Hi all,

My Pinot Noir has just completed primary fermentation, been pressed,
and is now settling out in several carboys. A healthy amount (1-1.5"
deep) of lees are visible at the bottom of each carboy.

Most of this is gross lees, some of it is yeast.

I haven't pitched in the MLF culture yet, and am waiting until I figure
out whether I need to rack the wine off the gross lees (to a fresh
carboy) or not. Lots of information in books, online, and this n.g.,
which offer advice either way -- would be nice to read a clear opinion
or two so I could figure out which way I want to go.

Thanks in advance,

David

"David" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hi all,
>
> My Pinot Noir has just completed primary fermentation, been pressed,
> and is now settling out in several carboys. A healthy amount (1-1.5"
> deep) of lees are visible at the bottom of each carboy.
>
> Most of this is gross lees, some of it is yeast.
>
> I haven't pitched in the MLF culture yet, and am waiting until I figure
> out whether I need to rack the wine off the gross lees (to a fresh
> carboy) or not. Lots of information in books, online, and this n.g.,
> which offer advice either way -- would be nice to read a clear opinion
> or two so I could figure out which way I want to go.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> David

David,

I don't think you will get a "Clear" opinion. Everyone has their opinions
and I don't know if there is a iron clad "Truth" on this subject. I have
already posted my opinion. I rack off the gross lees a day or at most two
days after pressing.

Some say this hinders malo lactic fermentation but my reasoning is that the
malo lactic you get from NOT racking early MAY be a naturally occuring malo
lactic from the culture on the grapes which may or may not be as good as the
culture you buy expressly for ML. This is sort of like the arguement of
using cultured yeast or the natural yeast on the grapes.

I am sure you are aware that there are nutrients that you can buy for ML. I
personally think this is a better approach (early racking and then adding ML
and a nutrient) than letting the wine sit on gunk. Also, racking early does
not eliminate the finer lees. They are still going to precipitate and be
there for you. The fine lees possibly serve as a nutrient for ML and also
provide beneficial flavours to the wine. Pressing early also, in my
opinion, eliminates much of the risk of stinky wine later on.

According to a couple of authors (Iverson and Cox) typically you press
at some point when fermentation is slowing down. Then you transfer the
wine to a carboy with an airlock and you allow the fermentation to
continue in the carboy, and you rack off the lees as soon as the
fermentation is finished.

David wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> My Pinot Noir has just completed primary fermentation, been pressed,
> and is now settling out in several carboys. A healthy amount (1-1.5"
> deep) of lees are visible at the bottom of each carboy.
>
> Most of this is gross lees, some of it is yeast.
>
> I haven't pitched in the MLF culture yet, and am waiting until I figure
> out whether I need to rack the wine off the gross lees (to a fresh
> carboy) or not. Lots of information in books, online, and this n.g.,
> which offer advice either way -- would be nice to read a clear opinion
> or two so I could figure out which way I want to go.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> David

IMHO, you are begging two different questions here; should I rack the wine
off of the gross lees?, and, When should I start MLF?

I think you raised thee before so I'll risk repeating myself, but here is my
$.02 worth;

* If there are a lot of gross lees (as opposed to fine), rack it. You'll
reduce the potential of H2S.
* I would argue that you should pitch your ML bacteria back early in the
primary fermentation (higher alcohol can inhibit / slow down MLF). But
seeing as you haven't yet, I'd recommend getting it in ASAP - regardless of
the answer to #1 above.

good luck!



