I have posted here before and have learned many great things by following
the threads. I'm about to make my second batch of wine and I want to ask a
few specific questions first. I already purchased a juice kit before
completely planning this out, so I'm stuck with what I've got.

From a previous discussion I was planning to use a different yeast than what
came with the kit. I plan to order from MoreWine because I'm going to order
some green coffee and beer ingredients at the same time. Yah.. I'm a junky.
What yeast do you recommend for a cabernet? I have another kit that's a
tempranillo. What's a good yeast for that?

I plan to age this wine until it's ready. If that's 5 years so be it.
After fermentation is over should I bottle right away? Continue to age in a
secondary fermenter for a while and if so for how long?

I plan to use oak cubes. How much should I use for a 6 gallon kit?

It's my understanding these kits do not have enough preservatives for long
aging periods. What is the appropriate preservative to use, how much should
I use, and when do I add it?

The first batch I bottled has a ton of gunk in the bottom of each bottle and
it's hard to poor without getting it into the glass or decanter. With
homebrewing I would let the beer sit in a secondary fermenter for a month
and then siphon off the top to minimize this. Can I assume a similar
process for wine?

That's it I think. I'm looking forward to start stocking up our wine cellar
with properly aged wine so my wife and I can start drinking it.

Cheers,
Scott

SEE BELOW ANSWERS
..

..

Home of the
MOON RIVER BREWERY
and
DELANCO VINEYARDS


>
> From a previous discussion I was planning to use a different yeast than
> what came with the kit. I plan to order from MoreWine because I'm going
> to order some green coffee and beer ingredients at the same time. Yah..
> I'm a junky. What yeast do you recommend for a cabernet? I have another
> kit that's a tempranillo. What's a good yeast for that?


I would use Lavin RC212


> I plan to age this wine until it's ready. If that's 5 years so be it.
> After fermentation is over should I bottle right away? Continue to age in
> a secondary fermenter for a while and if so for how long?

Follow the KIT directions. Sounds like you did not follow on your 1st batch.
Ferment 1-2 weeks.. RACK witit 2 weeks.. add fining agents.. RACK off leave
a month or two..RACK and bulk age.


>
> I plan to use oak cubes. How much should I use for a 6 gallon kit?


Depends on what your tastes are start with 4-6 ounces AFTER you rack off
from "finning"


> It's my understanding these kits do not have enough preservatives for long
> aging periods. What is the appropriate preservative to use, how much
> should I use, and when do I add it?


ALL KITS have all what you need. Potisun metabisulfite is a good one to use



> The first batch I bottled has a ton of gunk in the bottom of each bottle
> and it's hard to poor without getting it into the glass or decanter. With
> homebrewing I would let the beer sit in a secondary fermenter for a month
> and then siphon off the top to minimize this. Can I assume a similar
> process for wine?

YES the more you rack the clearer the wine unless you filter


> That's it I think. I'm looking forward to start stocking up our wine
> cellar with properly aged wine so my wife and I can start drinking it.
>
> Cheers,
> Scott

"Scott Lindner" > wrote in message
. ..
>I have posted here before and have learned many great things by following
>the threads. I'm about to make my second batch of wine and I want to ask a
>few specific questions first. I already purchased a juice kit before
>completely planning this out, so I'm stuck with what I've got.

I guess I'm confused.
Why are you not using the ingredients in the kit or following their
directions?

I've made about 10 kits, and they're fine.

Scott you've already received some good comments from Tom. But I must
admit to sharing the same thoughts as Bob.

As a general rule, you make a kit by following the instructions. The
main exception is lengthening some of the time spans and bulk aging.

Some people add a little extra metabisulfite prior to bottling if they
are going to be aging the wine for 6 months or more.

Before I make too many suggestions, it would really help to know
exactly what kits we are talking about. Their are dozens of different
Cab Sauv kits on the market, and each one has different instructions,
clearing agents, etc. And none come packed with the most important
ingredient that a wine maker can add....time!!!

Finally, be careful with oak cubes. It is very easy to end up with an
over-oaked wine.

Steve

> Follow the KIT directions. Sounds like you did not follow on your 1st
> batch. Ferment 1-2 weeks.. RACK witit 2 weeks.. add fining agents.. RACK
> off leave a month or two..RACK and bulk age.

