.

Jim

Ben wrote:
> jim wrote:
> <snip>
>> Is sodium benzoate 'health risk free' and easy to get hold of? I
>> never saw this in my Wine makers store here in the UK but that sounds
>> like an awesome option. I don't know why but I presumed that was a
>> chemical you'd find it hard to find for domestic use.
>>
>> Jim
>
> No it is not risk free, it has been linked to problems in the UK and the
> US with carbonated drinks, under certain conditions it can result in the
> production of Benzine (highly carcinogenic),it reacts with ascorbic acid
> (vitamin C) over time, so anything that is kept for any length of time
> or at high temperature is lightly to pose a risk.
> I personally would not use it at all.
> Ben.
>
> NB see:
> http://www.beveragedaily.com/news/ng...ks-fda-benzene
> for some more info.
Ben,

Thanks for your comment and the link. Here's the update on the FDA
study. It's been out since the summer.
http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/benzdata.html

I was and am aware of the possibility of Benzoate being degraded by
Ascorbic acid in the presence of copper or iron ions.

However, the amount of benzene produced in all but a few (high Ascorbic)
products is really quite small... only a few parts per Billion. It is
quite close to the average benzene levels in most cities. This also
compares to the OSHA safety standard for workplace air of 1 part per
_Million_, which is obviously a thousandfold higher. For that matter,
ordinary gasoline is about 1% benzene, roughly 10,000,000 times more,
and people use gas freely, breathing its fumes every time they fill the
car or mow the lawn. The known exposure to benzene from everyday sources
is far greater than any theoretical exposure from a few glasses of wine.

I ran some calculations on the possible exposure to benzene from my
wine. At 1 ppb,it's like a single drop of the stuff in 40,000 Liters of
wine. That's 180 standard 225 L barrels. Considering that I make about
75 Liters of sweet wine each year, I would have to drink it all myself
for the next 530 years to consume that much benzene. To get the
exposure that a cigarette smoker does, I'd have to drink all my wine for
the next 5,000 years. I don't think it's something even remotely worth
worrying about.

Bottom line? Sure, there's the possibility of a tiny amount of benzene
forming as a result of using Benzoate, but the risk associated with it
gets totally lost in the risks of everyday life. Considering what else
is in wine, this is quite insignificant, IMHO.

Thanks again for the input, but it I think needs to be kept in perspective.

Mike McGeough

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On Jan 12, 6:25*pm, Mike McGeough > wrote:
> Joe,
>
> Have you tried sodium benzoate? I gave up on sorbate too, as I didn't
> like the taste that was always detectable at necessary levels. The
> benzoate is as close to tasteless at 250 ppm as makes no nevermind. I've
> used it for a couple of years now on back sweetened whites with no
> problems and rave reviews.
>
> Mike McGeough
>
> Joe Sallustio wrote:
>
> > Sorbate is evil. *It never seems to work out well for me. *I don't
> > want to back sweeten because I don't make the sweets for myself,
> > others like them. *I will come up with an alternative on way or
> > another that I can afford, I don't want to build a sterile filter for
> > 10 gallons a year.
>
> > Joe
>
> *Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
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Mike,
Is that the level you use, 250 PPM? I assume this is like sorbate in
that the amount of residual sugar has no bearing on quantity if
benzoate used; is that correct?

Joe

On Jan 17, 4:00*am, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
> On Jan 12, 6:25*pm, Mike McGeough > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Joe,
>
> > Have you tried sodium benzoate? I gave up on sorbate too, as I didn't
> > like the taste that was always detectable at necessary levels. The
> > benzoate is as close to tasteless at 250 ppm as makes no nevermind. I've
> > used it for a couple of years now on back sweetened whites with no
> > problems and rave reviews.
>
> > Mike McGeough
>
> > Joe Sallustio wrote:
>
> > > Sorbate is evil. *It never seems to work out well for me. *I don't
> > > want to back sweeten because I don't make the sweets for myself,
> > > others like them. *I will come up with an alternative on way or
> > > another that I can afford, I don't want to build a sterile filter for
> > > 10 gallons a year.
>
> > > Joe
>
> > *Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > * * ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
> > ---------------------------------------------------------- * * * *
> > * * * * * * * *http://www.usenet.com
>
> Mike,
> Is that the level you use, 250 PPM? *I assume this is like sorbate in
> that the amount of residual sugar has no bearing on quantity if
> benzoate used; is that correct?
>
> Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

The info on using benzoate is rather sparse because it's not an
"official" agent like sorbate is, but I'd guess it's exactly like
sorbate in terms of sugar. Also, based on what I'd found online, I
tried to use a lower level - around 60-70ppm, but that wasn't enough.
As with sorbate, adding more after, when the wine started fermenting
(slowly) again, wasn't very productive. I'd still like to go under
250ppm, so I might do some more testing this year, but this time I'd
start with at least 150ppm.

Pp

Joe Sallustio wrote:

> Mike,
> Is that the level you use, 250 PPM? I assume this is like sorbate in
> that the amount of residual sugar has no bearing on quantity if
> benzoate used; is that correct?
>
> Joe

Joe,

It is. I did a lot of research in both the abstract Biological area and
in the practical area of the food industry, and came up with that number
in both. Some organisms are susceptible at lower levels, a rare few at
higher levels, but common yeasts & fungi & many bacteria are stopped by
levels in the 200-300 ppm range. A few commercial food applications are
considerably higher, but I could see no benefit in going higher for
winemakers. At the lower levels mentioned by Pp, the literature talks of
percentage effectiveness, but partial protection seemed pointless to me.