> Hi all,
>
> My Pinot Noir has just completed primary fermentation, been pressed,
> and is now settling out in several carboys. A healthy amount (1-1.5"
> deep) of lees are visible at the bottom of each carboy.
>
> Most of this is gross lees, some of it is yeast.
>
> I haven't pitched in the MLF culture yet, and am waiting until I figure
> out whether I need to rack the wine off the gross lees (to a fresh
> carboy) or not. Lots of information in books, online, and this n.g.,
> which offer advice either way -- would be nice to read a clear opinion
> or two so I could figure out which way I want to go.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> David
>

On Oct 23, 5:27 am, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>
> Some say this hinders malo lactic fermentation but my reasoning is that the
> malo lactic you get from NOT racking early MAY be a naturally occuring malo
> lactic from the culture on the grapes which may or may not be as good as the
> culture you buy expressly for ML. This is sort of like the arguement of
> using cultured yeast or the natural yeast on the grapes.
>

I think the concern here might be that the additional air exposure
could stop any MLF from completion, not just natural. I\ve always used
ML cultures on my reds and about 1/3-1/2 of the times, the MLF got
stuck during pressing and racking from the gross lees, and I had to
reinoculate. This typically happens on high alcohol reds, so there is
that factor, and there is a lot of air exposure during pressing, so
it's not clear whether racking after makes things significantly worse,
but it certainly makes the environment more hostile for the bacteria.
So it's usually a balancing act, taking into account the sugar levels,
how clean the ferment was, when the wine was pressed, etc., all these
factor into the decision when to do the first racking. Plus I've
switched to a more alcohol tolerant culture that has a better chance of
completion in the primary, and the results have been good so far.

One other thing that doesn't apply in this case but that bit me in the
past - if the wine is pressed before it's dry and then racked off the
gross lees in a matter of days, it can get stuck. As Franco said, I'd
let it first go to dryness before any racking, monitoring for
off-smells in the carboys.

Pp

Hi Ric,

> IMHO, you are begging two different questions here; should I rack the wine
> off of the gross lees?, and, When should I start MLF?

Primarily, the question was whether to rack off the gross lees (of
which there weren't any), so I have left them in the carboys and begun
MLF.

> * If there are a lot of gross lees (as opposed to fine), rack it. You'll
> reduce the potential of H2S.

There's a lot of fine lees. I was really surprised just how clean 90%
of the wine was flowing out of the press (most was hand-pressed). By
the time I got to the end, very little gross lees found their way into
the carboys.


> * I would argue that you should pitch your ML bacteria back early in the
> primary fermentation (higher alcohol can inhibit / slow down MLF). But
> seeing as you haven't yet, I'd recommend getting it in ASAP - regardless of
> the answer to #1 above.

Pitching an ML early on for Pinot is a stylistic choice. Some say do it
early, some day do it once dry, others say wait until after pressing,
etc. I've chosen Wyeast's MLF, which seems very tolerant of conditions,
alcohol, temperature, etc., and pitched it. From their web site:

http://www.wyeastlab.com/hvino/homewprlist.htm
Fresh liquid cultures of L. oenos ER1A and EY2D provide rapid and
complete malic acid to lactic acid reduction to balance and soften
wines. ER1A and EY2D perform well in conditions of low pH and cool
cellaring. Typical conditions of high wine acidity can be improved by
reducing the harsh, sharp malic acid in the wine to the softer and
smoother lactic acid. Other flavor improvements including vanilla and
buttery notes can be anticipated. Natural occurring malic acid bacteria
on fruit may be of inferior quality or quantity to complete malo-lactic
fermentation. Vinter's ChoiceTM malo-lactic cultures are suitable of pH
2.9 or greater and cellar temperatures as low as 55o F."

Thanks,

David

Unless I misread the wyeastlab blurb that you posted, I don;'t think they
are laying claim to their ML bacteria doing better than any other in higher
alcohol. IMHO, the pitching of MLF earlier rather than later is not so much
stylistic as it is practical; ML bacteria are pretty sensitive to their
environment; one of those environmental factors is alcohol level. In my own
experience MLF happens more quickly, and more consistently thorough, when
pitched earlier. When I have waited to after most of the primary
fermentation is complete, I have found it takes longer for MLF to complete.

Have you got access to a lab - or a paper chromatography kit? You'll need
such when it comes time to verify that the malic acid is gone.