I followed the instructions perfectly. What makes you think I did not?


> ALL KITS have all what you need. Potisun metabisulfite is a good one to
> use

This kit clearly states in the instructions there are only enough
preservatives for no more than three months of aging and if I wanted to age
longer that I'd need to add more preservatives to it. That's straight from
the instructions that came with the kit. I didn't read that until in Step 4
of its instructions so I was already into the process.


> YES the more you rack the clearer the wine unless you filter

Excellent. Thanks.

Cheers,
Scott

> I guess I'm confused.
> Why are you not using the ingredients in the kit or following their
> directions?

I'm confused why so many people feel I'm not following the instructions.
What I've said was written directly in the instructions provided with the
kit. I followed the instructions perfectly.

> As a general rule, you make a kit by following the instructions. The
> main exception is lengthening some of the time spans and bulk aging.

The instructions for my first kit state there are not enough preservatives
for aging any longer than 3 months. When I tried the wine after three
months of aging I posted here to ask for questions to improve my home made
wine. My questions in the post you are responding to are directly based on
the results of all of the feedback from back then when I first called for
thoughts to improve homemade wine. So if you and the others have problems
with these questions, take it up with the experienced winemakers that
prompted me to ask those questions.

Scott

Since there is some confusion about why I'm asking questions about making
wine I am providing the reference thread that prompted me to ask these
questions.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.c...38f508b05f6e8c

If you have issues with why I'd do something different than the kit
specifies, take it up with the original authors in this thread.

Cheers,
Scott

On May 17, 8:15 am, "Scott Lindner" > wrote:
>
> I plan to age this wine until it's ready. If that's 5 years so be it.

Some kit wine will still be quite drinkable after 5 years but I don't
think that it will bonify much past 12 to 18 months after it's
conception.

> After fermentation is over should I bottle right away? Continue to age in a
> secondary fermenter for a while and if so for how long?

Not sure what you're kit instructions says, but normaly you do the
fermentation, rack and let sit for X week or month, rack again and
then either age or bottle.

>
> It's my understanding these kits do not have enough preservatives for long
> aging periods. What is the appropriate preservative to use, how much should
> I use, and when do I add it?

Sulfite is added prior to fermentation and/or right before bottling.
Since you are starting from a kit and have no idea how much sulfite is
already present in the must, I'd add just a little prior to bottling.

>
> The first batch I bottled has a ton of gunk in the bottom of each bottle and
> it's hard to poor without getting it into the glass or decanter. With
> homebrewing I would let the beer sit in a secondary fermenter for a month
> and then siphon off the top to minimize this. Can I assume a similar
> process for wine?

Yes. Racking and letting the wine sit for a period of time should
solved this problem. When making wine from grapes, I rack ~3 months
after crush, ~3 months later, once more if I added oak and right
before bottling. I do not clarify and my wines are clear with
sometimes a trace of sediments that is no more then what you'd find in
many commercial wines.

>
> That's it I think. I'm looking forward to start stocking up our wine cellar
> with properly aged wine so my wife and I can start drinking it.

Waiting 3 months after bottling should assure that the wine is ready
to drink. For some mysterious reason, 3 months seems to be the magic
time frame in winemaking

A good kit can yield a good wine when properly done. Take notes of
everything you do and start from there on your next batch. There's no
reason you can't make proper wine from a quality kit.

With that being said, the better kit wines that I've had could be rank
as "superior table wine" but not more. They can be quite satisfying if
drank as such but if you think that you can open up a bottle every 5
year for a couple of decades and find a wine that as gain complexity
and offers a whole new dimension then what it was 5 years ago, you'll
be disapointed and end up with a flat, lifeless alchoolic beverage at
some point.

>
> Cheers,
> Scott

Good luck,

Stefan Mazur

Scott,
So many people feel that you did not follow the instructions as
usually, when following the instructions that come with a kit; one
does not get a ton of gunk in the bottom of each bottle.