BTW Pp, even the 250ppm level isn't effective at stopping an active
ferment. I forgot to add the benzoate to a jug of my "sweet reserve"
juice 'til it was too late. When I did, it had no noticeable effect on
the yeast, which was probably 71-B. Refrigerated and settled, it did
stop and made a really nice sweet sparkler for immediate consumption.

Mike McGeough


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On Jan 17, 2:40*pm, Mike McGeough > wrote:
>
> BTW Pp, even the 250ppm level isn't effective at stopping an active
> ferment. I forgot to add the benzoate to a jug of my "sweet reserve"
> juice 'til it was too late. When I did, it had no noticeable effect on
> the yeast, which was probably 71-B. *Refrigerated and settled, it did
> stop and made a really nice sweet sparkler for immediate consumption.
>
> Mike McGeough
>

Yeah, that was my case too, only on finished wine. My general
procedure for sweeter whites is to stop the ferment by putting the
carboys outside into cold, racking, sulphiting and fining and leaving
outside until the wine clears, then filtering and adding benzoate/
sorbate and bringing back inside to check for activity. With the
60-70ppm level that I used last year, the ferment got going again, so
I had to take the wine out again and add some more benzoate and
actually some sorbate as well in the end. After all the additions, I
ended up with a higher total level than if I started with the 250ppm
in the first place. A good lesson overall.

After Lum's comments though, I'm starting a hunt for Actistab, that
one sounds even better...

Pp

- I didn't really need to buy a pressurized filter
- I didn't need to buy the #9 corks when I only have a hand corker. the #8s
would have gone in better and I'm not going to age my wine that long anyway
- the 30 bottle (6 gallon) kit wines make, at best, 27 bottles of wine

> wrote in message
...
>
>
> What have you learned in your wine/mead making? Here are a few things
> I've learned so far.
>
> - Don't let the must set on the gross lees too long. H2S will result,
> which is a devil to deal with. Fine lees aren't much of a problem.
> - If you're aiming for a sweet wine or mead without the need to
> backsweeten, make sure to chose a yeast with a low alcohol tolerance.
> - Some yeasts are prone to H2S production, especially so if they are
> unhappy. Montrachet is one example. I avoid these yeasts AND make sure
> to add nutrients in any case.
>
> What are your "lessons learned"?
>
> Greg
>
>
>

>- the 30 bottle (6 gallon) kit wines make, at best, 27 bottles of wine

Gee I get 29 1/2.

Steve

Oh yeah, I forgot one. If you get four winemakers together you get five
opinions on how to ferment wine.


> wrote in message
...
>
>
> What have you learned in your wine/mead making? Here are a few things
> I've learned so far.
>
> - Don't let the must set on the gross lees too long. H2S will result,
> which is a devil to deal with. Fine lees aren't much of a problem.
> - If you're aiming for a sweet wine or mead without the need to
> backsweeten, make sure to chose a yeast with a low alcohol tolerance.
> - Some yeasts are prone to H2S production, especially so if they are
> unhappy. Montrachet is one example. I avoid these yeasts AND make sure
> to add nutrients in any case.
>
> What are your "lessons learned"?
>
> Greg
>
>
>

> Oh yeah, I forgot one. If you get four winemakers together you get five
> opinions on how to ferment wine.

And the funny thing is they are all probably right. Wine makes itself
in spite of what we do to it.

Never overfill a carboy with must from fruit of any kind. Murphy's
Law states that "If there is one particle of solid material in the
carboy it will be light enough to balance on the foam and large enough
to plug the opening of the airlock. The result is similar to a
volcanic eruption, if it's really bad wine it would make a great You
Tube video...

Joe

On 1/10/2008 12:07 PM, wrote:
>
> What have you learned in your wine/mead making? Here are a few things
> I've learned so far.
[snipped]
> - Some yeasts are prone to H2S production, especially so if they are
> unhappy. Montrachet is one example. I avoid these yeasts AND make sure
> to add nutrients in any case.


Interesting. I love Montrachet for its predictable behavior and clean
fermentation profile. And I've never had H2S in any batch, much less
one where I used Montrachet.

I do use yeast nutrient where called for, but more often for meads than
wines where the grapes should be providing the nutrient necessary.


Cheers,
Ken

On Jan 12, 7:38 am, mail box > wrote:
>
> Interesting. I love Montrachet for its predictable behavior and clean
> fermentation profile. And I've never had H2S in any batch, much less
> one where I used Montrachet.

Well, it's supposed to be one of the most popular yeast strains, but I
tried it with two different batches and had H2S both times. I always
add yeast nutrient per the recipe. My kitchen smelled like rotten eggs
briefly. I racked early and I guess it blew off. The resulting wines
were ok.

Afterwards I read several descriptions of Montrachet which indicated
that H2S could be a problem. Maybe I'm in the minority.

Greg

I've learned that if I'm gonna share my wine, I need to make it with less
alcohol. Just for myself, I like to get my money's worth. :-)

Robert


> wrote in message
...
>
>
> What have you learned in your wine/mead making? Here are a few things
> I've learned so far.
>
> - Don't let the must set on the gross lees too long. H2S will result,
> which is a devil to deal with. Fine lees aren't much of a problem.
> - If you're aiming for a sweet wine or mead without the need to
> backsweeten, make sure to chose a yeast with a low alcohol tolerance.
> - Some yeasts are prone to H2S production, especially so if they are
> unhappy. Montrachet is one example. I avoid these yeasts AND make sure
> to add nutrients in any case.
>
> What are your "lessons learned"?
>
> Greg
>
>
>