> Hi Ric,
>
>> IMHO, you are begging two different questions here; should I rack the
>> wine
>> off of the gross lees?, and, When should I start MLF?
>
> Primarily, the question was whether to rack off the gross lees (of
> which there weren't any), so I have left them in the carboys and begun
> MLF.
>
>> * If there are a lot of gross lees (as opposed to fine), rack it. You'll
>> reduce the potential of H2S.
>
> There's a lot of fine lees. I was really surprised just how clean 90%
> of the wine was flowing out of the press (most was hand-pressed). By
> the time I got to the end, very little gross lees found their way into
> the carboys.
>
>
>> * I would argue that you should pitch your ML bacteria back early in the
>> primary fermentation (higher alcohol can inhibit / slow down MLF). But
>> seeing as you haven't yet, I'd recommend getting it in ASAP - regardless
>> of
>> the answer to #1 above.
>
> Pitching an ML early on for Pinot is a stylistic choice. Some say do it
> early, some day do it once dry, others say wait until after pressing,
> etc. I've chosen Wyeast's MLF, which seems very tolerant of conditions,
> alcohol, temperature, etc., and pitched it. From their web site:
>
> http://www.wyeastlab.com/hvino/homewprlist.htm
> Fresh liquid cultures of L. oenos ER1A and EY2D provide rapid and
> complete malic acid to lactic acid reduction to balance and soften
> wines. ER1A and EY2D perform well in conditions of low pH and cool
> cellaring. Typical conditions of high wine acidity can be improved by
> reducing the harsh, sharp malic acid in the wine to the softer and
> smoother lactic acid. Other flavor improvements including vanilla and
> buttery notes can be anticipated. Natural occurring malic acid bacteria
> on fruit may be of inferior quality or quantity to complete malo-lactic
> fermentation. Vinter's ChoiceTM malo-lactic cultures are suitable of pH
> 2.9 or greater and cellar temperatures as low as 55o F."
>
> Thanks,
>
> David
>

> Unless I misread the wyeastlab blurb that you posted, I don;'t think they
> are laying claim to their ML bacteria doing better than any other in higher
> alcohol.

You're right. I was most interested in the fact their cultures work
well even down to 55F, something important for those of us carrying out
MLF in a cold autumn garage. I have a space heater keeping the place at
65F, and may push it a little further, but this should be good for now.


> IMHO, the pitching of MLF earlier rather than later is not so much
> stylistic as it is practical; ML bacteria are pretty sensitive to their
> environment; one of those environmental factors is alcohol level. In my own
> experience MLF happens more quickly, and more consistently thorough, when
> pitched earlier. When I have waited to after most of the primary
> fermentation is complete, I have found it takes longer for MLF to complete.

Yes, you are right about that too. One reason I wanted to hold off on
MLF was to see where TA was at following completion of primary ferment.
One of the challenges with this batch was the sheer amount of Potassium
that upped the pH, which I countered through addition of Tartaric, but
which had left me with a TA of about .95%. For the simple reason a lot
of variables are at play (and drawing on poor results in prior years
when I just threw it all together at once), I wanted to take a little
more time this year see each process out to completion, even if that
would mean having to wait a little longer than normal for MLF to finish
(due to higher alcohol content and lower temperatures).


> Have you got access to a lab - or a paper chromatography kit? You'll need
> such when it comes time to verify that the malic acid is gone.

I've got something a little better.. AccuVin, out of Corvallis, Oregon,
produces specific little kits for a variety of tests... free SO2,
Malic, Lactic, etc... you take a small sample and soak a test strip,
and the resulting color is checked against a color graph. At least for
Malic content, I have more faith in this than the chromatography kit,
which to me shows a rough relationship of Tartaric to Malic to Lactic,
but no specifics.

At the moment I initiated MLF today, Malic was at 300mg/L. All I have
to do is take a simple few drops of a sample from each of the carboys
to see where MLF is at in each. As soon as the test kit shows it's
below 30mg/L, I should be good to go.

I suppose this aspect - chromatography or the AccuVin system - is a
matter of preference. For me, it seems AccuVin is more accurate than
chromatography, because I'll have some relative numbers to work with,
and not have to rely on interpreting the paper to know if there's a lot
of Malic left, some, just a little, or none...

Thanks,

David