Guy

"Scott Lindner" > wrote in message
...
>> I guess I'm confused.
>> Why are you not using the ingredients in the kit or following their
>> directions?
>
> I'm confused why so many people feel I'm not following the instructions.
> What I've said was written directly in the instructions provided with the
> kit. I followed the instructions perfectly.
>
Hi Scott,

Perhaps it was these quotes from your original post:

"From a previous discussion I was planning to use a different yeast than
what came with the kit."
"I have another kit that's a tempranillo. What's a good yeast for that?"
"I plan to use oak cubes. How much should I use for a 6 gallon kit?"
"What is the appropriate preservative to use, how much should I use, and
when do I add it?"

All of the above have been answered by the instructions in every kit I
have seen.
I certainly can't speak for the community here but I think the general
feeling is that fiddling with a kit is fine -- provided you have made the
kit exactly per instructions as least once, then have some specific goal or
change to make.

Good luck,

Casey

OK, lets back up. First off, I don't make kits so take what I say
with a grain of salt. You are making dry wines if you are making cab
and tempranillo.

If the kit asks you to add sorbate, ditch that. It has no value if
the wine is dry. It's only in there as cheap insurance if the wine
didn't ferment fully.

I don't understand the 3 month comment. If you have a packet called
'sulfite' that usually has a heck of a lot of sulfite in it; a lot
more than you need to keep the wine 3 months. The right way to add
sulfite is by measuring the amount in the wine and adding to a level
that ensures protection. The right way to do that cost's around $300
which is a little steep for most of us. (An aeration/oxidation
apparatus is needed.). That said, the rule of thumb when bottling and
not measuring existing sulfite levels is 1/4 teaspoon potassium
metabisulfite (in a little water to dissolve) to 5 gallon of wine.
That is roughly 50PPM, unless your pH is higher than 3.6 that wine
will keep for years.

As to oak, you can use cubes instead of chips and I think you will be
happy with the result. Just don't add a lot all at once. Add 2
ounces/5 gallon and taste a week later. If it tastes the way you
want, stop. If not, add another ounce. The oak flavor subsides with
time so keep that in mind since your goal is to age the wine.

I think using different yeasts on a wine that is destined for aging
may or may not be worth doing. I'm not convinced yeast strain
contributes much to flavor after a year but could be wrong. As long
as the yeast fully ferments the wine I'm happy. I do use one strain
when i want to reduce acidity; 71B likes to eat a little malic acid.
I can't see you needing that in a good kit though.

Joe

Scott -
Generally, people get (and give) pretty good advice in this
group. I have to disagree a bit, though, with the recommendation to
use an alternate yeast on a kit. Tim Vandergrift (Tech. Svcs Mgr for
Winexpert, and a very knowledgeable guy) has described in other posts
some of the issues involved with this. The short version is "kits are
different." A specific yeast that works well on freshly-crushed
Syrah, for example, may just not work nearly as well on a Syrah kit.
Part of the reason is that the concentration of the juice in the kit-
making process changes some of the flavors and creates some chemicals
in the juice that the yeast need to be able to digest. Some yeasts
handle them just fine (e.g., Premier Cuvee). Others do not. Hence,
replacing a kit yeast with another yeast, even if that yeast variety
is recommended for the particular grape, is a chancy business. Tim
has described how his firm tests new kits with many different yeast
varieties (dozens, or more) in order to find the best ones. There
really is a lot of science, as well as wine-making smarts, that go
into kit development. Except in really extraordinary circumstances,
following the kit-maker's directions is likely to give you the best
result you can get, based on the ingredients you are starting from.

From your posts in other threads, it sounds as though you are
trying to produce a seriously tannic Cabernet Sauvignon. That's
probably going to be the hardest style or variety to do well from a
kit, as tannins just don't survive the kit-making process very well.
I think this conclusion is supported by the results (recently issued)
of the latest amateur winemaking competition held each year by
Winemaking magazine. In virtually every category, kits won far more
medals than wines made directly from grapes. The exceptions were
Cabernet Sauvignon and Zinfandel, where more medals were awarded to
wines made from grapes. In terms of the Gold and Silver medals,
Cabernet ran about 2:1 in favor of grapes as compared to kits. To
me, the results indicate that, in general, kit-wine quality has
improved a lot, to the point where kits compare favorably to wines
make directly from grapes, but that there are still a few styles /
varieties that just don't work as well with kit technology (yet).

If you do want to pursue a really high-end Cab. from a kit, there
were four that received enough medals to stand out from the
competition (IMHO, and in no particular order):

Cellar Craft Limited Release Cabernet Quartet (this was a one-time
kit; don't know if there are any left in circulation)
RJ Spagnols Cellar Classic Winery Series Cabernet Sauvignon
RJ Spagnols En Primeur Calfornia Coastal Cabernet Sauvignon
Winexpert Selection Estate Series Lodi Ranch 11 Cabernet Sauvignon

I have not made any of these kits, and there are very likely other
kits out there that might satisfy you. But these kits did well enough
that they seem to me to be promising candidates. You should also plan
on aging these wines for at least a year (or two) before you make any
final judgments on quality.

Best of luck --


Doug

> OK, lets back up. First off, I don't make kits so take what I say
> with a grain of salt. You are making dry wines if you are making cab
> and tempranillo.

Yah. My wife and I love very dry reds. A long time ago I asked on another
forum if it was possible to make the same quality of red wines that we enjoy
that are store bought. We enjoy what I would describe as the $12 -
$15/bottle range just to set the stage. Typically cabernets but we do enjoy
some of the Spainish and Italian reds as well.


> If the kit asks you to add sorbate, ditch that. It has no value if
> the wine is dry. It's only in there as cheap insurance if the wine
> didn't ferment fully.
>
> I don't understand the 3 month comment. If you have a packet called
> 'sulfite' that usually has a heck of a lot of sulfite in it; a lot

My memory is bad, it's 6 months. Here are the instructions for the first
kit I made which prompted me to post my first thread to understand why we
don't care for it:
http://www.winexpert.com/answerbox/f...eserve_Eng.pdf

> more than you need to keep the wine 3 months. The right way to add
> sulfite is by measuring the amount in the wine and adding to a level
> that ensures protection. The right way to do that cost's around $300
> which is a little steep for most of us. (An aeration/oxidation
> apparatus is needed.). That said, the rule of thumb when bottling and
> not measuring existing sulfite levels is 1/4 teaspoon potassium
> metabisulfite (in a little water to dissolve) to 5 gallon of wine.
> That is roughly 50PPM, unless your pH is higher than 3.6 that wine
> will keep for years.
>
> As to oak, you can use cubes instead of chips and I think you will be
> happy with the result. Just don't add a lot all at once. Add 2
> ounces/5 gallon and taste a week later. If it tastes the way you
> want, stop. If not, add another ounce. The oak flavor subsides with
> time so keep that in mind since your goal is to age the wine.
>
> I think using different yeasts on a wine that is destined for aging
> may or may not be worth doing. I'm not convinced yeast strain
> contributes much to flavor after a year but could be wrong. As long
> as the yeast fully ferments the wine I'm happy. I do use one strain
> when i want to reduce acidity; 71B likes to eat a little malic acid.
> I can't see you needing that in a good kit though.

I know from homebrewing that yeast can play a huge role in the final product
even when aged. However, those are ales yeast. I have no clue when it
comes to wine yeasts.

Thanks

Cheers,
Scott

One way to get tannins in a kit might be to buy some dark table
grapes, crush them, drink the juice and add the skins to the kit.
That way only the skins are contributing to flavor. Leave them in for
a a few weeks minimum, they should sink. Ed Goist did that with good
results.

Joe

> One way to get tannins in a kit might be to buy some dark table
> grapes, crush them, drink the juice and add the skins to the kit.
> That way only the skins are contributing to flavor. Leave them in for
> a a few weeks minimum, they should sink. Ed Goist did that with good
> results.

That's an interesting suggestion. I wonder though, if you're going through
that much effort why not go straight from grapes? I mean, is there a
benefit to this hybrid approach?

Scott

Scott:

Sorry that I (and others) jumped to the conclusion that you weren't
following the instructions. For example, I thought that WE
instructions were specific about how much K-meta to add.

Yes, if you are planning on aging a VR kit for length of time adding
extra meta-bisulphite is recommended. The WE Selections instructions
that I just checked online say 1/4 tsp K-meta per batch. Note this is
NOT true of all kits, and is not even true of all WE kits (extra meta
not required with WE Crushendo kits, I believe).

You still haven't mentioned, that I noticed, what brand the Cab and
Tempranillo are. Somebody else already mentioned that WE doesn't
recommend changing yeasts. I have read that wine yeast changes in
kits are noticable when the wine is young, but not after it has aged.

Steve

On May 18, 5:23 pm, "Scott Lindner" > wrote:
> > One way to get tannins in a kit might be to buy some dark table
> > grapes, crush them, drink the juice and add the skins to the kit.
> > That way only the skins are contributing to flavor. Leave them in for
> > a a few weeks minimum, they should sink. Ed Goist did that with good
> > results.
>
> That's an interesting suggestion. I wonder though, if you're going through
> that much effort why not go straight from grapes? I mean, is there a
> benefit to this hybrid approach?
>
> Scott

Yes and no, in general you should be able to make a better red wine
from grapes than from juice or a kit. It truly depends on the quality
of the raw ingredients each was derived from. A high quality kit
might make a better wine than mediocre grown grapes of the same
variety.

The initial quality of the wine grapes has much more to do with the
end result than anything else.

Joe

> Yes, if you are planning on aging a VR kit for length of time adding
> extra meta-bisulphite is recommended. The WE Selections instructions
> that I just checked online say 1/4 tsp K-meta per batch. Note this is
> NOT true of all kits, and is not even true of all WE kits (extra meta
> not required with WE Crushendo kits, I believe).

That's good to hear about the WE Crushendo kits. From what it sounds like,
I should start buying those kits because they include the grape skins.
Right?


> You still haven't mentioned, that I noticed, what brand the Cab and
> Tempranillo are. Somebody else already mentioned that WE doesn't
> recommend changing yeasts. I have read that wine yeast changes in
> kits are noticable when the wine is young, but not after it has aged.

Sorry about that. They are both Selection Limited Edition. I ordered them
from Northern Brewer.

Cheers,
Scott

Scott:

These are both high end kits from Winexpert. They do testing of
yeasts, and personally, I would NOT change the yeasts provided. Out
of interest what yeasts came with these kits (probabaly NOT EC-1118)?

Steve

On Sat, 19 May 2007 07:15:41 -0600, "Scott Lindner"
> wrote:

>Sorry about that. They are both Selection Limited Edition. I ordered them
>from Northern Brewer.
>
>Cheers,
>Scott
>

On Sat, 19 May 2007 07:15:41 -0600, "Scott Lindner"
> wrote:

>From what it sounds like,
>I should start buying those kits because they include the grape skins.
>Right?

Scott:

There are many people who feel that way. I have not (yet) made a
grape skin kit for myself. I have one sitting on the shelf to get
started soon. Reliable feedback says that I shouldn't expect to drink
it until well over a year from now (2 years actually).

On the other hand, I made a high quality Shiraz (no skins) that I was
drinking and very much enjoying about 8-9 months after it was started.
It was probably pretty good before then, but it was sitting in a
carboy.

Personally, I feel that there is a place for both skin & non-skin
kits. Just as there is a place for those that make kits from fresh
and/or frozen grapes (something I will probably never do).

Steve

On a quick note. Any wine shop can sell you "TANNIN" this can be added to
any wine if you want a more tannic wine.
Tom

--

Home of the
MOON RIVER BREWERY
and
DELANCO VINEYARDS


"Scott Lindner" > wrote in message
. ..
>> Yes, if you are planning on aging a VR kit for length of time adding
>> extra meta-bisulphite is recommended. The WE Selections instructions
>> that I just checked online say 1/4 tsp K-meta per batch. Note this is
>> NOT true of all kits, and is not even true of all WE kits (extra meta
>> not required with WE Crushendo kits, I believe).
>
> That's good to hear about the WE Crushendo kits. From what it sounds
> like, I should start buying those kits because they include the grape
> skins. Right?
>
>
>> You still haven't mentioned, that I noticed, what brand the Cab and
>> Tempranillo are. Somebody else already mentioned that WE doesn't
>> recommend changing yeasts. I have read that wine yeast changes in
>> kits are noticable when the wine is young, but not after it has aged.
>
> Sorry about that. They are both Selection Limited Edition. I ordered
> them from Northern Brewer.
>
> Cheers,
> Scott
>